Jodi Arias: Psycho Killer?
; Mental Illness & AddictionAired February 19, 2013 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Day seven. Jodi Arias on the stand. What we`ve waited years to hear. She details the minutes before she killed Travis Alexander.
JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: I just stood in the doorway looking at him for a minute. He wanted to tie me up.
PINSKY: And vicious texts between Jodi Arias and Travis.
ARIAS: I`m asking you to stop doing it before I start seeking revenge.
PINSKY: Plus, my exclusive with the man who delivered Travis Alexander`s eulogy. What did Jodi want from him after the service?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
But, first, the Jodi Arias trial.
I`m joined by co-host Laura Baron. Also, joining us, former prosecutor and author of "Guilt by Degrees", Marcia Clark; psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
Jodi left us with a cliffhanger at the end of the day. They tediously and graphically, Laura, they`ve been describing a sort of sex-filled day with Travis on the very day she killed him.
And again, I must issue a warning to people out there. This is graphic material.
Are you ready, Laura?
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: Yes, it got dirty.
PINSKY: Let`s watch.
BARON: All right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it Mr. Alexander`s preference that your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) going to be hairless?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wanted to tie you up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he tied you up, are you clothed at all?
ARIAS: No. He wanted to give me oral sex.
He wanted to get a picture of us having sex without somebody holding the camera. So he told me to put it on the timer. He wanted to take them, review them and then delete them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You described it earlier as this plain old vanilla sex, but it was more than that, wasn`t it, because you were videotaping it, right?
ARIAS: Yes, I guess so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you, at this point in time, fearing that he`s going to be physically aggressive with you?
ARIAS: He spun me around and bent me over the desk and pressed up against me and then started pulling my hands down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you submit to this sexual intercourse as an alternative to his wrath or anger? Is that right?
ARIAS: That would be accurate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But yet she is describing calmly behaviors that were seemingly consensual and not particularly disturbing.
As we said, minutes before she killed this guy, they`re going to have to fill in with some pretty, I don`t know, something that helps us understand.
Shanna Hogan, true crime journalist, and author of the forthcoming book, "Picture Perfect." She has been in the courtroom every day.
Shanna, naked pictures, sex video, 15 minutes before they leave us today in the courtroom. What does this all leading up to?
SHANNA HOGAN, CRIME JOURNALIST (via telephone): Oh, my gosh. It was extremely suspenseful today, extremely dramatic. We heard now what we`ve been waiting for, for two weeks, and some of us have been waiting for, for years, exactly what led her to Mesa, what led her inside that house, what their sexual happenings were that day, how they took those photos leading up to the shower where in the story, he has 15 minutes to live. So it was extremely dramatic.
PINSKY: We heard about texts from Travis to Jodi calling her a sociopath. We`re going to hear some of those coming up later in the show. But, Shanna, tell us about that whole text exchange, and I want to know what they thought they were doing with all of those.
HOGAN: I thought that was one of the most interesting parts of the case. I mean, what kind of murder trial do you have where the victim is basically calling the killer a sociopath? Throughout the time, I talked to his friends and family and that`s what he said to everyone, that she had very sociopathic tendencies, that she didn`t seem to have a lot of empathy, that she didn`t seem to care what could emotional about anyone but herself.
And today in court, we saw these exchanges they were having back and forth, and that many times, more than once he said, you know what, you`re a sociopath. Stay away from me.
PINSKY: And so, Marcia, I want to ask you. Is this again the defense sort of stepping on their own toes? She`s sort of -- he`s building the case that we`ve all been building about her, and he`s sort of waking up to this fact.
And, by the way, again to Marcia, 15 minutes left in this guy`s life and he hasn`t been behaving badly enough to have his head chopped off.
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Not that we could see, Drew. I really don`t -- I don`t see how this defense is helping her or serving her at all at this point. And I`ve been saying this for a while now that, you know, six days of all of this detailed minutia about their sex life and what he supposedly did to her and the ways in which he had done her wrong, I think it`s overkill. I think they have tipped to the point where you can turn the jury against her by making it too obvious that their vilifying the victim.
