NANCY GRACEApparent Blood Found in Missing Isabel`s Bedroom
Aired May 25, 2012 - 20:00 ET
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Tucson. A parent`s worst nightmare, Mommy and Daddy tuck 6-year-old Isabel into bed. 8:00 AM, she`s gone. She usually sleeps with her two brothers, but not that night. After a third search at the home and a landfill, police seizing fabric and pillows from the family car.
Then a stunning reveal from Tucson police that the parents have, quote, "no sense of urgency." Mommy and Daddy take polygraphs but won`t they passed. A secret home security camera trained on the path to Isabel`s window not working that night.
In a major twist, Isabel`s father banned from any contact with the two remaining young sons, Isabel`s brothers, Mommy and Daddy now living separately. We obtain 911 calls showing a stunning contrast between Mommy and Daddy, both on the 911. Daddy is calm, cool, even chuckling, this just moments after he discovers his 6-year-old girl is gone. Mommy, on the other hand, hysterical. We learned child services in the home just before Isabel disappears. And has Daddy lawyered up?
Bombshell tonight. A blood-like substance found in Isabel`s bedroom. Repeat, a blood-like substance found on the floor of the 6-year-old`s room. Similar stains, we learn tonight, also found on a white shower curtain stuffed inside that family car, luminol testing done throughout. And tonight, another clue. A man`s Wolverine brand boot prints discovered behind the home. Tonight, is there finally a crack in the case of missing 6-year-old Isabel?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERGIO CELIS, ISABEL`S FATHER: Just please, please, to the person or persons who have Isabel...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just hearing about this for the first time...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) blood on the floor...
SERGIO CELIS: Tell us your demands.
BECKY CELIS, ISABEL`S MOTHER -- my husband. I went to work this morning at 7:00, and I just I didn`t even come and check on her (INAUDIBLE)
SERGIO CELIS: Tell us what you want.
Hello. I need to report a missing child. I believe she was abducted from my house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This new theory that somebody staying at the house may have owed somebody money and that the little girl was taken as a ransom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reported footprints on a utility box behind the home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us how much money might be available if ransom ever happened to be paid, just hypothetically?
BECKY CELIS: Out of us?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
BECKY CELIS: Nothing. Nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nowhere in the documents, however, is there mention of a ransom or any notes found inside.
BECKY CELIS: (INAUDIBLE) can`t see anything else. And the door`s locked to outside (INAUDIBLE) come (INAUDIBLE) fence, or I don`t know what they did, but oh, my God!
If you know how we`re supposed to be acting, please let us know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A blood-like substance found in Isabel`s bedroom. Repeat, found on the floor of the 6-year-old`s bedroom. We are just learning that tonight. Similar stains also found on a white shower curtain stuffed inside the family car. Luminol testing done throughout.
And tonight, another clue. A man`s Wolverine brand boot print discovered behind the home. Is there a crack in the case? Where is 6- year-old Isabel?
We are taking your calls. Straight out to ABC News correspondent Neal Karlinsky. Neal, thank you for being with us. What can you tell us about -- first of all, I`m not crazy about the boot print. That could be anybody, anytime. I`m concerned about the blood-like substance found in her bedroom and what was on that white shower curtain and why was the shower curtain in the car?
NEAL KARLINSKY, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, a lot of good questions. I mean, we have 550 pages of police documents that are released, with all kinds of information, some of it relevant, some of it likely not.
But of course, the standouts do include what is described in the documents as photographs of a blood-like stain in a middle bedroom on the east side of the house. We know from witnesses, also from blueprints that we`ve obtained of the house, that that was Isabel Celis`s bedroom, the one with where there is the blood-like substance.
Now, what we don`t know is what the lab analysis told police, if, in fact, it`s come back yet, about what exactly that was. We do know they took DNA from all of the relatives. They took a toothbrush and a hairbrush from Isabel to make a comparison.
Is there a match? That is something that is not revealed.
GRACE: We also learned that there was, in fact, Neal Karlinsky, writing in her bedroom closet. We learned that, too.
KARLINSKY: Police scoured this house inch by inch. The writing on the bedroom closet, we have no reference point of that. Is that something a little girl writes on her wall or something more? There`s no indications of a ransom note...
KARLINSKY: ... or of anything like that.
GRACE: Did your parents let you write on the wall?
KARLINSKY: I can`t speak for how other people raise their children.
GRACE: So that would be a no!
