http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1205/25/ijvm.01.htmlJANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Blood Found in Isabel Celis House;
More Info Revealed in Trayvon Martin ShootingAired May 25, 2012 - 19:00 ET
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In less than one year, George Zimmerman went from slamming the Sanford Police Department to singing its praises.
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, CHARGED WITH TRAYVON MARTIN SHOOTING: I also have had had the opportunity to take ride-alongs with the city of Sanford Police Department. And what I saw was disgusting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says, "I have high hopes for and restored faith in your administration and the Sanford Police Department in its entirety.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, the Trayvon Martin family reacting right here on the show to a slew of stunning developments in the George Zimmerman case, including an inside look at exactly what kind of relationship Trayvon`s shooter had with the local police.
We`ve learned now that, over a year before George Zimmerman shot Trayvon, Zimmerman was outraged over how police handled this brutal caught- on-tape beating of an African-American homeless man by the son of a police lieutenant.
George Zimmerman accused cops of a cover-up and corruption and slammed the police department at a city hall meeting. Listen.
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ZIMMERMAN: I also have had the opportunity to take ride-alongs with the city of Sanford Police Department. And what I saw was disgusting.
The officer showed me his favorite hiding spot for taking naps; explained to me that he doesn`t carry a long gun in his vehicle, because in his words, "Anything that requires a long gun requires a lot of paperwork, and you`re going to find me as far away from it." He took two lunch breaks and attended a going-away party for one of his fellow officers.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: But, months later when new Police Chief Bill Lee took over, Zimmerman`s whole outlook on the Sanford Police Department changed.
He wrote in a letter, "I have high hopes for and restored faith in your administration and the Sanford Police Department in its entirety." He spoke specifically about the department`s volunteer coordinator. Writing in another e-mail, he described his close working relationship and quick responses to e-mails and phone calls.
Straight out to Natalie Jackson, the attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family.
Natalie, what is the reaction to the Martin family to this new information about shooter George Zimmerman`s relationship with the local police department that initially refused to arrest him after he shot Trayvon Martin dead?
NATALIE JACKSON, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN (via phone): Well, first, I`d like to say, Jane, that we believe George Zimmerman is innocent until trial. So I don`t want to get into George Zimmerman and his statements and everything.
But if you asked me about the relationships of the police department, one of the reasons that we got involved in this case is because we were concerned about the actions of the police. Not because of -- you know, George Zimmerman is one key, but we were concerned about the actions of the Sanford Police Department and the relationships that would cause a non- arrest in this case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to bring in Mark Nejame, HLN legal analyst, a criminal defense attorney down there in Orlando where all this is going on. What do you make, Mark, of this back story between George Zimmerman and the police, the fact that he was sending e-mails and phone calls to this community volunteer coordinator, so the cops had to have known who he was?
MARK NEJAME, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: I don`t know if I buy that one, Jane. Just because somebody sends an e-mail to an administrator in a department doesn`t really flow down to the officers in any bureaucracy that I`m aware of.
I think Natalie`s point is well taken, though, that this really has to do with a review of what went on with the Sanford Police Department, and did they conduct an appropriate investigation? I think we now know that Chief Lee never met with him. And so the chief, who is the top of the food chain there, never met with Zimmerman, to all the information that I`ve been able to glean.
I think also it`s important to realize that the state attorney`s office is the one who makes the decision.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard the crying. It was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hear like a bump. You could hear that Trayvon -- somebody bumped Trayvon. I could hear the grass.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They always get away. This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I know is someone is on top of the other person, and I hear help, help, help yelled a couple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 911 and the other tapes were played for the Martin family, and they identified that as their son crying for help. That is absolutely positively George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you definitely could tell another voice that was not Trayvon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you heard this other voice say what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you doing around here?
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Another avalanche of new information about to be released in the Trayvon Martin shooting next week, and tonight there are a whole bunch of new questions about what crucial eyewitnesses actually saw the night Neighborhood Watch volunteer George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. The details surrounding the shooting of Trayvon Martin have been murky, and now the Orlando Sentinel reporting at least four witnesses have changed their stories. You remember this witness who described in detail a fight between Trayvon and Zimmerman with Zimmerman yelling for help.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I first walked out there, the black guy was on top. And the only reason I can tell that was because the guy that was on the ground under him at that point wrestling was definitely a lighter color.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, according to the Orlando Sentinel, that crucial witness has changed part of his story. And get this, there are at least three other witnesses who have reportedly changed their statements, too. Is the Trayvon Martin case a vortex of confusion and contradiction with witness after witness changing their stories? If there are questions about the few witnesses we have, does that make the testimony of Trayvon Martin`s girlfriend that much more important? She says she was on the phone with Trayvon moments before he was shot. Listen to this.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you definitely can tell another voice that was not Trayvon --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you heard this other voice say what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you doing around here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing around here. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I call Trayvon, Trayvon, what`s going on, what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is you say saying that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Then I am calling him and he didn`t answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No answer from Trayvon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I hear something like bump, you can hear that Trayvon -- somebody bumped Trayvon because I could hear the grass.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll play more of that tape in a minute. Observers have suggested Angela Corey, the special prosecutor, relied heavily on the testimony of Trayvon`s girlfriend to charge George Zimmerman.
All right. I want to go back to Mark Nejame, HLN legal analyst. What do you make of four witnesses, four crucial witnesses reportedly changing their story? That`s huge.
NEJAME: Well, you know, it`s common that witnesses once they get subject to cross-examination and being questioned again, I don`t think in 30 years I`ve ever seen two witness statements line up.
