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Author Topic: Is It Armageddon Yet?  (Read 11213 times)
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nonesuche
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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2007, 04:52:02 PM »

Friends,

I guess what disturbs me most is to think even within this thread, that we all cannot embrace the message of spirituality in unison, whatever the differences may be. Is it always necessary to tear down another religion Louise, in order to elevate one you cleave to or to prove a point?

For me it isn't, I know my post sounded harsh but my real intent is to get the message across. I don't knock the jewish faith nor mormons even if I disagree for over history EVERY religion has it's sore points. I just don't throw out the baby with the bath water except with radical muslim doctrine and some of the deep christian fundamentalists - again they are extremists which is why.
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2007, 07:59:06 PM »

None, you wrote "Is it always necessary to tear down another religion Louise, in order to elevate one you cleave to or to prove a point?" I have not torn down any religion.  I want you to enjoy your religion as I do mine. Now, I am bowing out of this thread.
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2007, 09:04:06 PM »

Okay, I came back to this thread due to your statement that "you just can't throw out a statement like "I can easily debunk the resurrection" and not expect to be challenged!"

CBB, Jews for Jesus has been around for a long time and it is considered a cult. Their agenda is to convert Jews to Christianity.

I now realize my comment about debunking the resurrection has caused a huge amount of flack.  I told you this would happen. I cannot imagine how I would be attacked if I explained the whole story.  So that is why I haven't posted it. It's probably more than you can deal with and you would reject it out of hand. You have no insight into real Jewish law. And you seem to be upset with me when I suggest the answer is in plain sight, via orthodox Jewish law.

For the last time, I want you to know I respect your Christianity, and I expect you to respect my religion in the way I respect yours.

I'm entitled to my beliefs and don't like you telling me what I believe is wrong.  Can y'all please stop and desist from telling me my beliefs are wrong. Why are you doing this?

As far as I know, there is freedom of speech on this forum.
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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2007, 11:47:46 PM »

Please everybody, I know I feel strongly about my faith as others do theirs.  But for the love of "GOD", the same one who loves us all, let's please not attack and make this a nasty debate.  A discussion is fine, but respect and love is what all of our "GOD" wants.  So let's be civil and do what he would want us to do.  We do not have to agree, but agree to disagree, like in politics. Religion is sacred and it is not for us to judge anybody!  That's God's job, no matter what religion we are.  

Nobody should ever feel the need to defend themselves, so let's not make anybody do so.  Again, it's God's judgement ,not ours and everybody has a right to freedom of religion.  That's what is so wonderful about the USA!

I am a proud Christian and know Jesus died for my sins.  But I also know Jesus expectations of me and that is not to pass judgement on my neighbor.  So Respect and civility, please?

I love you all!  No matter what!
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crazybabyborg
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2007, 02:45:52 AM »

Louise....  I'm really confused as to why you feel attacked. The resurection is the cornerstone, the absolute centrality of Christianity. If Jesus had died on the cross and never risen, then He was just a man. An incredible teacher, but just a man. Casually stating that "I can easily debunk the resurrection" is an attack on my faith, and I would die for my faith, Louise. You may feel the same way about your beliefs, but never, not once, have I flippantly dismissed the foundations of your beliefs. I haven't undermined the Abrahamic covenant or suggested that Issac wasn't the proper heir of God's promise, or casually suggested that Moses was a fraud, and I could easily debunk the exodus as a fairy tale.

Frankly, I have come to believe that I have more respect for those Jewish principles and truth than you do. If you don't have knowledge of the Blood Sacrifice as atonement for sin then Louise, I'm left to wonder if you know what you're defending. And let me assure you, there is not one passage of Jewish Scripture that bears defending on my account. I accept it in full, I believe every word. You have accused me of having no insight to Jewish Law. My only response to that is to say that I have humbly and earnestly approached scripture to have knowledge of what I hope to attain insight. I recognize that I have no hope for insight without knowledge, and I believe that God gave us His word so that we may have both.
 

I don't expect nor have I suggested that you convert, and haven't invited you to be even open to the suggestion. You asked ME about Jewish Law, and my answers to those specific questions are accurate according to Old Testament scripture: your Bible, Louise. I have tried to let your own faith's scripture answer specific questions, and often sited the Bibical reference.


