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Author Topic: RBN # 17 - 6/22/05  (Read 311854 times)
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absolut
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« Reply #620 on: June 22, 2005, 01:19:10 PM »

Quote from: "sb"
A quick point right here..!

By ALL accounts, these MB kids generally stayed up till all hours of the night, if they slept at all. Sleep was an afterthought for them for 4-5 DAYS (kind of reminds me of all of us!), I suspect they catnapped in the daytime in spurts and watched the sun rise... you get the picture. In a situation like that THE DAYS ALLL BLEND TOGETHER in a jumbled mass.  Therefore, I think we need to take specific time/day notations by those kids on the trip with a HUGE grain of salt!

I suspect the only time those kids ever looked at a clock was to make sure they didn't miss a start time for an event like a concert or snorkling trip etc. Which is why I am not putting too much into the report about them seeing Papa VDS at McDonalds at 3 AM. That could easily be a mistake due to the blur of time.


No but they could have seen him at 11pm picking up JVDS who they had really just met formally 1.5 hours before.
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UGAmom
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« Reply #621 on: June 22, 2005, 01:19:48 PM »

Quote from: "hope"
Quote from: "Kelly"
Quote from: "hope"
Help me out here- I'm a little late signing on this morning- Is Van Der Sloot changing his story as to say that "he left her on the beach asleep'??

Thanks


That is what is going around now. That is supposedly what jorans mother said


Thanks-  One would think at her age if she had meet Joran earlier that she would have told this to her "best" friends- you know talking all that guy stuff


Definitely.  She would have told someone she was interested.
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Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.  ~
ScubaSteve
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« Reply #622 on: June 22, 2005, 01:20:48 PM »

If you consider the Deepak email to be authentic, and furthermore their time of arrival at the bar to be truthful.... then the theorized "drugging" of natalee by JVS and company doesn't really fit.

JVS arrives at 12:30 bar closes at 1... that's a 30 minute gap.  Now consider Natalee has already had her fair share of drinks leading up to this point.  I don't know about you but the drinks don't go down as smooth after you have already had your fair share.   In order for JVS to drug her he would have to hand her a drink upon his immediate arrival to the bar, which doesn't make much sense.  Furthermore, I speculate it would take NH a good 25 plus minutes to even finish the drink after already having her fair share...especially if she was dancing.

Perhaps she and some of the MBHS boys (and girls who knows) voluntarily drugged themselves to make their last ngiht of vacation special?  

Or perhaps MBHS boys could have slipped something into Natalees drink?  (They were with her the majority of the drinking window that night)

Where do the MBHS students get the drugs from?  Consider this scenerio:  IT has already been reported that some of the students took the Tatoo boat with DJ Steve Croes....
...Some of the boys make friends with Croes (not common I have befriended and drank with DJ's on past trips).... They get to talking, Croes offers a connect for drugs if they are looking for it... one thing leads to another....

...Perhaps that is why Croes has been reported as cooperating with authorites.. many of you have even speculated he may just be a witness


I belive that is the more likely scenerio.  As to what happened after leaving CC, I do not really know.  MY guess would be that Nat OD's... JVS and the boys panic and get rid of the body...they know it doesn't look good since they were the last ones with her... which could explain why they act as if they are guilty.
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KerinTX
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« Reply #623 on: June 22, 2005, 01:21:04 PM »

Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Yeah, it may not be a huge issue but the whole "when did they meet" question is bugging me.
A few days before?
The afternoon/night of the disappearance?
OR...would she have met Joran on the day/night of this "scuffle"? Because even in the scuffle story I have read 2 versions. One is it happened at the casino and one is it happened outside C&C's.


