Run away and alive

[WonderWoman]

Funny how nobody cares if we attack the ones in custody...hmmm....we do not know them, yet we judge based on what? The fact that they were doing the same things she was doing while in Aruba?  Why do we think these boys are sooooo rotten and out of control?  Or that their families do not deserve to be coddled as well.....I would imagine they are going through a living hell too.  I guess we can just thank god their children are not missing.

[SteveDinMD]

Tuscaloosa, where the University of Alabama is located, is a little over 60 miles from Mountain Brook, Alabama, for a total distance equal to approximately 6 times the length of the island of Aruba, in its longest dimension.  If Natalee wanted to escape her family, those 60 miles would have been more than enough separation, certainly much more than she would currently enjoy if she were alive, hiding out on the island.

[WonderWoman]

Tuscaloosa, where the University of Alabama is located, is a little over 60 miles from Mountain Brook, Alabama, for a total distance equal to approximately 6 times the length of the island of Aruba, in its longest dimension.  If Natalee wanted to escape her family, those 60 miles would have been more than enough separation, certainly much more than she would currently enjoy if she were alive, hiding out on the island.

The point is, we don't know....we don't know what she feels inside, we don't know what happens in ANYONE's home.  We don't know if Joran and the boys' are good kids' too. They seem to be just as "good" as NH. If you look at the options for "fun" in Aruba, I am sure you will find most of the teens engage in the same partying as these three.  Teens involve themselves in their surroundings, what is offered, and if they are offered a drinking age of 18 and many casino's what the hell else are they going to do?  We cannot base our opinions of them on websites, or music they listen to.  As I cannot form any opinion based on NH's love of LYNARD SKYNARD!!  Free-Bird... peace out dude  LOL

[SteveDinMD]

No one is randomly attacking those in custody.  A rational consideration of the facts yields the conclusion that Joran and the Kalpoe brothers were involved in Natalee's disappearance.  They were the last people to have provably seen her alive.  They have all lied to the police.  Three weeks into the investigation they have yet to provide a detailed, accurate account of their actions and whereabouts the night of Natalee's disappearance.  They were involved, case closed, even if the precise details are as yet unknown.  If the Van Der Sloot and Kalpoe families are suffering, it is due exclusively to the willful actions of their rapist/murderer offspring.  I'm not terribly sympathetic.  I would take a more charitable view of the families, however, if they were to immediately stop trying to protect their sons, and publicly demand that they confess.

[WonderWoman]

No one is randomly attacking those in custody.

really?


(he goes to aruba international school and his mother is a teacher there and he is a straight A student ) in panic and said there a re family members here at school and they are sharing flyers and the flyers said : GIRL KIDNAPPED ASK JORAN VANDER SLOOT (thats my friends name ) the principle asked them to leave and they did

**before they were in custody......

[SteveDinMD]

What I have stated above are the incontrovertible facts as they have emerged over the course of the investigation.  I personally don't care if Joran is an A student at the International School.  He's earned an "F" in truthfulness to criminal investigators.  If, as you imply, you are a friend of his, you should urge him to come clean, and tell all he knows, even if he's guilty of rape and murder.  Believe me; Joran could well have bigger problems than potential prosecution.  

What Joran doesn't realize is that he can never escape accountability.  Does he honestly believe that he'll be home free if he can only stall some third rate Aruban police officials until 116 (or whatever) days have passed?  If so, then he is truly stupid.  If Joran walks, I imagine he could be in far greater danger than if he had confessed and been sent to prison.  As I see it, there are many, many people who knew and loved Natalee Holloway, and who could possibly be moved to seek revenge if her killer escaped justice.  Furthermore, there are literally thousands of potential vigilantes across the US who might feel compelled to take it upon themselves to see justice served.  Joran lives on a small island, easy to get to from the US, and to millions his is the well-known face of infamy.  How can he ever feel safe?  If Joran walks, I think he would be well advised to go "underground" for years in order to escape reprisal.  I'm afraid your friend is caught between a rock and a hard place.  Truth might be his only way out.

[WonderWoman]

Just for the record....not a friend of mine....

