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Author Topic: Travis Alexander of Mesa, AZ Found Murdered June 2008-Jodi Arias on Trial  (Read 1429763 times)
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« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2013, 03:56:57 PM »
Jodi Arias trial: 'I would not hurt Travis,' she is heard saying in latest evidence that shows her lying, hurting her credibility
The 32-year-old initially told investigators that she wasn't at the home of her ex-beau, Travis Alexander, when he was killed in June 2008. In evidence played for jurors Monday, Arias is adamant that she wasn't there and would never hurt Alexander. But she has since confessed to killing him, claiming it was in self-defense.

January 15, 2013

  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2013, 04:05:48 PM »

More Police Interrogation Tapes Played in Jodi Arias Trial

Aired January 16, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Brand-new police interrogation tapes revealed in court in the Jodi Arias murder trial. Will listening to Jodi`s litany of lies sway the jury? They had some astounding questions they asked today. We`re going to analyze them.

And I`m going to talk to a close friend of Travis Alexander`s who spent a lot of time with Jodi at the memorial for Travis and actually drove her to a police interview. What he has to say about Jodi`s behavior will curl your hair.


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, jurors see more diabolical behavior from defendant Jodi Arias, as cops grill her on camera. After denying she killed Travis, she then claims two ninjas slaughtered Travis as she watched.

But as she tells that ridiculous story to a skeptical detective, is she weaving in the real details of how she actually shot and stabbed Travis?

Jurors ask a slew of questions. What`s this jury thinking now about Jodi`s self-defense claims?

And we`ll talk to a man who spent a lot of time with Jodi after she killed Travis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis is telling me that you did this to him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine-one-one emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: So I`m as good as done.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.

ARIAS: Pigtails?


ARIAS: If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When people lie, there`s an effort to throw a little truth in there to make the lie more believable.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, Jodi Arias comes face to face with more of her lies inside an Arizona courtroom. Will a jury convict Jodi of murder after watching these chilling, astounding police interview tapes, or will they still believe her claim of self-defense?

Good evening. Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live with the very latest.

The stunning 32-year-old photographer admits she stabbed her ex- boyfriend 29 times, slitting Travis Alexander`s throat ear to ear, shooting him in the face.

In the interrogation room, Jodi denies killing Travis, but she says, well, if she did kill him, she would have done it in a nicer way. Listen to this.


ARIAS: I would never stab him. If -- if I had it in me anywhere to kill him, the least I could have done was make it as humane as possible. Quick or something. You know?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, of course now, we know Jodi has admitted she did, in fact, kill Travis, claiming self-defense. But do these autopsy photos look like a humane way to kill someone, slicing and dicing them?

And when she was finally forced to admit, "Yes, I was at Travis`s house," in front of overwhelming evidence, Jodi then also is forced to admit, "Yes, I did have a kinky sexual rendezvous, including triple-X photos that we took, after having sex." Jodi and Travis took photos like this one of Jodi laying naked on a bed wearing pigtails in a possible role- playing sexual game. And this one of Travis lounging around naked on the bed after sex.

Jodi told cops that they had sex all afternoon. And then two ninjas with facemasks slaughtered Travis and barely let her escape with her life. Well, investigators obviously did not buy that absurd story. And they pushed Jodi to come clean, tell them the truth, and give them the motive for why she killed Travis Alexander. Listen to this.


ARIAS: What`s my motive?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jealousy? Anger? Fear? Fear of being alone? Angry at him for not keeping you in his life? I don`t know. That`s why I`m trying to figure it out. There are so many motives with you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think about these interrogation tapes and her demeanor? Call me, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

In a little while, couple of minutes, we`re going to talk to somebody who spent a lot of time with Jodi. First, straight out to "Inside Edition" correspondent Beth Karas.

You were in court today. We were waiting for Travis`s other girlfriend to take the stand, and the prosecution in a late afternoon switcheroo said, "Oh, we better not." Tell us about it.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Yes, Juan Martinez says, "We better not," because he said, "We never called Jodi Arias a stalker. The defense called her a stalker, and we`re calling Lisa Andrews" -- she`s married now. She has a different last name -- "and she`s going to say things that now I`m afraid, if there`s a conviction, an appellate court will say, `Oh, that was so inflammatory,` and throw the case out and send it back for a new trial."

It`s because Lisa Andrews was dating Travis Alexander at least at some point at the same time Jodi Arias was. So they`re overlapping. And when Travis was out with her once at her house, Lisa`s house, there`s a knock at the door. They go to the door. They open it. And Travis`s tires were slashed. Nobody`s there, but the tires are slashed. And it happened again, I think the next night.

And then Lisa Andrews`s tires were slashed, and she asked Travis to stay overnight because she was afraid. She said they didn`t have sex. She just wanted protection.

Three different sets of tires slashed three different nights, and then she got a nasty e-mail, purportedly from Jodi Arias.

So Juan Martinez said, "That may be so inflammatory to the jury."

and the defense said, "You know what? We`re going to call her."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this. And I want to bring in our attorneys. We`ve got Jordan Rose. We`ve got Aaron Dewey. We`ve got Nishay Sanan.

Jordan, why doesn`t the prosecution figure this out a long time ago? I mean, they suddenly -- well, you know, maybe not. I mean, we all know about prejudicial evidence, that it could be used to appeal if you`re convicted. Why build up all this anticipation for the girlfriend and then say, "Eh, never mind"?

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: You just -- you don`t know what`s going on in the mind of the prosecutor, but they may be looking at the jury, reading the situation, and understanding that, you know, maybe we can get there without this testimony that may actually allow the defense some sort of appeal basis if she is convicted. If it`s extremely prejudicial, it could be a negative for the prosecution, and I have to believe that`s what the prosecutor has determined.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course, if it happened, if in fact she did run around slashing everybody`s tires, what better evidence could there be? But the jurors don`t hear that.

And that`s why I say never predict what a jury is going to do, because they don`t hear everything we`re hearing. The jurors have this very narrow, narrow information that they`re allowed to hear, and they`ve been paying very close attention.

And guess what? I thought this was the most shocking thing today. They had a lot of questions for the investigator. You`re allowed to do that in Arizona. The jury is allowed to ask questions.

Listen carefully to the questions they asked, because I think it doesn`t portend well for the prosecution. It`s not an open-and-dunk -- open-and-shut case. It`s not a slam dunk. Listen to these juror questions.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The jurors have some questions for you. Were there any sets of knives that appeared to be missing a knife? What were the alibis given by those roommates? Was the gun that was used to kill Mr. Alexander found in Ms. Arias` possession?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Roommate alibis. Have they forgotten that Jodi has admitted she`s the one who inflicted these awful wounds to her boyfriend?

Nishay Sanan, criminal defense attorney, when I heard this, I thought Casey Anthony all over again. The whole world is screaming how guilty she is. And they`re asking, "Well, where were the roommates? Do they have an alibi?"

NISHAY SANAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think one of the biggest problems is one of the reasons the prosecutor decided not to call this witness, is this jury is paying close attention to what`s going on, and I think the prosecution is concerned that this ex-girlfriend or girlfriend at the same time that Jodi was dating Travis Alexander would say something to even make it worse for the prosecution.

I think the defense is setting up their arguments. And I think they`re doing a great job, and the jury is sitting there listening.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub, I was shocked when the jurors asked oh, what about the roommates? Do they have an alibi? Who cares? She`s admitted she sliced and diced him.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well -- well, maybe the jury is thinking what I`m thinking. I don`t think her word is too good today. And I mean, you can`t take Jodi Arias`s word for anything, only because now you want to?

I mean, first she gave one story. They don`t get there until a month later to arrest her. Then she gives another story about the ninja robbers that are there. Then she finally comes up with self-defense, which also has no corroboration for.

I mean, this girl maybe is going to say that she was bullied into that. Maybe she`s going to say that the interrogators -- that she felt she had to say it. You know, you never know what she`s going to say next. So you can`t rely on her word.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She did say -- she never said that "I killed him in self-defense." This was something that came up two years later in paperwork, when -- when they had time to study all the evidence and they realized, "Oh, we can`t say we weren`t there. Well, we can`t do this silly ninja story. Well, let`s go with self-defense."

WEINTRAUB: Well, that`s what...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You talked about lies. During interrogation, cops confront Jodi about the naked photos taken right before Travis was killed, even pointing out her pigtails. Listen to this woman talk.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.

ARIAS: Pigtails?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I`ve got pictures of you that I`ve blown up, and you`ve got the little mole right there. It`s the same one. It`s you; it`s obvious.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Pigtails? Me? Me?" Yes. This photograph right there of you in pigtails.

Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect." You`re writing a book on this case. I thought that those juror questions prove what I always say, there is no way to predict what`s going on in the mind of a jury. And I wouldn`t be surprised. Jayne Weintraub could be right. She could come up with a totally different story if she takes the stand.

SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST/AUTHOR: Well, it sure did make me nervous, too, when I heard those jury questions. I mean, why would it matter if the roommates had an alibi or not? I totally agree with you, Jane.

You know, I think that it might just be a product of the jury being curious. I know a lot of people have asked the question, why -- how could roommates live in the house and not smell or not notice that their roommate was gone for five days? It might have just been some sort of jury curiosity.

I cannot think that the jury in Arizona will not convict her. I mean, it`s so clear; the prosecution`s case has been so strong. I would have a really hard time thinking that they`re thinking anything other than first or maybe second-degree murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I would agree with you, except that I sat through so many cases: O.J. Simpson case; the Robert Blake case, where he was accused of murdering his wife, Bonnie Bakely; the Michael Jackson molestation case; the Casey Anthony case. All open-and-shut slam-dunk cases. And in each case, the defendant walked.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Dee, Florida, your question or thought. Dee, Florida.

CALLER: Yes, hi.


CALLER: I have two quick questions. One, will she get offered any bail? And two, it`s been said that she`s so persuasive with men, then why would the state allow so many men to be on the jury and take that chance?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question! Beth Karas...

CALLER: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... wow, what a great question.

KARAS: Yes. Her bail is so high, Jane, that she`s never been able to make it. But if she were to make it, there were conditions that she had to fall in. She was going to be on home confinement with an ankle bracelet, a GPS device, something like that, but she was never able to. A couple million dollars, I think. I don`t know the family was going to be...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about the men aspect?

KARAS: ... able to make that. You know what? There are a lot of men on the jury, and maybe that`s what the defense wanted. We don`t know what the final jury makeup will be. Eleven men, seven women. Six will get bounced just before deliberations.

But there`s no question that she`s very seductive, and men respond to her. And you only need one man to hang them up and maybe get a lesser charge for her or even a retrial, a do-over.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. Remember, people, 90 percent of communication is nonverbal.

In just minutes, we`re going to talk to a close friend of Travis Alexander`s. He spent time with Jodi, an hour and a half, on the very night of Travis`s memorial. What he has to say about what this woman was talking and thinking will blow your mind.


ARIAS: I was not at Travis`s house. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man. She knocked the blessings out of him by putting a bullet in his head.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: When Jodi changed her story the second time and told police, "Oh, you know, I was there, but I didn`t do it. Two ninjas burst into the house and killed Travis." Then she describes how they killed him. Was she actually describing what she did to Travis and kind of -- you know, they say every liar puts in the truth.

Listen to her lies and see if you can recognize maybe what she did to Travis and is pretending that it`s the ninjas.


ARIAS: I ran. And he stopped me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stopped you?

ARIAS: And Travis, he was -- he was still conscious and still alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just left him there?

ARIAS: No, I ran into the closet, because there`s two doors and there was a hallway. And he stopped me and he didn`t touch me. He just held the gun to my head, and he was like, "You don`t go anywhere." And he told the other girl, "Finish it."

He was still, like, able to move. He was all -- I guess he was all conscious up here sort of. He wasn`t, like on his leg or on his knees or on his feet. He wasn`t walking.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Cheryl Arutt, forensic psychologist, you watch this. She`s talking about the ninja -- but he didn`t die right away. And he`s kind of like wobbling around. He can`t really walk. Is she talking about what she did to him?

CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s very possible that she is weaving elements of what she did. We can`t say for sure. But it is pretty obvious that this woman will apparently say just about anything if she thinks it`s going to be expedient.

And some of the things that are the most psychopathic looking to me about Jodi Arias is the complete and utter absence of shame and guilt, unflappability when she`s caught in things and caught in lies.

If someone is primarily narcissistic, they are very vulnerable to shame. This is not the case in this situation. She can be caught red- handed with something and is completely cool as a cucumber and unflappable and generates another story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, not even unflappable. Look at this stretch. Of all the images in this trial, this stretching during the interrogation to me says everything.

People, I don`t want to be -- too much information, but people often pee on themselves during interrogations. They shake. They cry. They throw up. They`re nauseous. They`re terrified. And this woman is doing yoga stretches. That -- I mean, of all the things. I just want to get your analysis, Cheryl, on this yoga stretch.

ARUTT: She`s performing. She is -- she may even be thinking, "Oh, that went pretty well. I was -- I was -- really gave it to them there," but the stretching and the -- it`s like for round two.

This is what I mean by the unflappability. When people do pee on themselves and throw up and all of that, that`s because their conscience is going, "Oh, my God. They`re going to know it`s me. I`m in trouble."

And this is, "Oh, I`m just -- I`m preparing for the next round." I mean, it really is as if they weren`t talking about her at all. There is a total disconnect between her conscience and what she`s doing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And at one time, the detective says, you know, you want to see? We`ve got photos of you, we -- do you want to see them? "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I`d love to see those."

She`s very interested in seeing herself.

More on the other side and your calls.



ARIAS: If I`m found guilty, I have an alibi. I`m not guilty. I didn`t hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You could hear Jodi`s continued obsession with Travis and his entire family. She has the nerve to ask Detective Flores, who`s grilling her, begging her to come clean -- "Oh, I want to send a letter to Travis`s family." Listen to this.


ARIAS: I`d still like to say something to his family. I don`t think I have anything that could bring them (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Maybe I could write them a letter. Would they receive it?


ARIAS: I don`t mean would they accept it. I mean, if I made it to them, would they get it?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: She wants to contact Travis`s family, and she`s the one who killed their loved one.

Selin Darkalstanian, senior producer for our show, they are in courtroom, the family of Travis Alexander is there. I can just imagine their heads rolling eyes back in their heads as they heard that.

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: They were stone cold, staring at her as that part was shown in court. I don`t think they knew that that was coming up. I don`t think they`ve ever heard that, because you have to remember, it`s their first time hearing these interrogation tapes and hearing Jodi make up these lies and make up these excuses, and say that I want to reach out to the family, and I`m just thinking about how his brothers and sisters would be feeling.

And here we are in court. His brother, his two sisters, his aunt, they`re all sitting in the front row, staring right at her, and the jury can see them. So it`s unbelievable that she mentions the family even in the interrogation tapes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and I really feel it`s part of her obsession. These stalkers, well, if you can`t stalk the person because, well, you killed that person, then let`s start sending letters and stalking the family. Even from behind bars. It`s unbelievable.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Pam, Ohio. Your question or thought. Pam, Ohio.

CALLER: Yes, I`d like to know is it possible that she has a split personality? And also, what happened to the bloody pants that they keep showing in the video of her with the blue and the white stripe?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, let`s go to Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect." You heard both of those questions?

HOGAN: Well, as for the pants, she has admitted that she has a striped pant like that. And they have not been able to find it. She said she had two pairs of pants like that, and they have not been able to find that.

And then, what`s the first question again?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Split personality. Could she have a split personality? You`re not a doctor, but you`ve studied her.

HOGAN: She has -- no, she has not been diagnosed with any sort of mental disorders. I`ve heard more of a narcissistic personality, a histrionic personality disorder. She hasn`t really been the type that switches on from one to the other.

But I found her to be almost like a mirror personality, where she mirrors the person that she spends the most time with. She definitely has something going on, but it hasn`t been diagnosed as anything with multiple personalities.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Absolutely. I said -- actually, it was Dr. Robi Ludwig who said borderline personality disorder, and I agree.

Basically those are people who they see somebody who has stuff that they want, and they want that person and they want their stuff and they want their lives. And they insert themselves in their lives.

And they`re very good at it. And they can be very persuasive and very seductive. And then, once they get themselves in there, you can`t get them out. And if you try to get them out, they turn into your enemy. That`s why it`s important for us to take a good hard look at this case because there are other examples in our lives that are not this extreme, that luckily don`t end in death, but these dynamics are at play in our daily lives.

We`re just getting started. We have more on the other side, specifically somebody who spent hours talking to Jodi and even driving her to the police station. You don`t want to miss our next guest. He drove Jodi Arias to her first interrogation with cops.

And then at 8, Nancy Grace talks to a close friend of Travis Alexander who knew Jodi. Nancy at the top hour.

And stay tuned, we`ve got more right on the other side, an exclusive guest.




JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I was not at Travis`s house. If I`m found guilty -- I have an alibi. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

If Travis were here today, he would tell you that it wasn`t me. My cat scratches me. These are all her work. She is a feral cat.

If I was going to ever kill somebody, I would use gloves. I have plenty of them.

The 10 commandments, thou shalt not kill. (inaudible) Maybe there`s something that`s wrong with me psychologically. I think of the butterfly effect.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Tonight, oh, my God, more sex and lies on video at the Jodi Arias murder trial. She is forced to watch more of her interrogation tape where she lies through her teeth. Police confront her with indisputable evidence, including blood and DNA, along with naked photos taken right before Jodi`s ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander is killed by her.

Check this out.


ESTEBAN FLORES, POLICE DETECTIVE: This is absolutely some of the best evidence I`ve ever had in a case. And I`ve convicted a few people on less than this.
ARIAS: Well, so I`m as good as done?

FLORES: That`s not for me to say. But eventually those photos will come out.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, she cries and cries and cries, but she does not ever admit the truth, as hard as Detective Flores, who does an incredible job, tries to get her to come clean. Jean Casarez, correspondent, "In Session", you`ve been at the courthouse monitoring this case. We heard some bombshell evidence from the rental car guy about what she did with her rental car.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s right. This is someone that was in Reading, California. In opening statements, we heard she drove two hours to this rental car agency, had never been there before. He testified that she said it was going to be a local drive. She wasn`t driving too many miles at all. We now know that`s a lie. She had pre- planned this trip, at least to go to Salt Lake City, Utah.

And then she said that she didn`t want a bright car. He wanted to give her a red car. She said no, I don`t want a bright car. I want a softer colored car. And he said that when she brought the car back, number one, all the floor mats were gone from the car, and number two, there was a stain in the front passenger seat and in the back center seat. He thought it was Kool-Aid maybe, but he cleaned it all up and then re-rented the car.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this. We showed you a map. She didn`t actually drive from Los Angeles to New York, but that`s the distance she drove. In other words, the crazy road trip that she went on where she killed Travis Alexander and then left Arizona, went up to Utah to canoodle with his work colleague, she drove the equivalent of driving from California to New York -- this is unbelievable -- 2,834 miles. The rent-a- car guy was like I thought you were going to stay in town, is what you told me.

All right. Today we saw and heard Detective Flores try his darnedest to get Jodi Arias to admit she killed Travis Alexander. But what he got was tears and lies and backstretches but basically more lies.


