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Author Topic: Travis Alexander of Mesa, AZ Found Murdered June 2008-Jodi Arias on Trial  (Read 1395412 times)
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2013, 11:13:05 AM »

Thanks MuffyBee for the updates!!!

You're welcome flamom

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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2013, 11:20:35 AM »

I'm watching the trial right now on TruTv In Session. Don't get where the defense is trying to go, with wound direction/blood/lack of blood, since she's already finally admitted to doing all of it.
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2013, 11:25:09 AM »

Hi Monkeys!!! It's been a long time since I posted....but wanted to know if anyone is watching this trial. She reminds me so much of CA! Long dark hair, high school drop out, photography as a hobby...and certainly the same sick mind!  Hope you're all doing well Smile

You've given an interesting observation mgoblue, in comparing Jodi to Casey Anthony.  I've not been "watching" the trial, but I'm following it here and there in the news.  It's just my opinion, but I think a lot of folks know the name "Jodi Arias" and not so much the name of the victim "Travis Alexander".  And that's part of the reason I included "Jodi Arias" in the subject line when I made the thread. Some folks might not have recognized the case if I hadn't included it.   Jodi's been given a lot of attention in the media, like Casey Anthony. I think many of us got really tired of Casey Anthony getting so much attention when it was her tiny victim Caylee that should have been in the forefront.  JMHO 

  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2013, 12:51:27 PM »

Hi everyone I was a commentator yesterday as a DV advocate from the NDVR (Registry). I read everything I could and in my humble opinion and not trying to rush to judgement I explained I felt the one who was abused and actually murdered when he tried to leave was the victim.

I have a 5" red binder full of evidence of abuse for my daughter. This woman has nothing nut lies and numerous stories.

It's such a sad and OVERKILL case.

Muffy I agree she seems to have taken cues from Casey Anthony.

Comments are my opinion, not fact, not malicious, a commentary on the topic, an exercise of 1st Amend Rights.
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2013, 01:08:06 PM »

Hi everyone I was a commentator yesterday as a DV advocate from the NDVR (Registry). I read everything I could and in my humble opinion and not trying to rush to judgement I explained I felt the one who was abused and actually murdered when he tried to leave was the victim.

I have a 5" red binder full of evidence of abuse for my daughter. This woman has nothing nut lies and numerous stories.

It's such a sad and OVERKILL case.

Muffy I agree she seems to have taken cues from Casey Anthony.



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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2013, 03:52:21 PM »


Investigation on Ohio Rape Case Still Ongoing; Sex and Lies Exposed in Arias Trial

Aired January 7, 2013 - 19:00   ET



And Jodi Arias on trial. Is there a contest to see which side can shock jurors the most? As prosecutors unleash a barrage of gruesome crime photos, the beautiful defendant`s attorneys try to smear the victim, Travis Alexander. Will jurors see him as a good Mormon? A decent man trying to find his way? Or a young man interested in kinky sex with a girl he never intended to marry?
Stay right there as we different into arias on the other side of the break.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- and began to stab him when he was in that defenseless, sitting position.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Travis grabbed her and spun her around. Afraid that he was going to hurt her Jodi was actually relieved when all he did was bend her over the desk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You haven`t been back in town.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Photographs from a digital camera that told a different story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had an immediate suspicion that it was Jodi who had done this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a print left on the wall in blood that led investigators to Jodi Arias.

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I would be (inaudible) right now if I had to answer to God for such a heinous crime.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In reality Jodi was Travis` dirty little secret.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Tonight, brace yourself, because the shock factor battle in the Jodi Arias murder trial is gearing up for another round tomorrow as we get ready to go back into Jodi Arias` courtroom tomorrow. And we will bring it all to you.

These are the grisly and graphic crime scene photos that, well, you got to wonder, are they keeping jurors up at night? The beautiful 32-year-old photographer is accused of stabbing her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander 29 times, slitting his throat from ear to ear and shooting him in the face.

Now, listen to Jodi`s police interview, which she gave by calling cops, less than 24 hours after Travis` body was found. And as you listen, consider that she ultimately admitted yes, I did kill him, but she argues it was self-defense. So listen to her lie.


ARIAS: Well, I just wanted to offer any assistance. I was a really good friend of Travis`. I heard that he was -- that he passed away, and that it was -- I don`t know. I`ve heard all kinds of rumors. I heard there was a lot of blood.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, she knows because she was there. Take a look at this crime scene photo. You might have to drop that graphic on the bottom to really get a look at it. It is the sink. Ok. This is the sink where prosecutors believe, after being stabbed, Travis staggers up to the sink in his own Mesa, Arizona home and he`s bleeding over the sink for considerable amount of time. This is just one of many, many graphic crime scene photos. There it is again -- the sink.

And then, after seeing that, this is a photo of the victim himself, Travis Alexander, dead in the shower. Ok? So, there`s a shock factor there, but the defense has its own shock factor -- shocking tidbits. They are painting Travis as a hypocritical man, playing a virginal Mormon by day but then having kinky sex with Jodi by night implying that he was some sort of sexual deviant. Of course he`s not here to defend himself.

We have to warn you the language is graphic that`s been used in court. But it is what has been said in open court so listen to this.


JENNIFER WILLMOTT, ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: As Travis would explain to Jodi, oral sex really isn`t as much of a sin for him as vaginal sex. And so he was able to convince her to give him oral sex. And later in their relationship, Travis would tell her that anal sex really isn`t much of a sin compared to vaginal sex. And so he was able to persuade her to allow him to have anal sex with her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think about this case? Call me 1-877-JVM- SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Straight out to my very special guest Troy Williams, with KRCL Radio. What`s fascinating about you is that you were raised as a Mormon and you can give us insights into this religion.

And we do this with respect to religion. We didn`t bring it up. It`s been repeatedly mentioned throughout the trial so far from opening statements, into cross-examination, and direct examination. So my basic question to you is, is there -- this is a 30-year-old man, who died a very violent death. He was not married. And both the prosecution and the defense acknowledge he was having sex with Jodi Arias. In fact there were photographs of them in provocative sexual poses, in a camera that also shows him dead and dying.

So, my question to you is, is there an inherent conflict for these young men who are religious, where they`re not married but yet they`re still trying to maintain this ideal of no premarital sex? Sometimes into their 30s?

TROY WILLIAMS, KRCL RADIO: That`s right. The second prophet of the church Brigham Young famously said that any single man not married by the age of 27 is a menace to society. Now, of course, that`s kind of a folk story. But we tell it a lot here in Utah. So you can see that the kind of pressures the young people are on -- under to get married and to get married fast.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But he didn`t get married. He didn`t get married fast.

WILLIAMS: That`s right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, what happens then?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: In other words -- yes, go ahead.

WILLIAMS: This is where it becomes very difficult, because the libidinal drive is so natural, it`s so healthy, it`s so ordinary. And yet for people who are fighting it, fighting to resisting the temptation for masturbation; resisting, you know, any kind of sexual contact, we crave human sexual intimacy.

And what happens, as young Mormons who are fighting that, is that we -- we see it as -- as the adversary, Satan, tempting us, that these carnal desires are bad, something to be repressed, something to be fought against. And that -- when you repress those very natural, beautiful libidinal energies, they often pop out in some very unflattering ways.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s a very interesting analysis. And I thank you for that. The lead investigator revealed some sexually explicit and degrading messages that Travis sent Jodi when they were having an argument. Now we`ve got to warn you the wording is graphic but this is what was said in open court.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember seeing e-mails in which Mr. Alexander referred to Miss Arias as a quote (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection -- hearsay.






VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, the shock factor in this case has been extraordinary. Discuss -- you`ve been in court -- discuss the two phrases that came out that were especially explicit, one involved a sex toy and the other one involved Jodi Arias` private areas. What exactly was said? And what is the strategy behind this graphic language?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV: Do you want me, Jane, to say what you bleeped out?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean you can say --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You were in court. You heard it. I didn`t. I wasn`t in court -- you were the one in court so --


KARAS: Ok, all right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whatever you heard, you can tell me.

KARAS: Ok. This was the defense attorney cross-examining the lead investigator. The case agent Detective Flores, who will be back more in the case; this was a first time on the stand. And the defense is trying to show that Travis Alexander was very disparaging and degrading toward Jodi Arias, and just held her in the lowest esteem. So, he said to her once, although, one might argue, he meant it in a nice way, that she was a "three-hole wonder". But then he also, in a different -- at a different time, called her a whore and a slut.

Well, the prosecution got up, on redirect, angry that this image is out there, it seems, because he was very fired up, Juan Martinez, and he said, let`s put this in context, with the "whore" and the "slut" comment, and he -- he had Flores read an instant message between them where Travis says to her, sometimes he thinks "I was little more than a dildo with a heartbeat to you."

In other words, she was the one who always wanted to have sex. She -- that is what she was obsessed with and she was obsessed with him. It wasn`t that he was treating her so badly. It was quite -- on the contrary, she wanted him, when he didn`t want her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the reason why this is important is this is the heart of the case. You can`t redact the most important aspects of the case, the ones that everybody is talking about, because they reveal specifically what happens behind closed doors. And the courtroom is one of the only venues in society where we hear what`s really going on. Things that sometimes people don`t tell their doctors or their pastors or their psychiatrists and yet we hear it in open court and we hope that it informs our own lives.

More on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On June 9th, 2008, Travis Alexander`s friends discovered his decomposing body in the shower of his master bathroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom. We hadn`t heard from him for awhile. We think he`s dead.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: An unbelievable first couple of days in the Jodi Arias trial. Court resumes tomorrow and we here on this show at 7:00 p.m. Eastern are all over this trial to the very end.

Stay here, join me every night for complete coverage. I`ll have producers and reporters on the ground inside the courtroom to bring you the very latest. And we`ll have more on the other side of the break.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing you notice is all this blood just outside the hallway here on the carpet. Take a look at the map again. Here is the blood that you just saw and this is the hallway that leads down to the bathroom. This is where it starts.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Such a bloody crime scene. And take a look at that. We`re going to see more of this tomorrow. They`re expecting the medical examiner on the stand. And the prosecution is inundating the jurors with images of a very, very bloody and extended crime.

This young man, this Travis Alexander, 30 years old, motivational speaker, successful salesman, he did not die a quick death. This was a long, slow, agonizing torture. Now the defense claims that Jodi Arias killed Travis in self-defense because he had been psychologically abusing her and sexually manipulating her. Listen to one episode that the defense described.


WILLMOTT: She knew that the one thing that calms his temper the quickest is sex. So as she`s telling him it`s ok, I`ll fix it, don`t worry, Travis grabbed her and spun her around. Afraid that he was going to hurt her, Jodi was actually relieved when all he did was bend her over the desk.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Rene Sandler, criminal defense attorney, the defense is basically smearing the victim, blaming the victim, which is making the family of the victim very angry as well as his many supporters. She sort of claims, without going into specifics about the fight, that oh, she dropped his new camera, there`s the camera from the crime scene photos, and he got angry with her.

But that`s pretty much it. There`s really no detail there. A lot of people, considering that she lied, first said she wasn`t there, then she said oh, it was a home invasion by two strangers, and now is admitting she did it, but says it was self-defense, they`re thinking that this self- defense is a crock and it`s not going to work. What say you Rene Sandler?

RENE SANDLER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What I say, Jane -- first of all, thanks for having me on the show -- is that this is self-defense, absolute self-defense. The very fact that you can argue to support a first degree premeditated intentional murder are the facts to support self-defense.

I would disagree about smearing the victim. This relationship is on trial where you have a victim that led essentially a dual life. Very, very relevant to motive, to the understanding the relationship, the relationship is on trial here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jon Leiberman, if everyone who was a hypocrite could -- we would have a lot of people whose throats are slashed and who are shot and who are stabbed 29 times, if hypocrisy entitles somebody -- just because somebody is a hypocrite doesn`t mean they have to die a violent death. We`re all hypocrites.

Let any of us stand up and say I`ve never done something that is in opposition to something I`ve said. I certainly can`t say that.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I just couldn`t disagree more with her, Jane. I`ve got to tell you, attacking the victim`s credibility. The sex is a smokescreen. There`s no way to get from all of this sex talk to self-defense. There just -- there just isn`t.

And there`s so much physical evidence in this case, there`s just so much piling up in this case, that first of all, if you`re going to talk about credibility, Jodi Arias has zero credibility. She changed her story three, pushing four, times. So there`s no way to go after the victim`s credibility when this woman who`s on trial for murder has no credibility herself. And the sex I`m telling you is just a smokescreen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Rene?

SANDLER: What about the crime scene? We have used the word stabbed, 27 to 29 stab wounds.

LEIBERMAN: Is that self-defense? And then shooting him?

SANDLER: It is absolutely.

LEIBERMAN: At close range?

SANDLER: It is absolutely. Are those stab wounds or slash wounds? Are they punctures? Are they superficial? What are they? What is the characteristic of each of those 27 wounds? You can`t have a conclusory opinion here that it was murder. First degree premeditated murder. Absolutely not.

LEIBERMAN: She had no defensive wounds. Supposedly she was a tough woman, she had no defensive wounds on her? This was --

SANDLER: You don`t know that. You don`t know that.

LEIBERMAN: -- absolutely not self-defense.

SANDLER: You absolutely can`t make that statement.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there is a factor here. He`s a much bigger guy than she is. She`s very petite. So, that could be one problem that the prosecution might have to explain.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Carol, Indiana, your question or thought, Carol, Indiana.

CAROL, INDIANA (via telephone): I`ve got a question and a thought, Jane. How are you? And thank you for taking my call.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re very welcome.

CAROL: Ok. It was said in Court TV today that she was living with this guy and his son. They had a house together. When he was not being her boss anymore, and his job downsized that`s how she got to this convention. Now Travis is very outgoing, very friendly, and probably just walked up to her and just said Hi. I`ve done that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, and Carol what you`re referring to is that Jodi Arias had a relationship with an executive at a spa, I believe, before she met Travis Alexander. And that executive had a child. And they had, like I think a four-year relationship that was sort of in the normal range. And that then she sort of drifted away from him and met Travis Alexander. So the question is, is she bouncing from guy to guy, looking for somebody who`s going to give her something? We`ll see.

More on the other side.


WILMOTT: Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander. There is no question about it. The million dollar question is what would have forced her to do it?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well this Jodi Arias case Arias case gets started up tomorrow. The medical examiner expected to take the stand and talk about these 29 stab wounds. You just heard the defense attorney say, oh, well maybe they`re just scratch marks. Well, we`re going to hear from the medical examiner.

We know that she killed him, so they can`t have been little scratch marks, at least not all of them. There was one right through the heart.

More on the other side.



ARIAS: (inaudible) And that we did with the intention of -- that wasn`t a one-time incident. I mean, there were many times where, you know --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You take pictures.

ARIAS: Yes, pictures, whatever, any kind of media, and it was deleted.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Travis was 30 years old when the woman you just heard from, Jodi Arias, killed him. And Travis was a Mormon. In the Mormon faith it is ideal to marry well before the age of 30. Listen to what the victim, Travis Alexander, himself, said during a speech about being single. This is on YouTube.


TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MURDER VICTIM: The first thing I would hear a lot of is, by the way, he`s single. And, that`s right, I am. Ladies, come get me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you can see how friends consider him so charming and said he was such a great speaker and a wonderful guy. A girl he dated after Jodi Arias wrote in her blog that Travis was known as, quote, the old guy in the ward. In the Mormon religion there were wards where people gather or based on -- I`m not sure exactly how the wards worked. But he was a 30-year-old man with a normal sex drive, but that sex drive was in direct conflict with his faith.

I want to go to Pastor Ed Young, pastor of the Fellowship Church and co- author of "Sex-periment". This isn`t just the Mormon faith, Catholicism, preaches against sex before marriage, premarital sex, a lot of religions do. In this day and age where we`re not living in isolated rural areas where we don`t -- we`re living in an era where we can see everything, the most shocking, x-rated stuff right on this little thing we hold in our hands. How do people of faith reconcile their sexual urges with these church teachings?

PASTOR ED YOUNG, FELLOWSHIP CHURCH: Well, the deal is it`s not that we don`t think about sex. We don`t think deeply enough about it. And God made it for greatness. We shouldn`t feel guilty. But God says use the content of sex within the Context which is marriage. And I know scores and scores of people who abstain until marriage whether they`re 20-something, 30-something, 40-something and they have great sex lives.

So I think it`s kind of ridiculous to go, hey, I can`t control myself. I`m just a dog in heat. I`m a spawning salmon. I`ve got to do that. I give human beings more credit than that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, but by the same token I heard a psychologist say, and it made a lot of sense to me, that the intellect is a very low defense against sexual urges, and that essentially your mind will begin rationalizing and justifying the sex because the biology is pushing you.

It`s the same reason why abstinence only programs don`t work very well. We`ve seen that time and time again where best of intentions but, oops, suddenly the young lady is pregnant because she is, quote/unquote, abstaining.

Brenda, Pennsylvania, quickly, your question or thought. Brenda?

BRENDA, PENNSYLVANIA (via telephone): I would like to know about her defense counsel. Is he private counsel? Is he court appointed? My experience with court appointed is they don`t do anything for you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. On the other side of the break I believe that these are public defenders. We`re going to have our own Beth Karas answering that question.

Stay right there. We`ll be back.



MARIE HALL, VICTIM`S FRIEND: Even a few weeks before, like before we went, again I told him Travis maybe you should take somebody else to Cancun with you, and there wasn`t anyone else that he wanted to take.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was the Mormon woman that Travis Alexander was pursuing, wanted to take on vacation. And at the same time, of course, he`s having a secret sexual relationship with Jodi Arias, at least on the last day of his life he was.

Beth Karas, what about Jodi`s attorneys? Are they public defenders or private?

KARAS: No, they are private attorneys but the taxpayers are paying for them because they`re court-appointed. She doesn`t have any money. She did have public defenders but they`re off the case now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Wendy Walsh, psychologist, your thoughts briefly on this whole issue of premarital sex.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that -- you know, to think that sex is urgent is a crazy idea. Yes, people can withhold, even young men, Jane. So I think worrying about, you know, did he have repression that was suddenly erupting? Sex isn`t the issue here. It`s murder, Jane, and I believe she murdered him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you 100 percent. I think it`s a distraction, but as we have seen in other high-profile cases, they`re not like ordinary cases. And sometimes when the jury is distracted and when the jury is confused, whoops, reasonable doubt. We don`t know.

We`re all over this tomorrow -- big day in court. Join us for that.


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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2013, 03:58:57 PM »


The Steubenville Rape; Bombshell Beauty Murder Trial

Aired January 7, 2013 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet at a conference in Vegas and fall hard for each other, but when the flame burns out and they break up, she moves 300 miles to pursue him, even converting to Mormonism to get her man. Then 30-year-old Travis Alexander`s dead body found slumped over in the shower of his five-bedroom luxury home, shot, stabbed 29 times and beaten to death, the violence so brutal, it resembles a mob hit.

Bombshell tonight. The Jodi Arias jury needs an extra day off after seeing horrific digital camera photos actually snapped during the grisly murder, including a blood-drenched crime scene, detailing the very last moments of Alexander`s life. This as bizarre details emerge about Arias and Alexander`s sex lives, as Arias cries buckets in front of the jury.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dramatic trial that we`ve been covering of the woman charged with the brutal murder of her ex-boyfriend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state of Arizona versus Jodi Ann (ph) Arias.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Travis, what can I say to you that I haven`t already said? I am so grateful for the endless hours of conversation and the amazing experiences we`ve shared."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had sex with him to put him into a powerless state.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rewarded that love of Travis (INAUDIBLE) Alexander by sticking a knife in his chest.

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I heard that he was -- he passed away and that it was -- I don`t know. I heard all kinds of rumors. I heard there was a lot of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Covered in blood, like (INAUDIBLE) lots of blood pooling and smears.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now her story is she killed Travis in self-defense.

ARIAS: He works out really, really hard. He`s so strong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi had to make a choice. She would either live or she would die.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With 29 stab wounds?



GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. The Jodi Arias jury needs an extra day off after seeing horrific digital camera photos actually snapped during the grisly murder, including a blood-drenched crime scene, detailing the very last moments of Travis Alexander`s life. This as bizarre details emerge about Arias and Alexander`s sex lives, as Arias insists on crying buckets in front of the jury.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was around April that you last saw him, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You haven`t -- you haven`t been back in town since then?

ARIAS: No, I haven`t at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you have physically been here since you left?

ARIAS: Since I moved, no, I haven`t.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Jodi now admits that was a lie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On that horrible day, Jodi believed that Travis was going to kill her. He threatened to kill her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it because of self-defense? There`s no way in hell it was. And not one person that knows Travis has come out and said, yes, he was -- he was that person.

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: She is claiming that he was verbally abusive. The first time we hear any physical abuse claim by her is the incident where she slashes him, a smiley face slash, from ear to ear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you here in town or were you --

ARIAS: I was in Yreka, California.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About 12 hours after Travis was murdered, she was up here in Utah and out to eat with us.


GRACE: We are live and taking your calls.

Jodi Arias crying buckets in court in front of a jury. But I noticed -- out to you, Beth Karas, legal correspondent, "In Session," joining us there on the scene, that when she was speaking to police, one of her several stories she gave or when she talked on "Inside Edition" or "48 Hours" she never cried during that. But she was in front of this jury she`s really the -- she`s a sob sister.

BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Good point, Nancy. I`m not aware of her showing emotion like that unless it`s in court, and she started crying right with the opening statements. I suspect that she`ll be emotion almost every day.

GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, also "In Session," the medical examiner poised to take the stand, and it`s perfectly set up because the last testimony the jury hears is from a crime scene tech. We`re going to hear a little more from her. But the crime scene tech is laying out where the bloody fingerprints were, where the blood spatter was, and the sequence of events that forensically they can determine. The medical examiner is going to shore all that up.

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s right. And he`s - - it`s going to take a long time, too, because there were so many wounds and he is going to go through all of the stab wounds, where they were, and then probably recant what we heard in opening statements of --

GRACE: Good lord. Jean, Jean, look at your monitor. Are you seeing this?

CASAREZ: I am, Nancy.

GRACE: Are you seeing -- good lord. And that`s the shell casing right there. The -- I believe it was a .22 or a .25 caliber, was lodged in his - - went in through the right -- above the eyebrow, landed and lodged into the left cheek, showing he was already down at the time. And this.

Beth Karas, walk me through how they think the order of the attack went.

KARAS: OK. They`re about the same height, Jodi and Travis. And so she had to get him -- but he`s much stronger -- in a vulnerable position. She was taking photos of him naked in the shower, from the waist up, but then the final photo she took of him, he`s crouched down in the shower. It`s not a very revealing photo but it was displayed to the jury. And once he`s in that vulnerable position crouched down --


GRACE: Beth, Beth, we`re showing one of those right now. Hold on, Beth. Hold on, Beth. I know you can`t see this, right there in front of the courthouse.


GRACE: But right now we`re showing part of his body in the shower crumpled up in the foot of the shower. There are others that we`re not going to show. They`re extremely grizzly.

Go ahead as to the order of the attack, Beth.

KARAS: OK. So once she has him down and she takes a photo, she stabbed him in the heart. That is what the prosecutor said in his opening statement. But it was a fatal wound but not immediately fatal, so he`s fighting with her. He has wounds on his hands that look as though he has grabbed the blade of the knife and then there`s some, perhaps a struggle, there`s blood all around the bathroom. He was in the shower stall.

There`s a tub then there`s a little toilet area and there`s blood all around there. And then across from the tub is sink, there`s a right and a left sink. And at the right sink the prosecutor said he stood over that sink. And now we do have photos of that bloody sink and he`s dripping into the sink. He`s probably spitting. He`s being stabbed at that point and then he crawls down the hall, or walks down the hall, collapses and she slit his throat.

You know, one thing I don`t understand, Matt Zarrell, is why Jodi Arias, the defendant on trial for murdering -- stabbing 29 times, shooting, beating her boyfriend. Here is the reality. I`ll tell you what happened, Matt Zarrell. She comes over, uninvited, I think. They have sex all day. They have sex all night. Then he tells her, yes, I`m not canceling my trip to Cancun with the other woman and she went off.

I mean, it`s really not any more complicated than that in my mind. But this is what I don`t understand, Matt Zarrell, why are they referring to Jodi Arias as his dirty little secret? What`s secret about Jodi Arias? I don`t understand that.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Well, Nancy, the big secret was that they were having sex because, according to the Book of Mormon, they are not allowed to have sex until they are married. So because of --


GRACE: Whoa, whoa. So the big secret is they had sex? That`s the secret? That`s the big secret?

ZARRELL: Is that they were having a sexual relationship and, meanwhile, while they were having a sexual relationship, he in public could date good Mormon women as opposed to Jodi Arias who was, as the defense put it, his dirty little secret.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Jean Casarez, didn`t she become a Mormon? As a matter of fact, didn`t Travis Alexander actually baptize her in the Mormon faith? I don`t know how that works. But --

CASAREZ: He introduced her to Mormonism. He had missionaries go to her home and he baptized her. You better believe it. That was right at the beginning.

GRACE: OK. Now back to you, Matt Zarrell. What`s this business about him convincing her that vaginal sex was a sin but anal and oral sex is not a sin?

ZARRELL: Well, what the defense said in their opening statement --

GRACE: I never heard anything like that in the Book of Mormon.

ZARRELL: Well, what the defense said in their opening statement is they claim that Travis would explain to Arias that all sex was not as much of a sin as vaginal sex so he convinced her to have oral sex. He used the same mode for anal sex telling her it wasn`t viewed as much of a sin in the church and that way he was able to convince her to perform those sex acts.

GRACE: OK. Hold on just a moment. Wait. The defense is trying to claim, are they not, Beth Karas, that he treated her like a sex slave? But she was the one, after they broke up, that moved about 300 miles to try to get him back.

KARAS: Absolutely. You`re right. That is what they`re trying to say and she did move after they broke up. She eventually left and moved to Yreka, California, 1,000 miles away. And it is from 1,000 miles away that she drove heading there two days before killing him. So if he was an abuser, the defense needs to explain why she drove 1,000 miles to visit her abuser.