PROBABLY TWO SCUFFLES. WE NOW HAVE A NAME DATE AND PLACE ON ONE.  THE OTHER ONE MAY BE ON SECURITY FILM.  IT IS RELEVANT TO THE CRIMINAL CASE.  SO IS WHO WAS NATALEE WITH AT CARLOS AND CHARLIES WHEN  IF I WERE DEFENDING OR JUDGING JORAN I WOULD WANT TO KNOW THE BEFORE AS WELL AS THE AFTER.  NOW, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE FBI IS GATHERING THESE FACTS BUT I WANT TO KNOW HOW THIS INFORMATION GATHERED OVERSEAS WILL BE ADMITTED TO THE LOCAL CASE.  THEE ARE TWO ISSUES HERE:  FINDING NATALEE, AND PUNISHING THOSE INVOLVED IN HER DISAPPEARANCE.   THEY ARE HOPELESSLY INTERTWINED.  RADIO SIGNING OFF?

Iquitos, it is probably my extreme exhaustion but your posts are making more and more sense to me.  Very Happy  Very Happy Keep on throwing in those ideas!! I do think ALL males involved in the week in question (regardless of nationality, etc) need to be questioned and eliminated.
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DT
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« Reply #624 on: June 22, 2005, 01:21:47 PM »

Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "CaliGirl"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "Cherry6905"
Her friends said she only met JVS the night she dissappeared. He was sitting at the same blackjack table as she and she made small talk with him. No more. Later her friends and she went to CC and saw Joran there. They said they were surprised he was there as he had stated at the Casino there was nothing to do on that night.


At some point we WILL know which of the meetings is true several days before or that day. Depending on which it is. The credibility of some will be serverly comprismised.


I agree. Again, we are having conflicting stories, this just being so disturbing because it's from witnesses who were witht he victim. I am just really bothered because BH had stated over and over Natalee knew Joran a couple days as also some friends. This always lead me to see how she would feel comfortable perhaps leaving with him. If she did, only have a brief encounter and meeting with him before CnC, I have many questions as to why then, after knowing someone so briefly, being described as "Level-headed" etc, she left with him.

I mean, it's the only facts we have or are allowed to have but as always I am starting to see other then the cold hard fact that she is missing, we have no other facts.


To add to this no one from the MB has said that Natalee didn't leave willingly which would be out of charachter as well if the real story is no real history between them.


I really don't think that would be out of character even if the just met that night story is true (which I dont think it is).  Again all of these kids are saying Joran looked like a normal guy.  If natalee had been around him all week and noticed him being a normal and had heard nothing bad from friends who had met him, she would probably have trusted him.  Especially when you factor in that she was probably naive and had been drinking that night.
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absolut
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« Reply #625 on: June 22, 2005, 01:22:33 PM »

Quote from: "CaliGirl"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Here is one thing though...
since every person telling the story of when Natalee and Joran met have said that they met in the HI casino, it should be easy enough to pull security tapes for the ENTIRE week to pinpoint exactly the date and time of their initial meeting and "who approached who" (for those who think that an important point).


Exactly Kerin! I have to gather that since Beth watched all of those tapes and saw Joran on the tape, her statements of "natalee knew Joran a couple of days" would be more correct. She seems like a fact stickler.

hee hee Just like me... jk


Not discounting but I have heard BH refer to the meeting different ways. In the interview last week she didn't even acknowledge that the tapes were used for anything other than to identify JVDS not when he met Natalee. She may have gotten the "when" from a similar source that we did.
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CancunMole
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« Reply #626 on: June 22, 2005, 01:22:54 PM »

Quote from: "hope"
Help me out here- I'm a little late signing on this morning- Is Van Der Sloot changing his story as to say that "he left her on the beach asleep'??

Thanks


News is saying he has changed his story, no confirmation.

Per Greta: Mrs. VdS told BHT that J told her that he left NH on the beach. I don't recall any "condition" being mentioned.
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Another K in Texas
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« Reply #627 on: June 22, 2005, 01:23:02 PM »

Quite possible they played at the same table even without "introduction".  That could explain why Nat gave him her name that night.  

Again I know you are getting tired of it, but teens today are really casual and will talk for a long time to people without knowing their names.
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iquitos
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« Reply #628 on: June 22, 2005, 01:23:45 PM »

Quote from: "hope"
Help me out here- I'm a little late signing on this morning- Is Van Der Sloot changing his story as to say that "he left her on the beach asleep'??