FLORES: I gave you an opportunity. This was the only opportunity. Ok. And you just gave me the information that you were there. But I knew you were there. Then you throw some story in that`s not plausible. It just doesn`t make any sense with the evidence that was there at the house. That evidence tells a story. And nowhere in that evidence does that story that you told me match. It doesn`t match. Is that how you want to leave it?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you`re looking at her in July of 2008 after she`s already wearing jailhouse orange. She`s been arrested. But I want to bring in my very special guest, Aaron Dewey, Travis Alexander`s former roommate who spent a lot of time with Jodi and Travis. And even a month before that tape you just saw, in June of 2008, drove Jodi to Phoenix, so police could fingerprint her -- Detective Flores, the same guy who was grilling her.

Thank you for joining us, Aaron. We are astounded at the marathon of lies we are hearing. It`s extraordinary to me -- so you`re driving her to get fingerprinted, and she`s sitting right next to you. Is she a cool cucumber, doing backstretches like she was doing during the interrogation? What was her behavior?

AARON DEWEY, FORMER ROOMMATE OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Her behavior was completely normal. There was no signs of emotions from her. There was no conversation that was too far out of the ordinary, considering that here I am driving her to the police station to be investigated, or interrogated for a case where she`s the prime suspect. It was as if nothing out of the ordinary was going on for her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you actually spent time with her at Travis`s memorial. A lot of people are shocked that she even showed up given the fact that she now admits yes, I sliced him and I killed him in a horrific fashion, claiming self-defense. But you`re there and she ends up talking to you, and wants to have a whole big heart to heart with you.

And you`re a nice guy, you oblige, and you listen to her. At this point, nobody knew that she was going to be arrested or anything. And what was her concern? And the night of Travis`s memorial, what was she most interested in?

DEWEY: She had told me -- admitted that she and Travis had a sexual relationship, and as we know, they kept that pretty quiet from everybody. And she was concerned that that was going to be discovered somehow through the course of the investigation. And she was concerned that she would be excommunicated from the church when they found out that she had been having premarital sex. This was all about her.

And so she actually asked me to arrange a meeting with Travis`s bishop so that she could go and confess her sins. Not the sin of taking somebody`s life, but the sin of taking somebody`s virginity. It`s ridiculous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney, just when you think you`ve heard everything in this case you hear something like this. This is the night of Travis`s memorial. She secretly knows she`s the one who did it. Nobody else knows that at this point, although people may have had their suspicions. And she`s not concerned about well -- she`s concerned about getting excommunicated from the Mormon Church?

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She is totally disconnected from what she has done. She is in another body and another space. That`s my take on it. She is now facing the investigators. She wants a bishop. I don`t care what she says she wants him for. Maybe she did want to confess, Jane. I don`t know.

But I think that nobody -- nobody does a self-defense move, stab somebody 27 or 29 times. It`s self-defense, you stab somebody once, or even twice, or a gunshot once.


WEINTRAUB: Do you know how long that took? This woman is not in her right mind or she was on drugs or crazy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s interesting. I don`t know if a drug test was ever done on her because the drugs could have passed by the time that they were talking to her, a long time after.

WEINTRAUB: Months later.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nishay, you heard Jayne Weintraub say no way this is self-defense.

NISHAY SANAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I disagree. I think that the defense is putting on their self-defense. I think it will continue when they start to put their case on. It goes back to just because there`s 27 stab wounds and a gunshot doesn`t mean it`s self-defense.

Self-defense, she stopped the perpetrator then we don`t know what happened in her mind. In her mind, she could have felt like she was still being attacked. The evidence has already shown before that he didn`t go down that fast. So I don`t think you can just look at the number of stab wounds, the gunshot or the slice to the throat. I think you have to look at the big picture.

I think the prosecution is concerned that evidence is going to start coming out to show that this was self-defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. We`re going to continue this debate on the other side and take your calls.


ARIAS: The evidence is very compelling, but none of it proves that I committed a murder.

MARIE HALL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: He had dated someone earlier that year. She had slashed her tires. She had followed us on the first date that we went on. She had broken into his e-mail accounts, his bank accounts. She would sneak into his house through the doggie door.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`ve got to say that this is one of the most extraordinary days in an extraordinary case, and this is -- I think captures it all. Look at her doing her stretches when she`s being interrogated. How do you react like that? What`s going through her mind? Yoga?



FLORES: We used a chemical to enhance this. That right there is blood. A mixture of yours and his and that`s your palm print of your left palm.

ARIAS: I don`t have any cuts on my left palm.

FLORES: You left palm print at the scene in blood. What`s going on there?

ARIAS: Well, I can explain the blood and the hair. I don`t know about my left palm print. Can you take a hair sample?

FLORES: We have your DNA.

ARIAS: No, no, no. But I mean -- you know how they can do drug tests and find out when things were done? Can`t you measure the time?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s extraordinary is how she navigates this interrogation as she`s confronted with hard evidence that she was there. And she just massages it.

And Aaron Dewey, our wonderful guest tonight, Travis Alexander`s former roommate who was a gentleman, and therefore was courteous to Jodi in the wake of his dear friend`s death, not knowing at the time that she was responsible. You have said that she kept her whole life a secret. In other words, when you were hanging out with Jodi and Travis, she would never talk about herself. She would never talk about her past. Tell us about that.

DEWEY: The only thing that I ever knew about Jodi`s past was I had heard Jodi and Travis talk very briefly about the boyfriend that we know she had for four years before she met Travis and broke up with shortly after they met. Other than that, nobody knew anything about her childhood, about her family. She didn`t talk about her parents or her grandparents that she went home to live with after she left Arizona. Her entire past was a complete secret to everybody.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Cheryl Arutt, forensic psychologist, why do you think she did that?

CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that she would have revealed too much of herself if she had disclosed too much about her life. And this unflappability that we keep coming back to, this sort of interrogation -- yoga pose during the interrogation, this being confronted with things that are hard facts about the evidence that was left, and wanting to find out oh, can you time stamp that. She`s still looking for an avenue or a way to make the story morph.

I think one of the difficulties that we have when we deal with people who are pathological liars is that most people expect that in the social contract that other people are going to behave the way they would behave. So if they couldn`t imagine looking someone in the eye and making something up completely, or doing something that is outside of their code, it`s very easy to want to believe someone else who says oh no, I didn`t do that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here`s the thing about pathological liars. First of all, they use huge chunks of the truth. And they take all the truth that they can and they put in some big lies. So when you try to catch them, you say no, look at that truth. Look at that truth, look at that truth even though they`ve got these two chunks of lies or three chunks of lies. So they`re very clever.

And one of the reasons they`re able to do that is the truth is a dead issue to them. The truth means nothing. It has no value, no meaning. And the truth for them is anything, anything that comes into their mind that works for them. The truth is whatever works for them.

That`s why I say you can learn a lot about life watching this case. Because we`ve all dealt with pathological liars in our lives and they are very tricky and they are very dangerous. They`re slippery. You can`t catch them. They always have an answer. You know what I`m talking about. We`ve all dealt with them.

Quickly, Susan, Illinois -- your question or thought. Susan.

SUSAN, ILLINOIS (via telephone): Hi, Jane. First of all, I just want to say that Travis does not look at all like he is having fun in these photos. And could this be a last-ditch effort on her part to keep him, or did he just finally say he was done and wanted to end it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I find that to be a very good question. And we will answer it with our experts on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Items that were deleted, were there some that involved Mr. Alexander in the shower?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were there also some nudes that appeared people were involved in some sort of sexual activity?




VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi Alexander claimed that she -- Jodi Arias, my apologies -- claimed that she and Travis were going through this book, "1,000 Places to See before You Die". On the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about the significance to the case.



JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man. She knocked the blessings out of him by putting a bullet in his head.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A lot has been made of Cancun and the fact that Travis Alexander was set to leave for Cancun on a vacation he`d won not with Jodi. He did not want to take Jodi. He wanted to take another woman.

Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect" What`s the significance of -- and we`re looking at video of gorgeous Cancun -- the Cancun trip?

SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST/AUTHOR, "PICTURE PERFECT": This is a really interesting dynamic of the whole relationship. So Travis gets hold of this book, "1,000 Places to See before You Die". And he and Jodi start checking off these places one by one. They go to Sedona, the Grand Canyon. They go to Niagara Falls and they take all these really elaborate weekend trips to cross off these places.

One of those places on that list of "1,000 Places to See before You Die" is Cancun, the Mayan ruins. And Travis had planned to go on an LDS tour of those Mayan ruins when he was in Cancun. Only this time he was not taking Jodi on one of their weekend trips. He was going to take another woman. So that might have to play into her motive for doing this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Watch as Jodi changes her story from "I wasn`t there, I didn`t kill Travis" to, "Yes, I was there but two ninjas did it."


FLORES: Were they going after Travis? For what reason? You tell me this but you give me no reason.

ARIAS: They didn`t discuss much. They just argued.

FLORES: About what?

ARIAS: About whether or not to kill me.

FLORES: For what reason?

ARIAS: Because I`m a witness.

FLORES: A witness of what?

ARIAS: Of him, of Travis.

FLORES: Of Travis` murder?

ARIAS: Yes, but I didn`t really witness it or see much.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course that`s all nonsense. Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney, why is it so important for this detective to get a confession?

WEINTRAUB: That`s what all detectives do, Jane. They will do anything to get a confession. That`s part of the problem, also. The witness interrogation goes -- it`s almost as if she`s not -- he`s not playing good guy/bad guy. He`s just trying to play good guy and go along with it and he`s making it up as he goes which is ok under the law. He`s desperate to get her to confess. All cops are desperate for a confession.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what I wonder is where is the lawyer? There`s usually at a certain point a lawyer intervenes and says you can`t talk -- my client is not going to talk anymore. And that`s something we can discuss on the other side is that this is a little bit unusual.

I think Detective Flores did an excellent job trying to get the truth out of her but good luck with this person. More on the other side.


ARIAS: I would be shaking in my boots right now if I had to answer to God for such a heinous crime. But I`m very grateful that this is something I will never have to answer to when I stand or sit -- when I`m before the judgment seat some day.




FLORES: The camera actually took a couple of photos by accident during the time he was being killed.

ARIAS: Really?

FLORES: Yes, Jodi, really. You were there. Quit playing this game. It`s time for you to just come out and tell me.

ARIAS: I did not -- I did not hurt Travis.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, you did by your own admission. Let`s go out to the phone lines, Marcia, Illinois. Your question or thought, Marcia? Hey, Marcia?

MARCIA, ILLINOIS: Hello, Jane. Thank you for taking my call. Hello?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, go ahead, Marcia. Go ahead, my dear.

MARCIA: Thank you for taking my call.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You know what it is -- you have your TV on so it`s hard for us to hear you because there`s a delay. But, you know, a little birdie told me you were going to ask about the stretching, one of my favorite pieces of video on this.

Jordan Rose, attorney, you`ve been very patient. We have watched this interrogation go on and on. You heard Jayne Weintraub suggest that perhaps Detective Flores didn`t do quite as good a job as we`ve all been giving him credit for because he didn`t get the confession. Should they have played good cop/bad cop and have one come in and get real mean and the other real nice?

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: I think Detective Flores took control of the situation and looks like a leader in this -- in all of these instances. He`s not having any of it. She is an egomaniac and it`s creepy, almost haunting how her posture changes, her demeanor changes. She gets this little bitty girlie voice when she talks to him in certain topics and it`s almost as if she is trying -- she is stretching, she is trying to flirt, flirt with the detective. That`s kind of her MO. She`s watched one too many Lifetime movies and that`s just not how it works.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think you`re right.

ROSE: It shows her as a sexual aggressor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think you`re right. I thought it was kooky behavior but now that you mentioned it, I think it is part of her using sex to try to get her way. It didn`t work in that case. The detective was not buying it.

Nancy is up next.



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« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2013, 04:12:56 PM »

Letters From Travis?

Aired January 16, 2013 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet up on a work trip in Vegas and they fall hard, but when the flame burns out and they break up, she then moves 300 miles to get back together, to pursue him, even converting to Mormonism to get her man.

But then 30-year-old Travis Alexander found slumped over dead in the shower of his five-bedroom home, shot, stabbed 29 times, violence so brutal, it resembles a mob hit. And just hours after Arias stabs Travis to death in the shower, she has sex contact with a brand-new boyfriend, literally hopping on top of him while Travis`s body is decomposing in the damp shower stall.

Testimony reveals 27-year-old Arias has wild sex with Travis all day long, even photographing the sex. But then, just minutes after, she slashes his throat.

Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, we learn Arias returns her rental car covered in stains resembling, quote, "Kool-Aid," with all the floor mats gone.

And in a torpedo to the state, will a series of letters, allegedly from Travis Alexander, set Jodi Arias free?


JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: If I was trying to -- trying to kill somebody, I would use gloves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) you said (INAUDIBLE) plan this out perfectly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was not a good lie.

ARIAS: If Travis were here today, he would tell you that it wasn`t me. I have to maintain my innocence! I can`t admit to doing something that I haven`t done!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was she saying? You didn`t know what she was saying.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want you to sit here and tell me a lie and lie.

ARIAS: There`s no reason I would ever want to hurt him!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seemed like the reason they broke up was because they didn`t trust each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My job is to speak for Travis right now. Everything Travis is telling me is that, Jodi did this to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) he showed up and was telling us that he had broken up with Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis didn`t want their relationship to be public.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the next day, he got in his car and noticed that all four tires were slashed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no way anybody else...

ARIAS: He never raped me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How was she going to get you? Did she have a weapon?

ARIAS: She had a knife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said she had a gun before.

ARIAS: I don`t know if she had a gun. I think -- I`m guessing.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, we learn Arias returns her rental car covered in stains resembling, quote, Kool-Aid, with all the floor mats gone. And in a torpedo to the state tonight, will a series of letters allegedly from Travis Alexander set Jodi Arias free?

We are there at the courthouse in Phoenix and taking your calls. First of all, straight out to Beth Karas, she and Jean Casarez coming straight out of the courtroom. More Jodi Arias caught on tape.

What happened in court today, Beth?

BETH KARAS, LEGAL ANALYST, "IN SESSION": Well, jurors heard about the rental car that you just talked about, and they also heard from a police officer in Utah who stopped her just hours after she killed Travis Alexander. He`s in the bathroom. She`s up with the new guy, Ryan Burns. This is the next day.

And he stops her -- for the first time in his 13 years on patrol, he`s never seen an upside-down license plate, and that`s what she had on her car, and only one plate. She said, Oh, my friends must have been playing a joke on me. Of course, the state will argue that was one of her efforts to avoid detection, or at least easy detection, to have the plate upside-down and not as easily read, in case anyone were looking for her.

They also saw the rest of that interrogation tape from the day after she was arrested. She continued to deny having anything to do with it. But she did say, Nancy, If I had it in me to kill him, the least I could do would be to do it humanely and quickly, because his death was anything but quick.

GRACE: OK, everybody. Let`s hear it from the horse`s mouth. Here`s Jodi Arias caught on tape.


ARIAS: I just -- I just see -- like, I`ve seen "The Sopranos" and they`re not mafia or anything, but you know, I just honestly -- there`s a part of me inside that thinks they`re never going to come after my family. OK, if you don`t believe me, that`s OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to. I`m trying really hard.

ARIAS: I`m just saying that, you know, it sounds to me like -- like I`m already in the system, pretty far in. I`m not getting out anytime soon. And as long as the rap falls on me, I think that...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not good. Don`t do this.

ARIAS: No, I`m just saying I think that as long as there`s less of a chance that my little brother is going to be hurt or my mom or my dad or my sister that live there.

He wasn`t really moving, though. He was just staying kind of still on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then what happened?

ARIAS: Well, as soon as he said, Go get help, I turned around and I - - they were there and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were they?

ARIAS: They were in the bathroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where at (INAUDIBLE) out in the hallway or in the bathroom?

ARIAS: The girl was in the hallway, kind of, and the guy was more toward in the bedroom, but like, still in the bathroom, like, on the tile carpet area right there where it starts.


ARIAS: And he started coming toward the bathroom, too, and I...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do? What happened? What happened, Jodi? What did you see?

ARIAS: I chickened out like a little bitch!


GRACE: Jodi Arias caught on tape. Now, you see how her clothing has changed.

Jean Casarez, this is after just one night behind bars? She spends the night, she thinks about the last story she gave, that she wasn`t there. She is confronted with DNA evidence showing that she was there, and this is the story she concocts overnight? One night behind bars cracks her?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": She had to find something because in that first interrogation, not only was there DNA evidence, a palm print, but she saw the pictures, the pictures that showed her right there. So she had to think up something. And day two she admitted, I was there, but it was intruders that did everything.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Odom, death penalty-qualified prosecutor, Peter Odom, defense attorney, joining me out of Atlanta.

Eleanor, I`ve been thinking about this a lot. In one of those photos, you see Travis Alexander crumpled down. He`s dying or dead. His life`s blood is flowing out of him. And inadvertently, you catch Jodi Arias`s foot and pants leg in the photo.

I`m going to go back to Beth and Jean on this, but the cop says, Look, here`s your foot. This is your leg. Aren`t these your pants? And much like the naked photos of herself, she goes, Hmm. Now, in the naked photos, she says, That does look a little bit like me. And this one, she goes, Well, you know what? I do have some pants almost just like that, except -- I don`t know, she said the zipper`s over here or the stitching is different. It`s her legs dressed.
What I`m saying -- where`s Eleanor, Peter? What I`m saying, Eleanor, is after all this wild, crazy sex they`ve had all day long, OK, he`s in the shower, obviously in the afterglow of all that crazy love, getting more photos taken of himself and his biceps, he`s looking all sultry, she`s dressed, Eleanor. She`s totally dressed.

Why is she dressed? Because she is concealing a gun and a butcher knife. Her lover still thinks they`re having a romantic interlude. He`s in the shower naked, doing whatever. She`s totally dressed. She`s packing, Eleanor. That shows premeditation, that one photo of her wearing clothes.

ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, you`re exactly right. And what else does it show you? It shows you she`s going to make a quick getaway because she`s dressed. She`s ready to go. So she has thought this all through, not only the knife that she`s got, the gun that she`s got, but how she`s going to get away and get away fast. So that`s a great piece of the puzzle to put into the evidence.

GRACE: Peter?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s just one of many possibilities. It also could be exactly as her attorney laid out in opening statement, that he came at her and she had to defend herself. And you know, Nancy, which version the jury ends up buying is going to completely depend on how convincing...

GRACE: Wait a minute! Whoa! He came at her? Why was she dressed?

PETER ODOM: Nancy, look, there were two people there. Only one of them is alive to tell the story. And so we have to see at the end of this trial...

GRACE: What does that mean? What...

PETER ODOM: ... what the evidence shows.

GRACE: What does that say? That`s not an answer. Did you just...


GRACE: ... wait and see how it turns out?

PETER ODOM: Nancy, you`re asking me to speculate on what all this means.

GRACE: I could go ask somebody that on the street and they could tell me that much. Of course, we`ve got to wait and see how it turns out. But we are three attorneys. Between us, we`ve probably tried 300, 400 felony cases.

PETER ODOM: At least that. And so -- and so...

GRACE: He comes out of the bedroom completely naked. He`s in the shower. He`s all sultry. He`s getting photos of himself. Give me the shot of him showing his bicep. He thinks everything is fine and dandy. She`s fully dressed. She`s concealing a weapon, Peter.

I mean, it`s very apparent to me. Every piece of evidence speaks volumes. Here he is...