Jews for Jesus may very well be a cult, and it may have an agenda to convert Jews to Christianity. I did not represent it otherwise. I only represented it at all in response to your assertion that NO Jew believes in Jesus, and even went on to say that perhaps the Jewish Faith does not recognize Jews who have come to believe Jesus was the Messiah, as Jews. I don't know the answer to that for sure, but that would be my guess.

I knew a man; born and raised in a Jewish family, who came to believe that Jesus was Messiah. He was a public figure named Zola Levitt and he went on to establish a Dallas based ministry. Although he recently passed away, his ministry continues and has a web site. I personally know that he considered himself a Jew until the day he died. I personally know that he was not a cult leader, nor did he preside over anything the least bit cultish. If you define "Jew" strictly as one who does not believe that Jesus was Messiah, then watch out, 'cause you'll need to make room for Muslims, Buddests, and Hindus' in your faith. My definition of "Jew" would include "Abraham's descendents" among many other things.

Dihanna's right. There should be and traditionally, in this country, has been a kindred unifying spirit among Jews and Christians. Our supportive relationship with Israel in my opinion, should be even stronger and there have been times we haven't done enough. That kindredness is based in the Judeo Christian faith. Christians believe that your God, is our God. Don't portray yourself as victim of intolerance, Louise. You have been neither victim nor suffered intolerance. You chose to flippantly insult my faith and to personally insult me, and then react as if your superior intellect was just over my head.

I'm not challenging your faith. I think I've just challenged you.
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nonesuche
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2007, 07:42:39 AM »

Again, if any message I have left in this thread needs more clarity, my intent is simply this.

If we cannot find middle ground to allow for differing views for of course, we all realize religions are such closely-held beliefs, then what chance is there ever for resolution to the issues dividing our country currently?

CBB I agree that you haven't challenged Louise's religion, the hope should be here that we all expand our minds and our hearts to include many religions. If Louise chooses not to believe in the resurrection then sobeit, but that decision doesn't have to rest upon attacking the commitment of belief to the resurrection by others does it?
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LouiseVargas
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« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2007, 08:24:48 PM »

I feel this is a really good discussion. I think we should talk about it further. It was never my intention to cause trouble amongst us. I don't mean to be combative but I want to comment on a couple of things.

Mrs. Red wrote: "It is hard for me to think that you can believe in Indigo children and such but not in Jesus...." Mrs., Indigo beliefs have NOTHING to do with religion. Can we agree about that? Indigo is metaphysical. As for Jews, Jesus does not figure into the picture other than that he was a great rabbi.

None wrote: "I have also seen you disagree with more than one or two doctrine the many jewish I do know and do attend temple religiously, subscribe to.  Many of them would disagree with you as well." None, can you tell me more about your Jewish friends? Are they ultra orthodox (Hassidic), are they orthodox, are they conservative, or are they reform? Hassidic is the most religious and reform is the least religious. Each sect holds by different values and according to the Torah, the Hassidic Jews follow the religion more closely than the others. Do your friends drive on Saturday? Do they turn lights on / off from Friday night until Saturday night? Do married women wear a scarf to cover their hair? Do they take birth control pills? Do they go to the Mikvah? Do the women get pregnant year after year in order to create more Jewish children? My Rabbi has 12 children. Is there anything in what I wrote that pertains to your friends?

Yes, I started this thread with a very well known song. None wrote: "Reading this thread began with the lyrics to a song" and "Songs are often bites of history but I do not believe that particular song is one of a prophet, but one person's perspective at a moment in time."  None, you mentioned a prophet. Check out the below links. Bob Dylan is considered a prophet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan http
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowin'_in_the_Wind

Regarding presenting you with official Jewish documentation re the resurrection, I have none. It is my own theory I thought up on my own. It follows Jewish religious law. Bodies may not be entombed. They must be buried in the ground immediately after death.

None, I agree that we truly believe that we can reach spirituality in unison when we stop attacking each other.

Can we please all just try to get along? I am not vested in your personal religion and have no reason to anger you, no reason to say one religion is better than the other. It is what it is.

Can we please get over this discussion?
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crazybabyborg
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2007, 12:55:11 AM »

Excerpt from:"Jewish Virtual Library". Here's the link:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/jerburial.html
I would only note that the life of Jesus on earth was during the second temple period.


The large number of burial sites and tombs in Jerusalem dating from the Second Temple period (second century BCE - first century CE) have been the subject of intensive and continuing investigation. Hundreds of tombs, elaborate and simple, were hewn into the slopes of the hills surrounding the city, mainly on the Mount of Olives and Mount Scopus.