Thanks
 

HOPE:  GRETA SAYS THAT YESTERDAY JORAN'S MOTHER TOLD MRS TWITTY IN HER PRESENCE THAT JORAN TOLD HER HE LEFT NATALEE AT THE BEACH.  THIS IS DIFFERENT THAN THE STORY HE APPARENTLY TOLD THE ALABAMA POSSE TUESDAY AM AND WHICH WAS IN THE PRESS.  WE DO NOT KNOW IF HE KEPT TO THIS STORY AFTER HE WAS ACTUALLY ARRESTED.  IT MAY BE THAT THE "CHANGE " TOOK PLACE AS SOON AS THEY WERE IN POLICE HANDS AND THAT NONE HAS CHANGED THAT STORY.   WE HEAR FROM THE SECURITY GUARD THAT JORAN TOLD HIM  HE WAS DROPPED OFF AT HOME AND THE OTHER TWO PROCEEDED TO THE HOTEL TO FROP NATALEE.  DEEPAK, ACCORDING TO THE SECURTY GUARD, SAID THE HI STORY WAS MADE UP AND THAT THE TRUTH IS THAT THEY LEFT JORAN AND NATALEE AT THE MARRIOTT BEACH.  SO IT LOOKS LIKE DEEPAK MAY BE VALIDATING JORAN'S  NEW STORY, IF THE REPORTS AND ALLEGATIONS ARE TRUE.
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klaasend
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« Reply #629 on: June 22, 2005, 01:23:48 PM »

Does anyone know what day the kids arrived in Aruba?  I remember Dash or someone saying they were there only 4 days and the first day they were "jet lagged" and just hung by the pool.
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CaliGirl
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« Reply #630 on: June 22, 2005, 01:24:07 PM »

Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Yeah, it may not be a huge issue but the whole "when did they meet" question is bugging me.
A few days before?
The afternoon/night of the disappearance?
OR...would she have met Joran on the day/night of this "scuffle"? Because even in the scuffle story I have read 2 versions. One is it happened at the casino and one is it happened outside C&C's.


PROBABLY TWO SCUFFLES. WE NOW HAVE A NAME DATE AND PLACE ON ONE.  THE OTHER ONE MAY BE ON SECURITY FILM.  IT IS RELEVANT TO THE CRIMINAL CASE.  SO IS WHO WAS NATALEE WITH AT CARLOS AND CHARLIES WHEN  IF I WERE DEFENDING OR JUDGING JORAN I WOULD WANT TO KNOW THE BEFORE AS WELL AS THE AFTER.  NOW, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE FBI IS GATHERING THESE FACTS BUT I WANT TO KNOW HOW THIS INFORMATION GATHERED OVERSEAS WILL BE ADMITTED TO THE LOCAL CASE.  THEE ARE TWO ISSUES HERE:  FINDING NATALEE, AND PUNISHING THOSE INVOLVED IN HER DISAPPEARANCE.   THEY ARE HOPELESSLY INTERTWINED.  RADIO SIGNING OFF?

 Wink Thats why I look at things as I do. (Darn too much courtTv jk)

It is important in a way though, when she met Joran because it creates a different picture in this story somewhat.

I am not way attacking the vicitm just statements made, so bear that in mind. I have alredy stated that if she's responsible, level headed, "this is not of Natalee's character" etc.. is it not odd then, if she met him at 9:30ish briefly, saw him again at CnC briefly (no one has made any statement to as what happened in the club), then leaves with him? And knowing she just met him, I have more of a problem and questions of why, if this is the timeline, did anyone let her leave with a stranger. Because with this timeline, he's just that.

