Lively Case Discussion #637 6/8 - 6/10/2007

[oldfart]

Buckeye
I was correct about something What was it ?

Sorry... I have a headache the size of Dompigs belly today  and I never  get headaches

[Buckeye]

Buckeye
I was correct about something What was it ?

Sorry... I have a headache the size of Dompigs belly today  and I never  get headaches

You noticed that in the early statements they were asked about Fisherman Huts (when the story was supposed to be HI). You questioned whether Joran's witness statement mentioned that or why would they ask.  I think the first statement did.  I think Paulus knew from day one that Joran was alone with Natalee or at least he said he was.

[Anna]

In one of his PV's, Paulua also admits he knew Joran was going out gambling that night yet when Beth & Friends arrived, he pretended to be so surprised!

 

[Anna]

I agree that it would seem Joran must have changed from HI to Fisherman's Hut in just about his first statement after arrest for the cops
to be asking the Kalpoes about it.

The rumor was supposed to be because of that Jerry Strawberry look alike   that had grabbed the American tourist in that area before.  But I think Joran changed it from HI to FH to make it look like the Kalpoes were lying by not saying FH the way he was saying it.

Strawberry must be the one scubajap kept saying was questioned about that six times do you think?  No arrests of course, it was just an American tourist and everybody knows they go jogging early in the morning just to get grabbed and raped or something.  (sarcasm on)

And I further think Joran may have planted somebody's shoes at the FH to back up HIS version of events on his walk from the Racquet Club the next day, Monday.  That would frame the Kalpoes and give him some actual physical evidence he was there except somebody maybe Boeti, ha ha, stole the shoes and messed up his frame up job.  Just my opinion and I certainly do NOT want to start the shoe discussion again.  We all know how Robots gets about that!  

   

.

[Anna]

Buckeye
I was correct about something What was it ?

Sorry... I have a headache the size of Dompigs belly today  and I never  get headaches

You noticed that in the early statements they were asked about Fisherman Huts (when the story was supposed to be HI). You questioned whether Joran's witness statement mentioned that or why would they ask.  I think the first statement did.  I think Paulus knew from day one that Joran was alone with Natalee or at least he said he was.

   

And Anita knew it before she returned from Holland, too.  She came back to run the show with plan in mind.

.

[Anna]

Joran will go on Janssen's show but why won't be on the deVries program?

     

Answer:  Because Joran is a big chicken fraidy cat!

 

[Easywriter]

I wonder if Joran is one of those people that tell lies so often they start to believe their own BS.  How can he remain so detached from what happened that night?  Must be a defense mechanism he has developed.

[Buckeye]

Buckeye
I was correct about something What was it ?

Sorry... I have a headache the size of Dompigs belly today  and I never  get headaches

You noticed that in the early statements they were asked about Fisherman Huts (when the story was supposed to be HI). You questioned whether Joran's witness statement mentioned that or why would they ask.  I think the first statement did.  I think Paulus knew from day one that Joran was alone with Natalee or at least he said he was.

   

And Anita knew it before she returned from Holland, too.  She came back to run the show with plan in mind.

.

Yep.  The in and out of consciousness had to be changed to show consensual and Joran could not be the last one with her. Her friends in Holland knew the victim had to be trashed.  And, knowing Joran, she knew he told Freddy all about it.

[klaasend]

I wonder if Joran is one of those people that tell lies so often they start to believe their own BS.  How can he remain so detached from what happened that night?  Must be a defense mechanism he has developed.

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath
This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.



Glibness and Superficial Charm


Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.


Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."


Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.


Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.


Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.


Incapacity for Love


Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.


Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.


Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.


Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.


Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.


Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.


Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.


Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

[Buckeye]

I wonder if Joran is one of those people that tell lies so often they start to believe their own BS.  How can he remain so detached from what happened that night?  Must be a defense mechanism he has developed.

Sociopath
per FBI

And the family attitude, what's done is done.  It can't be changed....be the best you can be...get on with your life...telling the truth will not bring her back....the truth will destroy all of us...I can hear Anita's advice .  

[Easywriter]

I wonder if Joran is one of those people that tell lies so often they start to believe their own BS.  How can he remain so detached from what happened that night?  Must be a defense mechanism he has developed.

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath
This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.

SCOTT PETERSON

[Anna]

I wonder if Joran is one of those people that tell lies so often they start to believe their own BS.  How can he remain so detached from what happened that night?  Must be a defense mechanism he has developed.

Compartmentalization?  Just separate HIS reality from his lies?  Besides, he feels he is justified in "doing whatever' to save his own sorry hide just as his father told Dave he would "do anything" to protect his son.

I think he uses "as if" thinking, too.  It could have happened that way so why not tell it that way if it makes HIM look less implicated.