ARIAS: I came over and I cleaned his house a lot. He sort -- he paid me a little bit every month to keep his house nice and clean, sort of like a housekeeper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember seeing an e-mail from Mr. Alexander to Miss Arias where he provides her a picture of the French maid outfit that he would like her to don when she cleans his apartment or his home, excuse me?


GRACE: If every man who dreams of somebody wearing a French maid costume committed a crime, there`d be no men left. They`d all be in jail right now.

I want to go out to a special guest joining me right now live at the courthouse. Taylor Searle, who`s a very dear friend of Travis Alexander`s.

Mr. Searle, thank you for being with us. You know, I`m a crime victim. I thought I knew all about representing criminals until I had children, a boy and a girl, and I cannot even imagine all the love, the time, the energy, the money, the backbreaking effort to raise Travis Alexander into a fine young man. I mean, he was handsome, he was a motivational speaker, he was a hard worker, he was getting successful, and then here comes Arias.

Did you know Arias before the murder?


GRACE: In what context? How did you meet her and what was your impression?

SEARLE: The first time I met her was at Travis` house actually. He had a group of people over and we were making cookies together. And I remember being pretty put off by her because she seemed very possessive of Travis and possessive of his house. And it was the first time I had met her. And as one of his bros I had assumed that I would have known if there was someone that should lay claim to his house and his time, but -- so I didn`t really like her because she seemed super possessive and --

GRACE: Like what? What did she do?

SEARLE: Because that was my first thought.


GRACE: To be possessive? What did she do to give you that impression?

SEARLE: She -- I had been his former roommate. I had lived there for a while and had been there a lot and spent lots of time with him. And when I walked in it was kind of like, hi, I`m Jodi, welcome to my home, kind of a feeling. I don`t remember the exact words, but that`s kind of the gist of what she said. And my thought was, who are you? I`ve never met you.

GRACE: You know what, I get it. I get it because I spoke at length with another of Travis` friends and they said basically our mind was totally open, but after we spent time with her we let him know we want to see him but don`t bring Arias along.

I`m just trying to figure out how she got it over on Alexander that she could actually kill him. She obviously was not his physical match and, also, all this -- this is about treating her like a sex slave. He obviously wanted to marry within his religion. And I get it. That`s one of the top 10 things that married couples fight about. Religion. How are you going to raise your children?

I don`t know enough about the Mormon religion to understand all this. What`s this business he`s telling her that vaginal sex is a sin but anal and oral sex is not a sin?

SEARLE: Well, in the -- in the Mormon religion, especially when you graduate high school and start to find people to court, the religion`s pretty strict about not having sex until marriage. And so there`s a lot of room for people to try to find gray areas so that they can explore sexuality with whoever they`re dating without actually breaking the rules, and, I mean, the religion really doesn`t say, oh, that`s OK and this is sex and that`s not sex, and it`s kind of open to everyone to try to find rationalization. To do whatever they want. No one is going to defend his rationale but everyone has been there before, everyone has tried to find a line that they won`t cross or will cross. Trying to --


GRACE: Well, are you saying that -- is that true? Is what she said is true? Because I find it so hard to believe that a guy would say that --

SEARLE: It`s definitely not true that --

GRACE: -- and that somebody would actually believe it.

SEARLE: Well, and I don`t know the context of where he said that or how.

GRACE: Or if?

SEARLE: I could imagine him saying that as a joke, I could imagine him seeing it serious. Or if. I mean, everything she says seems to be a lie. But I mean it`s completely imaginable that every Mormon guy has those same questions of what`s OK and what`s not OK, trying to follow the religious beliefs.

GRACE: Question, Taylor. Were you in close contact with Travis when he found out, for instance, that his bank account and his Facebook had been hacked into? His bank account was hacked into by Jodi Arias. I think that`s out there. That`s not even -- they haven`t even contended that that`s not true, contested it in court. I mean, that`s pretty damning.

SEARLE: Well, Travis is --

GRACE: I don`t know that I would even let her --


SEARLE: Well, Travis has -- he had open arms to everyone. Everyone was his friend. And he never assumed that someone would try to take advantage of him. And when he had found that she had stolen journals, slashed tires, broken into Facebook, bank accounts, all that, it was just like him to try to give more chances to be a good friend to him or to forgive and forget or -- and it just seems that she was the wrong person to be that way with.

GRACE: Did you ever have an inkling or a premonition or a fear that she could become violent with Travis?

SEARLE: You could call it premonition if you want, but the rationale thought -- the rationale mind never wants to assume something like this could actually happen. So I doubt I actually thought that she would hurt him, but I did mention to him at one point right before he was killed that he -- I mean, I asked him if he should be afraid of her, that she might try to hurt him because of the escalation.

GRACE: Wow. What did he say?

SEARLE: I mean, I`m sure he just brushed it off. I don`t remember the exact words. It was just like, she`s harmless.


SEARLE: What`s she going to do?

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Randy Kessler, Atlanta, Joe Lawless, New York.

All right, Kessler, what`s your defense?




KESSLER: Look, she might be accused of being a liar, a cryer, overconfident the jury is not going to convict her. But the problem is going to be if she testifies. If she doesn`t testify, they still have the burden of proof and they don`t have it yet locked up. She`s a bad person, is she a murderer? That`s a lot to prove.


LAWLESS: A lot of this goes to the question of state of mind.

GRACE: Joe Lawless, I think that the DNA evidence, her bloody palm print on the scene and her taking digital camera photos of herself having sex with him about a couple of minutes before he`s dead pretty much sums it up that she did it.

LAWLESS: Well, it shows she did it, Nancy, but you don`t know the degree of the crime. First-degree murder, involuntary manslaughter. I don`t know if she`s been examined by a psychiatrist yet. There`s no question she killed him. The question is going to be the when, the why and the how, and that`s something the evidence is going to have to show. The rest of this stuff is garbage. It`s going to be the forensics and the psychiatric that`s going to determine the degree of guilt.


GRACE: We are taking your calls. Lori, California. Hi, Lori, what`s your question?

LORI, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi. First, let me say, Nancy, that I think you`re an awesome lady for what you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

LORI: Very much, I mean that a lot. My question is, do you know anything about her past relationships or her ex-boyfriends? Was she stalking them? Did she have --

GRACE: You know what, Lori, I`ve been wondering the same thing, because, you know, there`s just got to be another guy in her background that she stalked.

What do we know, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: We know through opening statements that she was in a relationship when she met Travis Alexander. They had been going together for four years. They actually were living together. They had actually together made a down payment on a home, and once she met Travis, then she broke it off with that guy. But it seems that it was a normal relationship.

GRACE: To you, Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, New York.
Dr. Leslie, it`s hard for me to believe that if he was as awful as she says he was, she moves away, then she -- they break up. She moves 300 miles to get back to him?

DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right. You know, there is battered woman syndrome, Stockholm`s syndrome. All that`s true, except that her behaviors here don`t fit those profiles. All the evidence that you`re listing about her behavior show that she had choice and volition, and I don`t think her crying in the courtroom is going to help her one bit, because ultimately the jury will see through that.

GRACE: And to you, Woody Tripp, former police commander. Woody, how hard is it for a woman to actually stab a guy to death? A lot of people say that`s physically impossible, but not if you catch then unawares. I mean, about two minutes before the stabbing goes down literally two minutes, he`s in the shower, taking a shower. The next thing you know, he`s dead.

WOODROW TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Well, Nancy, if you couple the intense anger, when you have someone stabbed over 20 times and shot, there is an anger there that was unleashed. And when you couple that with the surprise -- you know, we had an Atlanta police lieutenant back in the early `90s, and you may recall this, coming out of the shower, very significant, very similar.

And his wife literally shot him as she came out, racked him up in the shower curtain and ultimately dumped him in a lake. And again, he was about to leave her. This appears from the situation that she definitely had an anger and I think that`s where it was coming from. It was over, and she didn`t want it to be.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now you say intimate, does that include like a sexual relationship with him?

ARIAS: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Jodi`s attorneys argued Travis Alexander, a devout Mormon, was actually --


GRACE: Back to a very dear friend of Travis Alexander`s, Taylor Searle.

Taylor, how did you discover that your friend had been murdered?

SEARLE: Well, a lot of people had been calling me and asking me where Travis was, and I had mixed up time and I assumed that he was in Cancun. When it came to my attention that he was not in Cancun, because Mimi, who he was going to Cancun with, was calling me and asking where he was, we all headed over to his house to see what was up, and eventually Mimi and some other friends found him, as I was driving there, so we all found him that night and called everyone we knew and gathered around and just consoled each other.

GRACE: Could you tell me what Jodi Arias was like at the funeral, at the memorial?

SEARLE: She approached me and was somber and said it was unfortunate that we met again under these circumstances, and she was looking for a program that showed the speaker arrangement and the picture of him, and she was -- she was the first person that I thought had done it on my list, so I was really -- didn`t want to really talk to her, so I kept it short, and went on my way.

But she seemed to -- she seems like she was trying to act sad like the rest of us. And even attended some additional memorial services with small groups of friends on the days that followed.

GRACE: I want to go very quickly to Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining me out of Philadelphia.

Dr. Manion, I believe that the medical examiner in this case is going to be a star witness. What will we learn?

DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, he`s going to talk about the size of the -- of the knife that was used. It looks to me like it`s a butcher knife. It has at least a blade at least 6.5 inches long, an inch wide.

He`s going to talk about the fatal injuries that took place. The fatal injuries are the stab wounds to the superior vena cava, that`s the large vein going into the heart, and the second fatal would would be the inception of the carotid artery on the right side. So those are the two main fatal --

GRACE: Right. With me, Dr. Bill Manion out of Philly.

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« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2013, 04:13:05 PM »

Jodi Arias trial: She hacked into Travis Alexander's bank account (Video)
January 8, 2013

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Jodi Arias: Sex and Secrets on Trial; Will Crime-Scene Photos Sway Jodi Arias Jury?

Aired January 8, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Graphic and grisly images in the Jodi Arias death penalty trial today, as the prosecution makes it clear that Travis Alexander died a violent, slow and very painful death at the hands of Jodi Arias.

Will the jury look at these brutal images and believe Jodi Arias` claims of self-defense, or will they call it a rage killing?


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Jodi Arias, back in court for day three of her death penalty trial, with a new look and fresh tears. Will the jury believe her emotional outpourings? Or will they think she`s just acting, like she did when she called detectives and pretended she knew nothing about Travis Alexander`s death?

Tonight, the secrets revealed in today`s testimony. And the very graphic photographs of the victim and the crime scene, as prosecutors try to prove Jodi Arias was a jealous woman, obsessed with Travis, and filled with rage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s dead. He`s in his bedroom in the shower.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had what appeared to be dried blood on his neck. Appeared to be a neck wound from ear to ear. His face was dark purple, almost black.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that`s been bothering him.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander. The million-dollar question is what would have forced her to do it?

JODI ARIAS, MURDER SUSPECT: I didn`t commit a murder. I didn`t hurt Travis. I would never hurt Travis. I`d never harm him physically.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this self-defense?

WILLMOTT: What would have forced Jodi? It was Travis` continual abuse. And on June 4th of 2008, it had reached a point of no return.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, the Jodi Arias murder trial turns unbelievably grisly as the prosecution lays out the bloody crime scene and the gruesome autopsy photos. Will the horrifically violent way Travis Alexander died show the jury this was a rage killing, and not self-defense?

Good evening, Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

The gorgeous 32-year-old photographer admits -- yes, she admits -- "Yes, I stabbed my ex-boyfriend 29 times, slit Travis Alexander`s throat from ear to ear and shot him in the face." But she claims it was all in self-defense.

Travis` family shook their heads with anger and grief. They sobbed in court as they watched this parade of gruesome photos. And we have to warn you, these photos are exceptionally graphic. These evidence photos show Travis` bruised, bloody, decaying, body.

His hands. Look at them. They tell a horror story. Look at the knife wounds. Deep cuts that are plain to the naked eye.

The prosecutor seemed intent on showing the pain Travis went through in a long, agonizing, even torturous death, involved stabbing and throat slitting and a shot through the head. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My examination did show that the jugular vein and the carotid artery on the right side were both cut.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How deep is this wound?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It goes all the way back to the spine. So it`s three inches, four inches.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: At first Jodi Arias told cops, "Oh, I wasn`t even there when Travis died." And then she said, "Oh, it was a home invasion and I escaped."

Well, now she says, "Yes, I killed him, but in self-defense after repeated psychological abuse and sexual degradation."

Listen to this. And we have to warn you, this language is graphic, but it was said in open court.


WILLMOTT: As Travis would explain to Jodi, oral sex really isn`t as much of a sin for him as vaginal sex. And so he was able to convince her to give him oral sex. And later in their relationship, Travis would tell her that anal sex really isn`t much of a sin compared to vaginal sex. And so he was able to persuade her to allow him to have anal sex with her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So will a jury believe Jodi Arias killed in self- defense? Or did the prosecutor today prove how a petite Jodi could have savagely murdered her much larger ex-boyfriend?

I want to hear from you. Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to our very own senior producer, Selin Darkalstanian. Selin, you were in court today as these graphic photos were shown. What was it like, and what was the reaction for victim Travis Alexander`s family?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Jane, for the first time today, actually, Travis Alexander`s family got up and walked out of the courtroom. Before, when they were showing graphic photos earlier last week, they were looking down. They were crying. They were trying to cover their faces.

But today it was just too much. They got up, and they walked out of the courtroom. You have to understand, these are horrific, horrific autopsy photos, different angles of stab wounds. They had, you know, certain photos of his back with stab wounds, nine wounds going in one direction, showing, you know, stab wounds going like this. They had -- the skull has stab wounds on it. His midsection. His legs. I mean, his entire body was butchered. It was a horrific, horrific scene.

Obviously, the entire courtroom, reporters, the public, it was a somber mood in the courtroom. Everybody was quiet watching these photos go by, and it was the worst, obviously, for the family, who got up and left.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The prosecution spent the first part of the day basically soaking in blood. Soaking the jury, metaphorically, at least, in the bloody crime scene photographs. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The hallway and floor, including the red staining from the hallway. Red staining on the carpet in the master bedroom. From different vantage points of some of the red staining. That is red staining that was on the carpet, in the master bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a close-up of it?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at these bloody hands. We`re going to show you again. These are extraordinary. And we have with us, we`re very delighted to have Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic science -- scientist of note. What do these hands say? I mean, the prosecutor says this was a rage killing by an obsessed woman who was a stalker.

The defense says, "Oh, no, this was self-defense." But what do these crime scenes tell you?

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, first of all, Jane, it`s obvious this victim is in a state of advanced decomposition. The body is already turning dark. You see the discoloration on the hands.

We also see extensive wounds on the hands. This was not simply self- defense. I`ve never, in my career, seen self-defense with such incredible -- an attack like this.

I think we said 29 stab wounds. Not only to the hands and the torso, but to the heart. That is a fatal blow. And he would have exsanguinated if it were just that. But there`s a lot more than that.

And so, clearly, this is a crime of rage. This is -- doesn`t seem to me to be self-defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And let`s talk a little bit about Jodi Arias. OK. We`re going to show you a little bit -- that`s another one of the crime scene photos. Look at that. Look at that sink. I mean, that tells a story, that sink.

And, in fact, prosecutors say that he stood over that sink, essentially bleeding to death as he was repeatedly attacked by Jodi Arias in -- in what is also a torturous and painful death.

And I want to go out for a second to Beth Karas. Because we`re seeing so many of these photos. And of course, they just -- they`re like a punch to the stomach when you look at something like this, this bloody sink.

But they also tell a story that the prosecution wants to tell about how long it took Travis Alexander to die. Why he wasn`t able to fight back, even though he`s bigger than Jodi Arias, and also how he must have suffered.

And if you drop that graphic there, you can see that is his body right there, his body in the shower. Beth Karas, how long did it take him to die?

BETH KARAS, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Well, it probably took him a couple of minutes. We haven`t heard an actual time, because it really is impossible to say.

But the medical examiner said today that, in his opinion, the stab wound to the heart, which was one of three major fatal wounds, wasn`t immediately fatal, and would have been the first one.

Because there`s no way, with a shot to the brain, a gunshot to the brain, or the slashed throat that was three to four inches deep and severed his windpipe and went all the way down to the spine, that he could have continued fighting and had defensive wounds.

And because he had defensive wounds on his hands, those deep, knife cuts that you were just showing when -- you were showing his decomposed hands, but you saw the knife cuts. He could not have gotten those wounds unless the first one, or one of the early wounds, was to his heart. And then he started probably, I mean, losing a lot of blood, getting dizzy. He stood over the sink. He was probably spitting blood, dripping blood.

And it`s possible, as he`s bent over the sink, that he got those nine stab wounds on the upper -- upper back, and they`re about an inch deep. They were -- they didn`t go into the chest cavity, but there were several of them at a diagonal.

And then he may have, bleeding, you know, sort of stumbled down the hallway, which is about 12 feet, to the bedroom, where he probably collapsed, and then his throat was slashed at the end of the hallway, the entrance to the bedroom. He was alive, said the M.E., when his throat was slashed, and then she dragged him back to the shower and shot him on the way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re showing -- thank you for that, Beth. And we`re showing some crime scene photos that devastated the family, especially the photos of the victim`s body, particularly his hands.

Now all this time, as the family of the victim races out of the courtroom because they can`t handle it -- and it`s totally understandable - - Jodi Arias, let`s show Jodi Arias in court today. And she is crying. There she is. And you can see her. Well, she becomes very emotional. She is crying during the showing of these photos.

So, Jordan Rose, you`re an attorney out of Phoenix, Arizona. She has been sobbing through most of this. And you see her usually with a Kleenex in her hand, putting her hand to her nose and crying. Do you buy her tears?

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY (via phone): You know, today she was clearly counseled on her previous, sort of Angelina Jolie meets Octomom sexy persona that she was playing. And today she comes in looking like -- I don`t know, a dejected librarian hiding her nose job and her lip injections that she kind of flouted last week.

She curls the front bangs and tries to look a little sheepish. And she`s really a chameleon, for sure. And it makes her seem sort of virginal in contrast with the sexually deviant photographs that are going to be shown to the jury quite soon.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, and speaking of that...

ROSE: She looks like she`s working for a Kleenex endorsement right now.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, speaking of that, we`re going to debate that on the other side, because some say, well, why did she even go to trial? The evidence against her is so completely overwhelming.

But we have an attorney on the other side who says, "Oh, no, not so fast." Perhaps it`s a Casey Anthony, O.J. Simpson who have given people who were facing overwhelming evidence some hope that they could be acquitted or maybe she does have a case for self-defense? You`re going to hear and we`re going to debate it on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The view of the laundry room. These photographs depict the washing machine and the contents of that washing machine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are we looking at there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a digital camera that was found inside of the washing machine. There was a memory card inside the washing machine. It was also collected.




ARIAS: I practically lived there, even when I was there. I spent the night there several times a week while I lived there. I came over and cleaned his house a lot. He sort of -- he paid me a little bit every month to keep his house nice and clean, sort of like a housekeeper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember seeing an e-mail from Mr. Alexander to Miss Arias where he provides her a picture of the French maid outfit that he would like her to don when she cleans his apartment? Or his home, excuse me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. That doesn`t sound familiar.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, Jodi Arias has been crying since the start of this case. And we`re going to show you her tears in a moment.

Now, we all remember the Casey Anthony case, where Casey cried repeatedly in the courtroom before the jurors, but then -- before the trial when her daughter, Caylee, was missing -- not really but supposedly -- Casey wasn`t emotional at all. Remember this?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did she start watching over your child?

CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED OF MURDERING HER DAUGHTER: It`s been within the last year and a half, two years that she started watching Caylee.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now Jodi Arias also turned on the waterworks every day, but she sounded also very matter of fact and unemotional when she was talking to cops right after Travis Alexander`s body was found.


ARIAS (via phone): I never really dated anyone since. And he told me that he hadn`t dated anyone since, but then he told me after that that he has. So it`s all been kind of weird because we kept our dating lives sort of from each other. Like a don`t ask, don`t tell policy sort of.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s bring in all our top attorneys that we have gathered tonight. Lisa Bloom, legal analyst for Avo.com, author of "Swagger," you talk about boys` swagger. But this is sort of a female. Is this female theatrics at work?

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVO.COM: Yes, frankly, her attorney is very smart, and her attorney masterminded this new look. The very mousy look with the glasses. I love that she looks over the glasses to read. Most of us look through glasses to read. And she sits there crying. She may be crying because she knows she`s going to prison, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But, Nishay Sanan, you are a criminal defense attorney out of Chicago, and I understand that you believe that she actually has a viable self-defense argument? Huh?

NISHAY SANAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She does. She does have a valid self-defense argument.

You know, just because everybody`s focusing on the crime scene and these gruesome pictures, it doesn`t mean she doesn`t have a valid self- defense scheme. It could be 26 puncture wounds. It could be 5.

What happens is you go into fight or flight. When she was being attacked by Travis Alexander, she went into fight mode. And then you keep going until you believe, or in your mind the job is done to where your attacker can no longer attack you.

And I think the defense is doing a great job in portraying the relationship between Travis and Jodi during the time frame when his family, his friends, all believed that he was this good Mormon who went to church, was doing the right thing, was not going to have sex. The defense has prayed him -- portrayed him to be living this double life, and I think they`re setting this defense up perfectly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jordan Rose, attorney out of Phoenix, you disagree?

ROSE: Vehemently disagree. I mean, if these crime-scene photos are the definition of self-defense, Lindsay Lohan`s the definition of stability.

I mean, remember today was more about proving murder than premeditation. Because, in our state, and our state Arizona wants to see her put to death, they`ve got to first show she killed him. Then they`ve got to show it`s been premeditated. And in order to put her to death, they`ve got to show that the injuries were unusually cruel.

And in doing that, it thwarts her self-defense claim, stabbing him repeatedly in the back. That`s fine and well to say that she has a great self-defense claim if the facts stated that in any, any regard. But that is just a stretch. There is nothing out there...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Nishay, I want to give you a chance to respond.

SANAN: Well, yes, there could be stab wounds in the front. They could be in the back. It doesn`t matter when you go into that fight mode, which she did because she was being attacked by Travis Alexander, you keep going. You don`t just stop after you stab someone once when you`re worried about yourself, your own life, your own fears. You keep going until you believe or until your mind believes that job is done.

And what happens here is there may have been multiple stab wounds. And that`s what the prosecution has to focus on. That`s what they have to do to play on the emotions of this jury to try to defeat this evidence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Kobilinsky, forensic scientist, you`ve seen so many crimes. You`re saying this is a classic overkill where she keeps killing him. Even after he`s dead she`s still going after him.

KOBILINSKY: There`s no question in my mind, he was obviously incapacitated after being subjected to 29 stab wounds, including penetration of the heart.

But then, he was able to move a little bit down the hallway, and then to have the throat slit. I mean, you can follow the pattern through blood spatter, and if there was arterial severance, there would have been arterial spurting. And that`s, again, more evidence for the pattern that took place.

But then, he`s totally incapacitated. Shooting him in the head, that is really overkill. So much emotion. So much rage. There`s no other explanation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, we`re going to take you through this killing that went on for minutes, and show you exactly what happened and in what order. It`s astounding.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Towards the end of their relationship, after they had kind of broken up, and he had put some distance between them, it really was an obsession type of a thing. And the way he described it was that she was really stalking him.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a few weeks before -- like, before we went, again, I told him, "Maybe you should take somebody else to Cancun with you." And there wasn`t anyone else that he wanted to take.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: There wasn`t anyone else that Travis Alexander wanted to take to Cancun. He was scheduled to leave right after he ended up dying for Cancun with that girl. That was the good girl he wanted to take, and prosecutors believe that Jodi Arias, who was his sort of secret sexual hookup, was in a rage, jealous, and also stalking him, furious that he didn`t consider her marriage material.

Let`s go out to the phone lines. Brenda, Indiana, your question or thought. Thanks for your patience. Brenda, Indiana.

CALLER: Hi, Jane, yes. I love your show.


CALLER: I just wanted to ask, they said today in court that she dropped his camera and that he grabbed her and spun her around, and that`s when it all happened, in like a minute. Where in the heck did she get the knife from all of a sudden to start stabbing him with? No one`s mentioned anything about that.

Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect," a new book about this case that you are working on. Where do prosecutors believe she got the knife and the gun?

SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST/AUTHOR: Well, with the gun, the prosecutors believe that it was stolen from her grandparents` house like on the May 28, which was just a week before the murder. There was a reported burglary at the house, and the only thing missing was a 25 caliber weapon. And that was the same caliber weapon used in the crime.

As for the knife, the prosecutors haven`t said where they think it came from. But the defense has a theory that the knife came from Travis cutting tassels to tie her up. That was somehow left in the bathroom, and then during the attack she grabbed the knife.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, the defense claims that Travis tied her up in a kinky sexual acting out, and of course, both sides agree that they did have sex in the hours before this killing occurred.

Lynn, Tennessee, your question or thought -- Lynn.

CALLER: Yes, Jane, how are you?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good, thank you.

CALLER: Well, you know, that don`t look like no self-defense to me. She drove, what, 1,000 miles, to do this to him? You know what? She`s a scorned woman, and he dumped her. And she drove all the way there, probably took her clothes off. They had sex, and then she planned on killing him before she left there. I already know that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joe Gomez, that is a very good comment by Lynn from Tennessee. That people have to take into consideration that she drove from her home in California, all the way to Mesa, Arizona, to have sex with him.

So, meanwhile, the defense is arguing, oh, she was the victim of this sort of sexual deviant is how they`re trying to paint him, to the horror of his own family. But she`s the one who drove across state lines to see him.

JOE GOMEZ: Exactly, Jane. And not only that, but she, you know, apparently brought a gun to a love fest. And you just have to look at the grisly pictures here. The hallway is splattered in blood. The carpet is stained in blood. The sink is -- it`s just so grisly. The savageness, and the depravity that we see in this case seems to have no end, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. And Christine, North Carolina, quick question or thought, Christine?

