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Author Topic: RBN #18 - 6/22/05  (Read 337287 times)
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chloe2
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« Reply #1320 on: June 23, 2005, 09:21:02 AM »

Quote from: "Professor"
?


    FAMILY history of lunacy/suicides????[/quote]

Actually family history of lunacy and suicides does NOT fit the profile. Narcissists don't go nuts. They drive OTHER people nuts.[/quote]

"Psychopaths display pathological narcissism, including grandiosity, but psychopathy is differentiated from NPD by psychopaths' willingness to use physical violence to get what they want, whereas narcissists rarely commit crimes; the narcissists I've known personally are, in fact, averse to physical contact with others, though they will occasionally strike out in an impulse of rage. "
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friend of monkeys
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« Reply #1321 on: June 23, 2005, 09:22:06 AM »

Quote from: "Rob"
i was trying to find my post from yesterday, but dont know how tyo use the search tool correctly. any way, my theory is this...

the three idiots are actually telling the truth. they did take natalee to the HI (fisherman hut, marriott area) and the sec guards from the soul beach concert were staying there(at the HI), that i confrimed. the company that was hired to provide security is ESSC. executive security service corp. they are a francihise, like a body shop with temp employees. i think that the sec guards took natalee, and removed her from the island in a trunk used for musical equipment or clothing. thats why there is no evidence. i will be looking into whether they have all employees pass background checks. and photos of all of their uniforms and a entire travel intinery. all flight schedules and if they had a private plane.. ESSC is run by clearance white.. phone number 678-364-8792..yesterday i contacted soul beach productions in california and spoke with ms. monica hall, she gave me the info on mr white. she was pleasant and seem willing to cooperate, about 5 minutes after my call to her.. they *69 ed me and i think they are a bit paranoid....the amount of ppl involved in the soul beach event was tremendous, they had to have private or chartered planess that only they have access to....your thoughts....



ROB--- but even items going on a private plane would be subject to search....probably red flag at airport...a crew like that...?

Also....is it me or has Harri Cruz (croes?) stopped reporting for DAG?
have not heard from him for days on dag...  so many name4s
wonder if he is rel to steve ??? both dj's/ political mouthpieces IMHO
thoughts??[/b]
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peace to all
iquitos
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« Reply #1322 on: June 23, 2005, 09:22:30 AM »

THIS IS FROM FX NEWS WEBSITE

Aruba Case Raises Issues of Sovereignty, International Law
Thursday, June 23, 2005
By Matt Hayes

The investigation of Natalee Holloway's (search) disappearance continues apace in Aruba. Aruban and Dutch authorities appear to be tracking down every possible lead and investigating every possible site that might be relevant to locating her.

Despite early criticisms of that investigation, it appears that local authorities are doing a capable job of determining where and how Holloway disappeared, and now, U.S. authorities, in the form of a search team from Texas, have been invited to participate. And with that, the issues of international law and sovereignty become even more pronounced.

Aruba falls under the jurisdiction of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and has its own governor, in much the same way Hong Kong did before it reverted to China in 1997. It is almost entirely regulated by Dutch law, and its full autonomy was achieved only in 1986, though by agreement the Netherlands is still responsible for Aruba's foreign affairs and its defense. It has virtually no legal system of its own, so it's at least theoretically possible that the individuals arrested in connection with Holloway's disappearance will be flown to the Netherlands and tried in a Dutch court.

In the days following Holloway's disappearance, many in the United States wondered why the FBI was not leading the investigation, even though Aruba is part of a foreign, sovereign land. No authorities other than Aruban police have any investigative or arrest power on the island. Dutch authorities are involved only because they have been invited to take part in the investigation.


Suppose the FBI had flown to the island and located the individuals who might be responsible for Holloway's disappearance. Suppose the FBI possessed enough information to make what would be a legal arrest, as the U.S. formulates it. Because the arrested suspect would have to be tried in a Dutch court, there is no guarantee that the arrest would pass legal muster in the Netherlands. It's conceivable that it might even violate the defendant's rights in such a way as to mandate his release.

There are certain circumstances under which a person who has murdered a U.S. national in a foreign country can be arrested by U.S. authorities anywhere in the world and tried for the murder, but the murder must be related to an act of terrorism. Even then, to assure that the arrest is legal, U.S. agents frequently bring the suspect to U.S. soil — a “transborder abduction (search)” that can confer U.S. jurisdiction over the suspect — and arrest him here.

In the early 1990s, Mexican nationals in Mexico kidnapped a Mexican wanted for the murder of a DEA agent (the murder occurred in Mexico). The Mexican defendant, Humberto Alvarez-Machain (search), was flown to El Paso, Texas, and arrested there by DEA agents. He then stood trial for murder in a U.S. court.

After Alvarez-Machain was acquitted, he sued the United States. (This prompted some to observe that the rights of foreign nationals to sue the U.S. are far more expansive than the rights of the U.S. to arrest foreign nationals abroad.)