I don`t know the depth of the changed stories. I don`t know if it helps or hurts one side or the other. I do know that sometimes minutia can be made into a mountain, and sometimes issues that are significant are turned into nothing because of the subject of cross-examination. So we need to find out what those changes are.
But, and we need to find out why those changes occurred. Is there a fee or is there something underfoot? Are there people being paid for stories that would influence their testimony? We need to find out what was changed and why it was changed.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and I guess we have to ask, since apparently three out of the four witnesses who changed their story changed it in a way that hurts George Zimmerman, you have to wonder, Michelle Suskauer, criminal defense attorney out of West Palm Beach, if they might have felt actually intimidated or scared because of all the uproar over the shooting.
MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Jane, because their names are out there, where they live is out there, and certainly how could all of this national and international pressure not affect them?
But what is significant is that each one of their credibility is going to be weighed if this case even makes it to a jury. And this just screams reasonable doubt. There is a conflict in the testimony here. And this is going to be a big problem for the state.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tanya Acker?
ACKER: I think I really have to take issue with that, because certainly the credibility of these witnesses is in question, but what is not necessarily in question is whether or not there`s reasonable doubt in this case. What is not at issue is there was a fight. We know there was a fight. What is at issue is whether or not George Zimmerman had any business pursuing this unarmed young man, who, by the way, you know, when you`re walking down the street, you have the right not to be accosted or molested by somebody who wants to know what you`re doing. Perhaps it`s none of their business. So the issue is not so much the fight. We know that there was a fight. We know that George Zimmerman sustained some injuries. The issue is what was he doing continuing to pursue Trayvon Martin when the police said we`ve got this, go home?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, to that point, a witness said he saw some MMA- style fighting. That means mixed martial arts. Listen to this witness, a crucial witness, explain exactly what he says he saw. Essentially, what he said was that he saw a -- I believe it was a black man on top of a lighter skinned man, and he said that Zimmerman was the one being beaten up, and he also said that he thought that the person being beaten up was the one who was yelling for help.
But here`s what`s so wild, and this is what gets me, is that Brian Russell, when he was reinterviewed after initially saying he thought Trayvon was throwing all these punches, martial arts style, he then said a couple weeks later, he was no longer sure that Trayvon was even throwing punches. He said this teenager may simply have been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground. That is a huge change when somebody said they saw martial arts movements, and then the next minute they`re saying they didn`t know what they saw at all, that he may have just been pinning him to the ground, Brian.
RUSSELL: Actually, Jane, as a lawyer and as a psychological expert witness, I can tell you that that is how it goes a lot of times with eyewitness testimony, and actually the changing stories probably reflect more the problems with the reliability of eyewitness testimony than the truth of what really happened. I think Mark Nejame was exactly right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there are some major problems with these witnesses changing their stories. Witness No. 2 said she saw two guys running, and then she changed her story and said she caught a glimpse of one person running, and all this because she wasn`t wearing her contacts. Now another witness said at first she did not know who was on top in this confrontation. Now she says she is absolutely sure George Zimmerman was on top. And so we have all of these witnesses changing their story.
Natalie Jackson, the attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family, what do you make of four crucial witnesses changing their story?
NATALIE JACKSON, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON`S FAMILY: I think that a jury will hear all the evidence, Jane, and they`ll decide. They`ll hear it in a linear fashion and not the way that it`s been put out.
I did hear you say that -- that -- the -- I heard you say that the evidence is going to be relying upon the testimony, but I believe that George Zimmerman`s own words is really the crucial testimony in this case and the linchpin in this case for the prosecution.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But let me ask Michelle Suskauer, what happens in court during a trial when a witness says one thing, and then says something completely different? How is a lawyer going to use that to impeach their testimony?
SUSKAUER: Well, that`s exactly what they do. They`re going to -- the witness will testify, and then the lawyer will elicit the fact that they made a statement completely differently at another time, and the time that they made the statement was much closer to when the actual incident happened, and it makes a difference.
But, Jane, what`s important is that if this even gets to a jury, which it may not because of a stand your ground motion to dismiss that will be heard first. What`s really crucial is that the court would instruct the jury that they can find reasonable doubt from the evidence, from a lack of evidence, or from the conflict in the evidence. And this is conflict. These are key witnesses. Because all you have is Zimmerman and these witnesses. You do not have Trayvon Martin to tell his side of the story.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Michelle Suskauer has been saying that she thinks the stand your ground hearing could have the case thrown out, but a lot of people say that`s wishful thinking on their part if that`s what they want. Which a lot of people don`t want.
ACKER: Jane, the authors of the stand your ground law say it does not protect George Zimmerman in this case. The stand your ground law does not give you the right to pursue someone. It does not give you the right nor any self-defense theory generally does not give you the right to pursue someone, to provoke a confrontation, and then hide behind it.
According to this 911 tape, George Zimmerman was instructed to go home. He did not. So certainly there was a fight. Certainly we have got conflicting witness testimony about who was on top and who was throwing punches. The stand your ground law did not give Zimmerman the right to pursue this kid and then have a confrontation escalate.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Natalie Jackson, last word, ten seconds, do we have any idea when the stand your ground hearing is going to occur?
JACKSON: I agree with Michelle. I would be very surprised if the stand your ground hearing even takes place. I don`t think that one will happen. And if it does happen, I do not believe George Zimmerman will win that hearing. It will go to trial.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, thank you so much, fantastic panel, for joining me on this. We are all over this case. We will stay on top of it. And I`ll tell you one thing I`ve learned covering these mega cases, they`re like runaway freight trains. You never know where they`re going to go next. Back in a moment.
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