Yes, alcohol can cause you to do different things but I just don't understand this night. Sometimes in order to solve you have to think like the victim but we can't get any closer to the truth with conflicting stories from the one group who should at least have the answers up until she got into that car.
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Seeker
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« Reply #631 on: June 22, 2005, 01:24:36 PM »

Hi all from the sweltering midwest ...
Someone today said something that made me wonder if there were any live camera feeds on Aruba so I did a search - found just one. Anyone know if Bucuti Beach has been mentioned in ref. to Natalee at all? This webcam from Bucuti Beach archives pictures on the beach back to January 2005. Think it might be worthwhile to search back to the last days that Natalee was seen? Here's the link;

http://www.bucuticam.com/index.html

Seeker  (PS ... I hope this isn't posted more than once - I keep getting the page to try again later. I checked after each one and it didn't look like my post was getting through.)
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melrose
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« Reply #632 on: June 22, 2005, 01:24:49 PM »

Quote from: "ScubaSteve"
If you consider the Deepak email to be authentic, and furthermore their time of arrival at the bar to be truthful.... then the theorized "drugging" of natalee by JVS and company doesn't really fit.

JVS arrives at 12:30 bar closes at 1... that's a 30 minute gap.  Now consider Natalee has already had her fair share of drinks leading up to this point.  I don't know about you but the drinks don't go down as smooth after you have already had your fair share.   In order for JVS to drug her he would have to hand her a drink upon his immediate arrival to the bar, which doesn't make much sense.  Furthermore, I speculate it would take NH a good 25 plus minutes to even finish the drink after already having her fair share...especially if she was dancing.

Perhaps she and some of the MBHS boys (and girls who knows) voluntarily drugged themselves to make their last ngiht of vacation special?  

Or perhaps MBHS boys could have slipped something into Natalees drink?  (They were with her the majority of the drinking window that night)

Where do the MBHS students get the drugs from?  Consider this scenerio:  IT has already been reported that some of the students took the Tatoo boat with DJ Steve Croes....
...Some of the boys make friends with Croes (not common I have befriended and drank with DJ's on past trips).... They get to talking, Croes offers a connect for drugs if they are looking for it... one thing leads to another....

...Perhaps that is why Croes has been reported as cooperating with authorites.. many of you have even speculated he may just be a witness


I belive that is the more likely scenerio.  As to what happened after leaving CC, I do not really know.  MY guess would be that Nat OD's... JVS and the boys panic and get rid of the body...they know it doesn't look good since they were the last ones with her... which could explain why they act as if they are guilty.


This is exactly what I have been trying to say but you said it so much better.
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DT
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« Reply #633 on: June 22, 2005, 01:25:02 PM »

Quote from: "CancunMole"
Quote from: "DT"
Friends aren't saying anything really, except that it was crowded.


We've now heard from 6 different MB students. Am I the only one who has heard 3 different versions of when the realized she was missing (so who was waiting in the lobby?), when NH met J?

Also, if met him at 9:30 Sun nite at BJ table, what about the SBF concert?


Maybe they left the concert early.  

Again you need to take the times given by students who had gotten little sleep and had probably been drinking with a grain of salt.
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KerinTX
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« Reply #634 on: June 22, 2005, 01:25:03 PM »

Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "CaliGirl"
Quote from: "KerinTX"
Here is one thing though...
since every person telling the story of when Natalee and Joran met have said that they met in the HI casino, it should be easy enough to pull security tapes for the ENTIRE week to pinpoint exactly the date and time of their initial meeting and "who approached who" (for those who think that an important point).


Exactly Kerin! I have to gather that since Beth watched all of those tapes and saw Joran on the tape, her statements of "natalee knew Joran a couple of days" would be more correct. She seems like a fact stickler.

hee hee Just like me... jk


Not discounting but I have heard BH refer to the meeting different ways. In the interview last week she didn't even acknowledge that the tapes were used for anything other than to identify JVDS not when he met Natalee. She may have gotten the "when" from a similar source that we did.


could be...
that's why they need to pinpoint a date and time
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iquitos
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« Reply #635 on: June 22, 2005, 01:25:25 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Does anyone know what day the kids arrived in Aruba?  I remember Dash or someone saying they were there only 4 days and the first day they were "jet lagged" and just hung by the pool.