Regarding the far less esoteric Holloway case, it has been a principle of U.S. law since 1824 that a state's law enforcement agents are prevented from exercising their functions in the territory of another state without the latter's consent. So while it might have been legal under Dutch law for the FBI to fly to Aruba the day after Holloway's disappearance and begin an investigation, it probably would not have been authorized under U.S. law.

There are indications that Dutch law, at least as it concerns the detention and questioning of suspects in criminal cases, is unexpectedly more robust than U.S. law. Joran van der Sloot, who in recent days looks to be the chief suspect in Holloway's disappearance, has been held for an extensive period of time for questioning and was not permitted to see his father, though he had requested it. It's possible, however unlikely, that van der Sloot remained and spoke with police voluntarily, though the turning down of a request to see his father indicates against it.

In the United States, police frequently succeed in detaining uncharged suspects who are legally not in custody and therefore legally free to leave. However, the legal status of being "in custody" triggers a suspects' Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights, and in the U.S., the longer an uncharged suspect is with police, the greater the presumption that he is in custody and that his Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment protections are triggered. It's possible that a six-hour stint in a police station is not custodial, but that an hour-long visit is, depending on what occurs there.

In the United States, the average suspect would by now be deemed to have been in custody, which would implicate his constitutional rights. As a general matter, in the United States, people must be charged or released within 24 hours of being taken into custody, and must have the charges read before a judge or magistrate (with the defendant present) within 24 hours within 24 hours of that.

In the U.S., in all non-terrorist cases, days spent incommunicado with police are always deemed custodial. Were the Aruba defendants in U.S. custody, they would either already have seen a judge or would have been released. In fact, this would almost certainly have occurred within the first 48 hours.

Whatever the outcome of law enforcement's involvement with van der Sloot, it's clear that Aruban and Dutch authorities have been relentlessly focused on finding Holloway. The sheer number of sites combed by police, the speed of the initial arrests, and now the extended custody of the most recent set of suspects, all indicate that a small island, unaccustomed to murder, is doing its level best to resolve the matter with the resources it has, and when those resources are lacking, calling in more.

Matt Hayes began practicing immigration law shortly after graduating from Pace University School of Law in 1994, representing new immigrants in civil and criminal matters. He is the author of the soon-to-be-published "The New Immigration Law and Practice."
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Professor
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« Reply #1323 on: June 23, 2005, 09:23:12 AM »

Quote from: "chloe2"
Psychopaths display pathological narcissism, including grandiosity, but psychopathy is differentiated from NPD by psychopaths' willingness to use physical violence to get what they want, whereas narcissists rarely commit crimes; the narcissists I've known personally are, in fact, averse to physical contact with others, though they will occasionally strike out in an impulse of rage.


This is from the second link posted about Narcissim.


Narcissists commit LOTS of crimes. Just that most of them are not violent ones. Cheating, stealing, lying, scapegoating, etc. And it would be perfectly in line with a narcissistic personality to give a girl a date rape drug and pass her around to his buds. And yes, he might even leave her there, on the beach, clothed or unclothed, and think nothing of it.
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Kelly
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« Reply #1324 on: June 23, 2005, 09:24:04 AM »

Quote from: "Rob"
i was trying to find my post from yesterday, but dont know how tyo use the search tool correctly. any way, my theory is this...

the three idiots are actually telling the truth. they did take natalee to the HI (fisherman hut, marriott area) and the sec guards from the soul beach concert were staying there(at the HI), that i confrimed. the company that was hired to provide security is ESSC. executive security service corp. they are a francihise, like a body shop with temp employees. i think that the sec guards took natalee, and removed her from the island in a trunk used for musical equipment or clothing. thats why there is no evidence. i will be looking into whether they have all employees pass background checks. and photos of all of their uniforms and a entire travel intinery. all flight schedules and if they had a private plane.. ESSC is run by clearance white.. phone number 678-364-8792..yesterday i contacted soul beach productions in california and spoke with ms. monica hall, she gave me the info on mr white. she was pleasant and seem willing to cooperate, about 5 minutes after my call to her.. they *69 ed me and i think they are a bit paranoid....the amount of ppl involved in the soul beach event was tremendous, they had to have private or chartered planess that only they have access to....your thoughts....


All that sounds believable.........but the one and only thing that takes me back to not knowing a damn thing is...............WHY THE CHANGE OF STORIES ............why....................i bet the beach story is the closest story to the truth...........but why all the other stories if they were not in fact involved in her dissapearnce.......if he was just an asshole and left her on the beach drunk and crying bc she turned him down for sex, or he raped her, then left her........ (yes that is a serious charge, crime) but she was alive when he left..........then you would think he would come clean about that and sweep away the murder charges pending against him...Just my opinion
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Kelly
amillerwvu
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« Reply #1325 on: June 23, 2005, 09:24:35 AM »

Rob,
I think your theory sounds plausible...good thinking!
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Compananzi
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« Reply #1326 on: June 23, 2005, 09:24:38 AM »

Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "Rob"
i was trying to find my post from yesterday, but dont know how tyo use the search tool correctly. any way, my theory is this...