Look, the defense team vilifying the victim is not an unusual thing, very common, because if you can make the jury not care so much about the victim, then it`s much easier to acquit. But there are such a thing that --
BARON: Marcia, how about how meek? Marcia, how about how meek she is portraying herself? Do you think that the jury can even buy that?
CLARK: You know, no. I mean, that`s the point. For so long, I mean, at a certain point, the jury has to say, and, by the way, in my opinion, she has very flat affect. She`s not a very compelling witness. I`m not impressed that she`s very meek.
And now that we have texts saying, you`re a sociopath, from the victim, from Travis is more indicative --
CLARK: -- to me that she is somebody who has very little empathy. Yes.
PINSKY: And, Cheryl, you`re shaking your head vigorously. What don`t you comment here?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I think the fact he called her a sociopath so many times and he was so close to being murdered has got to make us think that he really had a sense that there was something very dark going on here. And I do agree with Marcia, I think that they do run the risk of making them look like they`re trying to vilify him and not really making people care more about her.
I`m wondering, Dr. Drew, do you think that her saying he`s up and he`s down, he`s mean and he`s nice might be connected at all to some of the personality things that we had talked about, about her seeing things in black and white and in a very big, stormy kind of way?
PINSKY: That`s right. I agree with you. And particularly when he wasn`t cooperating with her manipulations, with her view of the world, with how he is supposed to behave, and particularly when he tried to leave. That`s when he suddenly is perceived as rageful.
The other thing, Cheryl, it`s interesting to me, maybe you can comment on this, is that, the more she talks, I keep hearing more sympathy coming from women and more creep factor coming from men. What do you say about that?
ARUTT: Well, I think probably many women can identify with feeling like a guy is hot and cold or they`re not getting what they want or that some things are getting stormy, because women tend to think a lot about -- and maybe obsess a little bit more about relationships. But when we look at what happened following this particular lover`s ups and downs, this is very, very unusual, and I think the men are really thinking about what happened to poor Travis.
PINSKY: Yes, the men are thinking, oh, my God, this could have happened to me, she`s so creepy.
Laura, you wouldn`t be this way, I`m sure.
BARON: Well, thank you for the credit.
PINSKY: Shanna Hogan, thank you very much.
Next up, I`ve got an exclusive interview with a man who eulogized Travis Alexander at his memorial service -- there he is -- and then was actually approached by Jodi. What did she tell him there at the memorial? We`ll find out after the break.
Back after the break.
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ARIAS: We were in my bedroom. We were not on the bed, but we were standing next to it, and we were kissing, and I was in my church clothes, he was in his church clothes. He lifted up my skirt and he pulled down my underwear. I could feel an erection. He began to have anal sex with me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it pleasurable for you physically?
ARIAS: At that time, it was painful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host Laura Baron.
Jodi Arias shared that incredible story with the world last week, and there`s been more just difficult to listen to material.
BARON: Especially about her church clothes. Like that small detail I just found so strange.
PINSKY: You know, and she brought that up again today, and there was some objections by the prosecution. She`s clearly trying to make him out to be somehow more deviant by donning himself in the robes of the church that he had convinced her to be a part of and then doing horrible things to her that way.
I don`t buy it. I don`t buy it. And I think my next guest will agree with me.
Joining me Aaron Mortensen. He`s a close friend of Travis Alexander. He actually gave the eulogy of Travis` memorial service.
Aaron, what do you say to what I`m saying here?
AARON MORTENSEN, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: Well, I guess, I guess I kind of feel sad that it`s come to this. I mean, his character is trying to be shaped by people, and there are lots and lots of people, Dr. Drew, hundreds of people, men and women, who could sit right in front of you and your viewership like I`m doing tonight and tell you that Travis was a good person. He wasn`t a violent or angry person.