CALLER: Yes, Jane, hey, I love you and Rico and your mom and what you do for everybody.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, thank you.

CALLER: And I just want to say, like the other caller, you know, her driving 1,000 miles, and bringing a gun with her, I believe she was sexually active with him. Every picture you see of them they`re smiling, happy, this that and the other. She does not look like an abused woman. I`ve seen abused victims. And I`m a rape survivor. I know what that`s like.

And so I don`t buy these tears in the courtroom. I mean, she`s guilty of first-degree murder. She deserves the death penalty, and I hope the jury can see through her fake, you know, just the way she acts. It`s just wrong. And what she...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Christine...

CALLER: Totally disgusting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to thank you for sharing your personal story and thank you for calling. And we are going to have a whole breakdown of how Travis Alexander was killed on the other side.


ARIAS: To me that wasn`t obsessive behavior on his part. It was just I took it a compliment. He wanted to talk to me? OK, that`s great.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But were you obsessed with him? Those are the allegations they made.

ARIAS: No. No, not at all.



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Here`s how prosecutors say the murder of Travis Alexander actually happened. They say Jodi starts stabbing Travis in the shower, stabbing him right in the heart. But Travis grabs at the knife and stumbles to the sink where he drips and spits blood.

Prosecutors say Jodi stabs him repeatedly in the back, and in the scalp as he stands there bleeding out. Then Travis stumbles down the hall towards the bedroom. The prosecutor says he gets only a few steps inside his bedroom before probably falling to his knees, where they say Jodi slashes his throat from ear to ear.

Jodi then allegedly drags him down the hall, hauling him to the sink area. Cops say that`s where she shoots him in the forehead even though he`s most likely already dead. Prosecutors say Jodi then puts Travis` dead body back in the shower, rinsing it off, leaving his body for his roommates to find.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, is that the self-defense of a young woman who says that oh, he got rough with her because she dropped his new camera? Or was this the rage killing of a woman who was furious because he was about to take another woman to Cancun on vacation?

Let`s debate this with our two attorneys, Jordan Rose attorney out of Phoenix and Nishay Sanan. Jordan we`ll start with you.

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: This is the weakest defense I have ever seen. This woman is alleging that because she dropped -- caused him to drop a camera he freaks out enough to cause her to have to kill him, and not only just kill him in self-defense, but stab him 29 times, and do all these brutally outrageous, unusually cruel things to the body. It`s terrible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nishay Sanan, how can you argue self-defense?

NISHAY SANAN, ATTORNEY: Well, it`s just exactly as you laid out the facts. He attacks her. She starts stabbing him. He doesn`t fall to the ground. He walks to the sink. So she continues, in fear of herself, continues to stab him, then what does he do? He doesn`t fall to the ground. He walks towards the bedroom.

She, as your other guest said, she`s freaking out. She doesn`t know if he`s going to come after -- if he`s going to come after her again or what he`s going to do. He doesn`t fall to the ground, he keeps moving, even every single time she does something to him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And how do they explain, however, that she brings a gun with her that she pretended was stolen from her grandfather`s house a week before? I mean you --

SANAN: Well, what evidence -- there`s no evidence --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- you suddenly drop a camera and suddenly attacks you, well, how -- are you a psychic that you knew to bring a gun to the occasion, because you knew that you were going to drop the camera and he was going to attack you? I mean --

SANAN: Well, what evidence does the prosecutor have that she brought the gun? All they have is a missing gun at the grandparents` house. That`s it. There`s been no evidence put forth that she brought the gun.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Lisa Bloom --

SANAN: What they have is a man attacking a woman.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, legal analyst, avo.com and author of "Swagger"; whatever you think about the sexual relationship between these two and whether or not he was hypocritical in pretending to the world allegedly that he was a virgin Mormon while secretly having sex with her. Whatever you think about that, does that alter the nature of this crime scene?

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST: Of course not. And let me correct a very important misstatement of the law. Self-defense has to be a reasonable fear, reasonable fear of bodily harm or injury. Once you stab someone, or shot them and they are down, you can`t continue stabbing and shooting until they`re dead. Once the threat has been eliminated, because a person is disabled or injured, you`re supposed to get out of there.

I mean the law that this attorney is advocating would essentially negate any respect for human life and you know that. That is not the law of self-defense that you can just snap and stab and stab and stab 27 times and shoot somebody until they`re dead. That is just not the way it works.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nishay is self-defense really or defending a client, I should say, really about basically buying any ridiculous story that that defendant, that client gives you, without using any kind of filter as to whether or not it`s realistic? Is that what defense law has become today?

SANAN: No, it hasn`t. The facts are present for putting up a self- defense. They have battered woman syndrome involved in this self-defense. And the facts are there to support this defense as a reasonable defense. They`re going before a jury in a case where their client is looking at death. They`re just not going to throw everything to the wall and see what sticks. They need to protect her.

And that`s exactly what they`re doing by setting forth the fact that Travis Alexander attacked her. And I disagree with your other guest here who says that once the person`s down -- your own facts as put forth by your forensics says that he wasn`t down. He kept moving. He went from the sink -- from one room to the sink, from the sink to the bedroom. He was never down.


ROSE: She is going to have an awful time trying to prove that she had any injuries that would warrant such a defense, such as self-defense claims. I mean she didn`t go to the police for five days. There`s no ability to show injuries that would sustain her self-defense claim. And this woman is going to have to put on some massive charm offensive in front of the jury, get up there and talk battered woman syndrome with no proof. It`s impossible -- terrible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, she did have some injuries, because once she left the crime scene, she went to Utah, and was hanging around, and canoodling, you might say, with one of the victims, Travis Alexander`s co- worker, with whom she also apparently had some kind of budding love interest with.

So, Lawrence Kobilinsky, to the point, if she has this other gentleman had said well, yes, she looked a little odd. She was wearing long sleeve shirts and had cuts on her fingers, would that do the trick to say oh, well, this is self-defense?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Jane, from my perspective you`ve got to look at the crime scene, you`ve got to look at the physical evidence, and you have to ask the question, is it consistent? Is her behavior -- is her argument of self-defense consistent with the crime scene evidence? And it seems to me not to be.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, and on the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about the warning signs. This did not happen in a vacuum.

Travis` friends say they immediately, and it`s on the 911 call, they immediately told cops, look at this young woman, she`s been stalking and harassing our friend. That on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is reddish brown staining and reddish brown substance that was inside and on top of the sink in the master bathroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are we looking at there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those were some hair and fiber-like materials that were found around the shower stall that were designated to be collected as items of evidence. She was actually just indicating the hairs that you see here on the floor.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you can see the red staining in this photograph.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll be back with more Jodi Arias in just a moment. We have a whole bunch to tell you about tonight. But tomorrow we also have an exclusive interview. We will talk with one of Travis Alexander`s very best friend a man named Mark Brummet. This will be the first time that he has spoken publicly since his very dear friend`s death. He calls Travis Alexander his hero. He says the two of them did everything together.

We`re going to talk to him tomorrow on this show, 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Please join us for that.

In a moment we`re back with more unbelievable evidence.



MARIE HALL, VICTIM`S FRIEND: She had followed us on the first date that we went on.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi Arias moves from Palm Desert, California to Mesa, Arizona.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing you notice is all this blood just outside the hallway here on the carpet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Red staining on the carpet in the master bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s blood everywhere -- lots of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A closer view of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point I`m starting to think oh, something might be wrong. I said you need to find out where she is.

ARIAS: It was hard to fully move on, I think because we continued to spend a little bit too much time together.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Long before Travis Alexander was killed, there were many red flags in Travis and Jodi`s relationship. When one of Tyler`s (SIC) friends was on this show I asked him about that. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of the stories I`ve heard are that she would always follow around him and the girls that he was dating. And I`ve heard stories of her watching them sleep or I`ve heard stories of her watching through windows or doorways. And there`s stories also of allegedly her slashing his tires two nights in a row outside his girlfriend`s house.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, we`ve all gone through breakups, but Travis` friends say she slashed his tires twice, sent anonymous e-mails to Travis` new girlfriends, and did various other things that were incredibly stalker- ish. After they broke up she moves from California to Travis` hometown of Mesa, Arizona; and just a couple of days before he`s killed friends say that Travis discovered Jodi hacking into his Facebook account.

Lisa Bloom, I mean, if you take all of that, and if the prosecution successfully presents that in a cogent fashion at closing, with all this forensic evidence, and the hand -- the blood on the hands of the stab wounds, I mean how could you say all of this is self-defense?

BLOOM: It`s a very, very difficult road for the defense in this case. I think the prosecution has a mountain of evidence. I don`t want to prejudge it. Let`s hear all the evidence as it comes in. But, boy Jane, I mean usually someone who is a victim of domestic violence is not going after the guy in the way that she did.

And she certainly appears to be a stalker. She appears to be crazy, evil, vindictive, horribly violent; don`t forget she lied twice. If this was self-defense, why not pick up the phone and immediately call the police and say, "Oh my God, he was attacking me, but he`s here, please come and try to save his life." I mean none of that happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Kobilinsky you said that you thought her attorney is doing her a disservice. Tell me.

KOBILINSKY: Well, I think she`s facing capital punishment, and if she were offered a plea bargain, I think it would be foolhardy not to consider that in a strong way. I mean the evidence is pointing in one direction. It`s not terribly ambiguous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shanna Hogan, you`re covering this from the very start. Was she offered any kind of plea deal at any point?

SHANNA HOGAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Her attorneys urged her to take a plea deal and she has been adamant from the beginning that she would not plead to this case. And for most of the time she was saying that she was completely innocent, that she had nothing to do with the crime. So it wasn`t up until 2011 where she decided to say that she killed him in self- defense.


Now, let`s talk about Jodi`s appearance in court. This is fascinating. Let`s take a look. Day one of the trial, Jodi, we`re going to show this to you, she looks rather serious in a black sweater, there she is, and a very dark hair. She used to be a blonde, remember?

Then day two she adds color. She`s got a green blouse, and still looking rather attractive.

Day three, today, oh, oh, now she`s suddenly wearing glasses. All right. Did her eyesight go bad over the weekend? All right. Then at lunch she adds a dark blue blazer and then takes it off after the split.

So, Joe Gomez, do you remember Casey Anthony with her pastel button- down blouses? Is there some defense handbook that says you have to get your client to wear pastel shirt with a collar, especially if she has a reputation as being a sex maniac?

JOE GOMEZ, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It`s certainly interesting, isn`t it, Jane, that suddenly she puts on the grandma glasses and adopts sort of a librarian look as though to distance herself from the savagery that is being depicted here by the prosecution.

But look, I mean the chips are just stacked so heavily against her. We have the gun thing, the fact that she allegedly stabbed Travis so many times. And if this was in self-defense why did she only have apparently cuts on her fingers. She wasn`t cutting up vegetables, Jane. She was in a fight for her life. She should have had more defensive wounds in other parts of her body.

Given the savage nature of this attack, the bloodstains across the hallway, in the sink, literally painted practically everywhere in the house.


GOMEZ: It shocks me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s like deja vu all over again. I was in this exact same chair, saying the same thing, hearing the same kind of things about many, many high profile clients whether it was Casey Anthony or Michael Jackson during his child molestation trial. And then previous to that the O.J. Simpson case. There was no such thing as an open and shut case.

More on the other side.


ARIAS: Well, I just wanted to offer any assistance. I was a really good friend of Travis`. I heard that he was -- that he passed away, and that, it was -- I don`t know, I`ve heard all kinds of rumors. I heard there was a lot of blood.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Take a look at this photo. We`re going to analyze it afterwards. This is what is believed to be the photo of the actual crime in progress. Take a good look at it. Our expert forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky is going to analyze it in just a moment. What do you see?

Ok. We`ll be right back with an analysis.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that`s been bothering him and following him and slashing tires and things like that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now we`re going to show you once again the inadvertent photo that the prosecution says captures the act of Travis Alexander being killed, being murdered, according to prosecutors. This is a first. Take a look at it.

This is the camera, first of all, that prosecutors say was being used and Jodie claims, oh, yes, you know, I dropped it and he got mad at me. The prosecution says she accidentally clicked on it as the killing occurred. There`s the photo.

Now let`s drop the banner so we can study it, everybody study it together. The prosecution says you can see Jodi`s foot in the background. The defense says, uh-uh. This actually shows Travis` head and arms are raised, and they, therefore, question, that oh, she was killing him. Well, he was still attacking her and she was defending herself.

I`m looking at it. Honestly, I can`t figure it out at all. So our expert, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, I know it`s hard but try to give us something here because this is bizarre.
KOBILINSKY: It`s important because it`s a time stamped photograph. And apparently it illustrates the events during the act, during the attack. It does appear there is a hand and an arm and a head. The prosecutor is indicating that her foot is in the photo as well, but it`s very difficult to see.

And it`s not so much what I think of the photo but what does a juror think about it this? Does this really tell a story? Does it say anything about self-defense, or does it show somebody who is really trying to protect --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You see where my name is, Jane, there`s a little blood above that. Is that body part right there, are you saying that`s his head or her foot?

KOBILINSKY: I think so.


KOBILINSKY: It appears to me to be his head.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s his head and then the foot is that little thing in the background, sort of. That looks like a potato almost like in the background.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, that`s what the prosecution is alleging.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely fascinating. Let`s go to the phone lines. Marie, Kentucky, your question or thought, Marie.

MARIE, KENTUCKY (via telephone): Hi. I am confused about something.


MARIE: Apparently in the very beginning of this trial there was mention of her handprint being -- or it being on like a door frame.


MARIE: My question is, I thought it was said that there was both his blood and her blood in the handprint.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, yes. That`s true.

MARIE: Somebody want to unconfuse me or --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, that`s true.

MARIE: In other words, if both people`s blood was found, she was injured in some way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, ok. I guess that goes to Nishay Sanan, criminal defense attorney, who is saying that there is a self-defense. Is this something that could be used to argue that, oh, yes, she is bleeding, too?

SANAN: It could be. I mean you have the mixture of two bloods. So if they`re saying she wasn`t injured or she wasn`t trying to stop him from attacking her, this clearly goes to show she was cut up. And it could have been when he was attacking her or when she was trying to protect herself with that knife.


SANAN: It goes to show she did have injury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Jordan Rose, 10 seconds.

ROSE: She has to charm the jury. She has to get up there and do sort of an O.J. But the thing that`s different is that she`s not O.J. We don`t know her and love her beforehand, and she doesn`t have the money to put on the defense and put on all those expensive experts to prove her self- defense claim.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. More on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you -- I have to ask you this. Did you kill Travis Alexander?

ARIAS: Absolutely not. No, I had no part in it.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the throat wounds and the head wound, I don`t think this person could have had purposeful activity, meaning I don`t think they could have raised their arms to defend themselves.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, ok, the prosecution has been showing the hands of the victim to show that this was a violent, vicious killing of a jealous woman, overkill as it were, and Lisa Bloom, the caller mentioned a very good point. If, in fact, there`s a palm print showing that it`s not just his blood, as you can see he is cut there in the crime scene photos, but also her blood mixed together in a palm print, could that be enough to give one jurors the idea that maybe she was cut as well if she was defending herself?

BLOOM: I don`t think so, Jane. If you take a knife and you stab somebody 27 times and that person is, of course, fighting for his life, you are going to get some wounds on yourself as well. I mean there`s just no other way about it.

It doesn`t mean they`re defensive wounds, that he was attacking her. Simply the act of stabbing over and over and over again means you`re going to cut your hands.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and he had tried to grab the knife, according to prosecutors, and that`s one of the reasons that he had some cuts, was that he was grabbing the knife, Lawrence. Kobilinsky. You were making a similar point that when you`re killing somebody, you do get hurt in the process.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. Lisa is absolutely right. I`ve worked on a lot of cases where one person stabs another and that is exactly what happens. The knife gets bloody, your hand slips, and you end up cutting yourself. So having a palm print with two sources of blood, victim and suspect, is not a big surprise and really doesn`t argue for self-defense at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the key difference between the victim and the accused is that one is a man, one is a woman and Travis Alexander was much bigger. He was 5`9; he was 189 pounds at the autopsy, meaning he was even heavier before he was killed. She`s 5`4 and 115 pounds.

And so you have to wonder how is it that a 5`4 petite woman can overpower an older man -- a stronger man. Well, a gun is the great equalizer. That`s what we call the great equalizer, a kid with a gun. A teen with a gun can wipe out as we know a lot of people, sadly.

Tomorrow we have the victim`s very good friend. Join us for that tomorrow.

Nancy next.



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« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2013, 04:22:24 PM »

Jodi Arias Trial: Evidence Stacks Up In Case Of Sex, Jealousy And Murder
January 8, 2013

Photos & video at link.

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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2013, 04:28:49 PM »


Bombshell Beauty Murder Trial

Aired January 8, 2013 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet at a conference in Vegas and fall hard. But when the flame burns out and they break up, she then moves 300 miles to pursue him, to get back together, even converting to Mormonism to get her man. Then 30-year-old Travis Alexander`s found dead, slumped in the shower in his five-bedroom luxury home, shot, stabbed 29 times and beaten to death, the violence so brutal it resembles a mob hit.

Bombshell tonight. Gruesome, graphic autopsy photos of Travis Alexander`s dead body as the medical examiner reveals a play-by-play, each step in Alexander`s death, starting with sex shots in the shower, ending with a stab to the heart, a smiley-face neck slash literally from ear to ear, that slash so deep, it goes all the way back to the spine bone, and bloody drag marks on the bedroom carpet.

Jodi Arias in court, wardrobe changes and buckets of tears. Yes, as autopsy photos grip the jury, Arias changes from baby blue to midnight black and dons glasses, gold-rimmed glasses for a, quote, "smart" look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi Arias goes back to court today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can have a cut (INAUDIBLE) to the forearm, and it`s consistent with someone trying to either grab the knife or fend off injury.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is a possible shoe impression that was found on the tile floor in the bathroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell with regard to the gunshot wound to the right temple whether or not (INAUDIBLE) at that point?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t see hemorrhaging in the brain.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we don`t see hemorrhaging or bleeding, is that an indication that the person was already dead?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They may have been.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) pointing fingers (ph) to get directions right away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. (INAUDIBLE) lots of fights.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Primarily blood loss.

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: We used to make (ph) videos and things like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Videos of the two of you together?

ARIAS: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would they be described as sex videos?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This relationship was about sex.

ARIAS: It eventually became sex.


GRACE: That`s from CBS "48 Hours."

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Gruesome and graphic autopsy photos of Travis Alexander`s dead body as the medical examiner reveals a play-by-play, each individual step in Alexander`s death, starting with sex shots in the shower and ending with a stab wound to the heart, a smiley-face neck slash from ear to ear so deep, it goes all the way back to the spine bone, capped off with bloody drag marks as his body was dragged across the bedroom carpet. Jodi Arias`s reaction in court? Of course, wardrobe changes and buckets of tears!

We are live and taking your calls. With me tonight and answering your questions is a special guest. Zack Billings is joining me from the Phoenix courthouse. This is Travis Alexander`s roommate, who actually found his friend, his roommate`s body there in the shower.

To accurately describe what happened in court today, we have photos that were shown to the jury in court. They will be shown to you, as they were to the jury. I will do my best to give you an advisory before I show them to you in case you want to look away.

But first, straight to Beth Karas, legal correspondent, "In Session." Beth, is it true that Arias comes into court in baby blue, today she`s donning gold-rimmed glasses for a smart look, and at some point, changes and puts on a midnight black jacket?

BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Indeed. You are absolutely right. She had on a buttoned-down short sleeve, just little cap-sleeved blouse. And I did think, Wow, it`s a little bit cold for that. And I wasn`t surprised to see her putting a jacket over it later in the day because it does get chilly in the courtroom.

GRACE: Where is she getting her clothes, Beth Karas? And I know that is very superfluous. I know it`s a tangential question. But believe you me, this death penalty defense lawyer she`s got has a plan. Everything is maneuvered. Everything is part of a bigger plan than you and I can even imagine.

So where is she getting these clothes? Are these her clothes from her home?

KARAS: You know, I`m not sure. I will ask her defense attorneys, although they`re not really talking much, to see if they`re bringing her wardrobe or if her mother and aunt, who are in the courtroom -- her mother and her mother`s twin sister -- have provided the clothes. But they`ve been very nice tops that we`ve seen her in, and she`s wearing slacks. The jacket she put on today was a little oversized, so I suspect that that`s not hers.

GRACE: OK, everybody, let`s go through what happened in court today. Of course, there was a fingerprint crime scene tech. But then just before the crime scene tech can actually say that bloody palm print belonged to Jodi Arias, placing her at the scene at the time of the murder, the medical examiner took the stand out of order.

To you, Bonnie Druker. What happened? Why did the ME come on out of order?
BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): We`re not exactly sure why he came on out of order, but it could have been something because of his schedule.

All I have to say is when the ME came on, Nancy, it became a horror show, just looking at these pictures, so grisly, so gruesome. I mean, so many of us had to turn away. Travis Alexander`s family walked out of the courtroom crying. And it was just such a grisly, grisly afternoon, Nancy, in court.

GRACE: OK, everyone, as Bonnie and Beth and Jean are describing what happened in court today, we will be showing those crime scene photos. We`re going to be showing portions of the autopsy photos that were shown in court.

Go ahead, Bonnie. Repeat?

DRUKER: Those pictures, Nancy -- I mean, I`ve been in a lot of courtrooms, and I just cannot believe what I saw. It was a horror show. We saw -- again, I want to warn our viewers. We saw the slit neck from ear to ear, and it was so deep, Nancy, that it went all the way back to Travis Alexandria`s spine. At one point, it`s, like, is his head going to be decapitated from the body? That`s just one of the pictures. There were others, as well, a lot of other pictures.

GRACE: You know what you`re reminding me of -- out to you, Jean Casarez. The last time we heard about a neck slash this bad was during the Orenthal James Simpson double murder trial, where Nicole Brown`s neck was slashed so badly, it went all the way to her spine.

And what`s so crazy, everybody, comparing O.J. Simpson to Jodi Arias -- let`s see that two-shot right there again, Liz -- is O.J. Simpson was an NFL football player, a star, right? He`s huge. His hands are huge. He has immense strength compared to Jodi Arias. She is, what, about 5-2 and weighs about 110 pounds, Jean?

JEAN CESAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": She`s 5-4 and a slight 114, 115 pounds.

You know what prosecutors tried to show today was that Jodi Arias attempted to decapitate Travis Alexander, that she attempted to assassinate with one shot to the head Travis Alexander. And we now understand why they had the order that they did of these horrendous acts, because of those hands, the shots you`ve been showing. Those show defensive wounds where he fought back and he tried to survive. And after she slit his throat and after she shot him in the head, he wouldn`t have had the strength to fight back.

GRACE: Everyone, joining me right now, as we are discussing Travis Alexander like he`s a specimen or something out of a book -- the reality is, is he was loved by many, including his dear friend Zack Billings who is joining us tonight.

Zack, thank you for being with us. I know it must be very, very difficult to hear all of us lawyers and reporters talking about your friend like he`s basically state`s exhibit number one. We are looking at it from a trial and analytical angle, and you look at it very differently. In fact, you found his body, did you not?


GRACE: Zack, what happened that day?

BILLINGS: Yes, I did, Nancy. And thank you for having me on. That day, I remember, I was actually watching a movie with my girlfriend at the time, or my wife now. And I remember getting a knock on my are door and Travis`s friends came to the door. And they said, Have you seen Travis? And I said, Well, no, I haven`t seen Travis. He`s supposed to be in Cancun or out on vacation right now.

And they said, Yes, he is, but he`s supposed to be here with me, with Mimi (ph). And so I said, Well, have you checked his bedroom? And that was my first thought. So they said, Well, no, we haven`t. The door`s locked. And I said, I think he keeps a spare set of keys downstairs.

So I went downstairs and I searched for them and grabbed a few sets of keys and came back upstairs and tried a few different sets of keys, and one of them happened to be his bedroom key.

And as soon as the door was opened, my heart just sank. And immediately, on the right-hand side, I did end up seeing a pool of blood, and looked down the hallway and saw just blood strewn throughout the hallway. And my heart just sank.

I ended up going into the closet that`s adjacent to the hallway, and it opens up to the bathroom, as well. And that`s when I saw his body. And I came back out and I just told everybody, He`s dead. Call 911.

GRACE: When you say that you opened the door and your heart sank, what exactly did you see that made your heart sink?

BILLINGS: Just a pile of blood on the floor.

GRACE: When was the last time that you had actually seen him or spoken with him?

BILLINGS: The last time I had seen him would have been just the week prior, and it wasn`t anything big. It was just in passing, just saying hi. It would have been the Sunday before he was killed.

GRACE: Did you know Jodi Arias? Did you become acquainted with her while you and Travis were living together?

BILLINGS: Yes, I did. I met her on several different occasions. Jodi actually had an interest in photography, and as has come out, that she loved photography. And at the time, I had done photography semi- professionally, and so we had talked a little bit about it. She had shown me some of her work. I had showed her some of mine. And we just met on other occasions to just chitchat, and you know, How`s life? And that was about it.

GRACE: What was she like? How did she act when she was around Travis?

BILLINGS: When she was around Travis, didn`t act any differently than if she was -- or at least around me, didn`t act any differently than -- than if she was by herself.

GRACE: Were you aware...

BILLINGS: She was -- my interactions were her...

GRACE: ... that his tires -- were you aware his tires had been slashed? Then he gets new tires and moves his car and then they`re slashed again the next day? Did he confide in you what was going on?

BILLINGS: You know, I had heard about that and he told me that had happened. However, I didn`t -- all I was told is that it was an ex- girlfriend, and I wasn`t told specifically that it was Jodi and didn`t hear about that until after the fact.

GRACE: When you saw the bedroom, the bathroom, and confirmed your fears, and you saw his body, his dead body slumped over in that shower, did you think of Jodi Arias?