KARLINSKY: I`m the father of a 6-year-old. She does some things I don`t like her to do, also.
GRACE: Well, long story short, we learned that some type of message had been scrawled on the inside of the wall of Isabel`s closet. We are also learning a blood-like substance found on the floor of her room. And based on everything we know, based on the exterior of the home and the blueprint that we obtained, that is her bedroom.
What can you tell me -- Neal Karlinsky joining us tonight, everyone, ABC News correspondent -- regarding a white shower curtain in that family car, the red car that was parked in the driveway, the car that wouldn`t crank up, that nobody would use? That was parked in the driveway. We have video -- pull it, Liz -- of police removing fabric and pillows from the car.
Tonight, we learn that fabric is a white shower curtain with similar stains on it, blood-like stains on it.
KARLINSKY: Yes. This is very curious. I was there right after the disappearance for more than a week, and we watched police just tearing apart that red car, just going through it methodically day after day. Now we know from these documents they did, in fact, find what they describe as a white hat and also a shower curtain inside with a brown or reddish-brown substance on it.
Of course, that leads you to be curious as to whether that`s blood. They say that it wasn`t field-tested. Again, we don`t know what the lab results were on that. But as you mentioned, we have been told by police sources that red car never left the house. It was actually parked off to the side of the driveway, sort of adjacent, and we`re told it didn`t run.
GRACE: Well, I want to go to Dr. Bill Lloyd, board-certified surgeon and pathologist. Dr. Lloyd, thank you for being with us. We know that white shower curtain was stuffed into the car, OK? All this occurred -- Isabel`s disappearance occurred between 11:00 PM that night and 8:00 AM, when her father discovers she`s gone. To our knowledge, no one left the home during the night.
If the shower curtain was removed from the home that night, where else would there be to stuff it, the trash or a car that doesn`t work, that nobody will think to look in? The mom wouldn`t look in it. The dad wouldn`t look in it. So if you have this shower curtain it can be stuffed in the car and no one would think to look there for a period of time because the car didn`t work. So why was the shower curtain stuffed in the car?
But my question to you, Dr. Lloyd, is this. Police chose at that moment not to field-test the shower curtain. But there`s a reason for that. Their reasoning, Dr. Lloyd -- and I want your thoughts on this -- is that they wanted that shower curtain in as much -- as close to the condition they found it as when the lab got it. They didn`t want to touch it. They didn`t want to handle it. They didn`t want to destroy any evidence. They saw it, they seized it, they sent it to the crime lab.
Was that a mistake, or would you agree with their decision, Dr. Lloyd?
DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: No, that`s standard protocol, Nancy. They want a very contained environment when they unravel and open up that shower curtain. It`ll be just as important to retrieve fingerprints as it will be to test whatever substance is on the shower curtain.
That takes time. It takes a controlled environment. They don`t want anybody else`s fingerprints on that shower curtain, as well. Once the fingerprints are captured, then they can go about testing the stain, take small samples and reconstitute that to identify, is this blood, and then test for blood antigens to identify whose blood it is.
And remember, Nancy, I bet you that car was locked. Whoever put that shower curtain in the car had to have a key.
GRACE: You know what, Dr. Lloyd? I just wrote the question, Who had access to the car? Because that car was always parked. I confirmed that with the next-door neighbor. And she told me that car had never been moved in all the time she had lived there. To my understanding, it didn`t work or it didn`t crank. I`m sure it was locked. The reality is...
GRACE: ... had a key.
LLOYD: ... the shower curtain. Testing for blood rescue, you need a dark environment. Nancy, you can only do it once. You can only test for luminol once, then the reaction is over. So you have to be ready to view it in the dark and to have your photographic apparatus all set up. Again, a controlled environment is the best way to capture solid evidence.
GRACE: Apparently, Dr. Lloyd, when they saw it, they recognized a similar stain on the shower curtain and what they saw on the floor in Isabel`s bedroom. And we`ve been told that was a blood-like substance on the floor of her bedroom. They could, I think, have taken a scratch of it for a field test, but why bother? I agree.
And if you see that video again, Liz, please, they all have on their latex gloves. They`re not leaving fingerprints. God help (ph) them. So they wouldn`t have been contaminated in that way.
Everybody, we are taking your calls. To Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com. What more do we know, Alexis?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: You know, Nancy, there was even more potential blood evidence found in another car. They found a small spot of blood on the front seat of the car. This is another -- so that`s three examples of potential blood that they found in Isabel`s residence.