PETER ODOM: But the trial is not over yet.

GRACE: She`s dressed...

PETER ODOM: But the trial`s not over yet.

GRACE: Well, then, where is she get -- where did she get the knife? Where was it?

PETER ODOM: I don`t know, Nancy. You know, that`s going to be for her -- that`s going to be for the state to explain if they want to convict her of murder.

And I`ll tell you something. The state`s making a mistake here. The prosecutors in this case are -- she is calling the shots. They are chasing her agenda. Why don`t they get back to proving the evidence of murder against her, rather than chasing all her lies? She`s running this trial.

GRACE: You know what, Peter? That is a very astute observation. They are. She is playing "catch me if you can." But what they`re doing is laying a foundation of all her lies.

Back to the lawyers -- and also joining me, Mike Walker, senior editor "National Enquirer."

Before I go to Mike, very quickly back to you, Beth. It`s very important they show these lies. Explain.

KARAS: It`s very -- I couldn`t hear. It`s very important they show the what?

GRACE: Lies.

KARAS: I couldn`t hear you.

GRACE: Lies.
KARAS: Yes, well...

GRACE: She is lying about everything.

KARAS: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. She had so many opportunities when she was talking to the police on the telephone, before she was arrested, two days after she`s arrested, two different times, to say, look, you`ve got it wrong. This is not first degree murder. This man was abusing me. You need to understand what I was going through. And she doesn`t. She doesn`t do that ever. She changes her defense two years after she`s incarcerated.

GRACE: Out to Mike Walker, senior editor, "National Enquirer." Apparently, there is bombshell evidence lurking out there, letters, apparently, allegedly, from Travis Alexander that have been brought forth by whom?

MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER" (via telephone): Well, Nancy, Jodi Arias has tried to ensnare us, to drag us at "The National Enquirer" into her twisted scheme. What she has done is she has given us letters, and these letters are meant to portray or to trash Alexander`s reputation as a violent, sex-crazed deviant who abused her so horrifically, she was forced to kill him.

GRACE: Is she using her mother as part of this?

WALKER: Yes. Her mother came to us and said that Jodi wanted us to publicize these letters that were allegedly written by Travis Alexander in his own hand, and she had electronic copies of these letters.

GRACE: What do you mean electronic copies? What`s that, a photocopy?

WALKER: Yes. Like -- yes. And so we looked at the letters -- and obviously, I mean, this is a big murder case. Anything that, you know, is going to shed any light is interesting to us. We didn`t really believe this because the letters -- well, we`ll talk about the letters, what the letters contained later, but anyway...

GRACE: Do they portray...

WALKER: ... that`s what she wants us to do, publicize...

GRACE: ... Travis as some type of...

WALKER: ... these letters.

GRACE: ... a deviant and Jodi Arias is trying to get her mom to bring them to "The Enquirer" to publish?

WALKER: Yes. Her mom approached us. She was quite emotional. She was in tears. And her mom, I don`t think, knows what`s going on. She just said, Jodi wanted me to get these letters out to the public. I`m only doing this because she asked me to.

And she presumably has, says the mother, other letters in her possession, but she`s holding off on releasing them. And then the letters -- we saw the letters, and we realized what she was trying to do.



ARIAS: If I had planned to hurt him in any way -- I`m -- you know, I`m not the brightest person, but I -- I don`t think I could stab him. I think I would have to shoot him continuously until he was dead, if that were my intention. And again, I bring up the gloves again, that I would have to wear gloves because, I mean, I`m not too worried about prints (INAUDIBLE) all over anyway, but -- I would never stab him, if -- if I had it in me anyway (ph) to kill him...


GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. And with me, the senior editor of "The National Enquirer" that was approached by Jodi Arias`s mother, according to Mike Walker, who says they, Arias and her mother, wanted these letters, purportedly from Travis Alexander, to be published by "The National Enquirer."

I don`t have the letters. That`s going to be in your upcoming issue, I understand. But I have bits and pieces. In one of them, it says Alexander asked Arias to wear boys` briefs that he can rip off. OK.

WALKER: That`s right, Nancy.

GRACE: Next tidbit that I know, Alexander asks Arias to wear his shirt with engraved cufflinks -- his engraved cufflinks so he can see his initials while she performs oral sex on him.

In a March 2 alleged letter, Alexander admits he once hit Arias, quote, "in the face." In another alleged letter, Alexander claims that marrying Arias would help erase his, quote, "deviant thoughts."

You know what, Mike Walker? Please tell me that you are not going to publish this crock. I don`t believe one bit of this. Could they produce the letters so a handwriting comparison could be done?

WALKER: Well, yes. And let me just go back to what you say about the second letter. Speaking as a man, I find it very hard to believe that any man, you know, deviant, vicious, murdering killer, would say something as silly as, I want to you wear my cufflinks with my initials so I can look at my initials while you`re -- you know, I mean, it`s insane. It sounds like a girlie fashion thing to me. It sounds like something that a woman might write.

GRACE: Well, it`s something a 5th grade girl trying to write...


GRACE: ... a porn novel.

WALKER: Exactly, imaging how men are deviant. And let me tell you, if a guy was (ph) wanted to write something deviant in this kind of a situation, it would be a lot more shocking and brutal and direct than that.

GRACE: Well, Mike, did they ever produce the original letters?

WALKER: The original letters, they claim, have been destroyed.

GRACE: My, that`s convenient!

WALKER: They no longer exist. Yes. Yes.

GRACE: So you guys are not publishing this, are you?

WALKER: Well, you can`t publish what is not in existence. Well, we could -- we could publish the photocopies. We -- I don`t think that decision has been made yet. You know, this is a trial. We`re very careful with what we release.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Mike? If they were published, they would only show that Jodi Arias is trying to scheme and manipulate even from behind bars. It would, in my mind, paint her in a worse light.

Jean Casarez, what do you make of it?

CASAREZ: Well, let`s talk about the May 2nd letter because I don`t think you got to all of that. In that letter, Travis allegedly admits that he hit Jodi in the face, and he also says that marrying her would help -- and you just said this -- would erase the "deviant thoughts" that he had about her.

And so the defense believes that these are relevant because, there you go, there is the abuse that they have said was the reason why she had to fight back in self-defense. But the prosecution...

GRACE: Why are they just emerging during the trial, though, Jean? I think that this is a big fake. This is a trick by the defense, by Arias, to drag Travis Alexander through the mud!

CASAREZ: I think these letters emerged several years ago. I don`t think this is the first time. First time we have ever seen any content of those letters, yes. But I think these letters emerged in motions several years back.



ARIAS: A lot of people were dropping my name, and I said I`m not worried about it because I didn`t do it, I said, but it`s very much -- it`s hurting my reputation and it`s (INAUDIBLE) casting me in a bad light.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn`t be worrying about your reputation right now. I`d be worrying about the rest of your life. That means nothing. Absolutely nothing.

ARIAS: Well, my reputation will affect the rest of my life, so I am worried about my reputation.


GRACE: Back to Mike Walker, senior editor "National Enquirer." Mike, I`ll tell you why they want these letters, which I believe were faked, by the way -- why they want these letters to come in, because if they can get these letters in, that way, they can try to argue self-defense in front of the jury without Arias ever taking the stand.

WALKER: That`s a very good estimation, Nancy, because, right, it`s exactly that. This gives her chance for her Hail Mary, you know, He abused me, so I had to kill him in self-defense, defense.
And these letters -- I`m not sure, by the way. I want to make clear I`m not sure we`re not going to publish them. I`m just saying we have not yet. And as you know, there are -- or I think you know, we have -- there are other letters that we don`t have yet, but that Jodi Arias`s mother says she has.

GRACE: You know, it`s interesting that they`ve come to you guys to publish them. Why don`t they just try to get them in court? And if they haven`t been able to lay the proper foundation, they continue to try. Apparently, they`re trying to taint the jury pool.

WALKER: Well, yes. But do you know about the history of these letters? We discovered that they were, as someone just mentioned, in the case a couple of years ago, 2010.

GRACE: Right, they allegedly emerged back then, but now they`re trying to bring them in front of a jury.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened when the last picture was taken?

ARIAS: He was kneeling down in the shower. I don`t remember -- (INAUDIBLE) if this is his shower, and the sink is over here, I was, like, right here taking pictures. And I don`t really know what happened after that exactly, except I think he was shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were you?

ARIAS: If this is his shower and he`s sitting here, I was, like -- I was, like -- well, if this is his shower, he`s sitting here. I was, like, right here on my knees. And his bathtub is right here, and I was taking them here. And I was just going through the pictures, and I heard this loud ring. And I don`t really remember except that Travis was screaming. I think I got knocked out, but I don`t think I was out long.


GRACE: Out to Bonnie Druker, our team at the courthouse.

Bonnie, what is she talking about? So the first day she`s not there. She spends the night in jail. One night, one sleepover and she cracks and comes up with another story. You can see how defensive she is throughout the entire interrogation, now she is sitting in a fetal position, all curdled up against the interrogator.

Explain this story. Give it to me in a nutshell, Bonnie.

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, I mean, in a nutshell she said that intruders broke in and they attacked Travis Alexander. They brought her to a different room. They attacked her. She heard him screaming and then she took off and didn`t call 911. She said she didn`t call 911 because she was scared that something would happen to her family if she said that this story had happened.

GRACE: OK. Beth Karas, when did the self-defense claim emerge?

BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Around June 22nd, 2010. It was after they attempted to get some evidence in and the state said, no, that`s not admissible unless it`s a suicide or an accident or self-defense. And lo and behold 10 days later they filed notice of self-defense so she never talked to the police and said, I did it but I did it in self-defense. It was her lawyers in June of 2010 who filed notice. I think she told experts, though, who evaluated her psychologically about how she killed him.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Lisa in Florida. Hi, Lisa. What`s your question?

LISA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi. I was just watching those interviews and I feel like Jodi is telling us a lot about how she murdered Travis because at first she says that there were two white male intruders and then she changed the story to a male and a female and I believe she is the, quote-unquote, female intruder and that is how she is telling us how it happened.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting about what you`re saying, Lisa in Florida, and I`m going to throw this to our psychologist, Kathryn Smerling.

Kathryn, I very often when assessing defendants` statements, I can see interspersed in the statement a confession, bits and pieces of the truth would be in their denial. Kind of what Lisa in Florida is saying, that the way she describes this ninja hit on Travis Alexander, I don`t think we ever get a motive or why they would kill him or anything like that. Of course she couldn`t make out their faces, but some of it is very revealing, Kathryn.

KATHRYN SMERLING, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. I agree with you, Nancy. She is a very shrewd sociopath. I don`t think -- I think she`s a very smart woman. I do not believe that she is naive or foolish in one -- in one bit of the way. She lives in her own reality and part of her own reality is a little bit of the truth. And that`s the way sociopaths work. They have a little bit of the truth. Then they grab on to that and they create something that works for them. She`s been able to manipulate and to be able to change her story depending on who her audience is.

She appears to be a wonderful actress who is methodical and well thought out and very shrewd. So, yes, there is a little bit of this reality in her sociopathic unreal world. Absolutely.

GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. It`s Zion Lovinger. Zion, a very dear friend of the victim in this case, Travis Alexander. He knows Arias. Zion went on that Cancun trip that Travis was supposed to be on. Little did they know his body was decomposing in a shower stall while they were in Cancun.

Zion, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Zion, how did you know Travis Alexander? How would you describe him? And when did you meet Jodi Arias?

LOVINGER: I met Travis when I was about 17 years old. I had joined the company that he was working in and I looked up to Travis. I mean, he was -- I really admired him. He was very inspirational. He was -- he was able to connect and really help people. He helped me individually. So, yes, that would have been back in about 2002, I believe. I met Jodi --

GRACE: I was reading part of his blog, Zion, and I was very impressed about how he was changing his life and how he was trying to move forward in his life and to be the man he wanted to be. So how did you meet Arias and what was your impression of her?

LOVINGER: I actually met Jodi at her baptism when she joined the church, when she joined the LDS Church. She was -- she`s a conversationalist. She`s -- you know, she`s attractive. I think that made a difference -- you know, that impacted Travis. He -- I think he was flattered by the attention that Jodi gave to him. But I mean --


GRACE: What was she like? What were her interests?

LOVINGER: She was very into energies. You know, I think Jacob was on your show a while back and --

GRACE: What`s that?

LOVINGER: You know, I think Jacob was talking about how she was into Wicca and she was very into energies and positive energy and she was into a lot of self-help books and --

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Back it up, friend. Hold on. Hold on. What do you mean she was into energies?

LOVINGER: Energies, you know, like positive energies, negative energies, whatever you put out and get back. Things like that.

GRACE: But how are you into energies? How are you -- I`m into energies, what does that mean?

LOVINGER: Well, I don`t know how else to describe it other than --


I mean --

GRACE: Would she talk about it?

LOVINGER: That`s one of the things --

GRACE: Was she into Wicca, which is witchcraft?

LOVINGER: Yes, I had a couple of conversations with her, I remember, with her about her -- about her studies in Wicca, yes.

GRACE: Whoa.

LOVINGER: I don`t -- I don`t remember any of the details. I mean -- I mean to be honest, I don`t remember any of the details --


GRACE: OK. Think, think, use that noodle. Discussions about Wicca, now, see, that would stand out in my mind if suddenly somebody told me they were interested in witchcraft.

Now, see, when I was talking to Travis` other friend the other night and he was telling me this, I thought that he -- did say that he saw it on her social media page, and that there were some creepy shots of her and it mentioned witchcraft. I did not know that she actually confirmed verbally.

OK. You`re creeping me out, control room.

I didn`t know that she actually was having conversations that she was for sure into Wicca, witchcraft.

LOVINGER: You know, she made it pretty clear that that was something from her past and something that she wasn`t practicing. You know, I -- honestly, Jodi`s issues run much deeper than Wicca. This woman --

GRACE: What do you mean?

LOVINGER: -- is nuts. Well, I`m --


The psychiatrist who was just talking on, you know, she nailed it on the head. This woman is a sociopath.

GRACE: You mentioned that Travis could sometimes get defensive when anyone questioned him about Jodi Arias, questioned whether they should be together. When did that finally wear off? The second time she slashed his tires?

LOVINGER: You know, I actually don`t remember saying that, but I know that has been mentioned by other guests that you`ve had. At that time I had moved out to Utah. When things really went sour between Jodi and Travis, I had moved out to Utah from -- that would have been about February of 2008. And so I was not aware of how toxic the relationship had become at that point.

GRACE: Why do you believe that Alexander fell for her to start with?

LOVINGER: I think it`s important to understand, you know, where Travis came from. And to give an example just in high school, you know, he was not popular. He was picked on. You know, his clothes didn`t fit right. His pants were flooding and he was not a confident person, and to go from where he -- you know, to come from where he cam from, and then to have the success that he had, and to then start getting the attention that he began to get.

Jodi, you know, she made -- number one, she was accessible to him and she`d really -- and she made herself accessible to him. She`s attractive. She got attention from others. And -- yes, I think -- I think Travis was flattered by all that attention.


GRACE: Welcome back. We`re taking your calls. Colin in Washington.

Hi, Colin, what`s your question?

COLIN, CALLER FROM WASHINGTON: Well, I have four brief questions. I`ll try to be as brief as I can but --


COLIN: Her lying and having to defend herself with all the outcome of her talking about -- with the detective, her defense wounds, did they even know about those and then you guys are now saying it`s two years later for the self-defense. I mean --


COLIN: That it came to fruition. So -- I mean, how can you defend yourself if you`re naked in the shower? I mean, you don`t -- you don`t -- I`m sorry.

GRACE: OK. Hold on, Colin in Washington. Let me make sure I understand your questions. You`re saying at the time she was interrogated by police she didn`t mention self-defense and why.

COLIN: Yes. Yes.


GRACE: OK. Hold Colin in Washington, and I`ll come back to him for his next question.

Matt Zarrell, did she ever mention self-defense or defensive wounds on her hands during the tapes?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes, she did mention cuts on her hands, but she gave numerous different excuses for why she had the cuts on her hands including cutting her hand on a glass at Travis Alexander`s home, getting scratches on her hands from a cat, and the new story is she got injured by -- on her hands by these intruders that came in and killed Travis Alexander.

GRACE: And I`m sure, Matt Zarrell, by the time the trial is over she will claim that she had the scratches due to self-defense.

And keep Colin in Washington, please.

Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, toxicologist joining me out of Madison Heights, Michigan.

Dr. Morrone, please explain to me your theory what was happening when Travis Alexander was shot in the face.

DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: What`s really important is that a lot of the medical examiners have established that the shot came after all the stab wounds, but what is interesting, and Dr. Horn is very specific in his autopsy, from Maricopa County, and he says that the gunshot wound is from right to left and it`s downward.

You can never shoot anybody in the head going from one side to the other and down unless they are on the ground and you are over them, shooting them as you`re standing. And there`s no gunshot wound surrounded by gunpowder, so she was a couple feet away. That is not a defensive wound and that is very important that -- if we`ve missed it in the last week.

GRACE: So Colin in Washington, that one thing, in addition to the nine stab wounds in the back show this is not self-defense.

All right, what`s your next question, Colin?

COLIN: The rental car company, I mean, wouldn`t it raise a red flag, no pun intended, for the car rental associate or manager that the seats were not stained with Kool-Aid but they were stained with blood and so have the police investigated the car rental place at all?

GRACE: Good question. Hold. Beth Karas, response?

KARAS: We don`t have any information that they actually did some forensic testing on those stains. I mean, the car rental company is not under investigation. But maybe that`s to come in the case. However, now that she`s admitting that she did it it`s not that big a deal.

GRACE: Colin, I agree with Beth, and the reason that they were not interrogated at the time, the car rental place had no idea. They thought it was Kool-Aid. They had no idea it was blood. It wasn`t incumbent upon them to forensically test the car, so they just cleaned the car, got new mats and went on with it. It was only later that it became more critical.

OK. What`s your next question?

COLIN: I hate to say that I`m just being judgmental because I think she`s guilty as sinned, no matter -- she`s fatal attraction woman, you know, just look really terrible but, don`t you think that this is all premeditated because of the stalking and the escalating of her attitude or slashing the tires? The jealousy of the new girlfriend that he had? That`s the one question.

The second part of that is, don`t you think, you know, she just wanted the lavish lifestyle and his money and so she can -- still continue to, you know, go on doing what she wanted, but she`s just basically a sexual deviant sociopath?

GRACE: You know, Colin, I think that it was more than just the money that he had. Now he came from nothing and you heard his close friend Zion Lovinger describing him in school. He was the nerd that everybody picked on and made fun of. You know, when he came above that and went beyond that and became successful, very handsome young man, had achieved so much.

I think that in her mind she wanted to own that -- own him and everything about him. He was an object to her. She didn`t love him, Colin. Or she could never have hurt him the way that she did.

As far as premeditation, Colin, premeditation under the law can be formed in an -- in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, in the time it takes you to raise a gun and pull the trigger. My best example that I would give to juries is it does not require a long, drawn-out period of time, just poisoning someone over a period of months. It can be just like that.

But in this case you see her enter the home with a stolen weapon. You see her in that bathroom concealing a weapon and a knife. And the way we know that, Jean Casarez, is because of the time stamps on the photos. She`s taking pictures of him in the shower and within less than a minute he`s under attack. There`s no time for -- to go run, grab a kitchen knife or find a gun. She`s got it on her somewhere.