BILLINGS: At that point in time, my thoughts just went directly towards making sure that everybody involved was OK and that we made sure everything was taken care of. Those thoughts didn`t come on until later -- later that evening.

GRACE: When? So that very day?

BILLINGS: After -- it didn`t come on until after somebody had mentioned that Jodi might quite possibly be involved, and then I started connecting the dots and everything started to make a little more sense.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gripping murder trial in Arizona as Jodi Arias goes back to court today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are we looking at?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a lower view of the victim inside of the shower stall.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said that there is blood, so is it coming from his head? Did he (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s all over the place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any decomposition that was associated with the body?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there was a state of what we could call intermediate decomposition or the middle stage of decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sadly, we now know Travis did date a killer. It`s now up to the jury to decide if she killed in self-defense.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it because of self-defense? There`s no way in hell it was.


GRACE: That`s from ABC`s "Good Morning America."

And with me right now, taking your calls, a dear friend of Travis Alexander`s and his roommate, his roommate that found his dead body. With me is Zack Billings, Zack joining us from the courthouse there in Phoenix, where the trial is taking place.

Zack, again, thank you for being with us. When did you see Jodi Arias? When did you first see her after his murder?

BILLINGS: The first time I saw Jodi after -- after the murder and after we found his body was the following Monday at Travis`s memorial service.

GRACE: How did she behave?

BILLINGS: She seemed a little bit differently. I mean, she came in -- she`s normally blond, came in with brown hair. She came up to me, gave me a hug and said...

GRACE: Well, brown hair? Wait, wait.

BILLINGS: ... it was just horrible...

GRACE: Wait a minute. What did you say about brown hair?

BILLINGS: Oh, she`s normally a blond-haired girl, or was when I knew her. And then that week, I happened to see her with brown hair, different color hair entirely. She had come up to me.

GRACE: So in the middle of all of this, finding out that Travis Alexander has been brutally murdered, she dyes her hair?

BILLINGS: Correct.

GRACE: OK. I`m just finding that unusual, Zack, because I`m a crime victim, and when my fiance was murdered, I couldn`t even eat. I didn`t even want to wash my hair, much less go to a salon and get my hair dyed. OK, I just find that very unusual. But go ahead.

BILLINGS: At that point in time, she -- she came up to me and gave me a big hug and just said, Isn`t this horrible? I`m so sorry you had to go through that. And she asked me where I was living at the time. And that was about the extent of our interaction at that point.

GRACE: Did she ask you any questions regarding your discovery of the body?

BILLINGS: She asked me just a brief of what happened as far as my interaction with -- as far as my interaction with anyone else, had the police talked to me. And she already knew at that point that I had seen the body and was asking what the process was going through, what I was going through.

GRACE: Question. When you look back on the way she behaved at that memorial, that funeral, how do you reconcile that? Because at that time, whichever story of hers anybody chooses to believe or disbelieve, whether they believe, A, when she says she didn`t do it, B, that two perpetrators dressed in solid black, a man and a woman, attacked him as she looked on, or three, that she killed him in self-defense -- how do you reconcile her behavior at the memorial with what we now know, that she slashed his throat with such force, it went all the way through his neck, back to his neck bone?

BILLINGS: It`s hard -- it really is hard to fathom her reaction that day and to fathom just how she carried herself that day. If I was in similar circumstances -- and let`s say it was self-defense -- and that happened to me, I would just be in tears. I would not be able to fathom anything.

In fact, I was in tears that day. And to see her just nonchalantly just, How is everything and everything else...



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His body was dragged to the shower and he was shot in the head along the way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More consistent in your view with him hitting something before death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, or something hitting him.

ARIAS: I`ve heard all kinds of rumors. They said there was a lot of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why would you do nothing, nothing, to help him?

ARIAS: I was terrified, and I was scared for my life. And I think there was a naive belief that I could pretend like it didn`t really happen.


GRACE: That was Arias on CBS "48 Hours."

Welcome back. Joining me tonight is a very dear friend of Travis Alexander, his roommate that actually discovered his dead body there in the shower in the five-bedroom home in which they lived.

Zack, thank you for being with us. You said something just before we had to go to commercial. You said even if it was, say, self-defense -- OK, had you ever observed Travis become aggressively physical with Arias or any other woman?

BILLINGS: No, none whatsoever. In fact, quite the opposite.

GRACE: Explain that to me because he`s getting dragged through the mud here. She is claiming everything from he`s some kind of a sex deviant to beating her, and I don`t buy this.

BILLINGS: One of the last conversations I had -- and I remember having it with Travis -- he was talking to me about a new interest in his life. And he was telling me how excited he was.

And his exact words -- and it`s just burned in my brain -- he said, I`m just extremely Twitter pink (ph). And he said, I am just so excited about this new girl. I just want to -- I want to make things for her. I want to do all of this stuff. And I remember him making this whole dessert specifically because he knew she liked it.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He actually had everything going for him, a beautiful home, a beautiful car, a great income.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s dead. He`s in his bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s in his bedroom in the shower.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a defensive wound?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could be, yes, consistent with that.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would be -- from this vantage point, would be to your right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) possible hairs and/or fibers.

ARIAS: I`ve heard all kinds of rumors. I`ve heard there was a lot of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi was Travis`s dirty little secret.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there anything like a sexual relationship with him?



GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. It`s been quite a day in court as murder defendant Jodi Arias breaks down to cry buckets in front of the jury. She also decides to have a wardrobe change as autopsy photos are shown to the jury.

Let me warn you that these are very disturbing.

Liz, let`s go through part of what the jury saw today. These photos have a forensic value. You`re seeing there one of Travis Alexander`s extremely bruised hands. Now what this is going to signify are not only defensive wounds but also the pooling of the blood in the hand and also bruising occurred, which means his heart was still pumping. He was still alive when much of this damage occurred.

The ruler you are seeing is to -- in the autopsy, the cut, the scrapes, the defensive wounds are actually measured so they can be accurately written down in the autopsy report. The width, the length, and the depth of each of these wounds.

There you`re seeing what`s significant here, I believe the medical examiner joining us tonight, Dr. Hua, is going to tell you that there were actually divots in his skull, in his cranium from the knife, and that the neck wound went all the way back. You may actually see a mark on the spine, the neck bone, where the cut went all the way -- he was basically nearly decapitated there in his shower.

These are some of the photos that the jury saw.

Let`s go straight out to Dr. Zhongxue Hua, forensic pathologist, former chief medical examiner.

Doctor Hua, what do these photos say to you? Interpret them for us.
DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION COUNTY, NJ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Sure. Several things. The first is when the X-ray of the heads showing the bullet fragments, the fracture of the bone and also the other -- on the scene pictures showing the extensive amount of bleeding in the body specifically in the hands, you`re showing the defensive type wound, indicating someone is still alive, active alive, put into a fight, extensive, certainly would be contradictory to the statement the attacker was in the defensive mode.

GRACE: I want to go back to Zack Billings, Travis Alexander`s roommate.

You know, I can`t recall that I did not want to see -- as a crime victim did not want to see my fiance`s dead body, because I felt that that image was -- would be with me the rest of my life.

Have you found that discovering Travis` dead body is the image that is sticking with you?

ZACK BILLINGS, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S ROOMMATE, FOUND HIS DEAD BODY: Absolutely. It`s something that never really leaves you. I -- anytime it`s brought up, I relive walking through that room and seeing everything I saw that day. And it`s something that will always be with me regardless of how much I try to get it out of my head.

GRACE: You know, I was just remembering -- just hearing you talk, I remember when I saw the casket at a distance. I actually passed out in the funeral home. I guess emotionally and mentally you`re not ready for it.

When you view Jodi Arias now, when you see her, when you remember back, what do you make of her theory that this was a -- she killed him in self- defense because I don`t like sitting back and seeing this young man who came so far in his life from where his parents left him to be dragged through the mud like this. He`s been claimed to be a monster, a sex deviant, awful an aggressor, an abuser that beat her. And I -- I`m getting all of this from her. Why should I believe her?

BILLINGS: You shouldn`t. In fact, Travis was one of the nicest and kindest men I`ve ever met. He was -- he was the type of guy that you just wanted to be around. You always wanted to be like him. You wanted to -- he had a beautiful home. He had great friends. And he was just that type of guy that you just wanted to associate yourself with and be around.

GRACE: You know, I was just thinking about what you just said. Unleash the lawyers, Daryl Cohen, Brian Claypool.

Darryl Cohen, to hear Zack billings describe Travis Alexander falling in love with somebody else after Arias finally left town, when they broke up, and he`s trying so hard to get the ingredients exactly right. He told me in the commercial break the dessert had something to do with mint and mint leaves, and he`s trying to create this dessert for this woman he was falling for.

I find everyone describes him differently than Jodi Arias, Darryl Cohen. And, in fact, she says there has never been any physical abuse up until the time she killed him? So how could that be the battered woman`s syndrome? That`s a syndrome, that`s something you experience over and over and over. It`s a syndrome.

DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think the battered woman`s syndrome is exactly what we`re looking at. It doesn`t have to be physical. It can be emotional. Here it is. He was dating her. They broke up. Then he started seeing other people.

GRACE: Yes, and?

COHEN: She found out. She was a woman in fury.

GRACE: Whoa, wait -- no, no, no.

COHEN: And she couldn`t -- no, Nancy, this is the way it is.

GRACE: You said they broke up.

COHEN: She was really upset. Yes, but she still safe --

GRACE: Why shouldn`t they date other people after they broke up?

COHEN: But she didn`t realize it so kept coming back for sex.

GRACE: They broke up.

COHEN: And when she wanted him, and she`s a scorned woman, and she never saw what was going on in her own mind --

GRACE: That`s not battered women`s defense.

COHEN: Nancy, in her her own mind he was emotional.

GRACE: Scorned woman is not battered woman`s syndrome.

COHEN: In her own mind she was doing nothing but defending herself and defending her honor and I can`t tell you that I would represent her this way --

GRACE: Defending her honor?

COHEN: Yes. She did not know what she was doing. In her own mind, she was defending herself and she was out of control. I can`t tell you that I don`t think -- I think she should be entering a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity but what she did is what she did.

GRACE: OK. Brian Claypool, I am so glad we let Darryl go on with his appellate argument to the U.S. Supreme Court right there because everything he said is exactly what the battered woman`s syndrome is not. It is not about revenge from being scorned. It`s not about that at all.

And let`s be clear, they were broken up. He was honorable about it. They broke up. She moved away. He didn`t come back to her. She was the one driving back and forth 300 miles to get back with him.

BRIAN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`ve got to tell you, I really believe that this is a crime of passion. I don`t really think this is self-defense. I think that Jodi Arias drove 300 miles, and I think absent some intervening event, she doesn`t just start stabbing him and shooting him. I think she wanted to get back with him.

GRACE: Well, I can tell you that. They had sex all day and all night.

CLAYPOOL: Well, right, but this is --

GRACE: Then he drops the bomb on her that he`s going to Cancun in a couple of hours with another woman.

CLAYPOOL: Right. Exactly.

GRACE: Hello.

CLAYPOOL: Thank you.

GRACE: And that is not the battered women`s syndrome.

CLAYPOOL: This is second --

GRACE: No, no. No, no. Every time somebody pulls a trigger they`re angry.

CLAYPOOL: This is second-degree murder, Nancy.

GRACE: Just because you`re angry --

CLAYPOOL: It`s not premeditated. It`s a lover`s quarrel. Second-degree murder.

GRACE: Premeditation can be formed in the blink of an eye. Premeditation requires just an inkling, a moment of planning. It doesn`t require a long thought-out plan. Being angry is not a defense. The I`m mad, that`s not a defense.

CLAYPOOL: She wasn`t planning this. She carried a gun with her as she drives 300 miles through the desert. She`s a single woman.

Nancy, she`s a single woman driving 300 miles across the desert. She had a gun to protect herself. She is scorned.

GRACE: A gun that she stole from her grandfather. That`s just in the -- Matt Zarrell, let`s go to the timeline. When did she steal the gun from her grandparents?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: She stole the gun from her grandparents at the end of May. I believe it was May 28th. She -- the cops believe that that is when she stole it. And you should know it matches the caliber of bullet and gun used in the murder.

GRACE: May 28th, he`s killed June 4. Right?

ZARRELL: Correct. Correct.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are joining you live tonight from Phoenix.

Out to the lines, Nancy in Virginia, hi, dear, what`s your question?

NANCY, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi, Nancy. Love you. Love your show. Never miss it.

GRACE: Thank you.

NANCY: Here`s my -- you`re welcome. This is my comment/question. This is so clearly not a case of self-defense. And even if Jodi Arias isn`t in chains, why haven`t her attorneys go with an insanity defense? I mean, their defense attorneys do that all the time.

GRACE: You know what, they do do that all the time when they have absolutely nothing else they can do. And I think what they got stuck with here she is, she changed her story three times, and they were stuck with that so they really couldn`t say she was crazy because they were stuck then with the self-defense.

What about it, Caryn Stark? You`re the psychologist.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s not self-defense. I mean, she`s saying self-defense, Nancy, but it`s not insanity. She could clearly make up these different stories and try very unconvincingly to say that she was beaten by this guy.

And I want to say that this is not battered woman`s syndrome either. Really we can`t even begin to look at that. When you said O.J., I was really struck because this is narcissism, somebody who could not let go. And she was stalking him. She was indeed angry. But angry enough to kill somebody? Maybe he was less than honorable. But did he deserve to be killed? Of course not.

GRACE: And, you know what, I don`t even go, Caryn Stark, with the less than honorable. They broke up.

And, Beth Karas, thank you for correcting me in the commercial break. It wasn`t 300 miles this time. She drove 1,000 miles. She was stalking him even more, Beth?

KARAS: Yes. She used to drive 300 miles before she moved to Mesa because she lived in Southern California. But by the time of this killing, she was living in Yreka, California, with her grandparents near the Oregon border. She drove 1,000 miles. She started out on June 2nd. She rented a car from 90 miles away. She had blond hair. She -- it took her two days to get there. By the time she got there, that`s when she dyed her hair, between renting the car and getting to Travis` house because he took photos of her, which -- and one was shown during opening statements, and she`s got brunette hair.

So she changed her hair. She rented a car 90 miles away and she took the license plates off of one end of the car and turned the other license plate upside down. So that`s some of the evidence we heard in openings. That still will come in through witnesses in the days to come to show what the state says is premeditation.

GRACE: OK. Let me get this straight, Jean Casarez. I want to go back through what Beth Karas just said. She said -- and this is in response to Darryl Cohen and Brian Claypool trying to have some kind of a hybrid defense of woman scorned, I`m mad, battered women`s defense, stalker crazy. That`s where they`re coming from. So this is what we`ve got. She switched the tags around on her car. She stole a gun from her grandparents. She drove 1,000 miles. She went in a car. She altered her appearance. She dyed her hair. She took her own crime scene photos for Pete`s sake. Am I missing anything? Jean?

CASAREZ: Yes. There`s a little bit more to that gun because May 28th there was a "burglary," quote/unquote, in the home and it was reported. And so there`s documentation on that burglary. And there was strange things taken. I mean not the real valuables in the home but like a $20 bill was taken, plus the gun was taken in the burglary and that`s going to come in before the jury.

GRACE: Susan Constantine, body language expert joining us tonight out of Orlando, you`ve been carefully reviewing her behavior in court. What have you observed?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, you know, from day one there was that dark villain look. You know, she had that pale skin, the black hair, her attorney was dressed in red so it looked like dominance control and then blood. Then we move forward, we get into day three, and we`re looking at her now in this light blue top, softening up her look. She uses her hair as a hedge of protection around her, which is shielding off.

She doesn`t -- she is creating a barrier between her and the jury. And she has these very vulnerable gestures, her hands are near her neck, near her face, but there`re always barriers of protection around her.

In her videos, you know, she is very calm. She`s very approachable and the thing is what I don`t see in her are all the deceptive indicators that you would find in a deceptive person. What that tells us is that she believes what she is saying and she is very self-deceptive. That`s what I`m seeing with Jodi Arias.

GRACE: To Andrew Scott, former chief of police, Boca Raton, joining us. The sequence of events during the attack has really evolved.

How do you jive that sequence of events that we know happened. For instance, the 10 stab wounds to the back, he received, to her claim of self-defense?

ANDREW SCOTT, FMR. CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON, FL.; PRESIDENT, AJS CONSULTING: Yes, Nancy, crime scenes seized the true tale of what has expired compared to that of what either the victim or in this case the subject is saying has occurred. And so the physical evidence tells the tale of what actually happened and when you have a suspect such as this young lady here, she is conjuring up various aspects of what she says happened, but they don`t jive with the physical evidence.

This is a classic pitfall that many, many subjects succumb to when they are involved in these types of incidents involving physical evidence and subsequently they wind up getting themselves into trouble because the physical evidence doesn`t comport with what with they`re saying.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are live and taking your calls.

Beth Karas, I want to go through the order in which the murder occurred. And what was the weapon that she used to slice his throat, and explain -- you know what, let`s just go through the order of the murder.

KARAS: OK. Here`s what the prosecution believes the evidence shows. And the ME said today the stab wound to the heart, one of the three major fatal wounds would have been the first one, because the gunshot to the head, through the brain and slashed throat, he never could have fought. As Jean said earlier, he wouldn`t have had defensive wounds. So the stab wound to the heart probably came in the shower when she was photographing him and he`s crouched down and she had him in a vulnerable position. And so she may displayed the knife --

GRACE: What`s he doing crouched down?

KARAS: They don`t know -- the knife was never recovered.

GRACE: Wait a minute. I thought he was crouched down because she stabbed him.

KARAS: Well, OK. It`s interesting. No, he`s not wounded at that point. That`s the last photo taken before what they call an accidental photo. The camera she`s using, she took about 22 pictures of him in the shower, mainly from the waist up. They haven`t been displayed to the jury except a couple in opening statements. All of a sudden, after that crouched shot which is --


KARAS: I don`t know. Well, it`s a good question. Is he posing for her? Because he had been posing. He had been getting in shape for his Cancun trip which was to happen on June 10th, and this is June 4th.

GRACE: With another woman.

KARAS: And so there were these -- with another woman. With Marie Hall, the first witness in the case.


KARAS: And I mean is he crouching because she`s pulled the knife or gun on him? But yet she`s taking a picture of him, so it may have been just part of that series of pictures --


GRACE: This is him posing in the shower that Beth is telling you about, everybody.

Let me see that shot again. Oh, no, no, Beth. If she had a big knife or a gun, I don`t think he would be posed, I think he would be trying to defend himself.

KARAS: No, not yet. Not yet. He`s 5`9", she`s 5`4", she need to get him in a vulnerable position to level the playing fight for fighting him, right? So he`s down and that`s when she may be -- this could be argued -- displays a knife and stabs him. And the fight begins. Maybe where she stabs him and the fight begins. She has stunned him. He grabs the knife. He gets those defensive wounds in his hands, deep wounds in his left hand, mainly in his left hand, a little one on his right hand.

And then he gets up. He would have had the ability to get up even if stabbed in the heart because it wasn`t immediately fatal. So there`s blood around the master bathroom, and he`s stumbling, maybe fighting her. He stands over the sink. Remember that bloody sink? Well, he stands over it. He`s dripping into it. And it is possible that as he`s leaning over it, he`s spitting blood -- that`s the spatter -- she starts stabbing him in the head and in the back. All those stab wounds to the back.

And then -- now he`s getting dizzy, losing consciousness. He heads down the hall.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Private 1st Class Jordan Brochu, 20, Cumberland, Maine, killed, Afghanistan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Good Conduct medal. Loved fishing video games, sports, cooking, writing poetry. Leaves behind parents Dan and Suzanne, sisters April, Sadie, brother Aaron.

Jordan Brochu. American hero.


ARIAS: We were intimate, but I wouldn`t say romantic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: References to being used sexually by Miss Arias.


GRACE: Beth Karas, you were going through what we believe to be the order of the murder. It was so diversified. There were so many things to comprehend.

Beth, what can you tell me about upcoming voicemail messages that are set to come into evidence?

KARAS: Well, we did learn through the defense opening statement that a couple days after she killed Travis Alexander, Jodi Arias says she left him a message on June 7th. All right? His body is not found until the 9th, she kills him on the 4th. She leaves him a message on the 7th. That`s at least what she told Detective Flores that she`s had left a message, she hadn`t heard from him. She didn`t know what had happened to him and she was shocked to hear that he had died and she was fishing for information. She says she hasn`t seen him since the previous April.

GRACE: You know, it`s my understanding also, Bonnie Druker, speaking of voicemails and messages, that somehow, and I`m not sure why or how or which side is doing it, that a series of sex messages are going to be introduced.

DRUKER: Yes, and already there`s been some sexually explicit evidence in the courtroom. Travis Alexander asked Jodi Arias or stated to her that he was nothing more than a dildo with a heartbeat, and some of the words like whore and slut have come out, so I just anticipate of getting even more sexual as time goes by in this trial.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Mary in Indiana. Hi, Mary. What`s your question?

MARY, CALLER FRO MARY: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I just wanted to say thank god that you`re standing up for the victim, and he was the victim. I just think it`s a shame listening to these people try to say that it was battered women`s syndrome. I was in an abusive relationship for 18 years, and that`s kind of like an insult to the people that actually went through a situation like that.

GRACE: You know what, Mary, you`re right. And to top it all off, Beth Karas, he did not have an easy upbringing, did he?

KARAS: No, he did not. He had a very humble upbringing in California, as did Jodi Arias. Both of them did not come from a lot. Very humble. And Travis was really a success story in his family, and then his siblings were very proud of him.

GRACE: You know, Beth Karas, you, Jean, Bonnie, all of us back in the courtroom tomorrow.

"DR. DREW" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.



  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2013, 04:34:32 PM »


Jodi Arias Trial; Too Sexy Too Soon

Aired January 8, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): A day of graphic, bloody testimony in the Jodi Arias trial today. Arias cried while the jury was shocked at crime scene photos and sexually explicit pictures.

I want to know -- is Jodi Arias yet another Casey Anthony trying to fool the jury with emotional outbursts? And who do you think is ahead so far, the defense or the prosecution?

First up, we`re going to visit the Jodi Arias story. She hid her hair -- she hid behind her hair and cried today. Some people called it a veil of hair as grisly photos were shown to the jurors. She is on trial for murder in the death of her former boyfriend, Travis Alexander.

She first denied any involvement with him and then finally said, oh, no, no -- sounds like Casey Anthony again, right -- I had it wrong. I did kill him. I killed him in self-defense.

Joining me to discuss: attorney and legal analyst for Avo.com, Lisa Bloom.

Also, I`ve got attorney Darren Kavinoky, host of "Deadly Sins." This is on Investigation Discovery. A new season begins Saturday at 9:00 p.m.

And "In Session`s" Beth Karas, who is at the courthouse tonight.

Beth, please bring us up to date. I know you`ve been on "Nancy" and she`s been crawling all over the story. But bring us up-to-date with the highlights.

BETH KARAS, IN SESSION: Well, today was another gruesome day with photos. I believe the worst is over because the medical examiner testified and he detailed all those numerous knife wounds, the combination of incise wound slices, as well as stab wounds all over his body. And he did say he basically bled to death and there were three fatal injuries.

He gave what he thought was an order: at least a stab wound to the heart had to be first because he had defensive wounds on his hands. And he said a shot to the head which went through the brain and that slashed throat, which was four to five inches deep.

It went back to his spine and severed his windpipe. He never could have had defensive wounds. He wouldn`t have been able to fight with those two wounds. So, the stab to the heart had to have come first.

So photos of these were shown, and you just talked about Jodi Arias hiding in her hair.

You know what I thought, Dr. Drew? I watched Jodi throughout this. She was sneaking a peek at all of these photos.

It`s as though those photos, one could argue, made her cry a little bit more. So she kept crying, but she was looking and then she`d cry, and she would always sneak a peek as they put up a new photo.

PINSKY: Beth, you --

KARAS: She wasn`t hiding her head from those photos.

PINSKY: Do you get a spidey sense about here? Does anything in your gut tell you about who this woman is, Jodi Arias?

In fact, the footage, I like the way -- before you answer that, I want to say the footage being played alongside of me is her sort of looking like a librarian.

And what I find fascinating also, we`re going to have an expert in here to talk about psychopaths and how they behave. But she seems to have adopted I lot of the demeanor and physical properties of her attorney.


PINSKY: What does your spidey sense tell you, Beth?

KARAS: You know, it`s interesting. She is a woman that has such self-confidence. She told "Inside Edition" months ago, years ago, actually, that no jury would ever convict her. That`s a statement that may come back to haunt her, because the defense fought to keep that out, and the judge said, no, it`s coming in, but a latter part of that, she kept out, which was I`ll never spend a day in jail, and she`s been in jail since July 15, 2008.

So she`s spent time in jail for plenty of days. But she said, no jury will ever convict me. She took on this jury.

This is a woman who makes up stories that will kind of fit whatever the evidence is at the time. As she learned, apparently, that there was more and more forensic evidence placing her there and incriminating her, she kept changing her story to fit it.

And the other thing, Dr. Drew, is if she hadn`t thrown that camera, the digital camera, in the washing machine after deleting all the incriminating photos, if she had taken it with her like she did the gun and the knife, this would be a very different case. I don`t know if she ever would have been charged.

Maybe she would have been charged, but it would have been a very different case.

PINSKY: What is it about that camera? Help me understand that.

KARAS: Well, she had taken a series of -- she and Travis had taken a series of photos that day -- the camera, the digital camera, was Travis`, a new camera, and she loved photography. She was a photographer. It had date and time stamps on the photos.

There was three sets of photos as the prosecution described them. The first set is the two of them naked having sex, then they took pictures of each other naked, some of them very, very explicit. That`s 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon.

And then closer to 5:00, 5:30, Jodi is taking pictures of Travis in the shower, tasteful pictures. She`s not in the shower with him because it`s a small shower stall separate from the tub. She`s taking waist-up pictures, and he`s posing.