And so, I guess I`m surprised that this is the side that is being presented, because this isn`t the person that I know, and I don`t think who he really was.
PINSKY: All right. So, I`ve heard this from many of his friends.
So, let me ask you this. You give the eulogy at his memorial service. Jodi comes up to you I guess during or after -- this is the woman who had just killed your friend and she asks for a copy of the eulogy? Can you tell me about that?
MORTENSEN: That`s correct. I guess you can imagine how that would be an emotionally challenging evening for me, and he had been -- he had died a week before and the police had said that there were no people of interest at that time. And so, I gave this eulogy for Travis, talking about him as a person and what he meant to me and how he had made me a better person, and afterwards --
PINSKY: But then this woman came up to you, yes, and you now know -- in retrospect, you know she is the killer. What do you think about that exchange now?
MORTENSEN: Well, it seems - so she was tearful and she asked me for a copy of the pictures and the words that I said, and she was painting a picture of a friend in mourning. And I guess it just makes me think that she has talents as a manipulator. You know, at the time, I didn`t know, but now it makes me feel very vulnerable to the situation.
PINSKY: Thank you. That`s a very honest response.
Cheryl Arutt, Jodi attends the memorial, gives crocodile tears. Help us understand -- to me that`s a damning story of her character.
ARUTT: Absolutely, Dr. Drew.
Aaron, I`m so sorry for your loss, and that must have been such a difficult thing to give the eulogy for your friend. And to think that someone who had just murdered him could pretend, and really, it seems like the manipulation was really very much there about covering her tracks, about making people think that she was outside of that and felt bad about the loss.
It was really -- this is the thing that creeps out guys. This is the thing that makes guys think, oh, this could have been me, because she didn`t seem that dangerous. She didn`t seem capable of something like that, and yet now, in retrospect, doesn`t it look very different, very scary?
PINSKY: And, Marcia, I want to have you follow along with that, because I don`t deal with a lot of criminals. I deal with people who have emotional issues and may behave badly because they`re addicted or sick.
You see a lot of bad people, I`m sure, in your career. Help us make sense of her.
CLARK: Well, she`s your classic sociopath. And I`ve said it before to you, Drew, she`s really right down the line, along with all of the ones that I`ve seen and dealt with. It`s just a typical pattern.
But, beyond that, especially if this young man testifies, and I want to say I`m also very sorry for your loss. What a horrible experience. And what a terrible thing to look back and realize this woman is asking you for a copy of the eulogy and crying crocodile tears and she`s the murderer. I can`t imagine what that must be feeling like.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s really --
CLARK: But I must say this testimony -- this testimony is going to be --
PINSKY: Laura, go ahead.
BARON: This was clearly a passionate relationship. I mean, I obviously believe that there is a lot of B.S. going on with her. But I don`t know that her wanting a copy of the eulogy was not sincere. I think that there was a crazy love, but I think that there was an actual attachment, an obsessive attachment.
PINSKY: Well, you guys, Laura --
CLARK: Can I just jump in here? I don`t think it`s real.
PINSKY: Finish, Marcia, and then Cheryl. Marcia, go ahead.
CLARK: OK. Thanks, Drew. Sorry.
Laura, I disagree with that one, Laura, because I really think this was all manipulation. This was an act. It was a very good act.
I think she`s an adroit liar when you`re not hip to who she is and what she`s done.
PINSKY: We know that about her.
CLARK: But more importantly, if this man testifies before the jury, what they`re going to see is what a big liar she is. She`s an amazing liar. This is someone who can put on an act within hours of the murder and act, like, oh, cry crocodile tears. That`s got to be very compelling.
ARUTT: The creepiest thing about this is less about her wanting a copy of the eulogy, which is understandable, but that she can look in the eye the best friend of the man she just murdered and pose as another grieving friend. That`s the creepy part. That she could pull that off.
PINSKY: There you go.