GRACE: You know what? I`ve got a problem with that car, Ellie Jostad, because I don`t understand -- there`s two cars in play here...
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right.
GRACE: ... the car that -- the red, I think, is an Acura Integra...
GRACE: ... old model, right there parked in front of -- beside the home. It`s always there. I think it doesn`t crank. That`s where they got a shower curtain, a hat, which many people believe to be a shower cap. I`m going to go back to Karlinsky on that in just a moment.
But then there`s another car, Ellie, that they say they did luminol tests on.
GRACE: What is that? Where does that car fit into the scenario?
JOSTAD: Right. Well, that`s the other car that`s involved here. It is a Toyota Corolla. Apparently, they did a luminol test and there was a stain in there that had a positive reaction to the luminol when it was examined under an ultraviolet light. We don`t know, though, whose car that is or where the car was in it relation to the house.
GRACE: Neal Karlinsky, ABC News correspondent, is joining us right now from the field. Neal, what do we know about this second car in which they did a luminol test with a positive result?
KARLINSKY: So there`s two cars. There`s the red car you`re talking about. That just sits on the side of the house.
KARLINSKY: It does not go anywhere. There is the car in the garage. We`re told that`s a Toyota Corolla the family apparently drives. And the luminol test, the positive result for blood was on the driver`s seat -- the driver`s seat. I think that`s critical.
I want to make one other point, Nancy, about the blood found in Isabel`s bedroom, or what appears to be blood. If you remember back early on in this case, police were wrapping up their search of the house. They were going to give it back to the family.
Then they came out and told reporters that some of the new dogs that were brought out by the FBI lab in Quantico hit on something in her bedroom, and that led them to search her house further for another 24 hours. It looks like possibly that could be the stain they`re now talking about in these documents.
GRACE: At this hour, the search is on for 6-year-old Isabel. And tonight, blockbuster evidence that we have just obtained, including blood evidence, possible blood evidence, and also boot print evidence. Police have narrowed it down to what they believe, Wolverine brand boot prints behind the back yard.
Let`s see a mock-up of the Wolverine boot print, please, or the Wolverine boot. OK, and also, take a look at those shoes being worn by dad, Sergio Celis. What does that look like to you, Jason Oshins?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Looks like a Wolverine boot print right there. So you know, as you`re looking at that, you certainly give pause. You`ve got a lot of evidence working here against Mr. Celis for the moment, and it seems to be mounting. But the point we must remain (SIC) is that police have got to be fair. They`ve invested a lot of money on this.
GRACE: Another issue is a lot of boots can look like a Wolverine. You have to make a test inside of a lab to match up any boot print. We don`t know whose boot print that was, and even if it was Sergio Celis`s boot print, he has a right to be in his back yard, people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Isabel Celis disappearing from her family`s Tucson home.
911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?
SERGIO CELIS: I want to report a missing person, my little girl who is 6 years old. I believe she was abducted from our house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A witness telling them that a guy who was staying with the family owed someone a lot of money, and that`s why she was taken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody who would hold a grudge against you for any reason?
SERGIO CELIS: No.
BECKY CELIS: No, that`s the whole problem is that we don`t understand why or how we made Isabel a target.
SERGIO CELIS: To the person or persons who have Isabel, tell us your demands. Tell us what you want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, we learn from volumes of police documents that a neighbor said they think this was some kind of retribution for money owed by a relative living in the home.
Now, we know of a cousin living in the home. Ellie, was it a cousin or the brother of Sergio Celis?
JOSTAD: It was a cousin. And I believe it is actually on Becky Celis`s side of the family.
GRACE: OK. Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, death penalty- qualified prosecutor, Karen Conti, defense attorney, Chicago, Jason Oshins, defense attorney, New York.
Eleanor, all this business about it was for a debt or a drug debt -- BS. That only happens in the movies. And number two, if it was, where`s the ransom? Where`s the ransom request?
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Exactly, Nancy. That`s just sort of a bogus theory that`s going out there. People take children -- and I hate to say it, but they only take them for one reason, Nancy, to sexually abuse them because why else are you going to take a small child? There`s no note. There`s no nothing. And this is what is so frightening about these cases. It`s abuse, and often murder.
GRACE: Jason Oshins?