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": She -- that was so astute, Nancy, of you to think about what is the obvious that she had those clothes on at the time of the shower time. But the premeditation in this case really far exceeds any trial that I can think of that I have covered in the last 11 years because it begins back in Yreka and even before June 2nd because the plans are made and developed.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want me to believe that somebody else was there, you have to show me. You have to explain to me what happened. Otherwise, it was just you.


GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Angie in Kentucky. Hi, Angie. What`s your question?

ANGIE, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Yes. I have a question and a comment.

GRACE: Mm-hmm.

ANGIE: Where`s her family? Do -- has she ha d history of mental illness? And do you think that in situations like this, this is why we need a stronger mental evaluation before they`re able to purchase guns?

GRACE: Well, Angie in Kentucky, she stole the gun from her grandfather. So it was not a gun that she purchased herself. But I think there should be more of a screening process before you buy a gun. But that`s just me. But I`m a victim of gun violence. So that`s where I`m coming from.

Her mom and sister have been in the courtroom. There`s no caution she had a mental history other than one time she said she cracked up over another man. Now I don`t know what that means. She was never under any medication, had treatment, nothing that we know of right now.

Out to you. Beth Karas, did she sit like that throughout the entire second day of interrogation, all curled up?

KARAS: Well -- well, once she starts talking about the two intruders, yes. It`s interesting. It would be interesting to see what a body language expert would say about it because she`s, like, creating this barrier. She`s kind of getting drawn into herself. She even has her head down buried between her knees at one point when she`s crying and saying -- and talking about how the intruders did it.

But you have to believe there`s a little truth in what she`s saying when she`s talking about he was bleeding everywhere, he was down on all fours, he was alive but not conscious, that she was recalling how he really was when she killed him.

GRACE: John Lucich, criminal investigator, president, E Forensics. What do you make of the interrogation tapes?

JOHN LUCICH, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR, PRESIDENT, E FORENSICS: You know, I just think she`s covering her lies. She just keeps changing her stories. These are obviously not defensive wounds. Defensive wounds are not stabbed 30 times. You`re not shot and then your throat slit from ear to ear. Those are not defensive wounds.

Another thing that bothers me about this case is that she asks for a car that blends in and she asks for a white car. So if you just go to Google and search for what color car blends in, CNN had a story back in 2012 that said white blends in the most and green is for rebels.

Now this is the computer forensics part of it. People need to take a look at her computer and take a look at her cell phone because I think a lot of this stuff will be found after she did a lot of research to cover her tracks including what color car to rent.



ARIAS: If Travis were here today, he would tell you that it wasn`t me.



GRACE: Matt Zarrell, at any point -- not that the state needs to prove it under the law. Did police ever discuss motive?

ZARRELL: Actually, they did, Nancy. Arias challenged the cop at one point saying what`s my motive? And Detective Flores immediately rattled it off. He says jealousy, fear, anger, afraid of being alone, there are so many motives with you. Too many.

GRACE: You know, unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, death penalty prosecutor. Also joining us from Atlanta, defense attorney Peter Odom.

Eleanor, have you ever noticed during interrogations or when you have talked to a defendant in those rare chances you get to but when you get them on the stand, for instance, and you ask them a question they answer with a question like, well, what`s my motive? Or why would I do that? I mean, that`s a classic textbook evasive answer.

ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: I know. And I like to tell the jury, you know, they`re lying when they give you that kind of answer because they can`t answer the question straight out. And you see that time and time again, Nancy. They try to go all the way around the answer. So you have to stop and say, well, my question to you is, you know, and repeat the question. So that`s just a classic thing you see all the time. You can really attack it in court.

GRACE: And, Peter Odom, come on, she literally has her head between her our knees like when you`re going to pass out when she`s giving this story about what happened.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And you know, people can talk about body language all they want. I happen to think that that has no more sense than chicken bones and tea leaves and, you know, soothsaying. Her body language is what she wants you to see. And she`s clearly a good actress. She`s clearly in good shape. So you know, body language means nothing, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, Peter. According to you, nothing is anything in this entire case --

P. ODOM: Well, that`s not what I said.

GRACE: I guess the crime scene photos and the forensic evidence is nothing. But you know what? You`re the one comparing it to chicken bones and tea leaves.

Everyone, a special good night tonight from friends Christina Lalique and George. Aren`t they handsome and beautiful?

Yes, you wave. There you go.

And happy birthday to our superstar Ellie. With me all the way back to Court TV. Launched our HLN show. Now starting a brand new chapter of her life.

Dear Ellie, walk slow and hurry back, friend.

"DR. DREW" up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.



  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2013, 04:19:12 PM »

Jodi Arias: Murderer?

Aired January 16, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, this man dated Jodi Arias. Did she use him to make the man she killed jealous? What attracted him to her? And does he think she`s a murderer? He`s telling me in an exclusive interview.

Plus, this: a 13-year-old boy accused of murdering his baby brother, on trial as an adult. His mother was 12 when he was born. He was sexually assaulted by a relative, beaten by his stepfather, left on the streets, and worse.

We are asking: should this child be prosecuted as an adult?

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Very interesting stories this evening.

My co-host this week is Jillian Barberie Reynolds. Thank you for joining us, Jillian.


PINSKY: It`s going to be heavy. We`re going to be getting into it in a big way.

Tonight, we have two exclusives in a few minutes. In a few minutes here, we`ve got a man who dated Jodi Arias. He`s going to speak for the first time publicly. There he is there with her.

But first, joining me on the phone is another special guest. It is Veronica. She called us the other night spontaneously and told us that she used to work with Jodi, had some observations to share with us about her behavior.

So, Veronica, I want to pick up where we left off. First of all, thank you for joining us again. I know you`re rushing off to work and you agreed to spend a little time with us.

VERONICA, SAYS SHE KNEW JODI ARIAS (via telephone): Sure. Aloha, doctor.

PINSKY: Aloha. Mahalo for being here.


REYNOLDS: What did she call you?

PINSKY: I don`t know. It`s something in Hawaiian.

VERONICA: It means no problem.

PINSKY: Take us back to when you were working with her allegedly in the desert area, Palm Springs, I think you said Rancho Mirage. She was a waitress, you were there, and you started hanging out with her and she gave other people the creeps so badly that your co-workers are telling you to stay away from her. Tell us about that.

VERONICA: Absolutely. Jodi had major issues that we could call see. She was horrible at her job so, I was always helping her, picking up her slack.

Everyone else wouldn`t touch -- wouldn`t help her at all at work, because every time she got a bad tip from a table it was oh, there was a woman at the table, Veronica, she was jealous of me. That was the reason she got a bad tip. Not horrible service.

PINSKY: And then the friends of yours that told you to stay away from her, what was it they were sensing? We`re hearing more and more that she had this sort of what she called a spiritual side, which just sounds like sort of this weird side where she would be silent for periods of time and sort of not seeming to respond normally to people. Is that what gave people the willies?

VERONICA: Exactly. She had no social skills. She didn`t know how to relate to people sitting at a table and serving them. She was void of emotion. She had a flat affect.

She -- there just was nothing inside of her. You know, she didn`t know how to perceive emotions and actions in a normal way.

PINSKY: And you said that she at one point tortured a cat and then after having done so -- now, I`m going to let you tell the story, but after having done so, then she said -- this was new information to me. That she said something about feeling that she should have felt bad about it but didn`t? Tell us that story.

Oh, we lost her. I think we`re losing her phone reception right there.

REYNOLDS: She looked after a cat for a couple of weeks and -- are you back?

PINSKY: Go ahead and tell the story.

REYNOLDS: Basically the person said could you look after my cat. She said, yes, and left the cat in a dark room for two weeks. And it was half dead. And she said, oh, I guess I`ve got to go get the cat because the person`s coming back.


REYNOLDS: Should I feel bad this about this?

PINSKY: What`s this new information she shared with one of our producer, Veronica. She said I think I should feel bad about this, but I just don`t, and then started pretending as though she felt bad.

Now, excuse me, this behavior of not having genuine emotion --


PINSKY: And then behaving as if or sort of learning how normal people behave with emotions --

REYNOLDS: Doesn`t that -- isn`t that consistent with what she`s done with --

PINSKY: Well, yes, that`s psychopathy. If that report is real -- Veronica, if you come back we`ll get back to you but I want to go to "In Session`s" Beth Karas.

Beth, what do you make of Veronica`s comments? Number one. Number two, does it fit with what you know of the facts? And number three, I`m going to ask you to bring us up-to-date on the court proceedings today.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Well, what Veronica had to say about her does seem to fit with the little that we know about her. I mean, what we know about Jodi is in the world of her new Mormon friends, because she became a Mormon technically before she started dating Travis and then she sort of joined his social circle. And a lot of these folks we`ve spoken to outside of court, they`re not testifying, have said there was something a little off about her.

She was inappropriate in the presence of a lot of people in her public displays of affection for Travis. She would nibble on his ear do things that were just really uncomfortable for other people around. She was extremely possessive of him. And that`s independent of all of this alleged stalking behavior and obsession she had.

She just was odd in social settings, exactly what Veronica said. I have been told that she was fine one on one. But with a group, she just didn`t know how to relate.

PINSKY: Well, Beth, we`re going to get into the one on one just after the break because I`ve got a young man that dated her for a while and was really in the jaws of the beast and lived to tell about it. And he himself has a lot of feelings about it.

REYNOLDS: Right. Her actions seem consistent, and I was talking to him a little bit in the green room about her sort of changing to morph, to be with other people, whether it was their religion or just trying to fit in. It`s almost consistent with not really knowing who you are.

PINSKY: Being so empty and really having no identity or having just a lot of confusion about -- what we call theory of mind. That minds have content.

Beth, can you bring us up-to-date on the proceedings today in court?

KARAS: Yes. So eight days of trial so far. The state is still presenting evidence. Today, there was a focus on the car she rented when she went on that road trip from June 2nd to June 7th, killing Travis in the middle of it all. The man who rented her the car said she came in, she wanted a car for just local travel, she brought it back a day late with 2,800 miles on it.

But when he was giving her a red car, she said, no, no, no, she wanted something a little less loud. She took a white car. And we learned that when she returned it, all the floor mats were gone and there were some stains, a stain that he thought was Kool-Aid on the front seat and a bigger one in the back seat. We haven`t heard if those stains were tested, but it`s kind of a non-issue now that she admits to killing him.

We also heard from an officer who stopped her a day after she killed Travis Alexander. She only had one plate on the car and it was upside down. She was very pleasant. She said my friends must have played a joke on me.

And, finally, the rest of her interrogation from the day after she was arrested, she continued to deny she had anything to do with Travis`s death. She continued to blame two intruders. But she did say at one point, "If I had it in me to kill him, at least I would have done it humanely and quickly."

PINSKY: Would have shot him, she said and worn gloves.

Beth, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.

I`ve got Veronica back.

Veronica, I want you quickly to take us back to that cat story again and tell us how you experienced that.

VERONICA: Yes, doctor. So anyway, she was taking care of this cat supposedly for two weeks. And after the two weeks she had told me, she said, "Veronica, boy, when I went to retrieve the cat after two weeks" -- I said, what do you mean after two weeks retrieved the cat? She said, "Well, I left it in a room with enough food and water." I said, for two weeks? What are you talking about, Jodi? She said -- and she kind of got a little startled at my response.

And she said, "Well, when I went to get the cat to take it to the Humane Society, it was shaking, veronica. The cat was shaking. I guess I kind of feel bad." Uh.


VERONICA: "I kind of feel bad." That bleached blond.

PINSKY: That was where you drew the line with her I understand. That was where you started realizing there is something wrong with her.

Did she ever talk about her family? Her siblings?

VERONICA: The only way she talked about her family was this, Doctor. She spoke fluent Spanish. She was really good. And I said, Jodi, wow, you speak Spanish. You know, are you part Spanish or South American, whatever? She said, "No, I`m half Mexican."

And that`s where the hair color came in. Because I was like, Jodi, why are you bleaching the hair? I mean, it was so -- it was horrible. And she said because -- she goes, she didn`t want to look ethnic.

PINSKY: Interesting.

VERONICA: That was her response. She was half Mexican, she didn`t want to look it.

PINSKY: Well, Veronica, thank you for spending a little time with us. I do appreciate it. It`s very interesting. No doubt we`ll be checking back with you again. As I said, Mahalo.

And --


PINSKY: -- next up, an exclusive with a man who says he dated Jodi Arias. What did he think when he found -- he also knew Travis Alexander. What did he think about -- what did he consider when he learned that Travis had been killed? What thoughts raced through his mind?

And later, I`ve got a child, and I mean a child, charged with severe murder, tried as an adult. I`m going to get your thoughts on this.


PINSKY: All right. I`ve got an outstanding panel tonight who will be standing by.

First of all, psychologist Wendy Walsh from Investigation Discovery`s "Happily Never After", former prosecutor Loni Coombs, and defense attorney Darren Kavinoky from "Deadly Sins", airing Saturdays on Investigation Discovery.

But, first, joining us for his first time on national television is Abe Abdelhadi. He says he dated Jodi several times and then spoke to her after Travis Alexander`s death.

Abe, thank you for joining us first of all. We really do appreciate it.

Tell us how you met Jodi and what your relationship was and what it was like.

ABE ABDELHADI, FIRST INTERVIEW ABOUT DATING JODI ARIAS: It started off innocuous. We met at a regional event. I was introduced to her by a friend in common.

And we got into each other`s cars. She told me she liked my energy, that kind of thing.

REYNOLDS: Was she into that kind of thing? Was she sort of --

PINSKY: Energy person?

REYNOLDS: -- spiritual?

ABDELHADI: Yes, spiritual. You know, she kind of came off a little flighty. But regardless, she was cute.


ABDELHADI: And I thought, what the heck? So we swapped cards and started a phone conversation. And then what had occurred over the next couple of months we would talk. I didn`t see her at our Las Vegas convention, but when we got back into town, we would be at the same events and then we`d go out afterwards and we started sitting next to each other at events and then I asked her to a lunch, we went to a lunch.

And then we actually had a dinner date, and this was probably at this point now from September when we finally went out was end of December of 2006.

Now, what had occurred then I thought was kind of interesting. We went to dinner in Pasadena. We walked around. We went to Barnes & Noble. We ended up in the spiritual books section, philosophy section.

She asked me about my religious background. I shared that with her pretty bluntly. I had been religious as a child and by my mid-20s was doing something else.

She told me she was dabbling in Mormonism.

PINSKY: Dabbling in Mormonism.

ABDELHADI: Right. And that was her term. That`s the quote, "dabbling in Mormonism."

And so, I asked her bluntly, well, who`s the other guy? And she said, what do you mean? I said, is it your ex you used to live with? She said, no, I was looking into faiths and this seemed like a good one.

And I said, well, that`s not exactly for the faint of heart. You`ve got no caffeine, no beer, no premarital sex. There`s just a bunch of restrictions. It`s a very tough religion if you`re going to just jump into a religion.

So I thought it was an odd thing to say that "I`m dabbling in Mormonism.

REYNOLDS: Jumping in here, was that your last date? You guys did not have sex, correct?

ABDELHADI: No, we did not.

PINSKY: They hooked up a little bit. Tell us about the hookup.

ABDELHADI: Yes, well, that night, we did get together a little bit. I walked her to her car. And we were in the parking garage. And she was pretty enthusiastic. She wasn`t afraid of oncoming cars or anything like that. Some girls get really skittish when cars are coming, they don`t want to get caught by their parents or something.

She was actually very comfortable. And at one point, I made an innocent little reach. Really didn`t get much past high school. But I made a little reach to find out candidly speaking if she was wearing thong panties or not. We all have our Peccadilloes.

And so when I realized that she was, I made a little joke and I said that`s not magic underwear. And I was alluding to the undergarments -- I was making --

REYNOLDS: Right. A Mormon.

ABDELHADI: It was a Mormon joke. It was in bad taste. But, you know, in the moment.

And so, I made that joke. And I said this isn`t magic underwear. And she said but there`s magic in them. I thought, OK, this is fun, she`s going to be fun.

So the next day called her, didn`t get a call back. The second day she called me back and she explained to me that she was getting back together with her ex and that she felt guilty, she felt like she was cheating on him with me even though we really only got together the once. And --

PINSKY: Abe, I`m going to interrupt you. I`m going to push the story forward. You maintained a phone conversation over a long period of time, you had a friendship. You didn`t really go anywhere. And she was constantly obsessing about Travis and sharing all her obsessions with you about him.

And then you find out he dies.

Tell me about that moment, where you were and what you thought.

ABDELHADI: Well, we had all just gotten back from this Cancun trip that we had all won. Travis and I were acquainted. We had a lot of good friends in common. But he and I were never tight. And he wasn`t on that trip.

PINSKY: And I`m going to stoup again there and say you shared with me that the defense is trying to make Travis a bad guy who was exploiting this girl and you tell me you that never heard any women speak ill of him, he wasn`t somebody who was going out there and exploiting other people, there was no reputation and that --

ABDELHADI: None whatsoever. He didn`t have that reputation. We`ve all been in the same business for a number of years. Reputations get spread around.

PINSKY: Right.

ABDELHADI: You know, we were all higher up in the company. We kind of all know each other or of each other. I never heard boo.

PINSKY: Right.

REYNOLDS: I have a question. Abe, when you heard that Travis died, did you for one second at all think ever that she had anything to do with it?

ABDELHADI: Absolutely. As soon as we got off the plane and I got my phone off of airplane mode and my phone was blowing up with texts, I told my buddy who traveled on that trip with us, I know who did it, because for the previous week and a half every day for two months, her and I would get into a conversation. And she would call me ostensibly, we never saw each other socially but she was always calling me.

And so --

REYNOLDS: And she was obsessed with him, with Travis? She would talk to you about Travis and her obsession with him?

ABDELHADI: Yes. It seemed kind of childish. In hindsight, obviously it wasn`t because it would seem kind of childish but she would say things like I don`t know what I`ll do if I can`t have him or he would be such a great father to my children.

I would tell her flat out, well, you became a Mormon, you`re a pretty girl, you know? Drop into any ward -- which is a Mormon church, by the way if you don`t know -- drop into any ward and you`ll meet a great guy. And, you know, so just let it go. Don`t be attached to a result. What are you supposed to do?

And so, when we got off the plane that night I don`t know why I knew but I knew. And then the next day, because I got home at 3:00 in the morning, I slept maybe two hours, I woke up eight some breakfast and I called her about 8:00, 8:30 or so and just -- you know, I was fishing. I called her to fish. I called her to see what was going on.

I asked her where she was. She said she was still up in Yreka where I knew her to be. I hadn`t talked to her probably since about March or April. This was now about June.

And she said she was tending bar -- or waitressing someplace.

REYNOLDS: So you thought you were talking to a killer. Did you feel strange about that? Because you felt that she did it.

PINSKY: And you were with her.

ABDELHADI: My blood pressure was through the roof. It was through the roof. I was walking when I did it. I went outside to walk so that I could work off some nervous energy because I was trying to sound like oh, my gosh, I`m so sorry for you when I knew she did it.

And then what happened was I felt guilty because within about 10, 15 minutes she starts crying, because I`m asking her these different questions. Hey, did he ever have a bunch of people over to the house? Did he ever do these in-home parties for the business? Maybe somebody, six degrees of separation, who did you see?