But, Laura, I`ll tell you, you`re on to something, Laura, that she -- you know, I`ve characterized her as a love addict and sex addict. I think I`m wrong. I think it`s more pointed that she`s sort of a manipulator, sociopath spectrum and he`s just captured in her web and become obsessed with her and can`t get out.
Aaron Mortensen, thank you so much for being with us.
Next up, controversial witness, Gus Searcy, is back. I`m going to ask him why people dispute his account of what Jodi told him the morning after Travis died. And later, many of you want to know about what the patients think of their treatment on "Celebrity Rehab." So, we`re going to get those patients to speak out.
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ARIAS: He said, I`m going to tell all your friends and family, basically, about all the -- I can`t remember how he characterized it, but I think it was something like the psycho things that you`ve done. I don`t ever want to get another freaking text from you again or a call unless it`s an apology and a thank you for constantly having to take on your ever-ceasing problems. Not one freaking more.
I`m sick of your soap opera and your ways. You purposely try to ruin every day. It seems you`re getting good at it. You couldn`t get off your lazy butt, because that`s the sociopath I know so well, it freaking figures.
I want you to understand how evil I think you are. You are the worst thing that ever happened to me. It made me feel not good, I guess. It made me feel yucky.
You are a sociopath. You only cry for yourself. You have never cared about me and you have betrayed me worse than any example I could conjure. You are sick and you have scammed me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So it seems to me that Travis was sort of waking up to what he had gotten sucked into here. I love the fact that she, you know, uses the psycho term as though how dare he, yet everything we`ve heard about her were pretty psycho thing she did.
BARON: Yes, like sweetie, you just slashed the dude 28 times. That would ring psycho.
PINSKY: I`d say so. I`d say so.
PINSKY: And the question I`m asking is, did Jodi`s own defense deliver damaging testimony about her evil behavior.
I`m talking with my co-host Laura Baron. She`s with me all week.
Joining us, Gus Searcy, Jodi`s former mentor and one of the more controversial witnesses of the trial.
Take a look at this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t your reputation sir that you want to make yourself the center of attention?
GUS SEARCY, JODI ARIAS MENTOR: Where do you get that from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m asking a question, sir. You don`t get to ask me questions. Isn`t it true that you want to use this situation so that the limelight can be focused on you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Gus, thanks for joining us again.
Now, you told us that Jodi called you right after Travis was dead in June of 2008, and others since you`ve said that disputed that Jodi never actually said that he was dead when she called you. So explain -- so clarify that for us, will you?
SEARCY: That`s interesting. How would they know what I heard? But OK.
PINSKY: Hang on, Gus, let me interrupt. I want to know what you heard, because it wasn`t clear when you reported it. So, I guess, Let me ask the question more clearly. Did she tell you Travis is dead, I`m devastated?
SEARCY: Yes. Here`s exactly what she said. The phone rang. It was 3:30 in the morning, so I don`t know how that relates to when he actually died, but I got a call at 3:30 in the morning. It was Jodi, and she was crying hysterically.
And I said, what`s the matter? She said, Travis is dead. And I said, what happened? And she started crying again, and I said, what happened? She said, I don`t know. And I said, are you OK? She said, yes.
I said, where are you? She said, northern California. Well, at this point I know he`s in Arizona, she`s in northern California, so someone obviously notified her. I asked her if she needed a ride anywhere, and she said no, she was going to rent a car. And that`s what happened.
Since then, people have said, well, why didn`t you call the police? Well, if I know he`s in Arizona and I believe she`s in northern California, then obviously people already know. There would be no reason for me to call anybody at that point.
PINSKY: Did you get her to clarify how she found out about this so you knew not to call the police, like somebody had notified her, something had happened at a distance, anything like that come into the conversation?
SEARCY: Well, no. Keep in mind it was 3:30 in the morning and I had been sound asleep, but I asked, where are you, and when she said northern California, and I had met her only like a couple days before, a few days before on her way to northern California. So I believed she was in northern California.