He`s about to go to Cancun with another woman, Marie Hall, who was a witness in the case, and Jodi knows that. And he had been losing weight and getting in shape and he`s posing. And then the last photo of about 20 she takes of him, he`s crouched in the shower and she takes a picture. She`s got him in the vulnerable position she needs him in, says the state.


KARAS: And she stabs him and then fight begins.

PINSKY: The fight begins.

KARAS: And the last photos are inadvertent photos, by the way. The camera went off accidentally. There are actually a couple photos during the killing.

PINSKY: Gives you chills, doesn`t it? You have disgust in your face.

BARON: Yes, it`s horrifying. Well, clearly, sometimes crazy sex is just crazy.

PINSKY: Well, that`s a whole conversation.

Lisa, a quick question before we go to break. How is this woman going to avoid the death penalty?

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s what this whole trial is about, Dr. Drew, trying to make her look more relatable, the glasses, the hair in face, you know, she`s Ms. Nicey-nice. There`s just hoping that a couple of jurors are going to spare her for the death penalty.

And I got to tell you, women do better when they were accused of violent crimes. White women do best of all. If she were male, if she were African-American, she`s more likely to get the death penalty in our system, I`m sorry to say so.

There is a possibility she gets found guilty but does not get the death penalty. Let`s see how it turns out.

PINSKY: Thank you to Beth Karas for that report.

And we`re asking a question of our viewers, who is the bigger monster, Jodi Arias or Casey Anthony? Call me to discuss. We`ll put you on the air. The number is 855-DRDREW5. That`s 373-7395.

Be right back.


PINSKY: Welcome back.

My co-host this week, Laura Baron and I are discussing the Jodi Arias trial. And what Jodi perhaps has in common with Casey Anthony. Both are criers, both are liars.

Joining me now to dig further into this is clinical neuroscientist, Michelle Ward.

Now, Michelle, I made an observation last break that everyone seemed very interested in, including Beth Karas who was in the courtroom all day, is that when you look at these images of Jodi standing next to her attorney, she looks like -- if you can play that tape next to me here.

See that, Michelle, she seems to have adopted the demeanor and appearance of her attorney, which to me is something a psychopath would do.

MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., CLINICAL NEUROSCIENTIST: Well, right. Or she could be under the advice of a jury consultant or her attorney. And they`re playing to the jury. I am also --

PINSKY: No, but, Michelle, you`re a jury consultant, I understand that. But it`s too good. You know what I mean? It`s one thing to say I`m going to show you how to act, it`s almost like they`re attuned to each other in some kind of way. I`m looking at the way they`re standing. They even kind of move in unison. That`s a weird thing.

WARD: How good is it if we can obviously pick up on it?

PINSKY: All right. Fair enough, fair enough.

WARD: I mean, she`s playing to the jury. And, you know, I mean, and, of course she should. I mean, she`s trying to, you know, get a lighter sentence if convicted.

But -- I mean, in reality, she should. I mean, she is looking like the part of the innocent victim here where it`s a very different picture than what we`ve seen before. I mean, she`s not the blond bombshell that we saw before. This is a demure, innocent person.

I don`t know if this is of her own accord or if someone is advising her, but it`s very obvious.

PINSKY: And what I`m trying to sort shine a light on it, I`m bringing this issue up. What psychopaths is they behave the way they think people would behave if they were having an emotion.

WARD: That`s right. And that`s why we see her crying as well.

PINSKY: Right. So the crying is what she thinks a person would do, if sad, having looked at these horrible images.

WARD: One of the researchers of psychopathy said this that, a psychopath knows the words of emotion, but the music of it.

PINSKY: Oh, it`s --

WARD: It`s a second language to them. So, they can learn it, oh, OK, this is what I do here. This is what normal people want to see, but they don`t feel it. They don`t experience it, they just learn how to mimic it.

PINSKY: Darren Kavinoky, you seem to want to get in here. I know you have a ton of things you want to address. Let me start out with this one thing. It seems like the courtroom has a tendency to want to blame the victim. That seems to be a big part of the defense here, to make the poor guy that got slashed and slaughtered the problem.

Is that a good defense?

DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I don`t know whether it`s a good defense or not. Ultimately, it`s going to be up to the jury to decide whether that`s a defense that`s ultimately effective. From the defense case perspective, you`ve got to play the cards that you`re dealt, and if their defense that they`re hitching their wagon to is, indeed, self defense, you`ve got to put the victim on trial, as it were.

But I do agree that this is a case that ultimately a victory would be keeping her off death row.

And, of course, as Lisa pointed out, and I agree with this and the data supports it, that women tend to fare better, and Caucasian women in particular, when they`re accused of capital offenses.

That said, in Arizona, of the four women that had been put on death row since 1973, all four of them are Caucasian women. So if we`re going to be playing the odds there, perhaps being a white female in Arizona isn`t the best.

But that`s certainly something the defense has to be considering if they`re putting the victim on trial, is, number one, how to do it so that they can effectively defend their client, but how to do so in a soft enough way so that the jurors don`t hate her and punish her if they do finally get to a sentencing hearing.
The one final thing, Drew --

PINSKY: Go ahead, Darren.

KAVINOKY: -- that really puzzles me is about this whole lookalike business between her -- between Arias and her lawyer. Lawyers typically exert a lot of control in their client, because, of course, trial courts really are a theater. And effective trial lawyers like to control every element that they can.

It`s a little surprising to me to see this doppelganger thing going on here, because you would think the lawyer would be saying to her, look, we need to dress you a particular way, you need to look a particular way, and this lookalike business is pretty off-putting.

I`m wondering, Dr. Drew, given your background in behavioral health, how do you think this thing comes off?

PINSKY: Well, first, it immediately struck me as something a psychopath would do, frankly, because it`s just too much of an -- you know, behaving as if, behaving the way I think someone is supposed to behave. Oh, my attorney, she would be a good person to -- is that your gut tell you that, too, Laura?

BARON: Yes. The question that I have actually is that you still see her psycho eyes. I mean, she might have little glasses on them, but doesn`t it get to a point where somebody is so -- I guess the clinical term is psycho -- that they start physicalizing whatever is going on in their head? You cannot look at this woman and not think, like, whoop.

PINSKY: Well, it`s technically, I`m sure that, Lisa, the jury is being instructed not to jump to those kinds of conclusions. Would you have an issue with your client dressing and looking like you? I know --


PINSKY: Yes, that`s what I would say.

BLOOM: Yes, because I`m a lawyer, but I`m also a human being, and that`s creepy and, you know, get your own look, I`m sorry.

But I also say this, Dr. Drew, I noticed today, one of the clips, she`s got her glasses on -- you know, I have reading glasses I put on when I have to read something, right? But when she`s reading, she`s looking over her glasses as though the glasses are just completely blank, clear glass and not actually there to help her read.

If the jury saw that, they know it`s just part of a costume, too, then.

PINSKY: To be fair, I look over my glasses to read because I`m near- sighted. Maybe she wears contacts. Maybe those are really her glasses.

BLOOM: She`d never worn them before.

PINSKY: Which I find -- that`s bizarre, too, if she`s wearing near- sighted. She wears contacts in prison? That`s kind of weird. OK, anyway.

Let`s take a call. This is George in Massachusetts -- George.

GEORGE, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Yes, Dr. Drew. I`m a retired law enforcement officer.

And first and foremost, this crime was absolutely horrendous.


GEORGE: She killed an unarmed man inside of a shower. He had defensive wounds. She had no wounds, no visible injuries that she`s reporting or anything else like this.

I think it`s an absolute crock. I hope the jury gets it right. I hope they don`t let her walk like they did Casey Anthony. This is an absolute atrocity.

And shame on the defense team for putting the victim on trial. He was a victim. How do you accuse somebody who was taking a shower of physical abuse? She just calmly, coolly and collectively walks away from a crime scene. Never even cries for help.

PINSKY: George, let me ask something -- have you ever dealt with somebody that`s that cold-blooded in your career?

GEORGE: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Oh, man.

GEORGE: Absolutely. And it`s absolutely sickening. The only thing that the D.A.`s office can do right now is to put the evidence out there and let her be seen for the vicious little nasty woman that she is.

PINSKY: Fair enough, my friend. I`ve got to go to break. I`m sorry, George.
I want to ask my attorneys, too, when we get back, also, do you think -- I don`t want to use all the adjectives that George used there -- do you think the defendant will be likely to be seen on the stand? I`ll ask that. Also the effect the grisly crime scene photos have had on our jury.

We`ll find these things out when we get back.


PINSKY: Laura Baron is back with me talking about the Jodi Arias trial.

The question is, what will the graphic crime scene, photos and autopsy, photos as well, have on these jurors? How can they be objective?

And, Lisa, the second part of that question is will we likely see her on the stand?

BLOOM: I think no. And I`ll tell you, that`s because she lied a couple times about what happened, and it`s hard to imagine that they`re going to actually put her on the stand and subject her to cross examination by a prosecutor who is going to shove all those lies down her throat.

So I`m sure her attorney is going to say no. If she wants to, it`s her right. She can get up there and she`ll definitely be convicted if that happens.

PINSKY: And, Darren, is the grisly nature of the photos likely going to play into the jury`s decision-making?

KAVINOKY: Yes, you can`t unsee those things once you`ve seen them. It`s powerful evidence. Prosecutors love them, defense lawyers hate them. It`s highly likely it will be influential.

And I absolutely agree with Lisa on this one. It would be a horrific move for her to take the witness stand. You generally only want to do so if there is some essential element only the defendant can speak to. But, of course, she`s got the absolute right to do so.

And if everybody is as crazy as everybody thinks, you may just see her up there on that stand.

PINSKY: And, Michelle, you`re a jury consultant. And imagine when a jury sees these sorts of grisly, horrible crimes, they want to -- they want justice. They want to take out their retribution on somebody.

So, do you advise defense attorneys? Do you -- does it matter who is sitting in those seats? Is that the bottom line here? How does that work?

WARD: Well, it`s interesting, with human psychology, of course, they`re going to be incredibly affected by these photos, but they habituate to them. So, if they`re going to see them, as a defense attorney, I want them to see -- well, I`m not -- but if I were I was advising a defense attorney, I`d want them to see them over and over and over again because they habituate to them.

I`ve worked on a lot of crazy murder cases, and that`s what I say. Hey, if they`re going to see it, let`s over-show it, because they do eventually get used to it and it doesn`t have the impact.

PINSKY: So it`s not as bad after repeated exposure.

WARD: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Michelle, let me ask you this question. What do you suspect could make somebody snap like this? Was it premeditated and she`s just a psychopath and she was getting retribution for this guy cheating, or did they get in an altercation where suddenly they have her violent?

WARD: It`s worse than that. She`s a stalker. She`s an absolute stalker.

She presented like a typical female stalker, the obsessive thoughts. She tied up her identity with this relationship. As soon as there was an infidelity, she responded with rage, and that`s what we see, this kind of irrational thinking.

And on top of that, she now looks like she`s an absolute psychopath. I don`t normally see that presented that way. I mean, obviously stalkers have a similar pattern to one another, and she fit perfectly into that. And now, I`m looking at her just like a regular murder I deal with.

PINSKY: So, Laura, you have her parked outside an old boyfriend`s home, and kind of waiting to see if his car is there.

BARON: Like five times.

PINSKY: That`s stalking behavior.

BARON: But I did not kill them.

PINSKY: I understand that. I understand that.

BARON: Because I`m a lady, Drew. Because I`m a lady.

PINSKY: So, Michelle, just for the record, she`s not a psychopath. Stalker, but not a psychopath.

WARD: Hey, we`ve all gone to the crazy place.

PINSKY: I don`t need to know that about my guests, by the way.

BARON: Now you do, drew.

PINSKY: Lisa, you? No, Lisa, no?


PINSKY: Thank you, Lisa. I know I could count on you.

BLOOM: Let them go! If they don`t want you, let them go!

BARON: Agree.



PINSKY: Darren, real quick, go ahead.

KAVINOKY: Yes, one quick thing. On this issue of self-defense, if the jury is buying self-defense, and that`s a big if, the number of stab wounds may actually be helpful and here`s where those grisly photos can work, because people --

PINSKY: Show the hand wound here if we can.

Go ahead, Darren. Go.

KAVINOKY: When people are engaged in self-defense, the number one thing on their mind is stop the threat. And so that means repeated behavior. So typically if you`re shooting with a gun and it`s truly self- defense, you`re going to empty the magazine. You`re going to empty the gun.

If a knife is your weapon of choice, you`re going to see multiple stab wounds. If you`re truly defending yourself, you`re not going to just strike once and hope that`s doing the job. So, if they`re buying it, and that`s a monumental if, that`s something we can expect the defense team to try to spin to their advantage. A tough sell but that`s what we`re going to see.

PINSKY: Guys, I`ve got to take a break.

Thank you, my excellent panel. Darren Kavinoky, thank you for joining us.


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« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2013, 06:24:18 PM »

This woman has ice water running in her veins, just like Casey does. No remorse except for herself. Hope they have a smarter jury on this case than they had for Caylee..

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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2013, 07:58:58 AM »


Witness: Jodi Arias Romanced Him after Murder

Aired January 9, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, what Jodi Arias did with another man hours after stabbing Travis Alexander 29 times, slitting his throat and shooting him in the forehead, and how that other man testified today that Jodi showed up are his house and seemed just fine, thank you, even laughing and, of course, flirting.


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, stunning testimony about what Jodi Arias did with this man just hours after violently stabbing and shooting Travis Alexander.

Ryan Burns`s testimony is complete with Jodi`s flirtatious messages to him. And why did he testify that Jodi is stronger than she looks? Was this petite, five-foot-four-inch woman in an out-of-control jealous rage? Was she consumed by an obsession of love, sex and male attention?

RYAN BURNS, TESTIFIED IN MURDER TRIAL: And one day, while he was taking a nap, I took his phone and read his text messages, and it seemed like she didn`t trust him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see any blood coming from the neck area?

BURNS: Every time we started kissing, it got a little more escalated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you associate that blood with?

BURNS: The cut to the throat.

She was -- definitely seemed to be into the moment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the palm of the left hand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were these consistent with defensive wounds?

BURNS: She got on top of me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this a wound that could kill this person?


BURNS: She`s a lot stronger than she looks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How deep is this wound?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It goes all of the way back to the spine.

BURNS: She had two small bandages, it seems like, on one of her fingers.

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: I would be shaking in my boots right now if I had to answer to God for such a heinous crime.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you do have to answer. It`s called a court of law.

Tonight, sex and secret messages exposed in open court as the Jodi Arias murder trial gets more and more interesting. Will Jodi`s romantic trysts with another man just literally hours after she violently killed Travis Alexander ruin her claim of self-defense?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.

The 32-year-old bombshell admits she stabbed her ex-boyfriend 29 times, slit Travis Alexander`s throat ear to ear and shot him in the face, but she says she was just defending herself.

Today the jury heard how Jodi left this blood-soaked house after killing Travis -- and just look at what she did to his hands before she leaves the house, leaves him there to decompose, and drives 700 miles to Utah and then literally climbs on top of another man. That man took the stand in court today and said Jodi seemed just fine and ready for romance with him.


BURNS: And the second we woke up, we were -- we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what else happened?

BURNS: She got on top of me pretty aggressively and we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she got on top of you pretty aggressively, where was her genital area compared to yours?

BURNS: She was right on top of me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who does that? Who kills somebody and leaves a very bloody crime scene and a dead lover in the shower, and then drives 12 hours to another state to take a roll in the hay with that dead man`s work colleague? Unbelievable.

The prosecution also reveals some flirty, sexy messages that Jodi sent the new boy toy while she and Travis were still talking to each other. Listen to this.


BURNS: It says, "Hey, there, handsome. This is a test."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her saying to you, "Hey, hottie-biscotti, what`s new?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Along with introducing Jodi`s flirty "hottie- biscotti" messages, the prosecution literally brought out a piece of the very bloody carpet from the crime scene in open court today. This was just absolutely extraordinary, and Travis` family turned away, upset over the sight of Travis` actual blood on the carpet.

The prosecutor also showed a photo that matches what some people call the smoking gun. There is Jodi Arias` palm print, and prosecutors say it matches a bloody palm print that has a mixture of Jodi and Travis` blood that was found at the crime scene.

What do you think about all this? I want to hear from you. Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to our own senior producer, Selin Darkalstanian, who has been in court.

Selin, there were so many shockers in court today, up until a few moments ago. We`re going to keep playing them all this evening. What were some of the most out outstanding moments for you today?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: One of the most powerful moments in court today was the prosecution brought out that bloody piece of carpet that you were just mentioning and showed it to the jury with Travis` dried blood on the carpet.

It was -- he was bringing the crime scene to the jury, physically holding it up for the jury and saying, "This is what the carpet looked like." I mean, he`s standing right in front of them, and to me, that was the most powerful moment.

Obviously, the sisters got emotional. That`s when Jodi started crying, putting her head down. That to me was the most powerful.

But of course, we also heard from the guy -- who we see what happened to Jodi and what she was doing moments after she killed him, the day after she killed him, and it`s pretty shocking. I mean, imagine, she just left a gruesome, gruesome crime scene. She killed someone, drives to Utah, starts kissing a guy and making out with him, getting on top of him. She`s going to a Chili`s restaurant with him, acting like everything is OK. And that`s what`s shocking. You have to think, how was she able to block out what happened and lie, and act normal?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, speaking of lying, this was another shocker. Just a couple of minutes ago, we just turned around the tape as fast as we could. Listen to this in court just moments ago.

We hear, you know, Jodi talk to the detective. She calls him right after Travis` body is found. And she says, "I want to talk to you." He calls her back. And here is her unbelievably theatrical reaction, because he`s taping the whole thing, you know, because he`s a detective.

And he says, "Well, how did you find out that Travis has died?" And here is what she said. Listen to this one.


ARIAS: Well, yes. He said, "It`s about Travis, lots of blood." You know, that`s never good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He said that, yes (ph).

ARIAS: Yes. So -- but I didn`t think anything at first. I mean, I`m kind of, "OK, what?" You know.

And he -- he said, "We found him."

And I was like, "Well, what does that mean?"

"Well, I don`t know."

"Well, what do you mean you don`t know? What do you know?"

"I don`t really know anything right now. I just know that Brent High (ph) is at his house, and Tiara Server (ph) is at his house. And the cops are there."

And I was totally shocked. I don`t think that I said much. I think that I -- I just kept thinking that maybe there`s a mistake. Maybe there`s a mistake, I`m sure. And he didn`t really know, so I texted him, thinking that there was a mistake and he couldn`t say anything. He didn`t give me any information, so I thought -- he said I was the first person they decided to call.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. She`s pretending she knows nothing about this crime, and she knows everything about the crime, because now she`s admitted she was there. She knew he was dead.

She says, "I was so shocked. I felt helpless."

She knows all about the crime. She`s the one who is standing right there as Travis Alexander bled onto his sink. She`s the one who stabbed him 29 times.

So Simone Bienne, psychosexual and relationship therapist out of Los Angeles, what strikes me is the ability of this woman to lie, glibly lie. And I mean, listen, some of these people -- I`ve always said this about these pathological liars. If they had gone into acting and put their talent to lie to positive use, but this is an acting job that we`re hearing.

SIMONE BIENNE, PSYCHOSEXUAL AND RELATIONSHIP THERAPIST: Yes, I mean, this is absolutely sick, Jane. It`s the real-life "Fatal Attraction." Only sadly, the reality actually outdoes the fiction, which we all thought was very extreme at the time.

And what she`s displaying are these very, you know -- whether there was trauma, we don`t know, but these sex-addictive extreme love-addictive behaviors, obviously, you know, borderline personality traits, where there is this huge murderous rage, fear of abandonment, inability to have relationships. I mean, it`s absolutely horrific.

And the thing that gets me is that, if there was trauma, if she has experienced some kind of sort of violation to her body, which she may have felt that Travis was to her, because we`ve heard so explicitly about the sexual acts, did she harm his body as a way to get him back, because she violated that body? It wasn`t just a straight shot to the head, as we have all seen on your report. She really, really went for it. Perhaps she was symbolically reacting to how she felt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that`s a very good point. She had built up a resentment. What we learn in our sobriety, as a recovering alcoholic, is that the worst thing for us, or for anyone, is a resentment that builds and builds and becomes more toxic, and sometimes rage can build. And so -- excuse me -- it would seem that perhaps that was the case here.

This entire trial -- you just mentioned "Fatal Attraction." This has been a real-life fatal attraction case. Jodi has been painted by the prosecution as a jilted, unhinged woman, a real-life fatal attraction story. You`ll remember this movie from Paramount Pictures. Check it out.


GLENN CLOSE, ACTRESS: I just want to be a part of your life.

MICHAEL DOUGLAS, ACTOR: This is the way you do it? Showing up at my apartment?

CLOSE: What am I supposed to do? You don`t answer my calls. You changed your number. I`m not going to be ignored.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But in "Fatal Attraction" the female stalker played by Glenn Close dies. In this real-life horror -- you`re seeing the autopsy photos here -- prosecutors say Travis was surprised and overpowered by his obsessed girlfriend, who had previously slashed his tires with a knife, et cetera.

Michelle Ward, psychologist and host of Investigation Discovery`s "Stalked," this is a female stalker case, according to the prosecution. But sometimes men don`t take female stalkers as seriously as they should.

MICHELLE WARD, HOST, INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY`S "STALKED": Well, Right. A lot of people don`t take female stalkers as seriously as they should. And -- and actually, they are just as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than their male counterparts.

I mean, Simone`s correct. She was certainly displaying evidence of borderline personality disorder, wildly emotionally unstable, inability to maintain this relationship. And she tied a lot of her identity up to Travis. I mean, she became a Mormon to try to be somebody he could marry.

And she was really controlling. I mean, from what I`ve read, she was trying to control all aspects of the life.

But borderline personality disorder sufferers don`t often kill. I mean, they can, but they often hurt themselves. And, well, she was the type of stalker we see on our show.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, this is an extreme stalking case is one way of putting it. We have more on the other side, and we`re taking your calls.


BURNS: She`s a lot stronger than she looks. She eventually kind of grabbed me and adjusted me a little bit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you form an opinion as to her strength?

BURNS: Yes, she`s strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe the wounds to the hands must have occurred before the fatal injuries either of the head or of the throat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you notice her hands?

BURNS: She had two small bandages, it seems like, on one of her fingers.




BURNS: At some point, I mean, we were talking and we kissed. Eventually, we kissed probably many times. Every time we started kissing, it got a little more escalated.

She was kissing my neck and I was kissing hers, but clothes never came off.

I never touched her breasts or anything like that. At one point I had my hands on her -- her thighs, and she was, you know, things were -- she definitely seemed to be into the moment. She got on top of me pretty aggressively, and we were kissing.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This just hours after she, now by her own admission, killed Travis Alexander. She makes a beeline to his co-worker`s house and is fooling around with him. Unbelievable.

And in one of her online conversations with this new boy toy, Ryan, Jodi admits secretly going through Travis`s phone. On it she finds the number of a woman she thinks Travis is secretly dating while still having sex with her. Listen to what she decides to do next.


BURNS: "I decided to text her back, quote, `Time to cuddle with Jodi. Good night.` Then I deleted the message, went to sleep, and never mentioned it to him. One day while he was taking a nap, I took his phone and read his text messages. Bad, I know."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Bad, I know." Of course, that young man is reading what Jodi said to him on a text message.

Add this to the many stalking tendencies: the tire slashing, allegedly; anonymous e-mailing Travis` other girlfriends, warning them to not to sleep with him; moving near Travis after they broke up, and Travis caught her, friends, say, hacking his Facebook account.

Anahita Sedaghatfar, criminal defense attorney, how can the defense argue self-defense when she was stalking him, allegedly, leading up to this killing?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I certainly do not envy the task of the defense attorneys here. Clearly, they have an uphill battle.

But Jane, you and I have seen time and time again that there is no such thing as a slam-dunk case. We`ve seen it in many high-profile cases. We saw this in the O.J. case, Michael Jackson case, recently in the Casey Anthony case. And quite frankly, the defense is doing exactly what they need to be doing to prove that this was not a premeditated first-degree murder case.

First there`s the issue of the gun. The prosecution has not presented any evidence showing their theory that this defendant stole the gun, brought the gun to the victim`s house with the intent to kill him on that day. And how -- first they haven`t proven that.

Second, they -- the manner of killing is something that they are going to focus on. The defense is going to focus on the fact that, if she clearly planned and plotted this murder, she could have just walked in and shot him. They argue she...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Maybe she wanted to have sex with him first before she shot him.

Joey Jackson, I can hear you almost, shaking your head. What do you make of this argument that, oh, self-defense is a viable argument here?

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, here`s the problem, Jane. The problem is -- is that her conduct thereafter is completely inconsistent not only with that defense but with human nature.

Not everyone acts the same, that`s true, but there are certain standards that we`ve come to expect. If someone attacks you, Jane, what do you do after you engage in that behavior? You call the police.

What else might you do? You certainly wouldn`t go to someone`s home in an effort to fondle them, and have relations with them. That`s not on your mind.

You wouldn`t speak to a detective and you wouldn`t say, "Oh, really? My goodness. Oh, this is how I reacted when I first knew."

So there are certain things, and there`s certain behavior which are completely inconsistent from a person who was attacked. And that`s the bigger problem here, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anahita, your chance to respond?

SEDAGHATFAR: Right, but who`s going to make that allegation? The defense is going to call their own mental-health expert, domestic-violence expert, a battered-woman expert, and that witness is going to testify that there is no typical behavior of women like this.

That -- and we saw this also in the Casey Anthony case, that people act in certain ways, abused women, women that are victims of domestic violence. And sadly, this is part of the defense strategy, is that because they are claiming self-defense, they are, to a certain extent, going to have to put the victim on trial here. And that`s exactly what the defense is doing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, "In Session" correspondent, you`ve been in the courtroom. I`ve gotten a sense that it`s kind of scatter-shot. The prosecution is proving that she did some terrible things. Right after killing him, she goes and has a little nookie with this other guy across state lines.