And then she`s saying, well, you know, he had a lot of people over, he would have these USC game parties and everything else, it could have been anybody, oh, my God, this is so terrible. And then she starts crying. And then I feel like an idiot.

And then, about 2 1/2 weeks, 3 weeks later I get a call kind of out of the blue from her and I answer the phone. I say, hey, what`s up? And she was like, hey, I wanted to thank you for your maturity and your friendship -- which is just such a crock thing to say.

And I asked her how the service went, because I assumed she was going to the funeral in Riverside.


ABDELHADI: And she said that she didn`t go. She said that she had caught a flat just outside of Fresno, somewhere in central California. It took six hours for the AAA guy to get out there. By the time he got out there she figured the services were over so she turned around and went home.

PINSKY: All right.

ABDELHADI: And that`s when my neck started to crawl again because I`m thinking --

PINSKY: You knew that was a lie?

ABDELHADI: Yes, because if you -- I had --

PINSKY: Abe, I`ve got to stop you. I`ve got to take a break. We`ve got more questions for -- yes, a lot for you. It`s very interesting. I think all of us have the hair standing on the back of our neck when you tell the story. You were --

REYNOLDS: Do you feel lucky? I mean --

PINSKY: Well, hold that. I`m going to let you answer that when you get back. And later on I`ve got a really terrible just --

REYNOLDS: I can`t get this story out of my head.

PINSKY: -- about a kid that had been horribly abused himself, allegedly commits a terrible crime and now is being tried as an adult. There he is right there.

We`ll be right back with more after this.



JODI ARIAS: What kind of gun is that?


ARIAS: I just bought a gun.


ARIAS: Mmm-hmm.

INVESGITOR: We probably found it by now.

ARIAS: If Travis were here today, he would tell you that it wasn`t me.

INVESTIGATOR: My job is to speak for Travis right now. And everything Travis is telling me is that Jodi did this to me.


PINSKY: That was a clip from the intensive questioning of Jodi Arias by investigators in July of 2008. I still have got my great panel standing by here with us.

And I`ve got Abe, we`re just enrapture with your story here, Abe, and I want you to answer that question that Jillian asked you before we went to break -- do you feel lucky?

ABDELHADI: Absolutely. I do feel lucky, because that call that I got when she called me back could have been to let`s go out again. And who knows how that would have turned out? I -- you know?

REYNOLDS: Abe, not to -- I`m sorry to jump in. You said something interesting to me if the green room, because she is a good-looking woman. Most guys would look over the fact that she might have been a little strange and creepy and just, you know, of and wanted to sleep with her and just gotten what they wanted to get and moved on. But you didn`t.

There was something, maybe that voice in the back of your head saying not for you.

PINSKY: Don`t go in there.

ABDELHADI: Not permanently. Not at all. I`ll be candid and I`ll sound completely shallow. I wanted to go out with her for pretty much one reason.

She was a good conversationalist. She was obviously easy on the eyes. She was fun. You know, she could talk and she`d read books.


ABDELHADI: I was a witness to that Spanish speaking. One time I had -- at an event I had a couple Spanish guests. My Spanish is intermediate or so. And she sits down and she starts rattling it off like Ricky Ricardo.

PINSKY: See? That to me, I want to stop, that story is interesting.

Wendy, I want to go to you now about this. This is a woman we heard - - we interviewed a guy that spent a week around her. We interviewed him a couple of days ago. And he said he didn`t speak three sentences to her.

Now, we`ve got a woman that`s sitting down at a table with strangers and speaking fluent Spanish. That and Abe`s story, Wendy, what do you make of all this?

WENDY WALSH, PH.D, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, definitely she has a major personality disorder. And it seems, Dr. Drew, that she is screaming to try to figure out who she is, some identity. And she`s using the idea of morphing into what everyone else thinks she should be as a way to try to find humanity in herself, if you will.

PINSKY: Right.

WALSH: Clearly, we see she suffers from no guilt. She doesn`t feel compassion. And then this search for a religion, especially a staunch religion, as an adult, always tells me that here`s somebody who may have a chaotic interior and they`re looking for a rule book to help keep them in control because they`re feeling out of control inside.

REYNOLDS: Wendy, doctor, you`re both doctors, and I`m going to field this to you. I saw a lot of the photos, unfortunately, the ones in the shower. And what really struck me were the ones where he`s living and taking a shower. And I`m thinking why is she -- what is the psychosis of someone taking a shower knowing that that`s the other person`s last --

PINSKY: I`m going to let Wendy answer this, too. But it`s sort of like -- it`s very similar to what she did with the cat, which is such a disregard for life, which is we feel violated by the idea that she knew she was going to kill this guy and yet she almost celebrated life in that moment and then disgustingly violated it.

Wendy, do you agree? Go ahead.

WALSH: I think she was also feeling a great deal of power at that moment because you know, what she learned -- remember, she`s looking to everybody else for the rules of how she should feel and how she should behave. And guess what men told her. You should behave and feel like a highly sexy creature.

So, watching an aroused male made her feel empowered.

PINSKY: Right.

WALSH: And also knowing that she held his life in her hands.

PINSKY: Loni, you had something?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I have a much more sinister theory about this too, and that is look, she was a smaller woman. He was a larger man. She knew at some point if she was going to do this she was going to have to overpower him and if he kind of saw what was going on -- remember, he already had his guard up because she`d done a done a lot of strange things and these stalking behaviors. If he had any inkling what was going on he may have been able to overpower her.

So what better way to take him by total surprise get his guard totally down than to have this very romantic interlude and then in the shower, he doesn`t have access to anything that might be able to be used as a defensive weapon.

PINSKY: Right.

COOMBS: He`s wet, he`s naked. And then you see that one picture that I think is so chilling where his back is to her. I mean, that is the perfect target of the stabbing of the back.

REYNOLDS: So disturbing.

PINSKY: Chilling, disconnected, disturbing, disgusting. These are all the feelings we all have in regard to somebody that would do this. It`s really hard to talk about, in fact.

Now, ahead, Darren, I hear through, I`m going to get you in, in just a second. Ahead, I`ve got a suspicious and disturbing comment from the Jodi Arias police interrogation. The question is: will her own words convict her?

And Kool-Aid was an important topic today. I want to ask my panel, will the jury drink her Kool-Aid?



ARIAS: I don`t think I could stab him. I think I would have to shoot him continuously until he was dead, if that were my intention. And again, I bring up the gloves again, that I would have to wear gloves.


PINSKY: That was Jodi Arias seeming to speak hypothetically during her police interview. Darren Kavinoky, what is the jury going to do with all these lies and these goofy stories? And how is the defense going to pull something together that the jury is likely to believe? And is the jury going to drink that Kool-Aid?

DARREN KAVINOKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Well, she`d better hope that the jury drinks that Kool-Aid because there are two battles that are being fought here. The first one is over guilt and innocence. And then, of course, the second one is about the penalty phase and about really saving her life if you`re on the defense side.

So, she`s told many conflicting stories, but one of the most interesting things to me about this case is that the notion of self- defense, that she did this out of saving her own skin. It didn`t come from any police interview that she gave. That came from something her lawyers filed, which was a notice of self-defense earlier in the case.

And so, ultimately, if they`re going to fulfill on that promise, she`s going to have to take the stand. There`s nothing about this case from which we could elicit facts that would allow them to argue self-defense.

PINSKY: That`s interesting. Jillian, you wanted to ask something?

JILLIAN BARBERIE REYNOLDS, TV HOST: Doesn`t that hurt her that her lawyers, her defense team, decided to go that route, because if in fact that is the case and you are feeling like your life is threatened, 29 times you`ve got to stab the guy, you`ve got to shoot him to and then you don`t call the police?

PINSKY: She`s going to be -- she`s going to be on -- she`s got some explaining to do, right?


KAVINOKY: Yes. Like Ricky Ricardo (ph).

REYNOLDS: Most people feel threatened, they call the police. That is something she did not do right away.

KAVINOKY: But in the heat of the moment -- and it`s an interesting notion. But in the heat of the moment the idea that there were multiple stab wounds, multiple death blows, that`s actually consistent with self- defense when somebody is trying to stop a threat, they don`t just -- they don`t just do one shot. They don`t just stab one time.

REYNOLDS: If you look at the timeline, and the timeline is clearly pointed out on the camera that was actually taking pictures, what threat was he posing naked, wet in a shower? The photos actually went off at 5:30 --

PINSKY: I`m going to jump in and say Jillian ain`t drinking that Kool-Aid.


REYNOLDS: I did not drink that Kool-Aid.

KAVINOKY: I`m not saying it`s a great argument. I`m saying that those are the cards that she`s got to play. And ultimately, again, keeping in mind that we`re also fighting the battle for her life, she`s got to take the stand because she`s not likeable at all when you lay out the chronology of lies.


KAVINOKY: And if she doesn`t get up there on the stand and come across as personable or as Abe said, she`s well read, she`s got this other side, she can come off as an attractive personality, she`s got to get some of those jurors, at least, one of those jurors if not voting not guilty at least voting to spare her life --

PINSKY: Hang on, guys. Darren, I`m going to jump in. I`ve got just a couple minutes left with Abe here. And Abe, again, thank you so much for joining us on this show.


PINSKY: You dated Jodi. She stopped in Pasadena, I guess, it was on the way back after having killed Travis. Did you think that she was on her way to see you?

ABDELHADI: Well, the receipt that I saw recently and a good friend of mine had pointed this out as a theory was a couple of days before she got to Arizona, which I thought was interesting, to go from Yreka to Pasadena to Arizona. I didn`t think about that till last week. So, I hadn`t thought about this in a few years, much less that kind of a detail.

I was in Mexico. And thankfully, I was in Mexico because I don`t know what her goal was, alibi, whatever. But I certainly would have let her come up to the house and, you know, obviously hindsight is 20-20. I -- you know.

PINSKY: And finally, Abe, you actually have a relationship with this person. Although, it was peculiar and it was in, it was out. Do you think as someone who is the most likely, I would suspect, to have some compassion for her, should she get the death penalty?

ABDELHADI: Absolutely. Absolutely. There`s no way she didn`t do it. It was premeditated. You don`t go 15 hours from Yreka to Mesa and then dye your hair in April. One last thing before I go, we are awarded this trip in April of the year we win it. So, it`s in June that we go. But in April we`re told.

Now, the prosecutor had informed me that she dyed her hair in April of that year. So, she was planning this as soon as -- and I`m just speculating at this point that Travis told her she wasn`t going on the trip.

PINSKY: That`s when she --

ABDELHADI: That`s when she dyed her hair.

PINSKY: OK. Hold on, I`ve got just seconds left. April, strangely enough, in Ohio, did you want to make a comment?

APRIL, OHIO: Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: April.

APRIL: Has she ever been administered a lie detector test, and would she be able to pass the test being a pathological liar?

PINSKY: Loni, what do you say to that?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Wow. Well, you know, you would know better than me, Dr. Drew, if either she could pass that test. I would say she, you know, she`s a psychopath. But she hasn`t been given a test as far as I know. And if she was, it wouldn`t be able to be used in court anyways as we know they`re inadmissible.

PINSKY: There you go. Thank you, guys.

ABDELHADI: Both sides agree.


PINSKY: Thank you. Abe, thank you so much for sharing the story.


  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2013, 04:21:13 PM »

Jodi Arias Voicemail Played During Murder Trial
Prosecutors allege Arias left the voicemail for her ex-boyfriend shortly after killing him.

02:40 | 01/16/2013

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« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2013, 04:23:08 PM »
Jodi Arias Even Lied to Her Diary After Travis Alexander Was Dead
January 17, 2013

Jodi Arias, who has admitted lying about killing her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander, even lied to her diary in the weeks after his death, according to entries obtained exclusively by ABC News.

The page of diary entries, found in court motions, was seized by police from Arias' bedroom in her grandparents' California home. The entries are dated from June 10 through June 13, 2008, days after Alexander was shot and stabbed to death on June 4. His body was found by friends on June 9.

Arias, now 32, has admitted killing Alexander, claiming it was in self defense and that Alexander, 30, was an abusive lover.

The page begins ".. that Travis is dead. What happened?!? Travis, what is this?"

The next entry is dated June 11and said in part, "Last night was so hard... I wanted so badly to call Travis, but knowing he wouldn't answer was too much to bear. And knowing he wasn't calling me anytime soon was just killing me. I broke down as I climbed into bed and just cried and cried and cried until I fell asleep."

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« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2013, 04:24:46 PM »
Jodi Arias Trial Update: Rental car agency testifies to "kool-aid like stains" in car alleged killer returned
January 17, 2013


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« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2013, 04:25:04 PM »

I saw NG comparing this monster to KC and Scooter.  It's like a generation of "Its All About ME" people.

These are my opinions and subject to change.
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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2013, 04:29:25 PM »

January 17, 2013 TWEETS

2h Vinnie Politan ‏@VinniePolitan
STATE RESTS in #JodiArias case....

3h Vinnie Politan ‏@VinniePolitan
#JodiArias blank stare as her friend testifies for the prosecution
 View photo

5h Vinnie Politan ‏@VinniePolitan
"i would have worn gloves" #JodiArias
 View photo
5h Vinnie Politan ‏@VinniePolitan
January 16, 2013 TWEETS

16 Jan Vinnie Politan ‏@VinniePolitan
#JodiArias Budget employee on the stand NOW on TruTV!!!

16 Jan Vinnie Politan ‏@VinniePolitan
Who was with #JodiArias at Budget rental car? The Budget employee testifies today! Watch #InSession until 3pm, then #HLN after 3pm!
January 15, 2013 TWEETS
15 Jan Vinnie Politan ‏@VinniePolitan
#JodiArias checks Travis Alexander's voice mail messages AFTER she kills him... Great evidence of jealousy and fatal attraction...

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« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2013, 05:00:55 PM »

I saw NG comparing this monster to KC and Scooter.  It's like a generation of "Its All About ME" people.
Shes like kcs long lost twin. I still cant believe the questions this jury had. Are there really that many idiots in the jury pool in this country? Im a little nervous about this verdict after they were moronic enough to question the roommates alibis. She already admitted she did it! Scary that they might just be stupid enough to buy this self defense crap. I also heard a talking head idiot say that its plausible & she was so traumatized she went into a dissociative state & doesnt remember doing it. Really?!?!?!
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« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2013, 08:21:40 PM »
Prosecution rests in high-profile Ariz murder case
January 17, 2013

PHOENIX (AP) Prosecutors have rested their case in the high-profile trial of an Arizona woman accused of killing her boyfriend in 2008.

They called their last witness to the stand Thursday, a female friend of defendant Jodi Arias.

The woman testified that she had dinner with Arias 24 hours after Arias allegedly killed 30-year-old Travis Alexander in his suburban Phoenix home.

The 32-year-old Arias could become the fourth woman on Arizona's death row if she's convicted.

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« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2013, 03:53:15 PM »
Jodi Arias Mistrial Motion Highlighted Stalker Claims
January 18, 2013

The murder trial of Jodi Arias has been punctuated with increasingly angry calls for a mistrial and the arguments have cited a woman's claim of being stalked and menaced, suggestions of ethnic bias and personal jibes among the lawyers.

The prosecution rested its case Thursday and the defense will begins its arguments on Jan. 29. In the meantime Judge Sherry Stephens will consider the defense's request to dismiss the case outright as well as the motions to declare a mistrial.
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« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2013, 04:01:35 PM »

Prosecution Rests in Jodi Arias Trial

Aired January 17, 2013 - 19:00   ET


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two weeks off for the jury. Then they're back at it with the defense. Jane Velez-Mitchell is all over it. She starts right now.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Just when you think you've gotten a handle on the Jodi Arias murder case, it takes an unexpected twist. Today, that happened again.


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Done already? An abrupt ending to the prosecution's case in the Jodi Arias death penalty trial and why will jurors now have to wait a dozen days before they hear Jodi's defense?

Are backroom negotiations happening right now with Jodi's lawyers trying to get that death penalty off the table? Did today's final witness boomerang on prosecutors? Was she better for this admitted killer than the other side? We're debating it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state may call its next witness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state rests.

But she never confided in you that she killed him, did she?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The camera actually took a couple photos by accident during the time he was being killed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said you knew her. What do you think about that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her entire past is a complete secret to everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Arias was certainly an invited and willing guest in Mr. Alexander's home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right after she found out that he had been killed, she was very upset and distraught. She was crying and sobbing.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER SUSPECT: I ran into the closet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said that Travis was dead. That he had been killed and that she couldn't imagine why someone would do that to Travis.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a dramatic and surprising day in court as the prosecution suddenly rests in the Jodi Arias death penalty trial. Yes. No more witnesses. A lot of people didn't see that coming.

Now the jury heads home for 12 -- count them -- 12 long days. And everybody is wondering why the delay and when they come back, will Jodi herself take the witness stand?

Good evening. I'm Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

The beautiful 32 year old admits she stabbed her ex-boyfriend 29 times, slit Travis Alexander's throat from ear to ear and shot him in the face. Jodi claims it was all in self-defense. But how can the jury believe that Jodi killed in self-defense after seeing these extremely graphic autopsy photos of Travis repeatedly stabbed everywhere on his hands, in his back, a dozen times?

Those violent images are in in direct contrast of the flattering way the last prosecution witness described Jodi.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The person that I had known was a very quiet, soft-spoken, gentle person and so that person that I knew I couldn't imagine could have done something like that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a minute. Why on earth is a prosecution witness singing Jodi's Arias' praises? She's on trial here. The prosecutor was furious and scrambled to erase that nice image of Jodi from the jurors' mind and confronted this witness with Jodi's sex pictures.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't mean to be indelicate, but you said you knew her. You see that photograph?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who that is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you know anything about that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about exhibit number 164? Who does that look like to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Know anything about that aspect of her life?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: But does taking sexy pictures or having sexy pictures taken of you really equate to a propensity to violence? Was this a huge blunder for the prosecution as the jury goes home for almost two weeks and that's the last thing they hear, a compliment to the defendant.

What do you think? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-977-586-7297.

Did the prosecution prove its case? Our poll shows 82 percent say yes. However, we're debating it tonight with four top attorneys. Two who side with the prosecution. Two with the defense.

We begin with criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, I believe, Holly Hughes. Holly, did the prosecution prove its case that Jodi murdered Travis with premeditation?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Jane, the judge instructs the jury that you can't make that decision until you see both sides of the evidence. So at this point until we hear from the defense you can't make that call. I can't make that call. The jurors have been instructed not to.

We know that they are claiming self-defense. I fully expect they're going to put a domestic violence expert on. And after they -- the defense has a chance to put it up, then we can say, "OK, we ruled one way or the other."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Holly -- Holly...

HUGHES: But the way they came out swinging in opening, I think we got a good shot.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Holly, I didn't ask whether the jurors felt that the prosecution had proved its case. I wanted to know do you think that the prosecution should have rested today?

It was a stunner. People weren't expecting it. We're going to tell you in a second that there were some people who thought they were going to testify who ended up not testifying. Do you think it was smart for the prosecution to rest its case with what it had accomplished thus far?

HUGHES: No, because they got plenty out on cross-examination about how he treated her, how he treated her like a possession, how he talked down to her, how he called her dirty, nasty names.