OSHINS: Eleanor is right on target. I mean, there`s no other -- ransoms are from the movies. I mean, that`s the only place that they sit well. They -- it doesn`t occur in modern times. It`s for sexual purposes, and that`s the unfortunateness of this abduction.
GRACE: Karen Conti?
KAREN CONTI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It looks to me like they`re just trying to divert attention -- We didn`t do anything, it`s the guy who`s owed money. So I agree with the other lawyers.
GRACE: To you, Caryn Stark. The reality is that when you think back on all the cases you`ve covered and analyzed, how often do you really see anyone kidnapped for money, a legitimate ransom case, or payback? I mean, this is not a Colombian drug lord case, OK? He worked as a dental assistant.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s the whole point, Nancy. It would make a lot more sense if this was a very wealthy family. So no, we see kidnappings so that people can take the child and abuse the child, sometimes turn them into a slave, as we`ve seen in some cases, but not for money. It doesn`t make any sense at all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Any marks, scars?
BECKY CELIS: Other than the window out, I can`t see anything else. And the door`s locked to outside, so they had to have jumped over the fence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see that it would quite simple for someone to get over this wall directly to Isabel`s bedroom window.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Neal Karlinsky, ABC News correspondent. Neal, what can you tell me about these footprints police say are Wolverine brand boot prints?
KARLINSKY: Apparently, they were on a utility box behind the house. Now, as you know, there`s a wall that goes all the way around the house, and depending on where in the house you are, the wall is actually higher or lower because the ground is at different heights.
You know, it`s a working-class neighborhood. That boot, as you said, it could belong to anyone. I`m sure police are analyzing that. But that back side of the house where they found the boot prints is also an alleyway. That`s where all the garbage was, and there was a lot of traffic going through there.
GRACE: Hey, take a look at your monitor if you can, Neal. We`ve got Greg Overzat, our producer, just stood up on the very box they`re talking about.
Neal, were any of these boot prints found in between the house and the wall? Because right now, I`m understanding boot prints on that box, which looks over the fence -- it`s on the other side of the wall away from the home.
KARLINSKY: Well, I can`t see the monitor that you have, but they did find other prints. And dogs certainly tracked to a house on the other side. But you know, police were scouring every house in this neighborhood. I mean, you had a high-level sex offender five doors down to the right as you walk out of the Celis door, 17 within a three-square-mile area.
We watched police interview and reinterview and go through homes all throughout there. In some of these documents, they talk about finding substances in the homes that they want to test and see if they`re blood or not. But it`s all incredibly random, and without the lab analysis, we don`t know what they found.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent "In Session," joining us from the field. Jean, what do you know?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, you know what`s interesting is that Sergio Celis, who we thought was the last one to have seen his daughter, said to investigators that he fell asleep on the couch, went to his bedroom at 5:00 AM in the morning and did not check on Isabel.
GRACE: Repeat, Jean.
CASAREZ: That he fell asleep on the sofa watching, we believe, the Diamondbacks baseball game rerun, woke up at 5:00 AM, went to his bedroom, did not check on his daughter. So when was the last time Isabel was even seen by a family member, 10:30 at night?
GRACE: You know what? You`re right, Jean. And Jean, what is your understanding as to where these Wolverine brand boot prints are found?
CASAREZ: On the utility meter box. And a meter box, we saw, is outside the property, and then there are some footprints about five feet away. And a meter box could be used to get up and over, so that is true.
CASAREZ: Here`s what I`m so concerned about...
GRACE: ... on the other side of the wall, Jean?
CASAREZ: And that`s a question and I think that`s an important question. Were those boot prints on the other side of the wall? Were they found there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell us your demands. Tell us what you want.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New evidence police have revealed from inside her own home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The room with the apparent blood, according to a blueprint of the house, is the missing 6-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is mom there, also?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She just left for work. I just called her and told her to get her butt home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is Sergio. That is him because his 10-year- old son is right there when he`s making the call.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From early on, very early on, there`s been talk of ransom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there were demands, please let us know something. Let us know something. Why is this happening? What is the reasoning behind it?
GRACE: And there you hear the only reference about demands made by Sergio Celis, the father.
Out to Neal Karlinsky, ABC news correspondent.
Is that where all of this is coming from, this line of investigation regarding a ransom demand because Sergio Celis and the public statement he made refers to what are your demands?