I knew Travis was in Arizona. They`re 1,200 miles apart. It would never have occurred to me -- you know, hindsight, of course, people say, well, she killed him. But I didn`t know that at 3:30 in the morning that day.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Laura.
BARON: Gus, you understand you are not coming off as the most credible of witnesses. I mean, it really -- if you look back --
SEARCY: Why is that?
BARON: I will tell you. If you look back at the tapes of you in the courtroom, you are just about missing your pom-poms. You look so excited to be there. I mean, it definitely --
SEARCY: That`s not true.
BARON: -- feels like this is more about being in the limelight.
SEARCY: You know I`ve never -- wait a minute. Wait a minute. I`ve never tried to be in the limelight. The people who said that have been on the shows for the last two and a half years. I only showed up once this all happened, and only because they said I was in the limelight and I took on the district attorney is the only reason I`m here.
You guys called me. I never tried to be here.
PINSKY: Gus, I get you.
SEARCY: One last thing.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SEARCY: Everything I had was phone records. They never needed me at all. It was phone records.
PINSKY: OK, and you`ve been very kind. You`ve been very kind to come. And I appreciate it. You`ve been a good guest for us.
BARON: Sure, it`s just a credibility issue.
PINSKY: Well, you evaluate, Gus, your performance on the stand. How do you think you did?
SEARCY: I think I did fine. I answered the questions. I wouldn`t let him put words in my mouth. He kept trying to put words in my mouth like it`s a pyramid. Well, it`s not.
The limelight -- that was something they came up with to try to discredit me. I can`t help they did that. I`m not going to sit there and not defend myself. But I never tried to go on any show before that stint. Other people have been. It`s the pot calling the kettle black.
PINSKY: Gus, you`ve been kind to join us. I appreciate it. Thank you for being here. I also want to thank Marcia Clark and Cheryl Arrut.
Next, one of my jurors who sat -- my jurors, so to speak, who sat directly behind Jodi arias in court. She`ll tell us what she saw when we come back. There she is.
PINSKY: It is time once again for "Drew`s Jury." I`m back with my co-host this week, relationship coach, Laura Baron. Joining us from the jury, not the actual jury, but from our jury in the courtroom, Katie Wick, who sat right behind the Arias family today, and Kjerstin Pinc. Kjerstin, I hope I got -- I pronounced your name right. Kjerstin is a high school student doing a report about this incredible drama we`re seeing in the courtroom, Laura.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: Welcome to adult love, honey.
PINSKY: Hang on. I have questions about that, but I want to go to Katie first. Katie, is there tension in the courtroom as we`re building to those last few minutes of Travis` life?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh, boy. Today, the first half of court today was so -- I don`t like this word, but Dr. Drew, so boring. And, we came back and we thought it was going to be more text messages, more of the same. When Nermie (ph) got to the actual day of, the night of the killing, yes, you can feel the tension in the courtroom, and the jury started paying more attention. People were sitting up.
So, the tensions there, we were -- we actually thought he`d get to the actual event in the shower, but it looks like that`s going to come tomorrow. So, people are looking -- I don`t want to say looking forward to it, but we`re waiting for it.
PINSKY: I didn`t hear much that helped me understand how you get from where they left off to those last -- through those last few minutes if somebody getting their head chopped off, but Kjerstin, I want to go to you. You`re a high school student. You`re doing, I guess, a term paper or something about this case. I appreciate you joining us.
I got to ask the one question, does your mom have an issue with you sitting through all this very graphic material in the courtroom and how are you going to report on that?
KJERSTIN PINC, DR. DREW "JUROR": You know, she doesn`t really have an issue with me sitting through it because we`ve always had an open relationship. She`s never really shielded me from these kinds of event type things. And my paper is actually about battered women syndrome. It`s not about the specific case, but it has more to do with, like, the abuse.