And the fact that their last witness is saying this defendant is a gentle, soft-spoken person, then the prosecution shows dirty pictures of her. Well, so what? Your friends should not know about your sex life. They should not know about your dirty pictures.

They would have been better to call somebody else who was going to say, "Yes, you know what? She flat-out confessed. I knew she was vicious. I knew she was violent."

This is not how they wanted to end it. And I think the defense has a chance of at the very least hanging it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor, your response?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: My response is that's ludicrous. There's overwhelming evidence of premeditation in this case.

I mean, the bottom line is just because one witness takes the stand and says she's a gentle person has nothing to do with the fact that there are stab wounds, 29 stab wounds on this individual.

Anybody can take the stand and say, "Well, in my presence they were gentle and nice, but I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors."

And if somebody calls you nasty names, all of us have been called nasty names at one time in our life. Doesn't give you the right to go ahead and murder somebody in cold blood. So I don't think the prosecution has a problem at all.

I don't think this witness that ended the prosecution's case made one difference. And the fact that they were showing pictures was to show the time line: that she was there having sex with him all day and within 20 seconds the photos show what happened. That there was no possible way that he was doing anything to her that would lead her to kill him in self- defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The prosecution tried to prove that Jodi murdered Travis in a premeditated fashion. And to do that they showed that Jodi disguised her identity when she went from blonde to brunette. She was a blonde when she rented that white Ford Focus.

And by the way, she drove 90 miles from her home in Redding, California, to rent a car when she could rent one in the same town where she lives. And then they show that she didn't want a red car that was offered her. She wanted a less visible car with a light color. Something that wasn't too loud or ostentatious.

And most important, they showed, or tried to prove that she orchestrated a phony gun burglary at her grandparents' house in order to get a gun and the gun that was suspiciously stolen from grandpa's House, same caliber as the gun used to kill Travis Alexander that was never found.

Brian Silver, criminal defense attorney, that's a lot of premeditation evidence and testimony.

BRIAN SILVER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I got to say I disagree with all of you. Everyone here is missing the point. This case is not about guilt. It's not about innocence. It's about mental health.

When I reviewed this case, the thing that bothers me most, where I see the biggest lack of evidence, is not about what happened that today. It's not about her palm print. It's about motive.

Because even if you tell me that she's a jealous woman and she's upset with him, her emotional response to that jealousy is overbroad. She's having a reaction that's not normal. And that's a red flag because if she was insane, if she did not have an appreciation for her actions at the time of this crime, then she cannot be held guilty for it. And that will affect not only the verdict in this case but also the punishment because that would be a defense against the death penalty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, what do you say to that?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I don't even know where to begin. I mean, this case -- I agree with Stacey -- is so strong that it's laughable to hear someone suggest that this is about mental health.

Among other things, she lied; gave three different stories about how and why this happened; and none of them were "I had really bad mental health issues." Look, I think the witness that we heard from...

SILVER: You've got to read between the lines. You know, as an attorney...

MURPHY: Let me take a point. Everyone thinks the -- excuse me. Everybody thinks the prosecution's last witness was a bad idea. I think it was brilliant. Because the only thing this chick has going for her...

SILVER: Why? Because being naked in a photograph means she's guilty? That was outrageous. It was inappropriate.

MURPHY: Excuse me. Could you just be quiet for a minute? The only thing that the defense has going for it is that this woman looks like a sweet, young girl. And she looks like the kind of person who isn't a rageful killer. That's a theatrical advantage for the defense.

What the prosecution did today was genius. They have 12 days of break now. The jurors do. And what they needed to see was to be reminded of the true image of this woman. That's why putting that witness up to say she's so sweet and gentle and the prosecution going, "Oh, yes, remember this picture? Have you seen this picture?"

The jury goes home for 12 days remembering this woman as a sexual weirdo, which puts them in the frame of mind of thinking she could be the type who kills.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Brian, your turn now.

SILVER: That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And frankly, it's as offensive as telling me in a rape case that the victim engaged in some kind of sexual innuendoes. This is not about sex. This is not about dirty pictures. And

I'll tell you something. With the advent of smartphones, everyone in this country has a camera. And guess what? You might have jurors on that panel that have naked pictures of themselves. And when you take this case...

MURPHY: And they didn't kill anyone.

SILVER: ... that has tremendous evidence, and you taint it by telling people that she's a slut with these photos, it's awful and disgusting and they ended on a low note. And as a former prosecutor, I never would have done that.

MURPHY: Just a couple seconds. But I think if he had come back with crime photo, she said he's a nice person. He's, like, yes, but look at this pointing to a photo of her naked. Naked doesn't equate -- it's apples and oranges to violence. Maybe he should have shown the bloody sink instead.
You make a good point. The purpose was to remind the jurors that she's not that sweet person they've been seeing in courtroom acting with her glasses all sweet and vulnerable. What they are seeing is a woman who is sexually aggressive, assertive, and liberated even, and that's more consistent with a personality of a woman who is strong and not weak or vulnerable or a victim. It may not sell the case but it will remind the jury that she has the very different real world persona, not this fake stuff they're seeing in the courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. On the other side, will this case break down along gender lines? Stay right there. We're debating it and taking your calls.


ARIAS: I would never stab him. If -- if I had it in me anywhere to kill him, the least I could have done was make it as humane as possible. Quick or something, you know?




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The person that I had known was a very quiet, soft-spoken, gentle person. And so that person that I knew I couldn't imagine could have done something like that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is a friend of both Jodi and Travis' on the stand who has a different impression of Jodi than the men. Could this whole case break down over gender lines with women feeling more sympathy for Jodi and understanding her in a different way than men do?

The jury is made up of 11 men and 7 women. Six of them will eventually become alternates after all of the testimony is heard. If this jury ends up being predominantly female -- although that's not likely, but it could happen -- Susan Consultation, jury consultant, body language expert, could it change the outcome of this case?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT: Not just the gender in itself, Jane. You know, we've got more men in the pool than females. We don't know, who are alternates at this point at time?

You know, it's not just their gender. It's age demographics. It's the type of work that they do. If they hire, fire, if they tens are more authoritarian. All of those things as elements have to pull together, not just gender alone.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here's the thing. This is what struck me as a real problem for the prosecution. Jurors were dismissed today. First they say the prosecution has rested. We're all like, "What?" Then they say we're going to start with testimony in 12 days. Twelve days. That's almost two weeks. Remember, these jurors are not sequestered. But they were told don't discuss the case.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You do not need to return until January 29. You must be very diligent to avoid any contact with any outside information about this case.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So after 12 long days, will jurors forget key elements of the prosecution's argument? We're talking about the camera. The crime scene forensics, lies. Remember, they brought out an actual bloody carpet with Travis' blood into the courtroom. Will that fade by the time they go to deliberate and does this delay help the defense because they're the ones who will get to speak closer in time to the verdict. I'll throw that one to Holly Hughes.

HUGHES: Jane, it's a double edged sword. You don't want them going home and ruminating no two weeks on the prosecution side. I think it cuts both ways. If they go home and what's in their head is what's been presented by the state, as the defense I would not like that. I would want to proceed quickly and go ahead and get our side of the story out there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Right after the first bombshell today that the prosecution had rested and would call no more witnesses in this phase of the case, then the judge drops another shocker. The court is in recess until January 29th. As we just said almost two weeks from now. Why this delay?

KARAS: As, do defense attorneys need time to come up with somebody who is willing to testify for Jodi Arias? Delays involving scheduling defense witnesses to testify? Or Beth Karas, "In Session" correspondent, I know you don't have a crystal ball but is one of the possibilities they are discussing a plea deal that her -- we'll plead guilty but you take the death penalty off the table.

KARAS: I think that the reason you just suggested are more likely. There's either a scheduling problem with the witnesses or the defense needs more time. It was only going to be a two-day week next week, Wednesday and Thursday only. Monday, Tuesday, Friday were dark next week. So it's really just in terms of the jury's -- and then Monday is a hearing.

So in terms of the jury being away, it's only three days for the jury away. Sounds like a lot, 12 days in all. But it's not really.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let's go to the phone lines. Janice, New Jersey, your question or thought, Janice?

CALLER: Well, yes, Jane. I would like to know why all of the prosecutors and your lawyers and psychologists have not come up with my theory because she knew he was taking a girl on vacation, she went there making darn sure she was going to be the last person he ever had sex with and documenting it with photos.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I'm left speechless by an incredible theory. We're going to debate it on the other side with our team of top attorneys.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had told us that he wasn't dating her and he thought she was following him around and that's when she had been caught snooping around and peeking into his windows at his house. She had told my older brother, Gary, on the phone that he thought it was her that was for sure slashing his tires, and he really had a strong feeling that it was Jodi.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seemed kind of childish because in hindsight it wasn't. But it seemed kind of childish, because she would say things like, "I don't know what I'll do if I can't have him." Or, you know, "He would be such a great father to my children." And I would tell her flat out, "Well, you became a Mormon." You're a pretty girl. You know, drop into any ward, which is the Mormon Church, by the way, if you don't know. You drop into any ward, and you'll meet a great guy. And, you know, so just let it go. Don't be attached to a result. What are you supposed to do?

And so when we got off the plane that night, I don't know why I knew, but I knew.


HAMMER: That's a guy who dated Jodi and said he knew right away that she had killed Travis.

Now, let's get back to the caller's theory. Travis was set to go with another woman to Cancun on a vacation that he had won, and he told that other girl, who wasn't quite interested in him, "There's no one else I want to take but you."

So Dr. Jeff Gardere, forensic psychologist, our caller, I think it's brilliant. She says she's furious that he's taking another woman. I think we can all relate to that. And then she goes one step farther. She says, "I'm going to make sure he never has sex with anyone else ever again. I'm going to have sex with him one last time."

And we know that that happened from the photos that we saw of Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander naked after having sex. And then that's it. He's never going to have sex with another woman. What do you think?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think that's certainly quite a possibility. This sounds like a woman who had a short fuse. She's accused of slashing his tires.

And this was perhaps one of those situations where there was a lot of sex. Along with that sex, we know there's a lot of emotion. A lot of possessiveness and that's a recipe for disaster of you're going to do this with me one last time and then you're done.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to Selin Darkalstanian, our senior producer, out there in Phoenix, Arizona. You have new information, because I think a lot of us were stunned that all of a sudden the prosecution wrapped up. Like, what? Already? What do you know?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Yes, Jane. I was on the phone with some of the witnesses that were actually supposed to take the stand for the prosecution next week. And some of them actually have plane tickets and were ready to come out here and take the stand next week. And they got a call pretty abruptly to tell them, you know, don't come out, the prosecution has rested.

So it makes you think was this a sudden move to rest today, because as far as it seems by talking to the other witnesses, they were supposed to take the stand and they were supposed to go through to next week. What was the prosecution thinking by resting today?

Stacey Honowitz, as a prosecutor, what could you tell us about what might be behind the scenes? I know from covering other cases that you often have a witness list a mile long and then you only bring in a few to the witness stand. You do that to play head games with the other side.

I remember I was subpoenaed for a day or two in the Michael Jackson sexual molestation case, and I wasn't called ultimately. But why might they have just sliced that witness list?

HONOWITZ: Well, Jane, you know. this happens all of the time. This is not unusual where witnesses are subpoenaed. They're on standby. They have to be ready to go. The often when you are in the trial itself and strategically you figured out that you have proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt or what you think is beyond a reasonable doubt, then there's no reason to drag it out and call these other people.

Strategies change. What starts in the beginning maybe you want to have 30 people come in. I think as the ball gets rolling, as testimony comes out in trial, things change.

And if you feel as though, and prosecution team felt as though they had enough to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no need to call these other people. So it's not really anything strange. It's not unusual. It goes on all the time every day in every courtroom in every state.

BLITZER: And by the way, as we all know, there are very eerie parallels between this case and the Casey Anthony saga, and we're going to examine that tomorrow in-depth. A little bit tonight but more tomorrow.

At the top of the hour Nancy Grace talks to a friend and former colleague of Jodi Arias'. That's at 8 Eastern. On the other side, we're taking your calls and we've got more new information on this case for you.


JENNIFER WILLMOT: Jodi was Travis' dirty little secret. It's just one minute, just one minute of time, between the camera falling until you see the picture of Travis with blood. One minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who has her? Do you have a name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I just wanted to offer any assistance that I can. I was a really good friend of Travis'.

ANTHONY: I still have that feeling of presence. I know that she's alive.

ESTEBAN FLORES, POLICE DETECTIVE: Jodi, this is over. This is absolutely over. You need to tell me the truth.

ARIAS: Listen, the truth is I did not hurt Travis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For years she pretended she had a job and pretended she had a nanny.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi did not always tell the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am very confident just by having talked to you in the short period of time that you know where she is.

ANTHONY: I don't.


ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is.


ANTHONY: If I knew of any sense of where she was, this wouldn't have happened at all.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are there stunning parallels between these two high profile cases? First of all to update you the latest today on the Jodi Arias case, the prosecution suddenly rested. No more witnesses in this phase which was a bit of a shock to a lot of people who had expected more witnesses. And then we learned it's going to be 12 days before the jurors come back and big question will this woman you're looking at right there take the stand?

Now, in the prosecution's case against Jodi Arias they focused heavily on Jodi's lies -- lies. Remember, in Casey Anthony's trial, the prosecution did the same thing focusing on Casey Anthony's lies, playing tapes of Casey lying to police about everything from her job to Zanny the nanny.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and haven't returned her?

ANTHONY: She's the last person that I've seen with my daughter, yes.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are prosecutors in the Jodi Arias case making the same mistake here by focusing too much on Jodi's lies and not enough on her motive and her acting out of what they believe is a cold blooded murderer.

I'll start with Brian Silber, criminal defense attorney.

BRIAN SILBER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I absolutely agree. They are putting too much focus on her contradictory statements. I don't think there's any doubt in this jury's mind about whether or not she actually killed this guy. And to focus on the stories back and forth is a major strategic error because this will open the door for a defense attack to fill in the blanks -- specifically not only that she killed somebody but why? And their claim of self-defense is where they're going to make that attack. And they're going to talk about the things that drove her to do what she did.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Former prosecutor Wendy Murphy, your response?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh my goodness. Look, of course they're going to focus on the lies. That's the key evidence in this case for one very simple reason. No one at this point denies that she killed the guy. It's whether she acted in self-defense. That's a brand new concocted defense.

First she said she had nothing to do with it, wasn't there. Then she said two people came in and, you know, she saw it but left. Then, you know, the third story is, ok, I did it but it was self-defense. By the way, there's no physical evidence of self-defense at all. So, good luck with that.

The fact is by using the lies what the prosecution is going to emphasize and they're going to do it over and over and over again in the closing argument is her state of mind. If this were really a woman so battered, so vulnerable, so victimized, so beaten down that she had kill in self- defense with both a gun and a knife and slit his throat from ear to ear. She was just so vulnerable she had no choice but to act in self-defense.

You know what the prosecution is going to say? Why didn't she say that the first three times she made up stories? It's not credible. The lies prove that she's a liar on her current claim of self-defense.

SILBER: You are falling into a tremendous trap with that theory. That theory is going to take this prosecution to a bad result. I'm going to tell you why. Because it's not a question of what she did. It's why she did it. If they're going to go --

MURPHY: Are you a comedian or a lawyer?

SILBER: -- excuse me. You don't have to make personal attacks on me. I'm not saying --

MURPHY: Now I can't do it to you but you could do it to me.

SILBER: Absolutely not. That's unprofessional and you know it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. All right, kids.

SILBER: Not to mention -- let's get back to our case. Ok. At the end of the day is this is going to go to a jury and they're going to have to decide is she guilty of murder? In Arizona there's a thing called guilty except for insanity. When it goes to the jury, they're going to have to make that call. And ultimately if this goes to the penalty phase, the number one mitigator in Arizona law against imposing the death penalty is the defendant's state of mind while committing that crime.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh boy, I wish I had my gavel. I don't anymore. All right.

Stacey, we're going to give Stacey and Holly a chance and then I want to get Beth Karas in on this. Go ahead Stacey.

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Look, I mean you can be a defense attorney all day long. I respect Brian. I know Brian. But let me tell you something.

First of all, we all know you don't have to prove motive in a first- degree murder case. Motive - yes it's very nice for a jury to try to think she's a jealous whackadoo and that's why she did it. You don't need it.

In this case why wouldn't the prosecution focus on her lies? Do you really expect a prosecutor not to stand up in open court and say she told three different stories? I mean that would be malpractice. So in this case what you have is overwhelming evidence of her lying three times, no evidence of self-defense. The guy was defenseless in a shower, taking a shower and she's got a gun and a knife.

So the prosecution while we want to hear from a ton of people and it might be shocking, it's the quality of evidence and it's not quantity. They have the quality -- the overwhelming quality of evidence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Holly?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Ok. So she's a pretty little liar. Guess what; we found out in the Casey Anthony trial a jury is not going to necessarily hold that against her. What the prosecution needed to do was exactly what they did. Put up their gory pictures. Focus on the evidence they have and the defense will come back and say it's all about why it happened. And when she gave those first three statements, even though she didn't use the word self-defense, her language was he didn't have weapons except his fists. They're the only weapons he had.


HUGHES: So an argument could be made using her own words, using those lies and those statements that the prosecution put in, that, you know what? She was saying self-defense without using the legal terminology.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to Beth Karas because Beth, you and I were in Orlando covering the Casey Anthony case -- knee deep in mud because it rained every afternoon.

But my point is that we would have these same conversations where everybody would say she's guilty. She's guilty. She's guilty. She's guilty. And yet the jurors were seeing a different case because they're not hearing all this debate. And it plays a head game with us because we're hearings boyfriends come out of the woodwork and say this, that and the other. They are hearing a very narrow focus.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": You know this is actually different in that respect from Casey Anthony who always denied killing her daughter. And here she's now admitting it although she never admitted it to the police. Notice of self-defense was filed two years after she was arrested. So we don't what her version of how she killed him is. She told the experts that. Maybe she'll testify to it. I think she has to.

But her lies are critical to this case. She called the detective voluntarily several times. He tape recorded those conversations. She had two interrogations after arrest. She had ample opportunity to answer his questions when he said why would you do this to him? Why would anyone want to hurt him? She said he was so nice -- he was so nice to me even after we broke up.
She had so many opportunities to say he was abusive to me even if she wasn't admitting it. She made up stories along the way and her attorneys probably found self-defense is the only way to go to mitigate at this point -- not to get her off but at least to get her second degree and maybe manslaughter if they're lucky.

But I can't believe that anyone is hoping that she will walk away from this but her lies are absolutely critical to this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, there's Jodi Arias wearing a different pair of glasses today. She has a different outfit, different glasses every single day.

But one thing is consistent Susan Constantine. I think we have video of her crying. She's cried from opening statements pretty much every single day and sometimes quite a bit. And as we show you some of those tears and some of her crying, I want to ask you, Susan Constantine, jury consultant and body language expert, the subliminal impact. I mean most people are compassionate even though she has done something unthinkable. Could those tears really make a difference?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT: It really can. Whether anyone likes to hear this or not, yes, it can because as we saw in the Casey Anthony trial, she cried too. I know what is a real authentic cry when you are really feeling sadness. So when people are seeing tears, they are automatically thinking that she's emotional and she's upset. But women cry for all different reasons: for grief, for anxiety, for fear, depression, guilt -- for all different reasons.