But in the process, we`re also hearing some unflattering things about Travis Alexander. What exactly are we hearing? And could some of that work for the defense?

BETH KARAS, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Well, there are little tidbits the defense gets out of this. For example when Ryan Burns, her new love interest, was on the stand today, he talked about talking to Jodi Arias the -- on Tuesday evening. He was supposed to see her on Wednesday, but she`s at Travis`s on Wednesday. So she gets to Ryan Burns a day late, June 5, Thursday.

He`s talking to her Tuesday night, and she leads him to believe that she`ll be there. It`s a 12-hour drive from Pasadena. She will be there 12, maybe 15 hours; she`d stop and nap. And -- and so the defense wants the jury, I think they`ll argue, to believe that, for whatever reason, Jodi veered off and went to Mesa, Arizona. She did not set out this trip to go to Mesa, Arizona. It was not premeditated. She did not intend to even go to Arizona. She was going to see Ryan Burns in Utah.

So that`s something that goes in their favor. It doesn`t trash Travis. What came out today is, OK, he`s a flirt. He`s a flirt with the ladies. That was his reputation.

But Jodi, in a little bit played a conversation she had with a police officer on June 25, just before she was arrested. She said, "Travis was a good friend to everyone, even after we broke up."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she says some nice things about Travis Alexander. So it`s absolutely extraordinary how much detail and how talkative she was with this detective. We`re still hearing more tape of her conversation with him. More on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On June 9, 2008, Travis Alexander`s friends discovered his decomposing body in the shower of his master bathroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been advised that he`s dead in his bedroom. We -- we hadn`t heard from him for a while. We think he`s dead.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you -- I have to ask you this, did you kill Travis Alexander?

ARIAS: Absolutely not. No, I had no part in it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: "I had no part in it," but then she changed and said it was a home invasion. And then after that, she said, "Yes, I was there, but it was self-defense."

Now we`re hearing that she high-tails it out of there after killing him and goes across state lines to Utah and canoodles, has nookie, whatever you want to call it. We`re coming up with more and more different cute ways of saying you know what. She`s making out with another guy after this killing, which is extraordinary.

The prosecution had a key piece of evidence that was brought in today. They really took the crime scene and brought it into court. Take a look at this. They actually took a piece of Travis Alexander`s carpet from his home, and they brought it into court and held it up.

This is -- they`re showing the photo, but they also took the actual carpet -- right there -- and they held it up to the point where the family of Travis Alexander was devastated, because they`re seeing his actual blood there.

I`ve got to just very quickly go to Beth Karas on this. That`s unusual, isn`t it, to bring an actual -- I mean, they had the photos. Why bring the actual carpet in?

KARAS: Well, I see it done. When they can, they`ll do it.

And you know, I was watching them handling that carpet, and the blood is soaked straight through the back. This is a thick carpet, and it was -- you could see a big blood stain on the back of it, as well. And it`s remarkable how big that deep red stain is. That`s where the state believes that his throat was slashed ear to ear, three to four inches deep, right back to the spine.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go to the phone lines. Jan, Florida, your question or thought? Jan, Florida.

CALLER: Hi, Jane.


CALLER: I`m wondering about Jodi Arias` childhood. I haven`t heard anything about whether she came from a stable home, whether there were any traumas.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Selin Darkalstanian, senior producer, we`ve heard that she had a boyfriend previously who had a good job, and he had a son. And we even saw a picture of him. And that she has no criminal record and that she was actually, at the time of this crime, living with her grandparents.

So, to all appearances, that`s what`s so crazy about this. She was not a bad girl in the sense of racking up some kind of rap sheet. She has a clean slate, correct?

DARKALSTANIAN: Right. She had no criminal history like you said, and we do know she was living with her grandparents. She comes from a really small town. It`s on the California/Oregon border, called Yreka. But, you know, she left, and she lived in other parts. You know, she lived in Palm Desert for a little bit and then she lived in Mesa. It sounds like just had some odd jobs here and there.

But aside from that, we haven`t heard much more. I can tell you her mom and her aunt and some family and friends have been in court every single day, sitting in the front row, you know, supporting her, sitting right behind her.

She has siblings. She has a sister and a brother. We haven`t seen them in court, but we`ve definitely seen her mom and her aunt in court every single day.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s got to be a very awkward courtroom, as it is usually is in these kinds of cases with the victim`s family on one side and the defendant`s family on the other side.

And having been in court for these kinds of very high-powered trials, it`s very awkward. People have to use the bathroom, and they`re all of a sudden -- they`re going into the bathroom together, the opposing sides, and coming face to face. And it`s very emotionally charged.

More on the other side. And in fact, on the other side, we`re going to talk to some really, really good friends of Travis Alexander, particularly one of his very best friends who is speaking to us exclusively tonight. He has never spoken before because he`s been so distraught over what happened to his dear friend.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or that she would always follow around him and the girls he was dating. And I`ve heard stories of her watching them sleep or heard stories of her watching through windows or doorways. And there is stories of also, allegedly, her slashing the tires two nights in a row outside of his girlfriend`s house.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: She arrives June 4th. She and Travis have sex and then she kills him leaving a trail of blood that goes from his bathroom to his bedroom and back again. Jodi stabs Travis 29 times and slits his throat from ear to ear to his spine and shoots him. Then she leaves his body in the shower where it is discovered five days later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom and we haven`t heard from him in a while. We think he`s dead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So where is Jodi Arias while Travis` body decomposes in his own shower? Jodi drives straight to Utah a 12-hur drive to visit another love interest, Ryan Burns, and they end up fooling around shortly after she arrives.

RYAN BURNS, FRIEND OF JODI ARIAS: From the second we woke up, we were kissing. She got on top of me pretty aggressively, and we were kissing.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This has been an absolutely extraordinary day in court. You are taking a look by the way of some new photos that we have just gotten of Travis Alexander. And I was looking at the photos and they really show his charm and I think they show why he was so popular. You can almost feel his charisma through the photos, surrounded by friends, surrounded by some beautiful women as well, and he just has an expression that is charismatic. And that is how so many people describe him.

We have been talking about the gruesome testimony, the gruesome photos at the heart of this case, the wounds so violent they leave you wondering how could this sort of petite woman have done something to a much larger man? But listen to what the guy who fooled around with Jodi Arias hours after she killed Travis said about her powerful build. Check this out.


BURNS: I complimented her on being very feisty and just kind of referring to she is a lot stronger than she looks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you able to see her stomach in terms of whether or not she was in shape.

BURNS: Yes, close to a six pack, yes.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So when the jurors look at this gruesome photographers and wonder how could a petite woman inflict this kind of damage on a larger man, don`t just think of size and weight. Yes she is only 5`4 and Travis was 5`9 but the prosecution is proving she was no delicate flower -- anything but.

I want to go to my exclusive guest Mark Brummet, Travis Alexander`s best friend, and this is the first time that Mark has spoken, because to my understanding he has been so upset about what has happened in this case.

And I want to thank you, Mark. I have been looking at some photos of you and Travis and other friends out and about and it is clear that you guys had a very tight close relationship.

We`ve been hearing audio recordings of Jodi Arias pretending that she knew nothing about Travis` death to the cops when in fact we all know that she was there and she killed him. And the question is was it self-defense or was it some kind of jealous rage as prosecutors contend. What bothers you most about how this entire thing has played out given that Travis Alexander is not here to defend himself or explain or put anything in context?

MARK BRUMMET, BEST FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Well, I think that the hardest thing for me is just how much of an affect he had on not only myself but everyone that came into contact with him. You know, like you said, it is something that was so hard for me that four-plus years later I`m still crying about it. You know, it is not something that I like to think about. It`s not something I like to talk about.

And for her to take it so lightly and to just bounce from story to story it just shows the disconnect there, you know. People who actually had those true interactions with him; those people that he actually got to interact with and touch and change, you know, you can see that. You can see the difference there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As I have been reading about Travis, I have been touched by many things. One for example I happen to be a animal lover and I was reading on a blog of a friend of his, that he was a great animal lover and was fighting even for a cause that I have been fighting for a long time which is to help the treatment of farm animals in factory farms and stop keeping them in crates. Give us that sense of his heart.

BRUMMET: you know, Travis is one of those guys that -- he was extremely successful. He drove a BMW and when Honda Prius came out or Toyota Prius came out, he went and bought a Toyota Prius, because when he had time off, he wanted to see the world. And he could not stand going on a road trip in his BMW when he knew that he could be in a Toyota Prius and you know, saving the environment in that way.

You know, it wasn`t something that he just, he spoke about. I mean, he bought a Prius to go on road trips.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, another thing that I have in common with this victim, I have had two Priuses so far. I don`t even own a car right now, but I just want to say that you seem -- this seems very emotional for you. Obviously, it happened a long time ago in 2008, but why is this still really making you fight back tears essentially?

BRUMMET: Well, I think that the big thing is, you know, the interactions I had with Travis completely changed who I am today and I don`t mean that lightly by any means. You know, there are people that you meet that have a positive effect on you, and you remember them. But truly the person that I was and the person I am now is a direct effect from who Travis helped me to become.

I used to struggle with my self-confidence and I didn`t believe that I would ever have friends or that anyone would ever want to be friends with me -- I didn`t have anything to offer. And when I was on a road trip with Travis and you can see those pictures there where we went up through Utah, Travis had mentioned how he went to sleep listening to self-confidence tapes and stuff.

And I went to Travis and I said, I don`t want to overstep my bounds here, but I was wondering if you could help me out, you know? I don`t have what you have. And from that point on, Travis, he really took me under his wing and he helped me to develop not only self-confidence, but the ability to see the best in others.

You know, he was one of the guys that if you went to him complaining about someone, you would leave feeling bad about that, because he helped you to see the good qualities that the person had. And every day I think about Travis and I think about what I can do to make him proud of me. That is why it is so hard for me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I hear how hard it is for you. Meanwhile, we have been paying attention to the defendant, Jodi Arias` appearance in court. And we are seeing look after look. Not only is she playing a "blame the victim" strategy by trying to paint Travis Alexander as some kind of a sex fiend, she has also been sort of manipulating her appearance. She was, day one, serious; this is day two, and then wearing a green outfit; and day three, she is wearing glasses all of the sudden.

Did her hearing suddenly and her eyesight suddenly go bad? I believe that she is trying to look less and less like a temptress and more and more like a prude, something like a librarian.

Dave Hall, you knew Travis Alexander, and also Jodi Arias; tell us what you think about the courtroom appearance?

DAVE HALL, FRIEND OF RYAN BURNS: Well, obviously, her defense attorneys have done some research on the first impression. They want to paint a picture to the jury that this is a feeble little, you know, bookworm that could no way do these horrible things unless her life was in jeopardy and it was self-defense. And I think most people that know her can see through this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask Mark Brummet, if I may, I know you guys are right next to each other in Phoenix, Arizona. Travis Alexander has been painted as some kind of well, if you listen to the defense, a sexual deviant. But his friends who have taken the stand have said well, he was a lady`s man. He was very flirtatious. What can you tell us about that?

BRUMMET: Yes. Definitely people got along great with Travis. You know, him being a straight guy, he was interested in women, and he was very charismatic. He had a fun time with everybody, and I will say that if there`s anything that I knew about Travis, it is that I would trust him with my sister.

He is one of those guys where he may flirt with girls a lot. He may joke around. He may even take them on a date, but that`s going to be a date to Chili`s, you know. It`s going to be a date where he is respectful to them, and that was the extent of it, you know. I never met any female that was friends with him that I ever got a message different than that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, thank you for sharing your experiences. I really, really appreciate it. And I know it is hard for you.

On the other side of the break, we are going to talk about Dave Hall`s experience with Jodi Arias who spent the night at his house.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My heart just sank immediately; on the right-hand side I did end up seeing a pool of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he has. He has this ex-girlfriend that`s been bothering him. Her name is Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was her demeanor like?

BURNS: She was fine. She was laughing about simple things and just like any other person. I never once felt there was anything wrong about the date.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: What an emotional day, and right now we are talking with two dear friends of the victim, Travis Alexander. Remember the defense has really tried to smear this man and the family of Travis Alexander are outraged. Well, now we are getting the other side. We are hearing from his friends who know him best about his character.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It says, "Hey, there, handsome. This is a test."

Her saying to you, "Hey, hottie biscotti, what`s new?"

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dave Hall a good friend of the deceased Travis Alexander, what`s your reaction to the word that we are getting that she killed Travis and then goes and fools around and makes out with another man within hours?

HALL: Well, I think it paints a pretty accurate description of the type of person that we are dealing with. I mean anyone that could kill anybody and then not be physically ill -- let alone how brutal it was, to then turn around and go have some type of romantic event within hours of basically barbarically brutally killing someone you professed your love to is beyond me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She spent the night at your house. What did you experience? What is she like?

HALL: Well, her and Travis had come up for vacation to Utah numerous times and every time they came to Utah they had a place to stay at my guest bedroom. And when they were up there, I really enjoyed Travis` company. And quite honestly Jodi spent an entire week at my house and I might have gotten three or four sentences out of her the entire time. She was just a mysterious person, and we can just add that to the list of reasons why we told Travis he could do better than this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Brummet, Travis Alexander`s dear, dear friend, if you had one thing to tell the world about Travis Alexander in his memory, what would you say?

BRUMMET: I would say, don`t underestimate yourself. You know, when I think of Travis I think of movies like "Coach Carter", "Remember the Titans" and even all those other sports movies where the underdog comes up and by the end of the movie, you just feel empowered. You want to go out there, you want to make the world a better place and you want to help people and you want to be your best self. And that was Travis` number one mission.

He said that he wanted to be on the cover of "Time" magazine, and it wasn`t because he thought he was better than other people. It was because he knew that was a display of how great he had become. And if I would have been on the cover of "Time" magazine a week before or week after, that wouldn`t have mattered to him, he would have been just as excited, because he would have known that I had become what I could possibly become. And that is what Travis would want from myself and from all of us.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark, I want to thank you so much for joining us tonight, and my heart goes out to you and everyone; Dave Hall, all of Travis Alexander`s friends.

HALL: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, we are going to examine this defense and sexual obsession.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that has been bothering him and following him and slashing tires and things like that.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about what happened in court today. Prosecutors bring out an actual piece of the bloody carpet from Travis Alexander`s home. And we`re also going to talk to some experts in sex and romance about obsessive love and why Jodi was obsessed with Travis.



JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI ARIAS` ATTORNEY: As Travis would explain to Jodi, oral sex really isn`t as much of a sin for him as vaginal sex. And so he was able to convince her to give him oral sex. And later in their relationship, Travis would tell her that anal sex really isn`t much of a sin as compared to vaginal sex. And so he was able to persuade her to allow him to have anal sex with her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Simone Bienne, psychosexual and relationship therapist, the defense is using a "smear the victim" defense and talking about their intimate sexual details as she alleges. Saying that they play games and that he made her wear a shirt that showed that she was his property and made her wear a French maid outfit around the house. And they claimed that he tied her up, none of which can be proved.

But there is a huge link between playing sex games and committing the kind of violence that we`ve seen in these crime photos. In fact, the two of them really aren`t connected at all, are they?

SIMONE BIENNE, RELATIONSHIP THERAPIST: Yes, exactly. The thing is people can pathologize these kind of sex games and actually there`s not necessarily pathological behavior. Sex is about power and control and most of us exchange power and control in our sexual relations in a very healthy and loving way. Even if there are some handcuffs involves or some tying up or anything like that.

The point is that what she is doing is she is painting, as you say Jane and all your experts have said, she is painting the victim and actually victims have an awful lot of power. So actually she could have been manipulating him by trying to get power over him by engaging in these sex games by doing what he wanted so that she could have control over him. We just don`t know the full story yet.

But what we do know is what I thought -- sorry, very quickly, Jane, what was very interesting was that somewhere I read that Travis actually said that he was nothing more than a sex toy with a beating heart. So we know that he is saying she wasn`t present in their sexual behavior. She wasn`t emotional. She was dead inside.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Speaking of that, we have that clip where there`s the prosecution showing that Travis felt that Jodi used him for sex. And this is a sexually-charged comment but let`s hear it, and it is, again, said in open court even though it`s graphic.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: With regard to that reference involving that particular comment, why was that comment made as indicated in that document?

DET. ESTEBAN FLORES, MESA, ARIZONA POLICE: References to being used sexually by Miss Arias.

MARTINEZ: What is it saying?

FLORES: Specifically, let me read it from here. "I think I was little more than a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) with a heartbeat to you."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And so essentially that`s Travis Alexander saying that he feels used sexually, which is exactly what, Simone Bienne, psychosexual therapist said is that when a man and a woman engage in sex, consensual sex, and they`re playing games, it doesn`t mean that the man is always using the woman. A woman could be using the man. And it doesn`t really matter what their roles are in those sex games. They can be both.

It can be a very unlikely scenario as to who really has the power in that kind of relationship and, again, I think that it has nothing to do with killing someone. The games that are played in the bedroom do not correlate to violence in the bathroom or in the hallway.

More on the other side.



BURNS: It just seemed like they were just on the way to breaking up and they kind of hooked up a few times after they had broken up.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Psychologist Michelle Ward, host of Discovery Investigation or "Investigation Discovery", stalked -- you just heard it, they were both trying to break up. So many people the relationship goes toxic and for some reason they still cannot break up and just really go their separate ways. Why?

MICHELLE WARD, PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, the "why" is the problem and we don`t know why. They come from -- stalkers come from different backgrounds. She really presented pretty typical like a typical female stalker until she killed him and then she looks exactly like a psychopath - - completely devoid of remorse, empathy, guilt. And she seems like she`s antithesis of who he was. She`s the opposite of who Travis was who was a very empathetic, kind person.

The defense is going to do what they have to do. They have limited avenues to take given the damning evidence that`s there. So yes, she is trying to play the -- she is trying to play the victim card but she doesn`t fit that profile. She fits the profile of a scorned stalker and then a psychopathic murderer.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anahita Sedaghatfar, criminal defense attorney, your final thought on her defense?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: My thoughts are that this is not a whodunit. We already know that she committed this crime. The issue really is going to be self-defense. And, to be honest with you, I think the strongest thing she has going for her is her appearance. She is an attractive, young, petite, seemingly demure young lady and the defense is hoping that at least one of the jurors will have sympathy for her and spare her, her life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joey Jackson, 20 seconds.

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Do not demonize the victim overly if you`re the defense here. It can backfire. He died a very brutal death. I think the jurors are sympathetic of that and demonizing him, I think, is problematic.

Finally there had better be some corroboration for the allegations of his sexual deviancy, otherwise that will be a further problem.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. The jury may get very angry that the defense is blaming the victim. They don`t like that.

Nancy is next.



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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2013, 08:07:36 AM »


Arias: Deadly Details

Aired January 9, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Another shocking twist in the trial of Jodi Arias. Today`s testimony showed that just hours after killing Travis Alexander, she went to be with another man.

And what the jury saw today. More bloody crime scene evidence. Is the jury influenced by her claim of self-defense after having seen such graphic pictures?
Let`s get started.


PINSKY: First up, though, we are getting into this Jodi Arias case. Relationship coach Laura Baron joins me this week.

Now, Laura, the day after Jodi Arias kills Travis Alexander, she has said she did this, she goes to visit another man, Ryan Burns, and here`s what he said in court today about their sexual encounter just hours after she in fact murdered Travis. Take a look.


RYAN BURNS, TESTIFIED TO KISSING JODI ARIAS THE NEXT DAY: At some point, I mean, we were talking and we kissed -- eventually we kissed probably many times. Every time we started kissing, it got a little more escalated.

She was kissing my neck. I was kissing hers. But the clothes never came off. I never touched her breasts or anything like that.

At one point I had my hands on her thighs. She was -- you know, things were -- she definitely seemed to be into the moment. As she got on top of me, pretty aggressively, and we were kissing.


PINSKY: All right. Laura, I want you to give a woman`s perspective. This young lady brutally kills a guy. Viciously.


PINSKY: A lady indeed.


PINSKY: Viciously kills a guy, then heads on over to this guy`s house and assaults him sexually. Good times.

BARON: Yes. Well, I`m sure he had a good time. I mean, I`m sure there was a little roughness in that, let`s be honest. Let`s just say. But I have such a difficult time feeling any sort of sympathy for this girl, especially after three different excuses she throws up the abuse excuse.

And for all of the women who are actually in abusive relationships, I feel like she`s just making a mockery of it. Woman to woman, I have no sympathy. Nothing.

PINSKY: So you can`t find anything sympathetic about this girl? Let`s say this guy had been abusing her in some way. She snapped. Even so, forget it?

BARON: If he had been abusing her, but I`ve got to tell you, Drew, I don`t buy it. I`m just not buying it.

PINSKY: I`m with you on that. I am. "In Session`s" Beth Karas joins us now.

All right. Bring us up-to-date and tell us the significant of Ryan Burns` testimony today.

BETH KARAS, IN SESSION: I think you really have hit the nail on the head here. It`s her demeanor and behavior just hours after this brutal killing. The state wanted the jury to see that this is a woman who is a cold and calculated murderer. Of course the defense says I`m not, you know, she`s not a murder, this is self-defense, she killed him because she had to.

But he also said he saw some cuts on her fingers which were bandaged. And she said she cut her hand at work on a glass. And she was only there for 15 hours. So, it was really just to kind of put her before the jury, her demeanor the day after the killing.

PINSKY: And, Beth, let me ask you something. I`m going to ask you to respond as a woman, because this case is sort of generating a lot of feelings in women today. Do you react to this woman in any way to help me understand who she is or what prompted this behavior?

KARAS: You know, we don`t know a lot about her. We know she was in a four-year relationship and then when she met -- and she was living with this man. And then when she met Travis Alexander within a week or so, they were still living in the same home but apart from each other apparently and then it ended right away.

So, she fell very hard for Travis Alexander. We don`t know if she carried on this way with other men, though, this stalking behavior, this obsessive behavior. But I do know that her parents told the police that she was hard to control as an adolescent, was always running away, and she dropped out of high school. But she didn`t have a criminal record.

But as a woman this obsessive behavior, the stalking, I mean, I really can`t relate to it, but maybe she saw him as a meal ticket for her because he was a very successful young man.

PINSKY: Beth, you have to think with pathology in your soul. You have to think about somebody who`s not well.

Laura has admitted to a little stalking behavior here and there. She admitted to it --


PINSKY: -- in younger years.

This is excessive stalking. What came out in court for me made me start to think about dissociative identity disorder.

BARON: Which is what?

PINSKY: Which used to be called -- thank -- by the way, thank you, Beth Karas, for keeping us up-to-date in the courtroom. We really do appreciate it.

Dissociate identity disorder is what used to be called multiple personality disorder.

BARON: Oh, yes.

PINSKY: So literally it`s kind of complicated but one person goes under and another one emerges. One can be a psychopathic killer. One can be a kindergarten teacher. One can be gay and one can be straight. One can be male, one can be female.

And all these different personalities emerge with time. And literally when one is control, in control, let`s say the guy who went to --

BARON: So there`s two personalities.

PINSKY: There may be many, many, many. Many personalities. There`s usually an executive personality.

Look at her in court crying. Look at that, Laura.


PINSKY: Do you feel like those tears are from a deep place? Do you connect to an emotion there? Or do you feel like that`s just somebody who`s crying because, well --

BARON: I definitely feel like she`s removed, if that`s what you`re saying.

PINSKY: It`s fascinating you say removed because, again, a dissociative person would be upset and angry and removed from what happened and yet reacting to what some part of her did. So, it literally is a disorder of being removed.

BARON: So there`s a part of her that knows that she boiled the bunny.

PINSKY: Boiled the bunny and I can`t believe it, could that really have happened, oh, I`m so ill, oh, my -- woe is me.

BARON: Is that why she`s crying in all of the pictures? Because she recognizes that something is guilty --

PINSKY: Maybe. Or she`s a true psychopath and is just behaving the way she thinks she should behave, emotions that a normal person would emit if, say, they weren`t guilty.

BARON: So which girl do you think he was dating? Because I bet that guy liked a little crazy.

PINSKY: Well, he got it. He certainly got that.

BARON: Yes, he did.

PINSKY: Again, you`re scaring me a little, Laura.

But joining us now, Judge Karen Mills Francis, author of "Stay in Your Lane: Judge Karen`s Guides to Your Best Life." And criminal defense attorney, he has a Web site, speaktomark.com, Mark Eiglarsh.

All right. Karen, what does it do to Jodi`s case to know that she killed a man viciously, I mean, just brutally, and then goes and hangs out with another guy and doesn`t seem fazed in the least?

JUDGE KAREN MILLS FRANCIS, "STAY IN YOUR LANE" AUTHOR: Well, you know, I think, and you should know this, I know you know this, dr. Drew, is when there is a dysfunctional relationship, usually that dysfunction is going on both ways. You know, in an alcoholic relationship usually somebody is an enabler.

The victim grew up in a home with two drug addict parents and spent a lot of his childhood homeless, in and out of homeless shelters, sometimes living in his car. That`s what I read about him.

So we don`t know what mental dynamics he brought to this relationship. But it was honestly a very dysfunctional relationship. I mean, she slashed his tires twice. She hacked into his Facebook page. She`s sending threatening e-mails to his girlfriends. She`s following him when he`s on dates.

And yet at 4:00 in the morning when she shows up, he welcomes her in and they have sex.

PINSKY: Yes. Karen, you are so right on with that. I mean, it takes two. And what I always say is that the traumas of the past attract us to a certain kind of people and certain kinds of situations. And why was he attracted to her? Laura says he liked crazy.


PINSKY: That`s one way of sort of summarizing and making it easy to understand that. But the reason he liked crazy is he grew up with crazy.

BARON: Of course.

MILLS-FRANCIS: He grew up with crazy. It feels comfortable, familiar.
PINSKY: Mark, do you agree with all that?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sounds good to me. But you know, who knows better is someone like yourself. You know, I`m only as good as the experts that I can call on a case.