NEAL KARLINSKY, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: It`s unclear. It`s interesting. I was standing right in front of him when he said that and a lot of people were finding that curious. It`s something you hear more about in television shows, in the movies, and we were wondering where that came from.
In the police reports we know that the report of someone in the house owing money, and that`s what this is all about, according to the report. That comes from a witness, not a family member, in a statement to police. We don`t know the veracity of it.
GRACE: What can you tell us, Neal Karlinsky, about the dogs that searched the various homes?
KARLINSKY: This is interesting because we spoke, when I was there, to the next door neighbor who lives in a bedroom that is immediately a few feet across from Isabel Celis` bedroom. She told us, she tells police in the reports we now have that at 6:30 a.m., she was woken up by dogs barking loud, going crazy, she said, and we know that`s her dog and also dogs in the Celis home. More than one they had that barked routinely.
She also heard men`s voices. There are other reports of dogs barking.
Sergio, however, talks about waking up on the couch at 5:00 a.m., walking back to bed, not waking up until after 7:00, and he says he didn`t hear a thing. He didn`t hear any dogs.
GRACE: You know what, we spoke to her and she confirms what you`re saying, and your point is?
KARLINSKY: Well, why would he have not heard dogs? It seems to be an odd mismatch there between someone who is right next door and other neighbors and someone who was inside the house and who even concedes to police that his dogs bark at the drop of a hat.
GRACE: You`re right, Neal. With me ABC news correspondent Neal Karlinsky.
Out to lines.
Susan in Missouri. Hi, Susan. What`s your question?
SUSAN, CALLER, MISSOURI: I was just wondering if they ever said what was written inside of the encloses.
GRACE: No, they have not, Susan. We are still trying to find out.
Out to Wendy in, Ohio. Hi, Wendy. What`s your question?
WENDY, CALLER, OHIO: Hi. My question, if the blood was found inside the house, it`s surprising nobody would hear like, you know, a child being hurt, you know. So like, you know, I`m just wondering if the family or someone was in the house, you know, that night.
GRACE: Good question. I want to go to Bill Lloyd on that. But I want to quickly follow up on the blood. The blood like evidence found in the home, with renowned professor of forensic science out of the university of new haven, with us tonight, Dr. Henry Lee.
Henry, thank you so much for being with us.
HENRY LEE, PHD, RENOWNED PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC SCIENCE, UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAVEN: You`re most welcome.
GRACE: Dr. Lee, what do you make of the police decision not to field test the blood like substance found on the shower curtain stuffed in the family car?
LEE: OK. It`s pretty simple, Nancy. Basically here must be a small amount of blood, minutia amount of blood. Usually make the decision if we do the field it test, you are going to exhaust it, use up all the sample that will prohibit the future to do DNA. More likely to collect the whole item a modest sample must be very small. It took them almost a month to find out that`s blood.
Now, the next thing is this human blood? If it`s human blood, we`ll have to do some DNA. It`s her blood or somebody else. Also, we have to look at the blood, is this whole blood? It (INAUDIBLE) means, it may be washed. And, of course, we`ll look at the pattern. Is that an impact spatter pattern or a blood dripping or a transfer pattern?
So, very important thing they have to do. Of course given that`s her blood, this is occasional contact, transfer on the surface quite a while ago or very recent. Just like you measure the shoeprint that`s not really a footprint. That`s a shoeprint and the shoeprint, no, that`s two dimensional, three dimensional. It`s the indentation on the flat print. Of course we can look at the size and look at the width and determine more likely the individual`s height and the weight and, of course, trace the brand name of this shoeprint, determine what type of boots. Because so many different work boots, now we have a database of the work boot that`s easy to track down.
GRACE: To Dr. Bill Lloyd, I want to go back to Wendy in Ohio`s question, Dr. Lloyd.
She asked if there had been a death or injury resulting in blood being spilled on to the floor of Isabel`s room, why wouldn`t anyone else hear it, Dr. Lloyd?
DOCTOR BILL LLOYD, M.D., BOARD CERTIFIED SURGEON, PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, that`s the great mystery, Nancy. There are stories about dogs barking like crazy in the middle of the night. Dad is sleeping on a sofa just a few feet away from her. There are so many of these puzzle pieces that don`t fit together.
GRACE: But wouldn`t you agree there are ways for blood to be spent without noise?
LLOYD: Well, certainly. If you have someone silenced with a hand over the mouth, et cetera, and you`re injuring them enough to draw blood, you know, it`s possible if they were unconscious or drugged it would also be possible as well.
