Lively Case Discussion #504 7/31 - 8/3/2006

[Ono]

What if the big shot players on the island are simply a set of people who cannot tell the truth? What if they are of the ilk that pathologically lie, even when the truth would actually serve them better? I've actually thought this may actually be the cause behind the cover up. They may simply not be psychologically able to to tell the truth.

Could very well bepart of this....Deepak's mother is so ignorant, she thinks lying is normal behavior.

[Ono]

Ono wrote:

Or monumental in their own thoughts...in their imaginations...I do not think Joran was alone in her distress/trauma at the Sloot compound.

Say what you will about Papa Sloot, but he would be smart enough to know "the accidental death" scenario would work.  Something or someone dictated their actions.  This was not the "desired" way out.  

If it was JUST the pimps, I could agree they panicked and tried to cover it all up.

Not if an autopsy was demanded by Natalee's family...and he knew full well that was a distinct possibility. Here was a well-educated American girl who was obviously was from a high class culture and background..Of course her family would demand an autopsy. An autopsy would reveal a virgin who had been molested...DNA would have told the tale as to who.  Of course a head injury would be a cinch to explain away with lies but  the head injury was the least of their worries.

[Houdini]

Ono wrote:

Could very well bepart of this....Deepak's mother is so ignorant, she thinks lying is normal behavior.

Okay, I'll agree that if Deepak's mother was involved in NH's disappearance, in any way, shape or form, there is NO chance of learning the truth.

Remember, it's not lying if you actually believe it's the truth.  She appears to be able to convince herself of anything at any moment.  She just can't believe that she can't make US believe.   JMHO

[Houdini]

Ono wrote:

Not if an autopsy was demanded by Natalee's family...and he knew full well that was a distinct possibility. Here was a well-educated American girl who was obviously was from a high class culture and background..Of course her family would demand an autopsy. An autopsy would reveal a virgin who had been molested...DNA would have told the tale as to who. Of course a head injury would be a cinch to explain away with lies but the head injury was the least of their worries.

Unless there was dismemberment, an autopsy's findings could be explained away.  Remember it's ONLY their account that would be heard.  Even ligature marks on wrists and ankles could be explained as "rough sex", agreed to by all.

I'm sorry to get so graphic, but only to make a point.  

The point is there is some other reason why she disappeared.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Greta Wire:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,206401,00.html

E-mail No. 7

What's going on with the Holloway case? Are they any closer to finding out the truth or what?
Thank you,
Mrs. Brandenburg

ANSWER: I am in frequent touch with Natalee's mother, her lawyer, Joran's lawyer and many others in this case and sadly there is nothing new.

[wreck]

IMO, this is WAY bigger than a cover-up for a "simple murder" or accident gone awry. There are "BIG" players involved that prevent Aruba from mitigating the damage. The Van Der Sloots and Kalpoes simply don't merit the cover-up that is being waged here on their behalf.

[Ono]

Ono wrote:

Could very well bepart of this....Deepak's mother is so ignorant, she thinks lying is normal behavior.

Okay, I'll agree that if Deepak's mother was involved in NH's disappearance, in any way, shape or form, there is NO chance of learning the truth.

Remember, it's not lying if you actually believe it's the truth.  She appears to be able to convince herself of anything at any moment.  She just can't believe that she can't make US believe.   JMHO

She is crafty...and is well aware of the truth as she is lying. She's ignorant but not stupid.

[Houdini]

Ono wrote:

She is crafty...and is well aware of the truth as she is lying. She's ignorant but not stupid.

WAY too transparent.  You know she's lying as soon as the first word comes out of her mouth.

[Shizaru]

Justinsmama wrote:

Evidence of all: battery, rape, drugged.

They went to a rave where she "willingly" took drugs and made love.  She fell in the rock fountain in Joran's back yard and drowned.

Their word is the only one the police would have to go on, since she cannot speak for herself.  It would have been ruled an unfortunate accident.