[Karl]

A five day bender instead of a week long bender,  I stand corrected.  My point is not that she is a bad person, my point is that she is a typical 18 year old, with typical 18 year old problems and maybe she decided to leave those problems behind.
The mom really does seem to be causing more harm than good, for example:
If someone other than Joran becomes a suspect and goes to trial their will already be reasonable doubt in the form of the statements that the mother has made.  By injecting herself into the investigation she has hampered what proffessionals from both the US and Arruba were trying accomplish.  
In addition, it was reported that the authorities were tracking the three suspects with GPS before their arrest.  Maybe they were hoping that they would be able to follow them to the girl.  Now because they were forced to arrest them, that opportunity is gone.
Healthy families when faced with a crisis help the authorities and do what they can to help, not make themselves part of the story.
[/u]

[Karl]

If this is true the Joran and his friends may be very happy that they were in jail:
"A reliable source on the island of Aruba has confirmed reports of a recent murder / decapitation, and also confirmed reports of another murder currently under investigation in Aruba. A third report regarding a possible new missing person report filed today has not been confirmed at this time."
Being in jail is very good alibi, unfortunately it may mean that she is not a runaway.

[martin connahey]

Now, now. No one is attacking nh's mom. Sorting through the numerous aspects of this case calls for logic, not emotional reaction to posters based upon their alleged biases ( about which you are dead wrong ).

This site is about speculation, conjecture, thinking-out-loud, etc. The need to assert that right was a direct response to a poster who, like you, wishes to censor speech. Censorship will serve no one's interests in either the short or long run.

I am aware of others' feelings, but that is, in fact, irrelevant here. Thousands of news stories, every day, hurt feelings, make people sad, glad, depressed, and suicidal. It is not the responsibility of the media ( or of posters on this site ) to censor themselves due to the spectrum of emotional reaction of every conceivable reader. Take a time machine back to Stalinist Russia if a muzzled public is what you desire.

You, rightly, assert and restate that women can and should be insistent, assertive, etc. I fully agree. Men, too, need to be insistent, assertive, etc. Anything else we need to be, as you put it. Again, I agree. Yet when these women face disagreement or are challenged, you call that an attack. It's not an attack, it's disagreement. It's a challenge. I sincerely think Twitty is hurting her own cause and stated my opinion openly. Strong, powerful women ( like yourself, I assume ) should be able to withstand that difference of opinion. Oddly, you wish to not deal with the issue ( eg, Is she acting contrary to her cause? ), but to assume ( wrongly ) that I am not used to strong women, and you go on to remind me that this is the 21st century. I assure you that I am used to strong women, deal with them daily on an equal footing. Nearly all of them are able to withstand argument, disagreement, and direct confrontation.  You're preaching to the choir in that respect.

And yes, I do have a right to speculate, will continue to do so, and do so more often now that I know the censors like yourself want me not to.

The point of my original post, however, remains unanswered: Twitty is bad PR and would help her own case by doing a little "disappearing act" herself. That's my opinion and I will continue to support and defend it here and elsewhere. The PC police will not censor us in this forum. Get used to it. This, as you say, is the 21st century.

[SteveDinMD]

Actually, I don't think the Twitty's have hurt their cause at all.  If anything, their aggressiveness has been what has prompted people to take Natalee's disappearance  seriously.  The advice first offered by the police to the Twitty's was a suggestion that they go to Carlos n Charlie's because it was Ladies' Night, and Natalee would be sure to show up.  A little assertiveness is in order, I think, in the face of such non-feasance.

[martin connahey]

Good point. Mostly what I'm referring to is the injecting of themselves into the case, which Karl ( I think ) mentioned in an earlier post. I have found this point ( is Twitty mom hurting or helping her own cause? ) to be surprisingly much-discussed on many blogs. Opinion seems about split with good arguments both ways. Your point is well taken. Thanks for the post.
--M C

[martin connahey]

If Joran wants to avoid prosecution and conviction, he should IMMEDIATELY change his last name to Jackson.

Maybe the 4 were playing a drinking game called Survivor, and Natalee got "voted off the island."

Hey, this mystery involves a young woman, water, sexual hanky-panky, and alcohol. I've got it! The culprit is Teddy Kennedy.

A reporter friend of Bill Clinton's filled him in on the case: "There's a bar in Aruba where women go. They drink, party, and then disappear forever." Clinton responded: "Do they take reservations?"

Someone told Al Gore that over 100 students went on the Aruba trip and all but one came back. Al's response? He demanded a recount.

At a news conference, John Kerry was asked about the situation in Aruba. He said: "I consider myself somewhat of an expert on the subject of Aruba, having spent Christmas Day of 1968 there. I lost a leg in that battle. We saw heavy fighting. Later that night, I got hit by a sniper and lost an arm. That's right, an arm and a leg. It was an expensive night. Fortunately my limbs have grown back, and I'm able to cover the scars with purple hearts that I got at the Dollar Store. The Arubians are wonderful people. Al Gore and I actually invented Aruba many years ago.