The burial caves were in continuous use for several generations by members of the same family. Simple tombs have a narrow opening, sealed with a square stone. Several dozen particularly large tombs have splendid facades, decorated with columns topped by gables with floral motifs. In primary burial, bodies were placed in niches (kuhim) or on benches (arcosolia) cut into the walls of the burial chambers. The most typical feature of the Jewish tombs of that period are the stone chests with lids (ossuaries). Thousands of these have been found in Jerusalem, some decorated and bearing inscriptions. They attest to the prevalent practice of collecting the bones of the deceased for secondary burial, a custom based on the Jewish belief in the resurrection of the dead. Following are descriptions of some of the more important tombs.

There are three famous tombs in the Kidron Valley:

   1.

      Yad Avshalom (monument to Absalom, traditionally ascribed to the rebellious son of King David), is the most complete funerary monument dating to the Second Temple period. The 20 m.- high monument is composed of a lower rock-cut square structure containing a small burial chamber. Its four outer sides are decorated with Ionic columns supporting a Doric frieze. The upper part of the monument is round and built of stones supporting a concave conical roof. The monument was probably intended to serve as nefesh (memorial) for the adjacent cave of Jehoshaphat (King of Judah, for whom this part of the Kidron Valley is named); it contains eight burial chambers and has an elaborate facade decorated with a relief of vine leaves and bunches of grapes.
   2.

      The Tomb of Zechariah (by tradition the Prophet Zechariah or, by another tradition, the father of John the Baptist) is a monolithic monument cut from the surrounding rock. It is a square structure of 5 x 5 m., decorated with Ionic columns and crowned by a pyramid. It probably served as nefesh for the tomb below it.
   3.

      The Tomb of Benei Hezir is characterized by its free-standing facade with two Doric columns, all cut into the rock. It has a long Hebrew inscription carved on the architrave above the columns, identifying it as the tomb and nefesh of several members of the Hezir family who had served as priests in the Temple and were buried in the rock-hewn tomb below. The name appears in the Priestly Roster of the First Temple: ...the seventeenth to Hezir (1 Chronicles 24:15) and again among the priests serving in the Second Temple. (Nehemiah 10:20)

etc. etc. etc.
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2007, 11:28:05 AM »

Louise-

I fear I don't subscribe to songwriters as prophets but certainly you can, if that is your desire.

You wrote this and I will try my best to respond and I APPRECIATE the questions you are asking also  Wink

"None wrote: "I have also seen you disagree with more than one or two doctrine the many jewish I do know and do attend temple religiously, subscribe to. Many of them would disagree with you as well." None, can you tell me more about your Jewish friends? Are they ultra orthodox (Hassidic), are they orthodox, are they conservative, or are they reform? Hassidic is the most religious and reform is the least religious. Each sect holds by different values and according to the Torah, the Hassidic Jews follow the religion more closely than the others. Do your friends drive on Saturday? Do they turn lights on / off from Friday night until Saturday night? Do married women wear a scarf to cover their hair? Do they take birth control pills? Do they go to the Mikvah? Do the women get pregnant year after year in order to create more Jewish children? My Rabbi has 12 children. Is there anything in what I wrote that pertains to your friends? "

My parents were a bit more progressive than many in the south, actually we as a family were expected to embrace diversity and the worst punishment we as children ever received, was when we did not. I recall my older sister making a snobby statement to another kid in grammar school once regarding their lifestyle, my mother overheard and she was punished for weeks. I learned quickly from that one example. So hopefully that sets a backdrop for you...

- My first jewish friends were 'conservative' and were dear friends of our entire family, they owned and operated the most upscale department store in our city. I had my first experiences within jewish holidays in their home.

- I attended boarding school and had a roommate who had conservative jewish parents but I would note this roommate as having grown up to become a reformist. We are still close friends and she has married and raised four children in this faith. My exposure was limited by distance with her post our graduation, but we visit every few years plus we email weekly and speak by phone as well. Her decision to move to a more liberal form of the jewish faith was one we have discussed often, it did create some issues with her parents as well, I hopefully was a place she could feel support for that as a friend.

- Post finishing grad school I had a job which required me to both employ and work to support as personnel one Hassidic architect. It was a very enlightening experience, very very talented person.