PINSKY: Do you think that Jodi was a battered woman?
PINC: You know, it`s really hard to tell, I mean, whether she`s lying or not. You know, so it really all factors into whether she really was a battered woman. So --
PINSKY: It`s really interesting, isn`t it? Let`s go to a phone call. I`ve got Tom in Virginia. Tom, do you have a question for the jury or myself or Laura? Go ahead.
TOM, VIRGINIA: Well, Dr. Drew, I just want to make a comment. Today, you know, I`m following this trial. I`m like pulling my hair out. Basically, how does a woman that`s a Mormon that left her boyfriend and said she`s a Mormon she can`t have sex with him for this guy and doing the things she`s been doing?
And number two, I want to know about the slashed tires. How come this judge is not letting this in? You know, everything else is fair game for her, but then, I heard they`re not letting the slashed tires in and the stalking is, you know, just being covered up. They`re going to go over it a little bit. If I was the prosecutor, I would have gone crazy.
PINSKY: Laura, I`ll let you ring in on this. I miss a little bit of what he`s saying. I think he said that the stalking behavior hasn`t been brought out the way it should be, the psycho things as she refers to briefly in the text messages, right?
BARON: Yes. I mean, I think ultimately what we see is that the psycho came out in the shower with 28 stab wounds. I mean, I think that`s enough psycho for this whole case, quite frankly.
BARON: But I also think that it is unbelievable how much they are allowing about Travis and that is what`s kind of devastating. And girls, I wanted to know from you is, are you feeling at all protective of Jodi, like, because she`s claiming abuse, you kind of want to believe her or do you just feel she`s just a villain?
WICK: The thing that bothered me is last week, I actually started to kind of think, OK, she`s really in line, in tune with what an abused woman goes through. She knows it very well.
PINSKY: Right. And told a good story for that. Yes.
BARON: I believed it, too.
WICK: She did. But you know, the thing today that really bothered me is now we`ve reached the day of the killing, and Jodi seems to just have a memory loss. I mean, something that really, really infuriated me today was she said, oh, I don`t remember what I wore. You don`t remember what you wore the day you brutally killed your boyfriend?
BARON: Me, too. That bothered me, too.
PINSKY: She was recalling movements she made. Yes. She was recalling almost, you know, step by step what she was doing and yet couldn`t remember what she wore. It`s interesting. It made the rest of it seemed very rehearsed.
BARON: Do you know what else about the clothes is that she talked about unpacking pajamas. And I`m thinking to myself, if you have that kind of sex life, you are not wearing pajamas, sister.
WICK: She must have lost them.
PINSKY: Kirsten, I want to go back to you. I want to bring this back to the planet Earth here.
BARON: I`m sorry, honey. I`m sorry, Kirsten.
PINSKY: You are, Kirsten, more the age, closer to the age of some of the siblings of some of the players in this courtroom. Do you have any special empathy for the family?
PINC: You know, I really do, because they didn`t -- it`s not what they did, it`s what she did. And it really does like affect them in a negative way, I think, you know? But people feel more sorry for his family than they do for hers, and you know, I just think they look negatively on Jodi`s family, and you know, it`s not something that they did.
PINSKY: I want to ask the control room, do I have time for a call or am I running out of time here? Hang on a second, Katie. Do I have time for a call, everybody?
PINSKY: I`ve got to get out. Katie, thank you. Katie, I`ve got to get out I`m afraid. And Kirsten, keep up the great work.
BARON: And love is possible, Kirsten.
PINSKY: Kirsten, love is possible but not with a sociopath.
PINC: Thank you.
PINSKY: But more importantly, and this is the thing that`s getting swept under the carpet here, which is the domestic violence issue which is so massive and so important, and I`m so delighted a young person is getting into the nuances of this and raising understanding amongst your peers. Hats off to you, my dear, OK?
BARON: Job well done, honey.
PINSKY: Yes. Well done. Thank you, Katie, as always.