But by abandoning the HI story without telling the Kalpoes, it is so obvious what he was trying to do to them and yet they won't turn on him.  I think I would be so angry that he did that if I were them, I would tell all.

But Joran is still the biggest



And we all know what being the actual last one with a person who is killed likely means.  Unfortunately, we see it almost daily now with predators and these young girls who have become their open season prey.

.

[Easywriter]

I wonder if Joran is one of those people that tell lies so often they start to believe their own BS.  How can he remain so detached from what happened that night?  Must be a defense mechanism he has developed.

Sociopath
per FBI

And the family attitude, what's done is done.  It can't be changed....be the best you can be...get on with your life...telling the truth will not bring her back....the truth will destroy all of us...I can hear Anita's advice .  

That is the sickest thing about this tragedy.  Parents knowing what became of Natalee and letting other parents just keep searching.  There has to be a special place for people that cold and self-serving.

[Easywriter]

I see that gagirl came out of her new hidey hole to comment about me. lol  Birds of a feather.....  I guess it is good all those people found a place filled with like minds.  At least it keeps them off the street.  lol

[Anna]

Sloots have reared an FBI certified

SOCIOPATH!

They must be very proud!  Far too liberal with their rearing practices for a child who was exhibiting the kinds of traits Joran was.  Lying, beating or rather kicking his little brothers, lying, stealing, lying, taking money from parents, lying, KILLING HIS DOG, lying, getting in fights all the time, lying.

The warning signs were all there but they chose to ignore them and this is the result.

If one of my kids had killed the family dog, he had better have made it murder/suicide because of what I would do to him!  And you have to get your bluff/command for respect in very early with these huge kids like Joran.  It's too late after they are much bigger than you are physically.  That starts when they are smaller and therefor more vulnerable and capable of being influenced.  Sometimes the use of intimidation is actually necessary.

I also spanked mine some times--horrors!  But the oldest who got the brunt of it and by far the most spankings had to pass a week long psychological test to hold his high security clearance which he did pass according to those who gave it with flying colors so it surely did not harm him in any way.  He rated something like one in five million or some such astronomical comparison which is proof to me that sparing the rod does spoil the child.

But worse yet, enabling and encouraging wrong behavior makes that bad behavior only worse.  I do not believe that sociopaths are just born normally.  A few are and have organic brain dysfunction but the majority are just narcissists who want their own way about life in general and often they even think it clever to wrong others.  Some would be the exact opposite with tremendous feelings of inferiority and therefore entitled to do anything to level the playing field with normal people.

Sloot Family Values = Rules are for the stupid.

 

[Anna]

I see that gagirl came out of her new hidey hole to comment about me. lol  Birds of a feather.....  I guess it is good all those people found a place filled with like minds.  At least it keeps them off the street.  lol

Yes, every hour they spend on their keyboards is an hour that the public at large is spared their presence!  I just wonder about tacky little people who want to control what others say.  I guess when the facts do not support their POV that is their only recourse, attacking those who keep pointing out that fact.


Back to work but it is a balmy 89 today, a cold wave of sorts.  And a breeze even so I am not complaining.  I don't dare!

Later, gaters!

.

[robots]

I agree that it would seem Joran must have changed from HI to Fisherman's Hut in just about his first statement after arrest for the cops
to be asking the Kalpoes about it.

The rumor was supposed to be because of that Jerry Strawberry look alike   that had grabbed the American tourist in that area before.  But I think Joran changed it from HI to FH to make it look like the Kalpoes were lying by not saying FH the way he was saying it.

Strawberry must be the one scubajap kept saying was questioned about that six times do you think?  No arrests of course, it was just an American tourist and everybody knows they go jogging early in the morning just to get grabbed and raped or something.  (sarcasm on)

And I further think Joran may have planted somebody's shoes at the FH to back up HIS version of events on his walk from the Racquet Club the next day, Monday.  That would frame the Kalpoes and give him some actual physical evidence he was there except somebody maybe Boeti, ha ha, stole the shoes and messed up his frame up job.  Just my opinion and I certainly do NOT want to start the shoe discussion again.  We all know how Robots gets about that!  

   

.

   

[Anna]

   

Before I leave, just had to say hi to Robots!

 

[Anna]

And something pretty for the Monkeys afternoon

[Sue]

I am reading through old monkeys reports, I believe this was Written by Red or Klaas Not Sure... But their comment speaks for itself in this case
and many others

The ariticle was about Christy Wilson Missing after a Night in a casino

These charges are unrelated to the disappearance of Christie Wilson, Placer County detectives said again today he is the only ‘person of interest’ in the case. A person of interest who was the last to ever been seen with Christie Wilson. It would appear that many of these cases all have the same MO wouldn’t they, Christie Wilson, Taylor Behl, Julie Popovich and Natalee Holloway? Who was the last individual ever seen with the missing girl?