And I`d like to put you on call right now and ask you, Drew. If I called you as a defense expert and I asked you to support the defense theory which they`re advancing, that somehow this was domestic violence related, it was self-defense, she finally just exploded. I`m putting you on the spot. What would you tell the jury to support the defense theory?

PINSKY: Now, remember, this is not my personal belief. This is me working for you, Mark.

EIGLARSH: Yes, that`s correct.

PINSKY: I would bring up exactly what Judge Karen just brought up and talk about the probability of that trauma inducing aggression and potential violence in him, which we don`t know if he had. I don`t want to -- I hate this idea of making the victim -


PINSKY: I hate it. It disgusts me. But you put me on the spot here.

EIGLARSH: But their expert is going to give facts that is going to support this theory.

PINSKY: That`s going to happen. And then I would talk about her having been triggered by al that and sort of playing it and maybe dissociating. All right, guys.

BARON: You don`t take responsibility away from anybody.

PINSKY: Well, unfortunately, you are on to something there, Laura.

BARON: All right. Next up, the tape played in court, Jodi talking to police after the killing and a physician who used the courtroom evidence to recreate the viciousness of Travis Alexander`s death.

And later, binge drinking putting large numbers of women in danger. That`s right, their lives in danger. This also harkens to our topics of the Steubenville, Ohio case.

All of that after this.



ZACK BILLINGS, FOUND TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S BODY: They did end up seeing a pool of blood and looked down the hallway and saw just blood strewn throughout the hallway. I ended up going into the closet that`s adjacent to the hallway, and it opens up to the bathroom as well. And that`s when I saw his body, and I came back out, and I just told everybody, he`s dead. Call 911.


PINSKY: And that was one of Travis Alexander`s roommates talking about what he saw when he found Travis`s body after a brutal murder.

Mark first, then Karen -- what do you guys think the effect of seeing and hearing al this graphic evidence is doing to the jury?

EIGLARSH: It does the same thing in this case as it does in every single gruesome, atrocious, and cruel homicide case. It absolutely makes them more likely to want to hold responsible. That`s the human response.

And I don`t know. The defense in this case, I don`t see it. And I think you take the atrocious nature of this defense. You add in the fact that they`re blaming a guy who would have given you the shirt off his back according to witnesses, who`s like just a perfect type of fella, and you get an angry jury willing to convict and they`re going to then bring that into the penalty phase eventually and hold that against her.

PINSKY: Karen, do you agree, is this really about keeping her out of the death sentence?

MILLS-FRANCIS: Well, I think this defendant is in trouble --

PINSKY: Go ahead.

MILLS-FRANCIS: I think this defendant was in trouble before these pictures even came into evidence. I mean, for God`s sake, she`s given three different stories. I wasn`t there. Oh, yes, I was there, but then there were two masked people that came in and killed him. Oh, well, no, that didn`t happen, he beat me up. Oh, yes, I went to work after that at a Margaritaville and cut my hand and then went and made out with one of his co-workers. I think it --


PINSKY: Thank you. By the way, thank you, Karen. By laying it all out like that you see how ridiculous it is. You`re right. Lies and lies.

MILLS-FRANCIS: No jury is going to -- no jury is going to convict me. So she`s already built a hole for herself. These pictures just throw more dirt into that hole.

PINSKY: I wonder if the control room could please put alongside of me here the pictures of her with her attorney today because people are very fascinated by how alike she`s made herself up very much like her attorney. And when you see the two of them relating to each other, there`s the picture coming up now. Let`s see if we can get the attorney in the picture.

It`s un -- it`s spooky how much she wears the coloration, the glasses, and moves with and mirrors the attorney in a way that kind of gets spooky.

And my theory about dissociative identity disorder kind of fits with that, where people are so empty that they are just chameleon-like and take on the people they`re around. She sees the attorney as someone she needs to emulate because -- there she is. See how they`re kind of -- it`s just - - if you think of it in those terms, it gets spooky. But I`m going to bring in another guest.

Laura, you wanted to add something?

BARON: I just think it`s interesting they think she looks more psycho blond than brunette.

PINSKY: Who`s they?
BARON: One for the brunettes. Right?

PINSKY: What you`re saying is you shouldn`t die your hair blond is what you`re saying.

BURNETT: This is true.

PINSKY: Joining me to get further into this is a board-certified pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd. He`s performed over 500 autopsies.

Dr. Lloyd, thanks for joining us today.

Based on your experience, can you lay out for me -- just let`s forget that -- this is not a court of law. This is viewers and TV trying to make sense of this. Just paint the scene for me. Who was she? What kind of condition was she in? What does she do to this guy? What was the sequence?

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST AND SURGEON: Yes, every autopsy tells a story, including a murder autopsy. And I call this story reverse psycho.

Oh, yes. There was mayhem in the bathroom. But this time, the pretty woman was outside the shower. And she was the one that was wielding the knife.

Now, we have to understand the sequence of these injuries because they tell the story as to where the body was and how it ended up back in the shower. So this gentleman, Travis, took a couple of stabs perhaps to the back first, turning around and protecting himself. A defensive posture --

PINSKY: That`s the hand -- there are the hand injuries we`re looking at right now. Good. He tried to defend himself and pow, she attacks him.

BARON: So gross.

LLOYD: There`s two of them. There`s the active defensive posture. That`s the cut that`s right down in the webbing there. He`s actively defending himself.

And then on the back of the hand as he covers his face the knife cuts --

PINSKY: Go back to that one if you would to see that.

LLOYD: And those are called passive defensive injuries.

PINSKY: Got it.

LLOYD: So he`s had a couple of injuries now. Hands, on his back. And then comes the big lunge into his chest.

Now, Drew, you`re a doctor. You know, the human body, how about five quarts of blood?

And when you get near the major vessel like the vena cava, up in the middle of the chest --


LLOYD: -- your blood circulates through there six times per minute. Six times five, 30. That means he starts bleeding at a horrendous rate of 30 gallons a minute. He doesn`t last a minute.

PINSKY: Doesn`t last long.

LLOYD: There`s an enormous amount of blood. So now he`s --

PINSKY: Have you seen the neck footage? I wanted to show it tonight. I thought it was important. I really did.

BARON: It`s gross.

PINSKY: But the network -- it`s not gross. It is gross -- but it`s not gross but our job is to examine what happened here. When you see it, she cut him right up along the neck line all the way across down to his spine. It was uncanny -- did you see those pictures, Dr. Lloyd?

LLOYD: I did. And it`s a very clumsy Mafioso attempt to slit this gentleman`s throat.

But you bring up the very important point, layer upon layer. What kind of person? I`ll ask you. You are America`s expert on this behavior. What kind of person is it that stabs somebody in the chest, then slits their throat and then later shoots them in the head?


LLOYD: You mentioned dissociative behavior. What about borderline personality and that connection?

PINSKY: I agree with you. I think this is sort of -- again, I don`t want to cast aspersions on people with borderline. It`s a common condition. Doesn`t mean they`re going to be murderers.

But as you get into the severe borderline with love addiction, with a history of aggression, with perhaps violence perpetrated against her, they said she ran -- Karen tells us that she ran away from home as a child. That`s not normal behavior. Something was already going on.

And there`s none of the psychopathic antecedents like torturing animals or showing absolutely no empathy. There`s more of a chameleon-like sort of person here, and that is more in that borderline spectrum here to the point of what they call dissociative identity disorder.

Let me ask Mark. If the defense were wise, would they want to stay away from those kinds of explanations or is that something they should try to use?

EIGLARSH: They`re going to use it in the penalty phase once she`s convicted. All that becomes relevant to try to save her life, try to create some mitigators, reasons why they shouldn`t kill her versus the aggravators, which are obvious in this case. You don`t bring that up in the case in chief. They`re alleging self-defense. They`re alleging he was the aggressor and they`re just going to trash him throughout the trial, hope that it works.

It won`t. And then we`ll go into the penalty phase where they`ll bring all that in.

PINSKY: Laura, here`s what I want to do. You seem -- you`re worked up about all this, yes?

BARON: Well, first of all, this is so disgusting. I mean, to look at all the pictures --

PINSKY: There`s him in the bathroom now.

BARON: That was nauseating. I`m equally nauseous again.

PINSKY: It`s sick but this is what happens. If we`re going to examine this thing we have to unflinchingly look at this. Don`t bring our kids in the room to talk about it, but let`s -- if we`re going to look at this let`s look.

BARON: I agree. But I`m going to flinch.

PINSKY: Yes, yes. I`m not saying I want to look at it. Just if we`re going to do this, let`s do this.

BARON: Right. But all of those things you that talked about, like her running away and all of those like -- all of that craziness, addiction in her family earlier.


BARON: -- isn`t that enough? I know you guys are talking about dissociative and borderline. But all the of those things, isn`t that enough to just make her go --

PINSKY: Yes. It is all those things. What are the circumstances where someone could be out of their head quite literally? These are some of the conditions where that could happen. What Dr. Lloyd is referring to is borderline rage. Is that not what you meant?

LLOYD: Right.

PINSKY: Borderline rage.

LLOYD: But, you know, she has planned this, Drew. She planned this.


LLOYD: This had been all laid out. This was no snap decision. She`d been stalking this guy for a very long time.

PINSKY: And that`s that rage that`s unremitting and just consuming. It`s very different than some of these other sorts of crimes we`ve been talking about. Now, we`ve got lots of great calls coming in. I want to hear from you. The phone number is 855-DRDREW5.

And later, another thing that`s still got me upset is, of course, that Ohio case where the 16-year-old girl was allegedly raped by two teenage boys. There`s now some studies that have just come out connecting binge drinking and young girls with precisely these sorts of outcomes.

We`ll talk about that. Stay with us.


PINSKY: OK. Now, we are discussing the Jodi Arias case, and we are getting into it a little bit. I want to remind people what I`m trying to explain is this idea she may have an identity disorder where she sort of takes on people she`s around or may have these other identities that are sort of hidden within her that come out or one dates this guy, another dates another guy. It`s a very complicated disorder.

You still want to know, Laura, which one the victim was dating.

BARON: Right.

PINSKY: The sex addict.

BARON: And rightfully so.

PINSKY: There we go. Cynthia -- I`m going to go right to calls. Cynthia in New Jersey. Cynthia, go ahead.

CYNTHIA, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Yes, I`ve got one word for you, Dr. Drew. Psychopath.


CYNTHIA: Is her and Casey Anthony friends? They`re very similar. They`re both chronic liars. They both claim abuse.

You know? I mean, it`s ridiculous.

PINSKY: And, Karen, weren`t you saying earlier that it was the victim that had a history that was pretty chaotic in his childhood?

MILLS-FRANCIS: Yes. It was the victim who had the history. But you know what I`m willing to bet you, Dr. Drew? That once this jury convicts this defendant we`re going to hear about the type of childhood and life she grew up with, because I believe that they probably should have gone on some sort of defense of temporary insanity.


MILLS-FRANCIS: Because I believe issues of her mental state are going to be an issue in the death phase of this case. So why are we talking about that now? We created this smoke screen with domestic violence when the real issue is that you are dealing with somebody with some sort of serious emotional disconnect.

She planned to kill him when she went there because she had a gun and she had a knife. But guess what? She sexed him up before she killed him. Who does that?

PINSKY: Well --

BARON: Somebody with manners.

PINSKY: This chick does. That`s the bottom line.

Listen to this tape from a police interview with Jodi Arias two weeks after she killed Jodi -- after she killed Travis. Watch this.

JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: I shouldn`t have done it but I grabbed his phone and I looked at his text messages. And I found, there were tons of girls that I`d never heard of. And I knew that he knew a lot of people from the business. So I didn`t worry too much about it.

There were like plans, like things like where do you want to meet? I don`t know. Where`s the best place for us -- wherever the best place for to us make out is.


PINSKY: All right, Laura. You react to that. That`s what she came across. Made you pretty angry, right?

BARON: Well, it is just -- you know what it is? It`s that she gives girls that have moments of psychotic notions a really bad name. You know? I mean, as we were saying yesterday, everybody has their crazy moments. But can`t you have good sex and not slit the dude`s throat 27 times?

PINSKY: I guess that`s the question we`re asking.

Mark, let me go to you. Mark, this is, again, some of the Casey Anthony-esque qualities of this case, being defensive, trying to explain away just egregious behaviors.

EIGLARSH: Yes. Well, the analogy stops because the evidence in Casey Anthony, according to those jurors, fell short of showing exactly how this happened. In this particular case it`s not a whodunit. We know exactly how it took place.

And I agree with Judge Karen. The defense should have been -- and it wouldn`t have worked, by the way, should have been some type of insanity defense. It wouldn`t have worked. But winning in this case from a defense perspective is defined by doing everything you can to get the best possible outcome.

That defense, insanity, wouldn`t work. Neither is this going to work. But you`re trying to save her life. So by having the mental -- the state of mind come out during the guilt phase, that then will flow over into the penalty phase.

PINSKY: Got it. I want to bring panel --

EIGLARSH: You don`t insult the victim the way they`re doing.

PINSKY: I get it. Hey, Dr. Lloyd, before I let you go, I want you to hold up that knife again for me.

LLOYD: You bet.

PINSKY: And tell me this.


PINSKY: Is this -- is this likely to be the kind of weapon that she used?

LLOYD: In order to reach the vena cava, this thing`s going to have to be more than four or five inches in depth. And again, remember-w that cut on the hand, it`s clear that Travis was trying to actively stop the knife. He didn`t do a good enough job.

PINSKY: Please be careful. You`re making me feel the willies here.

All right. Thank you. Mark Eiglarsh and Dr. Lloyd. We will be talking much more about this case in the days to come. Please keep watching.

PINSKY: And the Jodi Arias case is not going anywhere. We will stay on top of that.

BARON: Oh, yes.

PINSKY: I think we`re all going to be glued to the television as that sort of --

BARON: She riles me up, Drew.

PINSKY: Yes, it`s interesting. Does she -- let me ask one quick question.


PINSKY: Does she evoke violent fantasies in you?

BARON: I mean, what are the violent fantasies --

PINSKY: Well, like you`d want to -- I don`t mean sexual fantasies.

BARON: No, I know.

PINSKY: Like I want to strangle her --

BARON: But I really do -- it bothers me. It most bothers me that she uses now abuse as a defense.

PINSKY: Well, she hasn`t yet. She hasn`t yet. And listen, I`m just saying I think she`s so empty inside that she takes on all these personas and we`re going to learn about that --

BARON: And women, I think, have a very difficult time even relating to her.

PINSKY: We`ll find out more about her, I think, in the penalty phase than in the actual trial.


PINSKY: Thank all my guests tonight. I really do appreciate all the input. Of course, those of you who called, we had excellent calls tonight.


PINSKY: And, of course, as well, the viewers at home, we appreciate your watching and staying with us. It`s going to be interesting next week. A reminder, "Nancy Grace" is up next. She starts right now.


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« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2013, 09:37:27 AM »

Jodi Arias Caught Lying to Cops in Recorded Phone Calls
January 10, 2013

(PHOENIX) — Jodi Arias blatantly lied to police who asked her about Travis Alexander’s death, telling them in recorded phone calls that she kept trying to call and message Alexander the week of his death but never heard back from him.

The phone calls were played on Wednesday as evidence during the fourth day of Arias’ trial, in which she is charged with murder and could face the death penalty if convicted of killing Alexander in a “depraved and heinous” way.  Arias has admitted to killing her former boyfriend, but claims it was self-defense.

During the phone conversations played in court, Arias can be heard telling Mesa, Ariz., detective Esteban Flores that she last talked to Alexander on Tuesday, June 3, 2008, around 10 p.m.  She had been in Los Angeles, about to leave to go to Utah to visit a new love interest, she said.

After June 3, he stopped calling her back, she said.

“On Tuesday night (I talked to him), it was brief though, 10 o’clock maybe.  I’d say 10 p.m. or 9-9:30.  I was calling people because I was bored on the road.  He was nice and cordial, but kind of acting like he had hurt feelings,” Arias said.

“I may have called him Wednesday, from the road, and I sent him a couple of text messages, and a couple of pictures,” she said, though Alexander didn’t pick up and his voice mailbox was full.  “That’s unusual.  He deletes all of his messages.  I didn’t want to be obsessive about it because we’re not together anymore and I didn’t like to call too much.”

According to court records, Arias, 32, actually went to Alexander’s home in Mesa on Wednesday morning.  There, the pair had sex and took graphic photos of one another with Alexander’s camera.

Then, Arias is believed to have killed Alexander, 30, in his shower by stabbing him, slashing his throat from ear to ear, and shooting him in the head.

In the phone conversations, Arias told Flores that she considered calling Alexander’s friends when he stopped returning her calls on Wednesday, but didn’t want to act like “his mother.”

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« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2013, 03:51:27 PM »


In case anyone is interested in watching the trial.
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« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2013, 05:36:25 PM »

Both Jodi Arias and Casey Anthony are serial liars.  JMHO
(2 pg article)
Jodi Arias Lied About Her Job, Relationship and Killing, Testimony Shows
January 10, 2013

Jodi Arias lied about her relationship with Travis Alexander, where she was when Alexander was killed, and even where she worked as a bartender, according to the case laid out by prosecutors in her murder trial.

Prosecutors opened the fifth day of her trial by using Arias' receipts for food, gas and a car rental that essentially tracked her movements in the days before and after Alexander's murder on June 4, 2008.

The testimony today also showed that Arias had lied to her new boyfriend Ryan Burns about working at a bar called Margaritaville in her hometown of Yreka, Calif.

"Is there any restaurant in Yreka called Margaritaville? Has there ever been?" prosecutor Juan Martinez asked Nathaniel Mendes, a former detective with the Siskiyou County Sheriff's Office in California.

"No, sir," Mendes replied.

The testimony is apparently intended to bolster the prosecution's portrayal of Arias as a serial liar who continually denied her involvement in Alexander's death until she eventually confessed to killing him months after his bloody body was found at his home in Mesa, Ariz.
Arias claims Alexander was a controlling and abusive "sexual deviant" who she was forced to kill in self-defense.

But in testimony today and Wednesday, prosecutors pointed out several lies Arias told around the time she killed Alexander.

Mendes testified that Arias worked at a restaurant called Casa Ramos in Yreka, not a Margaritaville bar that she told Burns. Mendes also went over receipts showing that Arias rented a car the day before she killed Alexander, and noted that she went to a rental outfit 90 miles from her hometown despite two businesses that rented cars in Yreka.

Arias told friends and investigators that she rented a car to go on a road trip to visit Burns, in West Jordan, Utah, on June 3, 2008. She showed up to Burns' house a day late with cuts on her hands, but told Burns that she got lost driving and that the cuts were from broken glass at her Margaritaville bar tending job, according to Burn's testimony Wednesday.

The trail of receipts showed that Arias drove from California to Alexander's hometown of Mesa on Tuesday, June 4, 2008.

There, the pair had sex and took sexually graphic photos of one another, according to photographs and the opening statement of Arias' lawyer. Shortly after the tryst, Arias killed Alexander, both sides agree.

Burns testified that Arias never mentioned going to Alexander's house when she arrived at his home in Utah. He said he did not know that Arias and Alexander were still sexually involved, and that she told him they had broken up.

When she arrived at his home, just 24 hours after killing Alexander, she seemed "normal," he said. The pair kissed and cuddled, and went out with Burns' friends, where she laughed and made conversation.

Prosecutors have also played recorded phone conversations between detectives and Arias in the weeks after Alexander's body was found. She can be heard lying multiple times to investigators as they ask about the last time she spoke with Alexander and her trip to Utah.

Video at Link

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« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2013, 05:45:02 PM »



Jodi Arias Murder Trial Day 4

Aired January 9, 2013 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet on a trip for work to Vegas and fall hard. But when the flame burns out and they break up, she then moves 300 miles to get back together, to pursue him, even converting to Mormonism to get her man.

Then 30-year-old Travis Alexander`s found slumped dead in the shower of his five-bedroom home, shot, stabbed 29 times, violence so brutal, it resembles a mob hit.

Bombshell tonight. We learn just hours after Arias stabs her 30-year-old lover, Travis Alexander, to death in the shower, Arias has sexual contact with a brand-new boyfriend, egging the new boyfriend on sexually, even climbing on top of him as if nothing is wrong. And the whole time, Travis Alexander`s body is decomposing in a damp shower stall!


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the key witness today is Ryan Burns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former friend of Jodi Arias who she had a romantic relationship with.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He lived in Salt Lake City. She went up to see him...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About 12 hours after Travis was murdered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did this kissing continue or did it just stop at one kiss?

RYAN BURNS, FORMER LOVER OF JODI ARIAS: Eventually, we kissed probably many times. Every time we started kissing, it got a little more escalated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never mentioned a word about what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was her demeanor? Was she upset? Was she happy?

BURNS: She was fine. She was laughing at simple little things. I never once felt there was anything wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the door was opened...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My heart just sank. And I did end up seeing a pool of blood.

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I`ve heard all kinds of rumors. They said there was a lot of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body was found in the shower.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you notice (INAUDIBLE) actually had any injuries or cuts on one of hands?

BURNS: She told me she worked at Margaritaville and she had cut her finger. She broke a glass.

ARIAS: ... hurt Travis. I would never hurt Travis. I would never harm him physically.

BURNS: Complimented her on being very feisty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis`s family and friends say Jodi was stalking him in the months before the murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody had mentioned that Jodi might quite possibly be involved, and then I started connecting the dots.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. Just hours after Arias stabs her 30-year-old lover, Travis Alexander, to death in the shower, Arias actually has sex contact with a brand-new boyfriend, egging him on sexually, even climbing up on top of him to get him to keep going, as if nothing is wrong. The whole time that she`s making out with this guy, Travis Alexander`s body is decomposing in a damp shower stall, and she is carrying on normally as if nothing has happened!

A positive ID of a palm print, Arias`s bloody palm print, Alexander`s blood, her palm print in Travis Alexander`s home. Now, how did that happen?

This as she goes so far -- as I`m talking to you, we are digesting police recordings of Arias. When they first questioned her, she refers to Travis Alexander as commitment-phobic. Hello! You`re the axe murderer. No wonder he doesn`t want to commit to you!

Straight out to Christina Estes, anchor with KTAR. Christina, thank you for being with us. What happened today? It`s like a bombshell every couple of minutes in the courtroom!

CHRISTINA ESTES, KTAR RADIO (via telephone): Bombshell is certainly an appropriate word today, Nancy. People who haven`t even been following this case closely, just regular folks here in the Phoenix area, heard about this testimony today and really are speechless.

Ryan Burns, pivotal, pivotal witness for the prosecution because people, again, who haven`t been following this word by word, say, How do you say that you -- this is in self-defense, and then 24 hours later, you`re making out with some guy?

GRACE: Joining me right now, straight off the witness stand, the former lover of Jodi Arias who underwent direct and cross-examination under oath today. Ryan Burns is with us. This is, repeat, the former lover of Jodi Arias. He was kept on the witness stand for hours today.

Take a listen to some of what came out under oath.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first episode of sexual interaction that you`d ever had with her?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t -- did you have any sexual interaction in Oklahoma City?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the kissing -- about what time of the day was it?

BURNS: Probably 3:00, 4:00 PM.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she arrived at what time?

BURNS: 10:00 or 11:00 -- 10:00 or 11:00.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So within five hours of arriving, and you`d never seen her before, this interaction is taking place?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said, Well, we talked about cuddling. Do you remember that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does cuddling include her moving you around and getting on top of you and grinding on your pelvis?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that what you mean?

BURNS: We never talked about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But is that what cuddling means?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Asked and answered (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled. He may answer.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is cuddling?

BURNS: I mean, just snuggling up to a movie.


GRACE: This is just hours after Travis Alexander is stabbed to death, stabbed in the heart, his skull nicked with a knife, shot in the face. They had to dig the bullet out of his face. And then she drives hours on end to have a sex encounter, sex contact with a brand-new boyfriend. Whoa!

OK, Ryan Burns, thank you for being with us. You know, how -- you were this close to undergoing this yourself. There is this woman really egging you on. You`re the one that stopped with the sexual activity. You`re the one that stopped and went, Whoa, whoa, let`s just wait a minute.

She had come straight from stabbing Travis Alexander to death. I want to hear the whole thing. How did you people meet?

BURNS: We met a few months prior to that at an Oklahoma convention, at the Cox Convention Center. There was 10,000, maybe 15,000 legal shield (ph) associates that we all work with. I`m from Salt Lake City. Jodi`s from California, was at the time. I didn`t know her. We met at that convention. Obviously, there`s tens -- over 10,000 people there.

But we have very close circles of trainers, the people that got us started. And so we had a breakout session. That`s where maybe about 50 to 100 of us got together at some point. And after that event, I had received, like, a rising star award. And some time after that, Jodi approached me.

We started chatting with each other. I`m not sure if she`s the one that engaged in the conversation or if I was, but the end of it, basically, was that if I ever had anybody out in California that I need assistance with, that she was out there. She`d be willing to help me out. and I said, Great, and likewise, and I asked for her number. And that`s how we met is for those three or four minutes at that Oklahoma convention in April.

GRACE: Everyone, with me is Ryan Burns, joining us exclusively tonight. And he is not afraid of the harsh glare of the lights. He is actually taking your calls, along with me, Ryan just off the witness stand.

Ryan, I now understand how you guys met. What was your impression of Jodi Arias when you first met her?

BURNS: My impression was -- you know, I thought she was a beautiful girl. We didn`t get a lot of time to get to know her there. Like I said, only talked for three or four minutes. But she was a businesswoman at a national convention. She seemed to have the same entrepreneur spirit that I had, and so interested in that light, and so, you know, got her number. And we actually didn`t really start talking until maybe three or four weeks after that.

GRACE: I want to fast-forward to the day she came to your home. She drove many, many hours to get there. And this is all literally about 17 hours or so after she stabbed Travis Alexander, whom you also knew, stabbed him to death.

I know she was very late in getting to you. What was her explanation as to why she was almost 24 hours late getting to your place?