It would also be possible to date how long that blood has been there. Was it blood from perhaps a previous abuse event, or was it the current event that we`re talking about that led to the disappearance of this poor girl?
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation.
Marc, what do all of these developments mean to you?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT, FOUNDER, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, there`s a couple of things. First of all, the police might very well have told Sergio and Becky to be aware of the fact that somebody might call in with some kind of ransom demand. They certainly did that in our case.
Secondly, I said this many times, Polly`s mother slept through the entire kidnapping incident and she was mere feet away from Polly`s bedroom at the time. So I think these are things that need to be -- there`s something I have to say here, Nancy.
Today is national missing children`s date. And it`s national missing children`s date for a specific reason. President Ronald Reagan felt that child safety should be a national priority and that was based upon the kidnapping of Etan Patz which happened exactly 33 years ago today.
And I`ve heard more than once through this investigation, even today, somebody bringing up the cost of this investigation, that the police have spent so much money looking for this little girl. I never hear that in any other crime, the reference to the kind of money that`s being spent. And I`m absolutely insulted that anybody, whether it`s a cop or a reporter or anybody else would start making this connection between the amount of money that`s been spent on this investigation and the fact this little girl is not missing.
Their job, the police`s job, is to find and secure and keep us safe. It`s not to be bookkeeping. And I think anybody who is following the dollars and cents in this case has their priorities very mixed up.
GRACE: You know what, Marc Klaas, I heard the same thing and my response was equal to yours. The reality is I`m paying half my money to taxes. I`m happy that it`s being spent to try to find Isabel as opposed to paying some fat cat laid up kicked back on Capitol Hill spending my money. All right?
So they`re going to take our money whether we like it or not. And don`t get me wrong, IRS, I`m OK with it. But, what I`m saying is, good, spend it to find Isabel Celis. That`s how I feel about it, Marc. And I`m pretty sure you agree with me.
I want to go back to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent "In Session" joining us from the field right now.
So many developments. What do we know about Luminol tests in a red Toyota? We`ve now learned there is the car parked in the driveway, which is the a Acura Integra, and then the other car where Luminol results were positive, parked in the garage.
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: You know, there`s so much, Nancy, we learned from the beginning that now we can put together with some of the information from the reports. The red car that had the smashed in windshield that it doesn`t move, it tested positive with Luminol in the driver`s seat area. And we also know that pillows and a blanket were taken out of that vehicle.
Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, Karen Conti, Jason Oshins.
To Eleanor Odom, what now?
ELEANOR ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, what they`re looking at now are the people closest to Isabel. That`s nothing to get upset about. That is normal in these cases just like a ransom note is kind of TV stuff, so is a stranger coming in and abducting. I mean, the odds are against that. It happens. Don`t get me wrong as we`ve seen with Polly Klaas and others. But that`s why they look at the inner circle first and that`s what they`re focusing on.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t disagree with Eleanor by the same token, we`re not going to just expediently go move against the father.
GRACE: You already said that Oshins.
OSHINS: It sort of looks like that from --
GRACE: We`re talking about the truth.
OSHINS: I understand that. And we`re determined --
GRACE: Your theories what may or may not come into evidence. We`re not in a courtroom. You`re sitting in a TV studio.
OSHINS: I understand.
GRACE: And we can talk about the facts. There`s nobody here to suppress the evidence, Jason Oshins, so don`t start.
OSHINS: We`re not suppressing anything, we`re trying to be as broad as we can be and not narrow our focus to just the father.
KAREN CONTI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think we need to look at what the department of family service is doing, keeping the father away from those boys. Why are they doing that, Nancy? And I think they`re doing that because the father might be trying to poison those boys into not talking and telling the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still no sign of Isabel --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 911, what`s your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to report a missing person, my little girl. I believe she was abducted --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got woken up by my dogs. They were barking their heads off. Their dogs were just going crazy, too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Protective services banned Sergio from having contact with his children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are cooperating to the fullest extent. We will not stop looking for you.
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls.
Out to Lori in West Virginia. Hi, Lori. What`s your question?
LORI, CALLER, WEST VIRGINIA: Did the parents ever say anything about the polygraph test?
GRACE: Oh, Lori of West Virginia, you know, you really crack me up on that one.
No, they did not, and they have been asked point blank. Pull the sound, Liz.