When you look at her overall, her overall appearance, her soft voice, I think that people are having a hard time. That jurors looking at her going, you know, I'm not really quite sure. Let's hear more information. And that's what I'm seeing when those jurors are coming back and they're asking questions about the investigation. They haven't made up their mind yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And by the way, I cry for no reason at all. Sometimes I'm crying and I'm like why am I crying? I don't even know.

CONSTANTINE: Yes, exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Selin Darkalstanian, you have been in the courtroom and you also see the video. Is there a difference emotionally to seeing her crying in the courtroom than it is seeing her on videotape?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Not at all. And she's very mousey and small and she's almost hiding behind her attorney. So she doesn't have this very big presence in the courtroom. Sometimes you'll see a juror kind of glance over at her and look at her. But she doesn't have this big personality or she's not drawing attention to herself at all. I actually don't think she's doing that in the courtroom at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Interesting. Sometimes people are more powerful on video than they are in person. More on the other side. We're taking your calls.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are talking about the prosecution resting in this case and there she is resting while she's being interrogated. Not nervous at all -- very fascinating character. This has riveted the nation, this case. And on the other side, why she cried in a different way today in court.




FLORES: Travis is telling me that you did this to him.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom.

ARIAS: So I'm as good as done.

FLORES: There's pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.

ARIAS: Pigtails?

If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When people lie, it's an effort to throw truth in there to make the lie more believable.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We're debating the case with four top attorneys who have different opinions and are definitely not shy about expressing those opinions.

But first to the phone lines. Thank you for your patience -- Kinsey, Arizona -- your question or thought Kinsey?

KINSEY, ARIZONA (via telephone): Yes, ma'am. I thought it was so fascinating to discover that Jodi colored her hair between renting the car and showing up on Travis' doorstep. I was wondering if the prosecution considered Jodi coloring her hair the same color as the girl that Travis was currently courting and taking to Mexico to maybe gain entry into Travis' house that day?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh my gosh. That's absolutely fascinating. There you see she's blonde and then a brunette. You may have -- it might take a second to pull this up -- video of the Mormon girl. Maybe the good girl that Travis had invited to go to Cancun on the vacation that he won. She basically said yes, I'll go as your friend. I'm not really that interested in you. I think that sort of added salt to the wounds that she said that Travis told her there's nobody else I want to take. Meaning I'm not interested in taking Jodi Arias, the woman that he had been sleeping with on and off again.

Let me say this. It's now going to be the defense's turn in 12 days to establish Jodi's self-defense. Listen to what one of Jodi's attorneys said during opening statements about the relationship between Jodi and Travis and she brings in this issue of Travis' alleged temper.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She knew that the one thing that calms his temper the quickest is sex. As she's telling him it's ok. I'll fix it. Don't worry. Travis grabbed her and spun her around. Afraid that he was going to hurt her, Jodi was actually relieved when all he did was bend her over the desk.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Holly Hughes, it sounds like the defense case is going to try to turn this guy into a monster. He's not here to defend himself.

HUGHES: Well, it's not so much turn him into a monster as it is explain the self-defense theory that she was afraid of him. They have to present some type of evidence. You know, we've all seen lawyers get up there in opening and promise a bunch of stuff to the jury and not be able to come to the table.

That's what they started doing through cross examination when we started hearing some of the names he called her. When we started seeing the photograph of the t-shirt he made her wear claiming she was his property. They have to present this.

Stacey Honowitz was talking about, you know, if the prosecution didn't do certain things that's malpractice. The defense has the same burden. They have got to put evidence in to prove their theory of the case and if it's out there and they don't use it, Jane, they could be slapped for ineffective assistance of counsel.

It's not painting him as a monster. You're using his own words. You're using reasons that would explain her self-defense claim I was afraid of this man.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We've been also talking about the eerie parallels between Jodi Arias and Casey Anthony. Tomorrow on the show we're going to go deeper into those chilling similarities and we're going to show you some clips from the brand new Lifetime movie that airs this weekend about Casey Anthony starring Rob Lowe as the prosecutor, Jeff Ashton. And I'm told that our show is all over that Lifetime movie.

And so join us tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. We're going to get into that and more on the other side.


ARIAS: I am not some jealous (inaudible) maybe a sense of insecurity.

FLORES: A little more than a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) with a heartbeat to you.

ARIAS: We didn't date per se. We just hung out.

FLORES: It's obvious you guys are having sex.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overly affectionate in front of a bunch of other people. He just kind of waving his -- like a gnat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems kind of childish because she would say things like I don't know what I'll do if I can't have him. Or, you know, he would be such a great father to my children.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why did Jodi Arias become obsessed with Travis Alexander in particular? What is it about -- what was it about Travis? What was it about Jodi Arias? Why him? And on the other side, we're going to analyze that with a psychologist.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have photographs indicating that Miss Arias was a welcome guest in the home after 5:00 that afternoon. We know that something changed at that point in time. That is depicted on those cameras.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Jeff Gardere, why do you think Jodi Arias became obsessed with Travis Alexander in particular that person?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think he was certainly the flavor of the month -- don't use your imagination on that. But certainly this is a young woman who has a borderline personality, that love/hate picture we see all the time; a dependent personality where that idea without you, I'm nothing.

And I think what the defense is going to try to show was this woman had psychological vulnerabilities where she became obsessed with this individual. And if nothing else, that very unstable personality at the end of the day is showing some sort of a mental illness and therefore, they're going to try to get her out of getting a death penalty, if nothing else.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that people become obsessed with somebody else when they have a quality that they themselves desire but they don't want to either do the work or don't feel they're capable of having that. So they eroticize that desire and they become obsessed. They develop a crush on the person whose qualities they desire.

And Jodi Arias wanted to be a success. She wanted to be the center of attention. She wanted to be that charismatic person that everybody's drawn to. And that's exactly what Travis Alexander was. He was a charismatic person. He was a motivational speaker and she wanted that.

And that's my analysis, but what do I know?

Lisa, Canada -- your question quickly.

LISA, CANADA (via telephone): Well, thank you, Jane. I've heard over the weeks about how Jodi has defended herself from Travis. However, if she has defended herself, why did he have many stabs in his back? 10 to 12 stabs I've heard.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question on the other side of the break, we're going to ask our four legal panelists, does Jodi Arias have to take the stand to tell this story, to sell this story of self-defense?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's her foot. And this is Mr. Alexander.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With regard to that, ever seen any of these pants?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't recall seeing them, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She confided in you about the relationship, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But she never confided in you that she killed him, did she?




VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will Jodi have to take the stand if she has any hope of selling her argument of self-defense, starting with former prosecutor Wendy Murphy?

MURPHY: Self-defense only works if there's actual evidence that you were fearful for your life at the time you committed the crime. She was the only one there. So, look, there's a constitutional right to put on a defense. The risk here is there's no constitutional right to lie. There's a constitutional right to remain silent and put on a defense but you can't lie.

She faces a lot of trouble if she gets up and again tells a fake story. She will be cross-examined right into the mud. The prosecution will grind her down with all past lies. Yes, she can and she should because there is no other evidence. But that doesn't mean it's going to work.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Brian Silber, 20 seconds.

SILBER: Absolutely. If they're going to rely on the battered girlfriend, so to speak, defense, she has to explain all the components of their relationship that drove her to the breaking point. And when we talk about self-defense, it may be the kind of situation where she -- he drove her all the way to that ledge and then over it.

So absolutely, she's going to have to take the stand, tell her story and explain her state of mind and why she was thinking the way she was in those moments.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey Honowitz.

HONOWITZ: Yes, she has to take the stand. It's never going to work they're going to make mince meat out of her. And sticks and stones, she can say whatever she wants and call you names, it doesn't give you a right to slit someone's throat and stab him 29 times. So good luck but she's going to have to take the stand if she wants to carry through with this charade.

VELEZ-MITCHELL:L Holly Hughes, 15 seconds.

HUGHES: I disagree with everybody on the panel. I don't think they're going to put her on the stand. They can't risk it. They're going to try and use an expert. And the fact that they've already elicited on cross examination that she confessed now they're going to explain it away with a domestic violence expert. They can't risk putting her up. We all thought that in Casey Anthony and we swore she would have to take the stand. Guess what, she didn't. And she walked.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You never can predict what a defendant will do or a jury for that matter.

Nancy next.



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Jodi Arias Prosecution Rests

Aired January 17, 2013 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet up on a work trip in Vegas and they fall hard. But when the flame burns out, they break up. She then moves 300 miles to try and get back together, to pursue him, even converting to Mormonism.

But then 30-year-old Travis Alexander found slumped over dead in the shower of his five-bedroom home, shot, stabbed 29 times, violence so brutal, it resembles a mob hit.

And just hours after Arias stabs Travis to death there in the shower, she has sex contact with a brand-new boyfriend, literally, hopping on top of him while Travis`s body decomposing in a damp shower stall.

Testimony reveals 27-year-old Arias has wild sex with Travis all day long, even photographing the sex, but then just minutes after the sex, slashes his throat ear to ear.

Bombshell tonight: Is the jury siding with Jodi Arias as the prosecution rests its case?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am listening. I am listening.

ARIAS: It`s hurting my reputation. It`s casting me in a bad light. It seems (INAUDIBLE) white Americans. And they`re not mafia or anything.

Travis is screaming the whole time. He wasn`t screaming like a girl. He was, like, shocked. I ran! I ran into the closet. I think I got knocked out, but I don`t think I was out long.

Such a blur. I chicken out like a little bitch!


ARIAS: That looks like me.


ARIAS: That is not my foot!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t believe you.

ARIAS: Pigtails? (INAUDIBLE) There`s a morbid curiosity. How many times was Travis stabbed?

I`m all for the 10 Commandments, Thou shalt not kill.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. Is the jury siding with Jodi Arias? And the prosecution rests. We are live and taking your calls. We are all at the courthouse.

Straight to Beth Karas, legal correspondent, "In Session." She`s been in the courtroom all day.

Well, the state has rested its case. And you know, I don`t really take to it too kindly when defense attorneys talk on and on and on about overkill, overkill. Well, you cannot accuse the prosecution in this case of overkill.

What`s stunning me right now, though, Beth Karas, not so much that the state has rested, but the questions that the jury is asking. Hit me.

BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": OK. First of all, Nancy, I entirely agree with you that Juan Martinez, the sole prosecutor in this case, did not overtry this case. Nobody can criticize him for that. He put on what he thinks he needed for premeditated murder, 20 witnesses, nine days.

Now, the questions you`re talking about from the jury came to Detective Flores, the lead detective, yesterday, eight questions asking about whether they checked out the roommates, and did their alibis check out, did they find the gun and the knife, any knife sets in the house, did they have a knife missing, you know, seemed to be questioning the investigation. Why didn`t they do a comparison of fibers from these furry sandals that Travis Alexander had and tassels on the pillows? And some of these questions had already been answered in the evidence earlier in the case.

GRACE: OK, really trying to get at those particular questions, Beth. They`re very disturbing to seasoned trial veterans like myself and all of the lawyers, including you, Beth, on the panel.

Bonnie Druker, exactly what were the questions the jury asked, questions about the roommates, Travis Alexander`s roommates? Have you checked out their alibis? Were they investigated? Did you ever find the murder weapon? And the translation to that is, How do I know that it was Jodi Arias`s grandfather`s .25? Why couldn`t it belong to one of the roommates? A lot of very disturbing questions.

Hold on. This is what I don`t want to happen! Roll it, Drew.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: State of Florida versus Casey Marie Anthony. As to case number 2008, CF 15606-0, as to the charge of first degree murder, verdict as to count 1, we the jury find the defendant not guilty. So say we all. Dated at Orlando, Orange County, Florida, on this 5th day of July, 2011.

GRACE: The tot mom jury renders a verdict of not guilty. The defense team promptly leaves the courthouse and goes to toast champagne in front of a window at a local bar. Let me just say the devil is dancing tonight!


GRACE: Out to you, Matt Zarrell. I want to go with a fine-toothed comb, you and Bonnie -- first with you, Matt -- some of the questions that were asked by this jury.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: OK, Nancy. I`ll give you word for word because a lot of the focus is on the roommates. Here`s one question. "When you interviewed the roommates, was there any concern about Travis`s absence?" This was a question to Detective Flores, the lead detective. He said...

GRACE: Wa-wait, wa-wait! (INAUDIBLE) there. When you interviewed the roommates, were they concerned about his absence? Is that correct?


GRACE: And what was the response?

ZARRELL: He said, no, the roommates believed that Travis was in Mexico already. They didn`t know his schedule.

GRACE: OK, continue.

ZARRELL: The next question was, What about the alibi of the roommates? Detective Flores said one was working, the other was staying with his girlfriend at the girlfriend`s parents` home. They also asked, Was anyone else living in the house?

GRACE: Wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Alibi of the roommates -- one working, the other was staying with his girlfriend at her parents` home.

Bonnie Druker, did that cover all the roommates? Were there -- was it just Travis and two other roommates?

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, that covered all the roommates, Nancy. Some other of the questions are, Any knives missing? There were no knives missing. Was a gun found? No gun found. They actually wanted to know if Travis Alexander`s old Beamer was checked, and that old Beamer was not checked, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, let me go through those again. Were there any knives missing? Flores`s response was, No, there were no knives missing. I`m going to have to go to the lawyers to get an interpretation on that one.

Was the gun used to kill Travis found in Arias`s possession? No. I know where this is going. What`s after that? Roll it, Drew. What was the next question? Why were the fibers found at the scene not sent out to compare them?

OK, Beth, what are they talking about that? Why were the fibers found at the scene not sent out to compare them?

KARAS: Well, it was particular fibers. The question had said specifically fibers on these little furry sandals, flip-flops which were in the middle of the master bedroom floor, and fibers from throw pillows, which they had little tassels on them. And there were some tassels loose, and it looked like some had blood on them. But the defense was trying to say that he was tying her up with rope, having sex with her earlier in the day. But these are little tiny pieces that are consistent with tassels. Anyway, the answer was, Not necessary.

It sounds like some of these jurors are watching too much "CSI" or someone has a law enforcement background or they`re not listening to the background because some of these questions had already been answered.

GRACE: Out to Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, covering the case every single day. Alexis, I`m very, very concerned about the questions this jury is asking. It sounds as if they`re siding with Arias.

Didn`t they hear in opening statements by the defense that their defense is self-defense? That means that they admit -- the defense admits Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander. What am I missing?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: You`re not missing anything, but it sounds like the jury might be missing something. The thing that they`re looking for is perhaps another suspect. Jodi has admitted -- her defense has admitted she did it. So these questions are a little ridiculous.

One thing that maybe it could possibly be is that there are only a few jurors that think this, so the rest of them got together and said, OK, you think that? Fine. We`re going to go back to this detective. We`re going to ask him. We`re going to have him prove again what he said, and that maybe the majority is doing this for just a couple of the minority jurors who were not listening to the evidence at all.

GRACE: You know, I`m hoping that you are right. And that could very well be.

Let me go back to you, Bonnie Druker. How are the questions asked? Now, when I was practicing law, the jury could ask questions. And I noticed that in some jurisdictions, the jurors will have to write it down, the foreperson, if they`ve even got one yet. But they will pass it to the bailiff. The bailiff will give it to the judge. The judge, if it`s not objectionable, like asking for hearsay or some other objection, will then ask the question.

How are -- explain to the viewers how this is working in the Arias trial.

DRUKER: Yes, I mean, the jurors are writing it down, giving it to the bailiff. The bailiff is giving it to the judge, and the judge is bringing out the questions.

What`s really interesting to note, Nancy, is we`ve -- you know, we`ve been here every single day. And usually, there`s maybe one question, two questions. But this was, like, eight or nine questions, which is pretty amazing if you think about it.

GRACE: I mean, when you look at these questions -- Did you check out the roommates` alibi -- I guess Flores nearly did a backflip.

We are taking your calls. Out to Sharon in North Carolina. Hi, Sharon. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. I have a question in that, especially if I was a juror, I would want to know, based on the fact of the friends that have come in of Travis`s that have said that he told them he was afraid of Jodi, that he was worried that something might happen to him, that she was stalking him -- I would have concerns in the fact that he let her in his house. She was there for 15-some-odd hours. They slept. They had sex. They took pictures. Was he afraid of her?

GRACE: You know, that`s an interesting question. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers," you know, many a true word is spoken in jest. And you`ve got a lot now, I would say half a dozen of Travis`s friends, even father figures to him, stating that it was brought up more than once -- maybe in a joking way, maybe in a serious way -- that he was actually afraid of Jodi Arias, afraid to break up with Jodi Arias.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes, Nancy, it`s true. But you and I know there are no perfect victims, right? There is a possibility that he was afraid of her, but then he suspended his judgment because she seduced him with sex. You can have poor judgment and be the victim of homicide.

And the fact that this keeps being brought up again and again means to me that the public doesn`t understand what it means to be a victim. When you are a victim, you lose your ability to have perspective, to protect yourself, to see how malicious another person can be. Victims open their doors to perpetrators. That`s what it means to be a victim!

So I think that the prosecution should have put on an expert who talks about battered wife syndrome, battered boyfriend syndrome, stalking victims, people in our society who are victimized again and again because they have grown up in environments where they did not learn self- protection. And we know that that was true of the victim in this case. He had an impoverished background.

GRACE: Well, I`m just -- Bethany, I`m just bowled over, Dr. Bethany, that the jury is now asking, Well, did you check out the alibis of the roommates? Hello? In the defense opening...

MARSHALL: Nancy...

GRACE: In the defense opening, Bethany, they tell the jury, we did it. We did it. But we did it in self-defense.

MARSHALL: Nancy...

GRACE: So why are they asking this?

MARSHALL: They are not listening! They have a certain paradigm in their mind, and the paradigm is that a beautiful woman could not have done this. It must have been the other males in the household. And they are sticking to that dogmatic belief system.

GRACE: Well, let`s just see if they heard something different than we did. Take a listen to Jodi Arias herself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no way anyone else could have left your palm print in blood on that wall. No way. Get that through your head.

ARIAS: If I was going to ever try to kill somebody, I would use gloves. I have plenty of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody said you were -- you know, you had planned this out perfectly. Maybe you were going there to just talk to him, have a good time with him. Something got out of hand.




ARIAS: How many times was Travis stabbed?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than I want to remember. And I`m not going to sit here and show you pictures of him after the fact. I don`t do that. That`s not how I work. That is not for me to do. But eventually, those photos will come out. Jodi...


GRACE: Man, she`s convincing. She is convincing. And as I look at her crying and sobbing, I got to remind myself of Travis Alexander sliced from ear to ear.

And tonight, we get an inkling that the jury is siding with Jodi Arias, that they are actually considering that his roommates killed him? They have been asking questions about, Do the roommates have alibis? Did you really check out the alibis? Did you find the weapon on her? In other words, How do you know it was her grandfather`s .25?

Hello? Listen to this. I knew I heard it. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander. There is no question about it. The million-dollar question is, what would have forced her to do it? And throughout this trial, you will hear that Jodi was indeed forced.


GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Kirby Clements, defense attorney, Atlanta, Mickey Sherman, defense attorney and author out of New York.

Mickey Sherman, it`s like "Alice in Wonderland." Everything`s upside- down. The jury`s questions, to a fault, almost every one of them, were defense-leaning. They were all questioning the detective`s work, the police work.