No, something or someone bigger had more to lose.   JMHO

I doubt Paulus/Anita would admit to a 'rave' at their home..it is at their home where I believe Natalee was harmed; A virgin does not willingly make love to some boy she has known for thirty minutes; If Paulus is involved also, initially, this does make things difficult DNA-wise...; A physical examination would reveal that she was a virgin who had been molested.

After noticing something in the polis car tape the other day I am now almost completely convinced that the crime scene was the beach north of her hotel.   On the tape 2K repeatedly tell Joran he needs to tell the truth, and express confidence they are going home because they are telling the truth. It makes absolutely no sense that 2K would be saying that to Joran if the beach dropoff story all 3 of them were telling was a complete lie.  The logic is inescapable... the beach dropoff is true.  I do not believe she was ever inside the VDS home unless it was after the beach.

[SunFreak2]

IMO, this is WAY bigger than a cover-up for a "simple murder" or accident gone awry. There are "BIG" players involved that prevent Aruba from mitigating the damage. The Van Der Sloots and Kalpoes simply don't merit the cover-up that is being waged here on their behalf.

I still think Joran was trying to pay off a debt owed when he snatched Natalee.  However he decided to sample the goods, and before he could hand her over, something went wrong.  The cover-up is as much for the person Joran was procuring a girl for as it is for Joran, Paulus & the pimps.

Somehow, Michael Posner, is involved.  Why else would he be footing a lot of the bill? Why hasn't his gaming license been revoked?  Obviously he had connections to get the license in spite of being a convicted felon.

[Houdini]

Based on the number of suspects brought in for questioning, who thinks that "the pimps" were stalking the MB group?

[justinsmama]

Based on the number of suspects brought in for questioning, who thinks that "the pimps" were stalking the MB group?

Wildly waving hand here!

[SunFreak2]

Government has its hand over Michael Posner’s head?
Notorious Chicago figure active in Aruba casino
DIARIO Aruba
10/17/2005

ORANJESTAD (AAN): Some time ago DIARIO found information regarding the manager of the Holiday Inn’s Excelsior Casino and people have been calling out to ask how a figure with a criminal past of such an extent can be active in the casino industry of Aruba.

His name? Michael Posner, owner (or one of the owners) of the Brickel Hotel situated in front of the big hotels in Malmok. In the past he was arrested in the state of Illinois for violation of the Ricco Act (racketeering) and because he was also involved in the world of prostitution.

He was condemned to 10 years in prison, but apparently he served 8 out of the 10 years. He appealed his case and lost the appeal! After he was released he was on parole for 5 years. His name is also mentioned as an associate of a notorious family.

DIARIO knows that the government is at the height of such people, and asks how he can be active in the casino industry of Aruba. How did he find a permit to work in this branch with the background that he has? How has the Minister of Justice still not taken action against him? Now that his criminal past is known, what is the government waiting for to take him out of Aruba?

During the [election] campaign which recently came to an end, many comments and rumours were circulating regarding contributions to certain politicians, including those in the [current] government. DIARIO hopes that the issue of campaign moneys remain a rumour, because if true, then there are more politicians for sale than is [already] apparent.

The presence of Michael Posner in the Aruba casino industry, with the criminal past that he has, does not speak well of the judicial control system, nor that of National Security, nor of those in charge to check the background of those who work in the tourism industry of Aruba.

This is the damage that one person with such a bad reputation, who was incarcerated during 8 years, who is associated with a notorious family in America, can cause to the tourism of Aruba.
<END QUOTE>

[Ono]

Ono wrote:

Not if an autopsy was demanded by Natalee's family...and he knew full well that was a distinct possibility. Here was a well-educated American girl who was obviously was from a high class culture and background..Of course her family would demand an autopsy. An autopsy would reveal a virgin who had been molested...DNA would have told the tale as to who. Of course a head injury would be a cinch to explain away with lies but the head injury was the least of their worries.

Unless there was dismemberment, an autopsy's findings could be explained away.  Remember it's ONLY their account that would be heard.  Even ligature marks on wrists and ankles could be explained as "rough sex", agreed to by all.