- Post marriage I had seven close jewish friends/families within our personal social network. All were moderate conservative, were in temple each Saturday and driving to and from but not socially active on Saturday. All had 4 children or more, I have no idea if they took birth control and they did wear scarves to temple but I did not notice that occurring beyond that. We also shared in holiday celebrations such as Hannukah with them, in various ways. I often gave them menorahs that I would find on travels as gifts as opposed to xmas gifts each year, or hannukah items for their children.

- Post reformatting my career in 98 in a different direction, I worked as a business and HR consultant helping clients devise diversity planning and support for diversity. Yes faith designation has been included with this but I would also state I see far more gender and sexual preference discrimination violations/issues than religious.

- I have one good new friend post my divorce who is jewish, she is a reformist and we spend time with her family as well.

I hope that gives you some idea of my experiences to date and yes, I do have theological discussion with these friends at time in an effort toward better understanding, just as I do with catholic or lutheran friends.
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2007, 10:32:13 PM »

Dear Nonesy,

Thank you so much for your detailed response. I'm happy to know you are aware of the various Jewish sects. I now feel certain that you understand Jewish beliefs.

In each religion, I see that people pick and choose what tenets they will hold by. There are many Catholics who take birth control pills, for example.

My orthodox Jewish Rabbi has said it is more important to tear down the fences and allow non orthodox Jews into the fold. He did not discourage his daughter, one of twelve children, from hooking up with a guy with maroon long hair, facial piercings, tattoos, etc. I have gone to many Sabbath dinners at his house and he welcomes everyone.

Thanks again for your response. I appreciate it. I have two more subjects to post.
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« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2007, 10:52:02 PM »

Mrs.Red wrote: "It is hard for me to think that you can believe in Indigo children and such but not in Jesus...."

Mrs., do you mean that after all the years, you have been thinking that Jews believe in Jesus?
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« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2007, 11:04:25 PM »

None,

If we cannot find middle ground to allow for differing views for of course, we all realize religions are such closely-held beliefs, then what chance is there ever for resolution to the issues dividing our country currently?

You are very insightful.

I am seeing all the seeds of Armageddon on this topic.
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2007, 11:26:47 PM »

CBB wrote: "The Jews were and still are His CHOSEN people!"

Let me tell you a story that I was astonished to hear. It totally blew me away.

When my daughter was 18, she went to Jerusalem to study orthodox religion for several years. She went on a scholarship provided by rich and anonymous Jews in Los Angeles who wanted to bring nonaffiliated young Jews, who showed great promise, back to the fold. She was always lucky and hooked up with high level Rabbinical scholars and their wives.

God did not offer Jews "The Chosen People" status first. He offered it up to many groups. He had one condition. In order to be my chosen people, you have to make peace with your enemies. You cannot rob, rape, pillage or kill your enemies. The various groups rejected the conditions as they made their living by murder and pillaging. Eventually he offered "The Chosen People" to the Jews. They said, "Ok, we would love to be your chosen people. We don't want to kill, pillage, rape or rob."

And that is how they gained the status of being the chosen people.
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« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2007, 11:39:05 PM »

None,  I am extremely impressed with your knowledge on so many topics and with your education.  You are an extremely intelligent person on may topics.  I feel I can learn so much from you.  

CBB, your knowledge of the Bible far outweighs mine, as I continue in my pursuit of knowledge.  I am a firm and avid believer in my christian faith and nobody will ever sway me.  It is in my heart, thanks to the Holy Spirit. I believe I can learn alot from you as well

With this knowledge on Jewish faith, between all who has posted, I believe there can be a constructive conversation.   Especially with the Christian and Jewish ties that keep us so close.

My original post, was concerning what I feel to be the beginning of the end, per my  Bible.  I do see this as the beginning of the end.  I do not fear that, as I know my fate.  I will be with God thru Jesus Christ as my saviour.  

LV,  please keep in mind, the Christians connection to the Jews and our love and respect for them.   Whether you feel you can rebuke the Jesus as the savior is unimportant.  It's our commonalities that are.  So there is never a need to argue, but understand and respect each other for what each other stands for.  It's IN the Bible!  

I love you all!  God Bless!
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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2007, 08:45:27 AM »

Louise-

I am glad you can now see I do respect your religion, somehow I felt you thought I might not, which was never the case. Religion is so interesting, CBB does have a phenomenal grasp of the Bible and christian literature that astounds me - I wish I had more time and had more opportunity to learn at that depth. I also found a true renewal of my faith last year as Rick was dying, it's hard to describe but it truly was my faith that held me back from the precipice of emotional ruin. It also enabled me to find a measure of peace so that I could be there for him, for within the realization he would certainly not survive the cancer, his last months needed to be about him and not about my falling apart over losing him. So my faith was truly tested, even now missing him at a level I cannot describe, my faith remains strong. I don't question God, I know there is a plan.