Oliver Stone weighed in on the Holloway case with his own theory: "The Joran boy is just a patsy. There's a strip club near C+C's. On that club's stage there is a pole made of brass. The real killer hid near this Brassy Pole, and was competing with Joran for Natalee's attention. The guy near the Brassy Pole was Natalee's SECOND SUITOR. Find him, and you'll solve this case."

[calif-mom]

[quote="Karl"]Her mother seems very overbearing and you can see why someone might want to get away from someone like that.  


I find "her mother" to be very strong & courageous. I recall reading that she said she wanted to be strong for Natalee and to make Natalee proud of her by doing everything she could to find her.

I would hope that if I was (God-forbid) ever in Beth's place I would be every bit as "overbearing". She is to be commended for keeping this case in the limelight.

Speculation on the relationship between mother and daughter is simply that. Speculation.  There is no grounds to imply that Natalee wanted to "get away" from her family.

She has the prayers & hopes of a nation behind her.

[diverpam]

2. Diverpam is, by her own account, personally connected with the players in this situ, thus her objectivity is nil.

I never said I was objective, but I'm in a much better position to know and understand Beth's character and reasoning that someone who has absolutely no personal knowledge about the family.

3. This is a forum for discussing, airing, questioning, and speaking freely about theories. A question posted by any user is fair game, not an attack. To Diverpam and others with emotional connections to the nh family, Scared Monkeys is probably not a great place to be. But if you do choose to be here and post here, I guarantee you will see things which hurt your feelings, make you uneasy, and might even make you cry. Pleas of -Mommy Make The Mean People Stop Talking- will go unheeded.

Puhleeze.... you are not hurting my feelings. You are just making yourself look like a rather cold, uncaring and judgmental person. I take neither pleasure nor pain in that.

4. Bender? Maybe, maybe not. Okay, the nitpick is that it was 5 days not 7, and nh is over 18. So the edit makes the statement, ... A five-day bender/celebratory-drunk for newly of-age revelers. It is possible that nh was drunk as a goose, or not. We just don't know. Some theories posit that she was, which are as valid as theories which assume she was sober, ( many of which conjectures, by the way, are also posted in this and other forums ).

Thank you, at least for toning that statement down and making it conjecture rather than supposed fact.

5. Because I am posting in the United States, I will feel free, as we all should, to wonder aloud, theorize, and yes ( if a scenario I'm exploring requires it ) assume negative things about any the players, dutchboy and nh alike.

I am not challenging your right to theorize or speculate. I am asking you to not attack the victims here. Even under the most far-fetched scenarios that Natalee somehow decided to run away from a wonderful loving family, a host of friends, a brilliant future in premed and a full academic scholarship, Beth is still a very unfortunate victim of circumstances.

Facts:

She loves her daughter.
Her daughter is missing.
The last people to see her publicly have changed their stories several times.

Any mother in that situation would be in pure agony. Do you deny that?

6. Diverpam's heavy-handedness has reinvigorated my desire to explore any and every theory about this case, in public, in private, and of course right here in Freedom-Of-Speech city, aka Scared Monkeys.

Heavy handed? I beg your pardon. I stated first-hand facts about a woman I personally know and admire. I stated information I have seen from interviews with people who were among the last to see her the night she disappeared.

I asked you politely not to attack Natalee and her mom. If that's heavy-handed, then I should be worried about hurting your feelings. I hope I didn't make you cry.

7. Re: item #6, Mom Twitty, in a purely public-relations sense, is her daughter's own worst enemy. She turns the public off. If this case drags out much further ( time-wise, several months or more ), a complete national amnesia w/r/t this case will be, in no small part, due to her. If I were Mom Twitty, I'd go into hiding and let other cooler heads do the PR stuff

IMHO without Beth there would never have been the level of focus and intensity by FBI and other law enforcement agencies, including the Aruban police. I have been to Aruba several times -- I would be shocked and amazed if the Arubans had the experience and technical expertise to appropriately investigate this case. Because Aruba is normally such a safe place, they are not accustomed to investigating the types of situations that occur here in the U.S. on a daily basis.

This is a public relations nightmare for Aruba. They would have tried to swiftly and quietly resolve this case, emphasis on quietly, because tourism is their lifeblood.

I would hate to see Aruba misjudged based on this horrible turn of events. The people I have met there are very warm and friendly and I have always felt very safe there.

By the same token I hate to see this young lady and her mother misjudged. Beth hardly turns off the public, she is the reason that Natalee is, indeed, "everyone's daughter."