I'm sorry to get so graphic, but only to make a point.  

The point is there is some other reason why she disappeared.

Paulus is savy enough to realize that Natalee's family would demand their own coroner to do an autopsy.  Natalee was not a little island waif...I do not think there was evidence of bondage, etc. that concerned him...it was the possibility of internal DNA evidence exposing the culprit/s which spooked him.

[Ono]

Ono wrote:

She is crafty...and is well aware of the truth as she is lying. She's ignorant but not stupid.

WAY too transparent.  You know she's lying as soon as the first word comes out of her mouth.

She even seems amused at herself as she delivers the lies.

[Houdini]

Ono wrote:

I doubt Paulus/Anita would admit to a 'rave' at their home..it is at their home where I believe Natalee was harmed; A virgin does not willingly make love to some boy she has known for thirty minutes;A virgin makes love sooner or later, without her testimony you cannot prove it was without her consent. If Paulus is involved also, initially, this does make things difficult DNA-wise...So he took part, but if it was consentual, there is no crime as she was 18.; A physical examination would reveal that she was a virgin who had been molested. It would only prove that her hymen had recently been torn, her testimony that it was against her will would be needed to prove molestation

[Ono]

Justinsmama wrote:

Evidence of all: battery, rape, drugged.

They went to a rave where she "willingly" took drugs and made love.  She fell in the rock fountain in Joran's back yard and drowned.

Their word is the only one the police would have to go on, since she cannot speak for herself.  It would have been ruled an unfortunate accident.

No, something or someone bigger had more to lose.   JMHO

I doubt Paulus/Anita would admit to a 'rave' at their home..it is at their home where I believe Natalee was harmed; A virgin does not willingly make love to some boy she has known for thirty minutes; If Paulus is involved also, initially, this does make things difficult DNA-wise...; A physical examination would reveal that she was a virgin who had been molested.

After noticing something in the polis car tape the other day I am now almost completely convinced that the crime scene was the beach north of her hotel.   On the tape 2K repeatedly tell Joran he needs to tell the truth, and express confidence they are going home because they are telling the truth. It makes absolutely no sense that 2K would be saying that to Joran if the beach dropoff story all 3 of them were telling was a complete lie.  The logic is inescapable... the beach dropoff is true.  I do not believe she was ever inside the VDS home unless it was after the beach.

All scenarios are possible, however, I have always taken that converstaion with a large grain of salt.  I do not put a lot of credence in the contents.  It's just too obvious & simple to believe it was all candid and honest, in my opinion.

[Ono]

Ono wrote:

I doubt Paulus/Anita would admit to a 'rave' at their home..it is at their home where I believe Natalee was harmed; A virgin does not willingly make love to some boy she has known for thirty minutes;A virgin makes love sooner or later, without her testimony you cannot prove it was without her consent. If Paulus is involved also, initially, this does make things difficult DNA-wise...So he took part, but if it was consentual, there is no crime as she was 18.; A physical examination would reveal that she was a virgin who had been molested. It would only prove that her hymen had recently been torn, her testimony that it was against her will would be needed to prove molestation

Use your common sense. No virgin would have intercourse with a person she had known for thirty minutes. You must be a male.

[Houdini]

Ono wrote:

Paulus is savy enough to realize that Natalee's family would demand their own coroner to do an autopsy. Natalee was not a little island waif...I do not think there was evidence of bondage, etc. that concerned him...it was the possibility of internal DNA evidence exposing the culprit/s which spooked him.

They could find 20 different DNA's during the autopsy and they still couldn't make the case that she was raped.

A witness attesting to her unwilling participation is required.  Someone who says they heard her say stop is all that is needed.  

Unless she was dismembered (there's really no explanation she could have did that herself or agreed to have it done), an autopsy would not be feared.

[Houdini]

Ono wrote:

Use your common sense. No virgin would have intercourse with a person she had known for thirty minutes. You must be a male

Oh yeah Ono, that logic will stand up in a court of law.