SINCE WHEN DOES A NORTH-SOUTH TRIP OVER ONE TIME ZONE CAUSE JET LAG?  JET, LAG JET SCHMAG
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lookingood
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« Reply #636 on: June 22, 2005, 01:25:46 PM »

Quote
CaliGirl wrote:
Quote
absolut wrote:
Quote
Cherry6905 wrote:
Her friends said she only met JVS the night she dissappeared. He was sitting at the same blackjack table as she and she made small talk with him. No more. Later her friends and she went to CC and saw Joran there. They said they were surprised he was there as he had stated at the Casino there was nothing to do on that night.


At some point we WILL know which of the meetings is true several days before or that day. Depending on which it is. The credibility of some will be serverly comprismised.


I agree. Again, we are having conflicting stories, this just being so disturbing because it's from witnesses who were witht he victim. I am just really bothered because BH had stated over and over Natalee knew Joran a couple days as also some friends. This always lead me to see how she would feel comfortable perhaps leaving with him. If she did, only have a brief encounter and meeting with him before CnC, I have many questions as to why then, after knowing someone so briefly, being described as "Level-headed" etc, she left with him.

I mean, it's the only facts we have or are allowed to have but as always I am starting to see other then the cold hard fact that she is missing, we have no other facts.


To add to this no one from the MB has said that Natalee didn't leave willingly which would be out of charachter as well if the real story is no real history between them.

(I just did a copy-paste of some replies, then added some "Quote" formats; I'm curious to see if they came out nested.  If not, I'd like to know how to do those nice, nested quotes)

One of the friends on Greta last night said that at the end of the night, when she asked Natalee if she was okay,  that Natalee "indicated that she was going back with the other group of students from MB."  

So, don't forget that Natalee might not have left with VDS "willingly."  

I'd like to ask that student also to clarify why she asked Natalee if she was "okay?"  Was she asking if she was tipsy, if she had a group to go back with, or if she was comfortable with VDS?  
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nancy_drew
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« Reply #637 on: June 22, 2005, 01:26:52 PM »

Quote from: "CancunMole"
Fox now 2 more from MB, Madison (roomie) & Guy. Madison: 9:30 Sun night @ BJ table!


Since I'm almost certain some of the other kids on the trip reported that Joran was seen with the group of Natalee's friends prior to the last evening, I think I'd like to hear from more of the kids.

One important note...with so many kids all in different activities throughout the week, some may not have seen things that others did.  It's just common sense that 140 kids all have different experiences and saw various things during their stay.  One group of kids may have seen Joran for the first time that night at 9:30pm while others may have been in a completely different area days before and seen him as well.

It's very hard to judge until more kids speak to this.
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Arlee
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« Reply #638 on: June 22, 2005, 01:26:52 PM »

iquitos wrote:
SWEET. ROXY, GOOD CATCH. SO THE MB BOYS HAVE A GRUDGE AGAINST JORAN AND SO THEY FINGER HIM TO THE TWITTYS BEFORE THEY EVEN GET TO ARUBA AND THEY GO AFTER HIM. JORAN IS PNG BECASUE HE IS HITTIN ON THEIR LITTLE GIRLS? SWEET
 
 Um, are you kidding me?  
Are you forgetting that Joran & the brothers *admit* they left with her, and in the car which matches the description of witnesses?
And that they lied about what happened next?
You're not seriously overlooking that in favor of a theory that boys from a shoving match framed him for a possible murder...?

Aside, not to Iquitos, but about the scuffle...  Didn't it say that happened the 2nd night, not the last?  So that wouldn't be part of a final timeline, right?
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JessesMom
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« Reply #639 on: June 22, 2005, 01:26:55 PM »

Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "UGAmom"
Perhaps he was around the group earlier in the week, but NH didn't actually 'meet' him until Sunday night.  She would have been somewhat familiar with him from his hanging out around the MBHS group.


Or more likely, she met him before but her friends weren't around or just didn't notice it.


That is what I'm thinking ... she may have met him earlier than the friends know about.  Could be that she was hanging around a table in the casino, he was hanging around, and they spoke to each other, not really a formal "meeting", but maybe they had been acquainted with each other earlier in the week .... I'm sure the kids didn't go around talking about every single person they had spoken to during the week.
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