BURNS: Yes, she told me she was leaving -- she lived in northern California. She was going to go visit a friend in southern California that had a baby or something like that. The plan was that she told me a week prior to this, she was planning to come see me. And when the day arrived, you know, she called me from southern California around 9:00 PM on Tuesday. She was supposed to get to my house -- it`s a 12-hour drive from LA to Salt Lake City. She was going to get to my house at 9:00 PM. Obviously, you know, I was concerned about her driving in the middle of the night, so I told her to pull over. She had called me. She wanted me to help her stay awake. And so I maybe really expected her maybe around 12:00 or 1:00 PM.

but I called her at 9:00 the next day, on Wednesday. It went straight to voicemail. I wasn`t too concerned at that point. I figured she might have pulled over just to take a nap. At 12:00, 1:00, when it didn`t still go through, now I was starting to get concerned. And then I even tried maybe two other times after that, even contacted another friend that she had in Salt Lake City...

GRACE: So what was her explanation, Ryan?

BURNS: ... to see if she had heard from her...

GRACE: What did she say?

BURNS: Her reason was -- was -- and I think they did an objection in court. They didn`t want me to speculate on this, but I guess I can talk here. She said she got lost. She got on the wrong freeway and she was kind of air-headed like that. That`s what she said.

And she drove for hours upon hours in the middle of the night until it was dark. She didn`t realize where she was going. At that point, she, you know, was so tired, she fell asleep, and she couldn`t believe how many hours she fell asleep, and then she had tried to get back...

GRACE: Did it sound...

BURNS: ... on the right path to come back.

GRACE: ... truthful to you? Did it sound truthful to you?

BURNS: Not at all. And that`s what the -- that`s what the prosecutor was trying to get me to say is that, you know, I -- while she was telling me this -- you know, and the defense tried to make it sound like we were a couple. I was definitely interested in her, and that`s why we were talking four or five times a week for over a month, you know, but we weren`t together. And so I didn`t really -- I knew that she was somewhere...

GRACE: Are you Mormon, too?

BURNS: ... that she didn`t want to tell me, and I just -- I grew up in the LDS church. At that time, I hadn`t attended an LDS, you know, church for over a year. You know, I turned (ph) Christian (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: So then -- OK, so at that time, you were still a Mormon, although you were not regularly attending. It`s my understanding that at the time, you believed Jodi that Arias was actually pulling you closer to God?

BURNS: I mean, some of the talks were, you know, why I was not attending the LDS church at the time, you know. And she would -- she was, you know, from my perspective, you know, somebody who felt like she wanted to, you know, tell me to read my scriptures more, pray more, you know? And it wasn`t like she was trying to, you know, really push me, but we`d have conversations more like she was trying to, you know, get me back on that right path...

GRACE: Ryan? Ryan? Let -- let...

BURNS: Yes, that`s what that was about.

GRACE: So you`re telling me that Jodi Arias, now on trial for stabbing her lover after a full day of -- it was a sex marathon -- stabbing him 29 times, she`s telling you that you should read the scriptures more.

BURNS: Yes. I mean, that`s -- that conversation (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: I just want to make sure I understood that correctly.

BURNS: ... she went out there.

GRACE: Ryan Burns is joining us and taking your calls. Take a listen to what just occurred on the witness stand.


BURNS: We were talking and we kissed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did this kissing continue, or did it just stop at one kiss?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eventually, we kissed probably many times. Every time we started kissing, it got a little more escalated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And with regard to the physical contact beyond the kissing, was there any of that?

BURNS: Clothes never came off. You know, at some point, she was kissing my neck. I was kissing hers. But clothes never came off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about your hands?

BURNS: Yes, my hands were -- I never touched her breasts or anything like that. At one point, I had my hands on her thighs. She was -- you know, things were -- she was definitely seemed to be into the moment. And you know, eventually, we stopped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before you stopped, did your hands ever go near her vaginal area?




BURNS: I complimented her on being very feisty, and I was kind of referring she`s -- she`s a lot stronger than she looks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During this encounter, when -- after you wake up, did she ever -- and the phrase may have been -- adjust you in any way while this encounter is going on?

BURNS: Well, that`s what I mean. When we woke up, we were kissing. And then she eventually kind of grabbed me and adjusted me a little bit, and that`s when she got on top of me and we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did that -- were you able to feel her strength at that point?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you form an opinion, again, throughout the day and as part of that, as to her strength?

BURNS: Yes, she`s strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At any point, did you ever kiss her stomach?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And were you able to see her stomach in terms of whether or not she was in shape?

BURNS: Yes, close to a six-pack, yes.


GRACE: With me right now, straight off the witness stand, is Ryan Burns, the former lover of Jodi Arias, who has just come off the witness stand, testifying under oath.

Ryan, thank you for being with us. What was it like in court and the last couple of hours sitting there, with her looking at you and taking notes, and you`re talking about this sex encounter you had, knowing now in hindsight it`s just a couple of hours after she stabbed Travis Alexander to death, then she hops up on top of you?

BURNS: Right. I mean, obviously very awkward, extremely awkward. I mean, it`s hard to believe you`re this close to something that`s so dramatic. I just -- I really didn`t think she could have possibly done. And for a month after she was there at my house, she explained that she was never there at Travis`s, and you know, that the truth would eventually came out of who really hurt him. And that was the whole story that she fed everybody until up to the point she was arrested.

GRACE: So Ryan, did you ask her about it? Did you ask her, Were you involved? And if so, what propelled you to do that?

BURNS: You know, we talked quite a few times even after, you know, it came out. But again, we didn`t really know -- she told me -- she called me at 4:00 AM four or five days after she was at my house. I didn`t answer the phone. She called me three or four times.

I actually called her in the morning and asked her if everything`s OK. Normally, she didn`t call me at 4:00 AM in the morning. She said, No. She was in tears, it sounded like. And she said that Travis had died. I said, Travis who? She said, Travis Alexander. And I said, Your ex-boyfriend? I mean, Travis just died? And she confirmed.

And I was shocked, you know, because he was -- you know, he was such a young guy, happy, everybody loved him, motivational speaker, totally turned my business around when I was ready to quit in the beginning. First three months, he was kind of the guy that came into town. And I showed up to that training not even knowing if I was going to do the business anymore three months in. And I laughed, I cried, and he was an incredible speaker. It just seemed like not the type of guy that would commit a suicide or something like that.

I even asked her, Is he suicidal? And she said, No, no, she didn`t think he was. And I said, How did he die so young? And she said, They`re looking at it like a suspicious death. And I said, Like somebody killed him? And she said, yes, that might have been what happened. I don`t know yet. And so, you know, that`s -- that`s how that, you know, all came out.

GRACE: Then she went on to say she didn`t have anything to do with it. When was the last time -- the last time you spoke with her, what was her story that time? Because she`s changed it quite often.

BURNS: The entire time -- in fact, for two or three weeks after Travis had died, I didn`t think she could have possibly done it. People are saying that she, you know, was gone and missing for those 24 hours, and I kind of reminded people that we didn`t know when Travis died. I mean, I didn`t know if he died the night that she called me, the day before she called me.

People were coming to the conclusion that he died four days prior, which happened to fit the story of her being missing. And I thought that was a lot to come to a conclusion because we didn`t have any information. At least, I didn`t know of any information from the detective or anybody else.

And so I didn`t believe she had killed him, yes.

GRACE: Well, when was the last time you actually spoke to her?

BURNS: Probably the night before she was arrested.


GRACE: Straight back to Ryan Burns, Ryan Burns straight off the witness stand. He has been under oath for hours. Ryan was the new boyfriend in Jodi Arias`s life. As a matter of fact, she drives hours and hours to go to him, egging him on sexually. This was within hours after stabbing Travis Alexander to death.

Ryan, again, thank you for being with us. I`m going to open it up to the callers in just a moment. But Ryan, I`m extremely curious if you could tell me -- you spoke to her the night before she was arrested. In that conversation, what did she say?

BURNS: It was never -- most of our -- 90 percent -- 95 percent of our conversations were nothing about Travis. It was more -- she did talk about -- I`m not sure if you got that, that she wanted me to come out and see her. She wanted me to spend a few days out there. She told my expenses would be covered.

GRACE: Was she upset Alexander had another girlfriend?

BURNS: No because my impression was -- obviously, she was upset. But my impression was that they were done. They`d moved on. She -- I mean, the picture she painted -- you got to remember I talked to her April for five, six weeks.


BURNS: The only Jodi I knew was the person I talked to on the phone. And the picture she painted, they were a long history. Apparently, Travis and Jodi hid that pretty well. I mean, even me -- I was shocked that they were still even in contact. I didn`t know that.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Shannon in Pennsylvania. Hi, Shannon. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nice to talk to you. I have a lot of respect for what you do.

GRACE: Likewise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, she seems at her young age and just with her physical appearance and her ability to obviously attract males -- has there been a history ever with her with a breakup that, you know, she stalks the man? Or it seems to me like she just really does not handle the possibility of losing somebody well, when she could very easily find somebody else.

GRACE: Let`s find out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has there been a history of this?

GRACE: Ryan Burns, I assume that the two of you discussed your past love lives. Had she had very many boyfriends? How did she describe breakups, or did she?

BURNS: It`s strange because I know nothing about Jodi`s family. She`d never talk about that, so I don`t know if there was -- but as far as boyfriend, I think she lived with somebody for years, maybe three or four years. She never said anything bad about that. It`s just I`m finding out now she broke up with him later.



BURNS: Yes, it seemed like the reason they broke up was because they didn`t trust each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her going into his cell phone snooping.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was there jealousy?

JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING TRAVIS ALEXANDER: On my end not so much jealousy, maybe a sense of insecurity.

RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, AUTHOR OF "QUIET HERO": Now her story is she killed Travis in self-defense.

ARIAS: He works out really, really hard. He`s so strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis was one of the nicest and kindest men I`ve ever met. He was the type of guy that you just wanted to be around.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man.

BURNS: It`s hard to say no to a woman who sneaks into your house, crawls in your bed and tries to, you know, seduce you. When we woke up we were kissing and then she eventually kind of grabbed me and she got on top of me.

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are straight out of the courtroom. We are live in Arizona.

Straight out to Bonnie Druker who is on our team there watching every word that comes from the witness stand.

Bonnie, what happened in court?

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, obviously, Ryan Burns took the stand today and that was incredibly dramatic. You know yesterday was gore. Today was sex and everyone was listening to every word that he said. We also heard about a palm print and we heard about carpet with blood on it, Nancy. But again, Ryan Burns, he took the stand and everyone was watching incredibly close. He was the man today.

GRACE: Explain to me -- right now we`re showing you the carpet that was ripped up out of Travis Alexander`s home there in his bedroom and bathroom. What`s the significance of that carpet, Bonnie?

DRUKER: Well, the significance is that he bled obviously on the carpet and then he was dragged into the bathroom, and that`s where Jodi Arias left his body so that blood shows on the carpet that he was dragged from that carpet into the shower.

GRACE: And in retrospect as we`re looking back and putting all the pieces together, Bonnie, let`s analyze what Ryan Burns is telling us tonight. Give me the timeline.

DRUKER: Well, the timeline is Jodi Arias admitted that she killed Travis Alexander. Twelve hours later she is with Ryan Burns, kissing him and dry humping him, and getting on top of him. So, you know, we`ve obviously talked about this before as crime victims.

GRACE: You know, joining me right now, Matt Zarrell, also tracking the trail.

Give me the timeline, Matt.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: OK, Nancy. Now what we know is that Jodi Arias showed up to Travis Alexander`s home at about 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. Travis was on YouTube. Apparently they immediately went to sleep, got up around -- later in the day around 1:00 p.m., started having sex.

They took naked photos of each other. Then more naked poses in the shower that you see around 5:30 p.m. Some of the photos were shown to the jury. Some haven`t been yet. And 5:30 is the last photo taken of Travis Alexander alive in the shower. Within 44 seconds of that last photo, that`s when prosecutors say Arias stabbed him in the heart and began killing him.

GRACE: Matt, I want you to back it up and go through it with me with a fine-toothed comb. The murder of Travis Alexander and when we find her within hours climbing on top of Ryan Burns egging him on sexually.

ZARRELL: Yes, it was -- it was less than 24 hours. Now Arias initially planned to arrive at Burns` home on June 4th, which was the day of the murder. He was -- she was supposed to arrive, Arias, around noon or 1:00 p.m., but the day of the murder Burns was trying to reach Jodi Arias all day at 9:00 a.m., noon, 1:00 p.m. The calls all went straight to voicemail. The next day, June 5th, is when Arias does show up and that`s when she gives this story about how she got lost and she fell asleep in the car and she lost her car charger and all of that.

Now one thing that`s interesting, Nancy, is after she arrived, she was actually pulled over by a law enforcement officer within hours of arriving because of an upside-down license plate which she also had a crazy story for.

GRACE: OK, I want to hear the crazy story about why the car tag on the front was missing and the car tag on the back was upside-down.

ZARRELL: Yes, this is actually very interesting. From what Ryan Burns said, Arias actually claimed it was, quote, "a funny story." Arias says the cop pulled her over because her back license plate was upside-down. When Ryan Burns asked how that could have happened, Jodi Arias said she was coming out of a restaurant sometime on her trip to Burns` house and there were these, quote, "kids" goofing off around her car and screwing around with the front license plate and dropped it on the floor when they saw her and left.

Arias claims that she thought that`s all they did so she put the front license plate in the car but Arias said she didn`t realize that they also turned the back license plate upside-down. Why they would do that, I have no idea.

GRACE: Taking your calls, out to Suzanne. Hi, Suzanne, what`s your question?

SUZANNE, CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for calling in.

SUZANNE: Thank you. I`m wondering if anybody has looked at Jodi Arias` history to see if she`s had a problem with her temper because, I mean, this was really out there. About as severe as she could get. And I don`t think this would be a one-time thing.

GRACE: You know, out to Christina Estes, anchor with KTAR, joining me tonight from Phoenix.

Christina, what do we really know about her?

ESTES: Well, we might actually learn a little bit more about her relationships once the defense gets its chance and calls its witnesses because during the opening statements, the defense brought up, hey, this is all with about self-defense and they implied that they were going to bring a domestic violence expert in who was going to talk about that.

Not necessarily about physical abuse but about emotional mental abuse so that may be a factor that we will hear about. We do know that based on some messages between Ryan and Jodi that she does have some trust issues with Travis. And, also, that she had a prior relationship where she said she had been cheated on before.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified, sex crimes prosecutor. Also with me tonight defense attorney Peter Odom from the Atlanta jurisdiction.

Eleanor Odom, weigh in on the whole battered women`s syndrome defense because, as of this hour, this day in court, there is no allegation there was physical abuse before Travis Alexander attacked her and she murdered him.

I find that very hard to believe and also, Eleanor, what kind of attack could it be? Because, let`s just say at 5:30 she is taking sexy shots of him in the shower. At 5:32 he`s dead.

ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: I don`t think this defense is going to go very far, Nancy. Because you know with battered women`s syndrome or battered person`s syndrome that person is claiming they have been so abused physically and also mentally, verbally, by this person that it drove them to an act of violence themselves or that they, you know, have suffered posttraumatic stress disorder from it.

But you know what`s funny, Nancy, is we`ve never seen any scintilla of evidence that she suffered any battered person syndrome whatsoever. So I think this defense is going to fail and fail big. I mean this woman can`t even lie straight.

GRACE: Well, you know, if you analyze this, Peter Odom, the reality is that the -- oh, let me just old traditional self-defense law is going to kick in which is basically sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

Words alone, verbal abuse alone is not going to create a battered women`s syndrome defense.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She has to believe that she was in immediate fear for -- and reasonably believed that she was in immediate fear.

GRACE: Well, that`s all self-defense. That`s all self-defense.

P. ODOM: Exactly. So, I mean, the self-defense claim -- I would agree with Eleanor that the self-defense claim is a hard one and there`s no evidence of it yet. But you know what, she has --

GRACE: Put him up, please.

P. ODOM: She has to go with that. She has to go with that.

GRACE: Yes, she does, Peter. The lawyer is between a rock and a hard spot because first she said, I wasn`t there.

P. ODOM: Right.

GRACE: Then it`s the strange people dressed like ninjas come in and killed the guy --

P. ODOM: She then claimed --

GRACE: -- as she watches.

P. ODOM: Right.

GRACE: Now she says self-defense. I mean, they absolutely cannot now revert to insanity, it just -- it would be laughed out of court.

P. ODOM: Right. So she`s placed at the scene because there`s a palm print so she`s got to have a defense consistent with that palm print so it`s got to be self-defense but it doesn`t take much. Don`t forget, Nancy, she doesn`t have to prove her innocence. The state has to prove her guilt and they`re just starting to plant these seeds.

Now the real question is going to be, does she take the witness stand to sell this defense?

GRACE: Yes, you`re right.

Eleanor, will she take the witness stand?

E. ODOM: I think she`s going to have to, Nancy. And I know as a prosecutor I don`t usually put in defendant`s self-serving statements because I want to force them on the stand so I can have my turn at them under cross-examination.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing I would hear a lot of is by the ladies, am I single? And that`s right. I am. Ladies, come get me.

BURNS: She got on top of me. Pretty aggressively and we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you form an opinion, again, throughout the day and as part of that as to her strength?

BURNS: Yes, she`s strong. Close to six pack, yes.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is the carpet leading from the master bedroom right at the entryway to the hallway that leads to the master bath.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this blood just outside the hallway on the carpet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the piece of carpet. I can see some of the staining on the interior fold.


GRACE: In the last hours, carpet ripped up out of Travis Alexander`s bedroom and bathroom where you can see bloody drag marks as Arias dragged him and positioned his body have come into court. We already know about a cut found where she would fill it up with warm water and basically bathe Travis Alexander`s dead body slumped over in the shower.

Also, in the last hours there on the witness stand we learned about a bloody palm print. It`s Travis Alexander`s blood. It`s her palm print. The evidence is mounting.

I want to go to Leslie Seppinni, clinical psychologist and author.

Leslie, weigh in on your analysis of Jodi Arias.

LESLIE SEPPINNI, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I mean, you know, the fact that she keeps talking shows that true mental illness of a sociopath, that she think that she has gotten away with the perfect crime. But it also shows the statements that Ryan made today were so incredible because it really shows how seductive she is. And that`s part of the pathology. She already had slaughtered one man and she already had another man in the bull pen ready to go to seduce him and using religion to do that. It`s fascinating.

GRACE: And it`s also interesting, back to you, Matt Zarrell, that she had her sights on Travis Alexander. She even converted to Mormonism. He baptized her into Mormonism. But they keep referring to Jodi Arias as his dirty little secret, I guess, because, what, the church thought he was marrying or courting another Mormon woman while he was having sex with Arias? Is that what`s happening?

ZARRELL: Well, the whole idea is what the defense is saying. The defense is the one that`s saying that she`s the dirty little secret. That Alexander would be able to carry on relationships publicly with women that may have been viewed better in the Mormon Church as opposed to Jodi Arias whom he was having a sexual relationship with which was against the church.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, out to Marnita in New Jersey. Hi, Marnita, what`s your question?

MARNITA, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Hi, Nancy. My question is for Mr. Ryan Burns. I was wondering how long he knew her and if she seemed calm or strange when she was around him?

GRACE: Yes, I`m curious, too, Ryan. What`s the answer to that?

BURNS: I knew her for about two months. We talked on the phone for five or six weeks, four or five times a week for -- she would call almost every time at 11:00 p.m. when our days were wrapping up. I was very busy in the business working. She always seemed calm. She had never seemed like there was a problem when she was with me.

When the timeframe came out to think that she called me and I talked to her for maybe an hour, 30 minutes to an hour, when I was at the Cheesecake Factory, which was only three or four hours after he was killed is what I`m hearing now. And so for that whole hour we talked about simple things, giggling about just little jokes, just normal conversation, you would think. Obviously they`re abnormal when you -- in retrospect.

But she was always seemed just like the Jodi that I had been talking to for five or six weeks, the entire 14-hour she was with me the day after Travis died.

GRACE: OK. Ryan Burns, this is so incredible to all of us listening and, listen, I claimed to have seen it all having prosecuted felonies for, you know, a decade. But hearing you talk about this is just riveting to me that she is giggling like a schoolgirl and having a regular conversation with you -- you know, right after stabbing him to death.

I`m hearing in my ear, I`m getting Beth Karas with me. Beth has been in the courtroom all day long.

Beth, debrief me. What happened?

BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Good evening, Nancy. Oh, wow, the jury heard so many recordings of Jodi Arias. Detective Flores back on the stand, and he`s talking about a second conversation with her on June 25th, 2008, where he`s asking her very pointed questions about her relationship with Travis, the last time she saw him and about her trip from northern California to Utah.

Well, she admits that she went to pasadena to see friends, which the police were able to track and corroborate. But she said she then drove nine hours straight to Utah to see Ryan Burns. Well, we know that`s not true, obviously, she detoured to Mesa, Arizona, for a day. So no mention about whatsoever. She talked about her relationship with him and the breakup and how they continued to see each other but they didn`t really trust each other, and she knew he was going to Cancun on June 10th.

Key facts, Detective Flores got out from her like she knew he wasn`t going to Cancun and the state will probably argue, she intended for him ever to make it that trip to Cancun. She said she was fearful of guns and that she was fearful of being in public, that she was shaking when she had to sing the national anthem one time.

And I`m thinking to myself, boy, she didn`t seem fearful when she was singing in that "American Idol" contest in jail. But she said that she did fear guns.

GRACE: So wait, so she`s afraid of guns and she`s afraid to sing in public?

KARAS: Those are two things she said on her list of fears she needed to overcome. She had a list and Travis was helping her work on that list. Of course she is distancing herself from a gun, right, the weapon in the case which ultimately she admits to using but at that time she is saying -- she -- she didn`t know --

GRACE: OK. Beth Karas --

KARAS: -- what they had on her and said she was afraid of guns.

Beth Karas, don`t move a hair.

Everybody, Beth is joining us straight out of the courthouse. She is taking your calls. She has just told us that Jodi Arias tells the cops she is mortally afraid of guns and singing. Take a listen to this.




BURNS: Maybe I did ask her. And yes, I found out that they -- that they had had sex together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that include like a sexual relationship with him?

ARIAS: Yes, it does.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This relationship was about sex.

ARIAS: It eventually became sex.


GRACE: That is Jodi Arias on CBS "48 Hours."

We are taking your calls. Back to you, Beth Karas. Go ahead. I want to - - I don`t want to miss a thing. What happened?

KARAS: Well, there were more of these little recordings from June 25th, 2008. This is before her arrest but it`s about two weeks after Travis was found dead in the shower. She said that at the time, after they broke up she continued to see him. She admitted it was a sexual relationship. But she said Travis used to text her late at night and say hey, I`m getting sleepy, and it became kind of the code word for her to sneak over there.

She said it was a sexual relationship but she just needed to move away, so she moved away, but they still continued to see each other. She said he was actually going to come to northern California to see her. I think she said it was after the Cancun trip. We don`t know if that`s true.

GRACE: Right.

KARAS: Obviously, she was never going to let him go to Cancun.

GRACE: With me right now, Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist.

Dr. Morrone, you have studied the injuries to the body. What do you make of it?

DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: There`s no way any of this was defensive. A textbook of medical legal studies say there are three fatal stab wounds above the waist -- the neck, the heart, and under the chin. She got two out of three. And you don`t do that in defense. And the veracity with which the number of wounds are directly to the body, that doesn`t happen in defense. This was planned and it was extensive. He has no wounds on his knuckles. He wasn`t attacking anybody. It`s terrible.

With me right now, Marc Harrold, former officer, attorney, and author.

Marc, what is your takeaway from Arias` testimony? What Ryan is saying about Arias on the stand.

MARC HARROLD, FORMER OFFICER, ATLANTA PD, ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "OBSERVATIONS OF WHITE NOISE": Yes, I think the self-defense isn`t going to really work here. They want to paint her out as being the aggressor. They want to paint her out as somebody who`s physically strong. And I think he did that. Also they`re going to have to show that she could drag the body. I think he was a very dramatic witness. He didn`t have any ax to grind it didn`t seem. He`s very truthful.

Self-defense works a lot better as a first defense, an affirmative defense. But as your third or fourth story it`s going to be rarely successful.

GRACE: Amanda, Louisiana. Hi, dear. What`s your question?

AMANDA, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: I`d like to ask Mr. Burns if she started exhibiting that obsessive behavior like she did with Travis Alexander and her identity being tied up like she did with Travis Alexander.

GRACE: Ryan, she was making very long drives, you know, the long drive to see you. And I take it that she was calling you every night at 11:00?
BURNS: No. We called each other. I mean, a lot of times it was her. Sometimes it was me. You know, when she came out to see me, we had talked about it a few times. But you know, she never really seemed anything that we`re seeing today.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom joining me. Also Peter Odom out of Atlanta.

OK, Peter, where do they go now?

P. ODOM: Where does the trial go now? Well, I hope --

GRACE: The defense.

P. ODOM: The defense has laid out a story. They`re going to have a very difficult time unless they have evidence of that story. I think that there`s going to be a lot of pressure for Jodi Arias to testify.

GRACE: Eleanor, will she take the stand?

E. ODOM: I think she`s going to have to, Nancy, and I think she`s going to try to paint herself as this innocent victim to the jury. And I hope the jury doesn`t buy it. We`ve got to keep focused on the fact, on those 29 stab wounds, the shooting and the dragging of the body to the bathroom.

GRACE: Beth Karas, will she take the stand?

KARAS: She has said publicly in interviews to the media that she will testify. Her lawyers didn`t say that. And these are different lawyers from a couple years ago when she made the public statement, "I will testify." So we`ll see. I mean, she probably wants to. In self-defense cases you usually see the defendant taking the stand.


  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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Mistrial motion denied in Arizona murder trial
January 10, 2013

PHOENIX (AP) — A judge has denied a mistrial motion in the trial of an Arizona woman accused in the shooting and stabbing death of her boyfriend.

Jodi Arias' defense lawyers asked for the mistrial Thursday after accusing a prosecution witness of perjury.

The motion was denied and the trial is scheduled to resume Monday.

  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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