Did you find the weapon? Why didn`t you find the weapon? How do you know -- suggesting how do you know it was the grandfather`s stolen weapon? Why didn`t you send off this fiber? Have you looked an the roommates` alibis?

There`s more I haven`t gotten to yet, Mickey. This is not going well, I`m telling you!

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, "well" is whatever the jury decides. But there`s two things going on here, Nancy, you got to understand. In the post-O.J. Simpson criminal justice world, there`s an inherent distrust by the jurors of many, many witnesses, whether they be law enforcement or not.

And then you add to that what Beth Karas mentioned before, which is an enormous issue here, and that`s the "CSI" effect. The best shows, the most watched shows these days are "CSI-NCIS," "Law & Order." Everyone knows every episode.

What the juries do often is forget about what the lawyers say, president, defense attorneys, and say, We`re going to crack this case because we know everything about NCIS.

GRACE: We`re going to crack this case. You know, Mickey?

SHERMAN: It`s true.

GRACE: I think you`re right. What about it, Kirby?

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think he`s absolutely 100 percent right that jurors sometimes want to go off on their own investigation. They want to second guess the police.

Even when the defense, as in this case, has actually said, We killed him, which is astonishing to me -- I mean, independent of my questions of the defense. But when the defendant admits to killing them and the jury still asks questions like this, I think, you know, the prosecution should be alarmed and the defense should be -- you know, they should feel pretty good right now.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want, I can show you some pictures of him. Do you want to see pictures of him?

ARIAS: Part of me does and part of me doesn`t!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why, because you don`t want to remember?

ARIAS: No! I just...


ARIAS: There`s a morbid curiosity.


ARIAS: I wanted to know how he died!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander. There is no question about it. The million-dollar question is, What would have forced her to do it? And throughout this trial...


GRACE: Even in the wake of the defense attorney admitting up front in opening statements, somehow members of this jury seemingly are siding with Jodi Arias and casting doubt on the roommates of Travis Alexander.

We are taking your calls. To Carole, Illinois. Hi, Carole. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. Since Jodi has clearly demonstrated what she`s capable of, why would anyone believe that she was afraid of Travis Alexander?

And also, why would anyone believe those crocodile tears? She`s crying for herself because she knows the mess that she`s gotten herself into. She`s not crying from remorse, not from remorse. Do you think so? Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Carole in Illinois -- Carole in Illinois, thank you for calling. And I`m going to throw that question to someone that knows Jodi Arias better than all of us, Patrick Henry, former colleague of Jodi Arias, used to carpool with her, also knew Travis Alexander. Patrick, thank you for being with us.

PATRICK HENRY, FORMER COLLEAGUE OF JODI ARIAS (via telephone): Hey, thanks very much, Nancy.

GRACE: Patrick, what do you make of what`s happening in court today?

HENRY: Oh, I don`t know if I can say it on air, but it`s a bunch of crock. I believe that she`s -- she`s faking it all the way through. And she`s just trying to lean upon the sympathy of people that don`t think anymore.

GRACE: Let me ask you a question. You were a former colleague with Arias. Explain to me, what do you know of her? What is her disposition?

HENRY: Well, Nancy, really, to be honest with you, I would travel with her two to three times a week, an hour-and-a-half drive. Every once in a while, we would all carpool.

And frankly, I -- after driving about 200 or 300 miles a day, I really don`t like driving at night. So whenever you can get someone else to drive, hey, let them drive.

And there would be several of us driving together, me, my daughter, and other folks, and I really didn`t know very, very much about her. Matter of fact, the one time she raised that question, she said, If anyone ever asks you anything about me, tell them you know nothing.

I said, Jodi, I don`t know anything. All I know is you have a sister up in Redding. That`s all I know about you. And so she was really, really -- she was, Oh, oh, that`s good. And I was, like -- and it was so nonchalant. And I never really thought nothing of it because, you know, we`re just traveling back and forth an hour-and-a-half going, an hour-and- a-half coming...



ARIAS: Can I see the pictures?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have your blood at the scene. Your hair with blood at the scene. Your left palm print at the scene, in blood. What`s going on there?

ARIAS: Well, I can explain the blood and the hair. I don`t know about my left palm print.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can you explain the blood and the hair?

ARIAS: Well, because I used to bathe Napoleon all the time and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You hadn`t been there since April. Right?

ARIAS: Uh-huh. Well --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s had the house cleaned several times since then. And this hair was not just a hair. You know, from the shower or something. This hair was stuck with blood, and obviously had blood on it at the time it got stuck where it ended up.


NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: In a stunning turn of events, seemingly, the jury is siding with Jodi Arias. Questioning the police investigation, questioning the alibis of Travis Alexander`s roommates. Questioning whether the gun that killed Travis Alexander that shot him in the face was Jodi`s grandparents` weapon. Where did the knife come from? Could it have been somebody else`s weapon?

A series of questions that has got to have stopped the prosecution in its tracks.

Joining us right now, a long-time friend of Jodi Arias. They used to carpool with her. Also friends with Travis Alexander. Patrick Henry is with us.

Mr. Henry, you described a scenario that occurred about two months prior to Travis` murder where a group of people were talking together about the breakup of Travis and Jodi Alexander. What happened?

PATRICK HENRY, FRIEND AND FORMER COLLEAGUE OF JODI ARIAS: Well, in that conversation, we were all discussing and someone had brought up, I wonder what happened to all of Jodi`s ex-boyfriends? And one young lady said, they`re probably buried in the desert somewhere. And that kind of shocked me after thinking about what had happened to him afterwards.

GRACE: That was pretty profound.


GRACE: That someone that knew both of them says, wow, I wonder what happened to all her other old boyfriends and the answer is yes, they`re probably all buried in the desert. Ha, ha, ha. You know, it`s amazing to me how many people commented on I bet she kills Travis if he breaks up, I bet she`s killed other boyfriends. And in fact she did.

After the breakup, what did she have to say to you about it?

HENRY: Well, basically, we would meet in passing and all she said, oh, me and Travis, we`re not seeing each other. And I was like oh, OK, cool. You know, and left it at that. But I mean, prior to that, you know, as we would drive all the time because she had our carpooling stopped because she moved to Arizona to be close to him. But then we would also come back together in our team events and I ran into her a couple of times. Oh, me and Travis are no longer together. I was like, oh, great. And that was it. Pretty much it.

GRACE: What do you think happened between Arias and Travis Alexander?

HENRY: Wow. I believe that she was bitter because of the fact that Travis didn`t want her anymore. That because this woman would text and drive at the same time. Anytime a text came through, she was constantly texting Travis or constantly trying to call him, while we were driving, and it was -- she`s driving. So she`s driving about 60, 70 miles an hour. And I was kind of like, hey, you know what? Watch the road, you know?

But she was in love with Travis. She didn`t want anyone else to have him, matter of fact, whenever people were talking, she always wanted to know what was going on when Travis was talking to other people. So she`d always kind of scurry over there to hear what`s going on.

GRACE: What do you make of the defense claiming that Travis Alexander of actually hurt Jodi Arias?

HENRY: For all those people that know Travis Alexander, we know he`s a kind good hearted young man that came from a long ways. I kind of looked up to him even though he was younger than me. He came a long ways and I`m sure a very short period of time. And he`s helped out so many people. And he has never ever, ever, from all the people that I know and the -- and the circles, and I`m talking tens of thousands of people had anything negative ever to say about Travis.

GRACE: With me is Patrick Henry, also taking your calls.

Back to you, Beth Karas, the stunning turn of events in court where the jury is questioning the roommates` alibis. Especially, aside from the roommates, the questions about the knife and the .25 caliber. What were their questions there? You know where that`s going, Beth.

BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Right. You know, maybe they were wondering, hmm, could they -- could one of the roommates have helped her? Maybe one of the roommates liked her and helped her. But really their alibis checked out. And the puzzle to a lot of us was, how did they live in that house with a body decomposing because the friend said as soon as they walked in the front door downstairs, they could smell the decomposition.

They didn`t know what it was. Well, you know, one of the roommates told me, this is Zack Billings, that he wasn`t even there until the day the body was found and he did notice it that day because he had been house sitting for his girlfriend now wife`s parents with her. The other roommate -- I never talked to Enrique Cortez. He was at work the day of the killing, but, you know, they stayed in their rooms.

Travis was in the back of the master bedroom, in the bathroom, with the door locked. So -- but it is a little odd they didn`t smell it.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Lilly in California, hi, dear. What`s your question?

LILLY, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy. Thank you so much for taking my call. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

LILLY: This has not been brought up but I noticed that there are two photos of the sink area where the blood is. One of them has the tape measure. And one does not. I can swear that if you look in the faucet, the reflection, there is a woman there. I can almost put my life on it that that is Jodi taking a picture of herself before the tape measure is on it.

Look in -- look in the faucet there. There is a distinct silhouette right there and I could swear that that is Jodi. I know she took that as a trophy before the investigators came.

GRACE: Well, you`re absolutely right.

Beth Karas, what about it?

KARAS: Well, it turns out -- these are crime scene photos. This was not a photo that was recovered from the camera found in the washing machine. And while you know it`s a good investigation, that`s somebody from the police department in the mirror. It may look like Jodi, but it`s not.

GRACE: OK, Beth. I just dear nearly ran from the photo as if it were a monster because the caller is absolutely right. Man, what a sign. Other questions being asked.

I want to go out to Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining me out of Philadelphia tonight.

Dr. Manion, weigh in on what your theory is on the case.

DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, I think the prosecution has done a good job. They haven`t overprosecuted unlike the Casey Anthony case which I think was overprosecuted.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know be about that. Putting up a lot of witnesses that don`t hit the mark aren`t necessarily putting up too many witnesses. And I`ve never -- you know, you got one swing at the ball, Dr. Manion. One.

MANION: I understand.

GRACE: If there`s an acquittal, you don`t get a do-over. This is -- this is it. I always advocated as a prosecutor, you put everything in you can possibly put in. And then you don`t have any regrets.

MANION: Well, I think the jury feels pressure, too, because it is a death penalty state and they want to make sure if they`re going to render a death penalty verdict that they explore every possible opportunity. And you`re right. "NCIS" has so many shows where you think one thing is going on and because of some type of fancy trace evidence or forensic evidence or some autopsy evidence --

GRACE: Or kooky juror.


MANION: The whole case has turned around. So I guess that`s why they`re asking those questions. I agree with the earlier commentators.

GRACE: Well, so what is your theory?

MANION: But right now --

GRACE: How do you think it went down, Doctor?

MANION: I saw a photograph of him where he was described as being annoyed in the shower. And I think this was, you know, after they had many hours of sex and I think he may have said, you know, why don`t you leave? And he`s taking -- she`s taking pictures of him and perhaps she -- he didn`t like that and pushed her away or knocked the camera down and the next thing you know she exploded. So you know, hell hath no fury. So she --



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know which pictures to show you. How about that one? You remember him?

ARIAS: Yes. Is he naked? In the shower?


ARIAS: Travis would never go for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Soon after you and him had sex on his bed.

ARIAS: It couldn`t have been too soon after.


ARIAS: The last time we had sex in his bed was in April.


GRACE: Jodi Arias caught on tape and today a stunning turn of events as the jurors seemingly side with Arias` camp.

Back out to you, Matt Zarrell. We also note that they questioned the fingerprint expert. They asked, why was the towel not tested for bleach? Was there a wrist or neck strap on the camera in the washing machine? A lot of more questions to the fingerprint expert. Why?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Well, Nancy, I don`t know where the jury is going with this because in addition to the fingerprint expert, they also asked numerous questions for Ryan Burns including time stamps on his text messages between him and Jodi Arias.

GRACE: Let`s go back to the question that I was referring to, the question regarding the fingerprint expert.

Out to you, Marc Harrold, former police officer, attorney and author of "Observations of White Noise."

Marc, they are questioning the techniques and what the fingerprint expert did. That`s not good.

MARC HARROLD, FORMER OFFICER, ATLANTA PD, ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "OBSERVATIONS OF WHITE NOISE": It`s not good at all. You know, the prosecution must just be baffled. This should be about her affirmative defense and they`ve got this big long break until January 29th to give whichever juror -- a couple of jurors who were asking these questions to think about this.

I think everybody is right. I think that they think they know something about these procedures. They think they know something about fingerprint, how to cover evidence. These questions baffled me. They came out of nowhere. And I`m really worried about that long break because -- what`s the 29th that the trial resumes. That gives these jurors a lot of time to think about stuff and really come up with alternate theories that just aren`t relevant.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Kirby Clements, Mickey Sherman. Breaks in a trial only help the defense. They really do because now, by the time they come back, the state`s evidence is not going to be fresh in their minds, Mickey.

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": And they won`t be as shocked as they were from the photos and the videos. But you know what, if the worst thing you can say about these jurors is that they`re asking too many questions, that is not a bad thing in my book. I got to tell you. A woman`s life is at stake.

GRACE: No, Mickey, I`m not concerned about asking a lot of questions. And yes, a life is at stake. It`s Travis Alexander`s life. All right?

SHERMAN: He`s not on trial. She is.

GRACE: Yes, but this is about his life. And no, I don`t mind a lot of questions but when they are all suggesting that the jury is not buying anything that the state has told them when right out front, the defense says, my client killed him.

I mean, Kirby, they go on to say, was the knife used in this crime recovered at the scene? What surfaces did you print? Why didn`t you print -- fingerprint all the surfaces? Very disturbing. They obviously are finding fault in what the state did.

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Nancy, I -- and not that I want to side with the state in this instance but I will have to say that those are disturbing questions, but you know what? At the end of the day, the defense is going to have to get over the hurdle of the fact that this man was shot and this man was stabbed and they have nobody else that they`re going to blame for this.

So at the end of the day, despite these questions that you have, I am loath to say as a defense attorney that I think the jury is pretty much going to end up saying all of these questions didn`t matter. They probably got --

GRACE: I don`t see it with these questions. I mean, they`re asking, where was the knife? Where was the murder weapon? Why didn`t you recover the knife? This is not looking good. The jury seemingly siding with Jodi Arias.


GRACE: We have been poring through literally thousands of pages of documents and have hit upon a very disturbing e-mail that I shared with Bethany Marshall and Alexis Tereszcuk. This is an e-mail we believe was sent by Jodi Arias to a woman that Travis Alexander was dating.

I`m going to let you read it, Alexis. Go ahead.

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: "You are a shameful whore. Your heavenly father must be deeply ashamed of the whoredoms you`ve committed with that insidious man. If you let him stay in your bed one more time or even sleep under the same roof as him, you will be giving the appearance of evil. You are driving away the Holy Ghost, and you are wasting your time. You are also compromising your salvation and breaking your baptismal covenants. Of all the commandments to break, committing acts of whoredom is one of the most displeasing in the eyes of the Lord.

"You cannot be ashamed enough of yourself. You are filthy and you need to repent and become clean in the eyes of God. Think about your future husband and how you disrespect not only your respect but him as well as the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Is that what your want for yourself? Your future, your salvation, and your posterity is resting on your choices and actions."

GRACE: OK, OK, I say we get the gist. OK. Now, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter,

Let me see Alexis and Dr. Bethany, please.

Alexis, we have to consider the source here, because this is written by a woman who I`ve had -- I`ve got about 38, 39 close-up photos of her behind. I mean, close up. Close up. I can`t really say on the air. I went to -- let`s see, one, two, three, four, five, six years of law school, so I could look at a close-up of Jodi Arias` -- anyway, and she`s writing this e-mail, thoughts to another woman about how the other woman is the big whore.

TERESZCUK: Exactly, and she`s using all these religious terms for a religion that she only joined because she wanted to impress Travis.

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait.

TERESZCUK: Where she`s coming with these?

GRACE: Brett, can you show me our line producer right now, please? Let me see the control room cam. Because tonight we have in senior producer, Drew Eiden, and the moment we started talking about this, Drew, you decided to show the naked shots of Jodi Arias.

Just wondering why. Just -- yes. OK. Thanks, Drew.

Dr. Bethany Marshall, what about this e-mail? She`s sending this e- mail to some poor girl that has gone out a couple of times with Travis Alexander.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, you know, Freud called this the moral defense. That`s when you invoke morality to have control over another person, to shame, coerce, punish, and bend them to your will. And remember, she did it because this was a faith-based community of do-gooders, and so she did the worst thing she could to this other person, was having power over her by shaming her.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Specialist Joseph Johnson, 24, Flint, Michigan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action Badge, a field medic volunteered for every mission. Parents Dennis and Terry, sister Jenny.

Joseph Johnson. American hero.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you took pictures of him in the shower just before he died.

ARIAS: I don`t think he would allow that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the camera actually took a couple of photos by accident during the time he was being killed.

ARIAS: Really?


GRACE: Oh, really? Now what`s so intense about this is that the defense admits in opening statements that she killed Travis Alexander, so everything you`re seeing is a lie. And she is so good at it.

Out to the lines, Linda, Texas. Hi, Linda, what`s your question?

LINDA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Well, I`ll play the 13th juror. I`m thinking of her MySpace page, the candle, the witchcraft and a sacrifice, and that there is another person in the inner circle involved, and that`s going -- that would be my reasonable doubt.

GRACE: Wait, what`s your reasonable doubt?

LINDA: Her practicing witchcraft with that candle and her MySpace, and her -- even though she was lying during her interrogation, I think some of it may be true about another person being there with her. And I think that it was a sacrifice.

GRACE: You think that it was a --

LINDA: A ritual sacrifice.

GRACE: Wicca witch-type, like devil worship sacrifice?

LINDA: Yes. Yes.

GRACE: OK. Well, I can only say thank God in heaven that you`re not on the jury. OK. Thankfully this jury does not know about her witch MySpace posting.

OK, I`m scared.


  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2013, 08:44:47 PM »

The similarities of Jodi and Casey are amazing.  Both during interrogations said they did not kill the victim, they both ran to men, they can lie out of both sides of their mouths and 'seem' very convincing they are telling the truth.  Oh, and they both talked and talked with a lot of unuseful details during their interrogations like the more details and information they gave the  more the police would believe them.  Wow.
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« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2013, 09:04:24 PM »

The similarities of Jodi and Casey are amazing.  Both during interrogations said they did not kill the victim, they both ran to men, they can lie out of both sides of their mouths and 'seem' very convincing they are telling the truth.  Oh, and they both talked and talked with a lot of unuseful details during their interrogations like the more details and information they gave the  more the police would believe them.  Wow.

Hi bikerbev!   
Yep.  Yep.  And yep again.   

  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #76 on: January 20, 2013, 05:09:59 PM »
Jodi Arias Travis Alexander Murder Trial Day 8: Sex, Lies and Duct Tape Causing Jury Doubt
January 17, 2013

« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 05:11:45 PM by MuffyBee » Logged

  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #77 on: January 20, 2013, 05:27:19 PM »
Picture Perfect: The trial of Jodi Arias
January 19, 2013

Accused killer Jodi Arias told all to "48 Hours" ... now her words are evidence in her life-or-death trial. Maureen Maher reports.
Video at Link

  " Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."  - Daniel Moynihan
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« Reply #78 on: January 20, 2013, 11:30:35 PM »

I can't believe that she moved the body for so many places in the house by herself.
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« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2013, 05:53:48 PM »

I can't believe that she moved the body for so many places in the house by herself.


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