You know, to Susan Constantine, body language expert, you have observed them over and over and over and analyzed them for us. Have you noticed how the mom a lot of times when they`re asked a question they`re always sitting together, she typically will have her arm over his arm --
SUSAN CONSTANTINE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Yes.
GRACE: A lot of times when they ask a question, she looks up at him as if -- you take it or she`s looking to him for guidance. I`m an amateur. What does that really mean?
CONSTANTINE: Well, she`s looking, you know, to see his response. And the other thing is, you`re right, that his hand is underneath hers. She is actually more in a dominant role, but when you see when he`s getting ready to sit down, he sits down very slowly. He moves -- his movements are very slow and kind of sheepish. So what I`m looking at here is when she`s looking --
GRACE: Go ahead.
CONSTANTINE: OK, when she is looking at her husband or he`s looking at his wife, he`s actually looking at her response to see how he`s going to respond.
GRACE: To Marc Harold, former APD, author of "observations of white noise." What do you think about the developments, Marc?
MARC HAROLD, FORMER OFFICER, ATLANTA PD, ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think the boot prints much of anything. It doesn`t tell us a whole lot. I think the idea that this is about ransom, I agree. I think you have to look just like everyone has said even if you don`t like to say it, you have to look at the people in the house, the people closest to the victim, and go from there. I think at this point they`re trying to use the physical evidence to ex clues people and then try to focus in on someone. But, I don`t think they have anyone they are really focusing in on yet. They are waiting for the lab results.
GRACE: You know, back to you, with us renowned professor of forensic science, Dr. Henry Lee.
Dr. Henry Lee, I hate to bring up bad memories of that double murder that you helped get acquitted, Orenthal James Simpson, but, let`s talk about footprints again. The Bruno Mali footprints.
GRACE: Go ahead, sir.
LEE: Nancy, you remember two type of shoeprints, one is Bruno Mali, the second one, the Bruno Mali is 14, size 14, and the second type of bloody shoeprint which is parallel size 10 which clearly tells us could be two individuals.
GRACE: And I think I know who one of them is. How are we going to get footprints in this case?
LEE: This case we should look at that shoeprint near -- near -- the wall, whether or not we can find similar shoeprint inside the house or next neighbor`s or any so-called linkage theory you can link together. Then, of course, the luminol which you just mentioned is on the front seat. We don`t know it`s in the back of the seat, how big it is, yet still have enough DNA to link that.
GRACE: Luminol shows a host of substances. It doesn`t have to be blood, does it?
LEE: Definite. Definite. You are smart. But, however, in a car seat, unless somebody used detergent or peroxide to clean up the car. So that by itself is becoming important. So a lot of physical evidence we have to look at.
The last time we talk about it or when you were asked the question as trace evidence could be the key of this case. Any hairs. Nip dust particle or pollen particle can give us clue.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, Karen Conti, Jason Oshins and also, Caryn Stark.
Let`s go crazy.
OK, Eleanor Odom, have you ever tried a footprint case? Because, you know, I know it`s been done, but that print could have been left by anybody.
ODOM: Well, believe it or not, Nancy, I have tried one that had a footprint in it. But, what we also had was other evidence.
ODOM: That`s one piece of the puzzle. And that makes it great.
OSHINS: Only to disprove. Prosecutor produced it. We were able to segment it out. It had nothing to do with it.
GRACE: You were able to segment it out? Did you get an acquittal?
OSHINS: We did.
GRACE: What`s the name of the case?
OSHINS: I don`t want to discuss it in public.
GRACE: Yes. you can`t remember because it didn`t happen.
OSHINS: It`s too old, Nancy, like me.
GRACE: Karen Conti?
CONTI: I`m not finding that jury is always buy that footprint evidence. You know, one way or the other because it can be manipulated. So, again, I believe there has to be other evidence with it.
GRACE: Yes. I think you`re right. And Caryn Stark, that can be behavioral evidence.
CARYN STARK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When we look at this father in particular, Nancy, he`s not allowed to visit his sons. There`s a past history. He doesn`t make sense even when he`s asking for, what are your demands? There are things that are confusing to me about him.
GRACE: Well, another thing is, you know, if they passed the polygraph, then put it out there. How`s that going to hurt the investigation? Back to Wendy`s question. And if you failed it, then there`s a problem. So those are the two choices in that answer.
STARK: And if they passed they would have it out there.
GRACE: You`re right, Caryn Stark.