You have your right to your opinion. I disagree with it and the manner in which you express it.  That is my right…neither of which matters one iota in the scheme of things. What's important is Natalee, finding her, and bringing her home safely.

diverpam
Pam Grimes

[MominTN]

The comments about the mother are being offered in regards to whether or not Natalee could be a runaway.  Two things seem to indicate a strained mother daughter relationship.  First, the fact that the girl went on a week long bender indicates a troubled home life. Second, within less than 24 hours the mom had made herself the center of attention, seems like a classic stage mom.
These comments are not so much to disparage the family as they are address the possibility that she ran away.

There is absolutely nothing to imply that there was a troubled home life or that Natalee ran away.  This is ridiculous assertion to take the responsibility away from the Aruba authorities.
I have raised kids of my own and think that Natalee's parents have done a far better job in handling the media and being patient than I ever could have done.
Natalee obviously didn't run away because she left her packed luggage and purse with passport in her room.  What girl goes far without her purse?
The last person she is known to be with is Joran.  He knows what has happened to her.  You do not.

[mbhs05]

First off...I don't know where the "strained relationship" stuff is coming from. She and her mom have a good relationship, by ALL accounts.
Also the only people saying she was "too drunk" are people who were not there...I haven't heard from ANY of my friends that she was "falling down drunk". She was drinking legally and responsibly.
She wouldn't run away. Period.
So that theory is impossible.

[Duthiss]

I apologise to her family and other people close to Natalee if speculations about her to have run away sound offensive. It was not my intention to offend them. From pictures of Natalee it is easy to tell she is a nice girl and her mother looks like a loving lady. I'm more then convinced she wants the best things in life for Natalee.

Maybe it is just wishfull thinking that Natalee could have run away because it would mean that nothing bad happened to here.

If it is possible for 3 young men with no criminal records (please do correct me if I'm wrong) and no past of violating girls (again) from fortunate backgrounds to turn over night in killers who are able to cold blooded defend a story for weeks that they did not dispose of her, then keep an open mind for another unlikely story.

I do not believe in the sex slave story and if it is true that the FBI searched for Natalee outside Aruba they just might have followed a run away lead.

Keeping my thoughts on Natalee to return safely.

[martin connahey]

Hey Diverpam:

Mom Twitty's character is not the issue, her appearance is, which goes to whether or not she is hurting her own cause. Sure, you know these people, but there are advantages and disadvantages to that. One of the disads is that you see it too close, and can't "taste" the dislike which she instills in the general public. THAT hurts her case.

My guess is that you are not part of the 60% in the Fox poll today? In the long haul, what the public thinks will move this case fwd or make it disappear. Mom T is no help.

That is a point on which we disagree, obviously. My response is to say, yes, we disagree. Your response is to label it an "attack," and encourage me ( and others ) to not post. This is a PC game played by those whose reflex is to not discuss issues, but attempt to squelch debate by calling counter-arguments "hate speech." It's a worn tactic which worked, if faultily, in the 80's, but has been exposed, over time, as nothing more than an argumentative diversion, used by those who don't want to hear disagreement.

Cripes, this is an internet speculation board. Every avenue can and will be explored. It's not an attack, and no, I'm not crying. I'm just ( in response to you ) stating and having to restate my right to my opinion. Call me wrong ( you have ), call me insensitive ( you have ), call me a person who does not like strong women ( you have ). I can take it and respond to it. Notice, however, that I will not encourage you to NOT POST, nor will I label your disagreements "attacks." I welcome challenge, discussion, debate, openness. You seem to not welcome it at all.

Oh, all of this does indeed matter in the scheme of things by the way (much more than a missing-person case). Free speech is something people have been defending and dying for since time began.  

At least, and at last, you FINALLY relent and ( contrary to the tone of all your earlier posts! ) admit, "You have your right to your opinion." Better late than never!

Of course you disagree with my opinion, and the manner of its expression. But I'll not censor my own speech or views here, any more than I'd ask you to.

-MC

[Karl]

A good investigator needs to persue all leads and look at all possibilties, some of these possibilities may show the victim in a bad light.  The problem with having a loved one involved in the investigation is that, either because of denial or misguided loyalty they refuse to look objectively at the situation.
This thread seems to show this, the people who claim to know the victim refuse to even allow for possibilities that do not fit their preconcieved notions of the victim.  In the end this sort of attitude will probably allow guilty people to go free.  On this site it does not matter what people think or speculate but the mom is potentially having a detrimental effect on the investigation.