Dihannah - I am far from the most intelligent trust me, I go to bed each night worrying about what I didn't learn for work in any given day that might be my downfall. I was just fortunate enough to have parents that emphasized and also committed to great educations for their kids, and who also expected us to work early and hard. Work and particularly research is really a respite form me in times when I feel unable to control other forces that impact my life negatively. I also was drawn to working with HR strategies because I so like people and truly do believe they are our greatest resource, creativity, and power.

I think you said it best Dihannah, it is all about embracing our differences and looking for the foundations that do link us together - or even the humanity. I like to think we are a very humane group, losing Natalee brought us all together originally, but it's the humanity that draws us close IMO.
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2007, 10:43:35 PM »

Quote from: "LouiseVargas"
Mrs.Red wrote: "It is hard for me to think that you can believe in Indigo children and such but not in Jesus...."

Mrs., do you mean that after all the years, you have been thinking that Jews believe in Jesus?



NO LV That isn't at all what I was saying. My point was simply if one is able to believe the metaphysical of Indigo children why not believe in a true miracle.... which is that Jesus was actually the Son who died for us and our sins so that we don't have to.

While I will not continue to discuss this subject, due to the fact that you stated that you knew the truth in one of your earlier posts which I previously quoted... I just have to say that regardless of your beliefs - my truth is that Jesus was the Son and died for me.  CrazyBB stated very eloquently and much more succiently what I needed to say.
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LouiseVargas
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2007, 11:57:29 PM »

How many times do I have to write and say Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah? It is upon that very fact that our religions diverge. We don't believe in the miracle. OK?

Am I going to lose all your goodwill and friendships because I follow Jewish beliefs and not Christian beliefs?

There is freedom of religion, yes or no?
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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2007, 04:44:22 PM »

Quote from: "LouiseVargas"
How many times do I have to write and say Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah? It is upon that very fact that our religions diverge. We don't believe in the miracle. OK?

Am I going to lose all your goodwill and friendships because I follow Jewish beliefs and not Christian beliefs?

There is freedom of religion, yes or no?


LV,  I don't think anybody is disagreeing with your Jewish beliefs.  I think we all know at least the basic beliefs of Jews and your feelings on Jesus.  Nobody is arguing with you about that.  The only debate I've seen is, the discussion of the various factions of it, as there are in the Christian faith.  

This thread has included alot of facts and versus from the Bible to back up what we were talking about, explaining why we believe what we do.   You just went on the attack immediately for no reason with your comment  "I can easily debunk the resurrection" which was very offensive.  

Nobody said anything negative about the Jewish faith or said they would/could debunk it.     This should be a discussion of faith, not an attack of who's is right or wrong and who can prove what.

I believe that one comment is what set the negative tone to begin with and caused everybody to become defensive.

I know you probably feel alone as the only Jew here, while the rest are Christian, but again, nobody is attacking you or arguing your belief of Jesus.  Your getting defensive for no reason.

I say  this out of Love.  Just back up,  take a deep breath, read and think of what you are really responding to.
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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2007, 11:16:14 PM »

Dear Di,

You are entitled to your opinion.

You wrote: LV, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with your Jewish beliefs. I think we all know at least the basic beliefs of Jews and your feelings on Jesus.  Nobody is arguing with you about that.

Di, yes they are. When Mrs.Red writes: "It is hard for me to think that you can believe in Indigo children and such but not in Jesus...." I consider that statement to be a huge disagreement with my Jewish beliefs. I am not getting defensive for no reason. The reason is that you all are trying to show me that I should believe in Jesus and the true miracle, etc., when I've told you over and over that Jews do not believe in Jesus. Period. End of story.  

In the calendar of Judaism, we are now in the year 5767. Christianity is in the year 2007. Our civilization been here 3760 years ahead of yours.  What does that mean to you?
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« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2007, 11:32:36 PM »

You just went on the attack immediately for no reason with your comment "I can easily debunk the resurrection" which was very offensive.


this is the crux of why I felt the need to defend my religion.  I get it that the majority of Jewish people don't believe in Jesus... but your statement about debunking was extremely offensive and of course, put me in a defensive mode.
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