the three idiots are actually telling the truth. they did take natalee to the HI (fisherman hut, marriott area) and the sec guards from the soul beach concert were staying there(at the HI), that i confrimed. the company that was hired to provide security is ESSC. executive security service corp. they are a francihise, like a body shop with temp employees. i think that the sec guards took natalee, and removed her from the island in a trunk used for musical equipment or clothing. thats why there is no evidence. i will be looking into whether they have all employees pass background checks. and photos of all of their uniforms and a entire travel intinery. all flight schedules and if they had a private plane.. ESSC is run by clearance white.. phone number 678-364-8792..yesterday i contacted soul beach productions in california and spoke with ms. monica hall, she gave me the info on mr white. she was pleasant and seem willing to cooperate, about 5 minutes after my call to her.. they *69 ed me and i think they are a bit paranoid....the amount of ppl involved in the soul beach event was tremendous, they had to have private or chartered planess that only they have access to....your thoughts....



ROB--- but even items going on a private plane would be subject to search....probably red flag at airport...a crew like that...?

Also....is it me or has Harri Cruz (croes?) stopped reporting for DAG?
have not heard from him for days on dag...  so many name4s
wonder if he is rel to steve ??? both dj's/ political mouthpieces IMHO
thoughts??[/b]


I doubt the baggage was checked.  Even in the US after 911, you can't possible check all luggages... on Planes, car and even cruise boats...
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nancy_drew
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« Reply #1327 on: June 23, 2005, 09:24:59 AM »

Quote from: "Sleeks"
IMO  The authorities do know something for sure, they are not talking probably for the various obvious reasons But it certainly not fair to her parents who want resolution. :x


Good morning...

I would agree they have more info concerning evidence, timeline, etc. But, it appears we are at a standstill due to not getting a straight truthful story from the boys.  Behavioral interrogators are either enroute or there...I suspect a new series of sessions will begin with the boys soon.

Someone last night suggested this new plan to bring in outside specialists indicates the FBI is taking a larger role in this case.

Also, if the Texas searchers find Natalee, dead or alive...we've got a whole new ballgame.
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chloe2
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« Reply #1328 on: June 23, 2005, 09:25:13 AM »

Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "chloe2"
Psychopaths display pathological narcissism, including grandiosity, but psychopathy is differentiated from NPD by psychopaths' willingness to use physical violence to get what they want, whereas narcissists rarely commit crimes; the narcissists I've known personally are, in fact, averse to physical contact with others, though they will occasionally strike out in an impulse of rage.


This is from the second link posted about Narcissim.


Narcissists commit LOTS of crimes. Just that most of them are not violent ones. Cheating, stealing, lying, scapegoating, etc. And it would be perfectly in line with a narcissistic personality to give a girl a date rape drug and pass her around to his buds. And yes, he might even leave her there, on the beach, clothed or unclothed, and think nothing of it.


I was simply quoting the description of narcissicists from the links provided. Are you a psychiatrist? Just curious.
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iquitos
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« Reply #1329 on: June 23, 2005, 09:25:32 AM »

Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "Rob"
i was trying to find my post from yesterday, but dont know how tyo use the search tool correctly. any way, my theory is this...

the three idiots are actually telling the truth. they did take natalee to the HI (fisherman hut, marriott area) and the sec guards from the soul beach concert were staying there(at the HI), that i confrimed. the company that was hired to provide security is ESSC. executive security service corp. they are a francihise, like a body shop with temp employees. i think that the sec guards took natalee, and removed her from the island in a trunk used for musical equipment or clothing. thats why there is no evidence. i will be looking into whether they have all employees pass background checks. and photos of all of their uniforms and a entire travel intinery. all flight schedules and if they had a private plane.. ESSC is run by clearance white.. phone number 678-364-8792..yesterday i contacted soul beach productions in california and spoke with ms. monica hall, she gave me the info on mr white. she was pleasant and seem willing to cooperate, about 5 minutes after my call to her.. they *69 ed me and i think they are a bit paranoid....the amount of ppl involved in the soul beach event was tremendous, they had to have private or chartered planess that only they have access to....your thoughts....



ROB--- but even items going on a private plane would be subject to search....probably red flag at airport...a crew like that...?

Also....is it me or has Harri Cruz (croes?) stopped reporting for DAG?
have not heard from him for days on dag...  so many name4s
wonder if he is rel to steve ??? both dj's/ political mouthpieces IMHO
thoughts??[/b]


MONKEY I DOUBT THEY WOULD SEARCH AN OUTGOING PRIVATE VIP PLANE.   I THINK THE SCENARIO IS FAR FETCHED BUT IT IS ANOTHER SECURITY GUARD ONE.
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sandraK
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« Reply #1330 on: June 23, 2005, 09:25:37 AM »

Eilo Posted a Open letter to FOX on Aruba Today.com
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Rob
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« Reply #1331 on: June 23, 2005, 09:26:06 AM »

items on private planes do not go throught the same checks...if you were a sec guard at  the airport and you knew that the soul beach concert was just held.. you prolly would nt want to rip open every trunk and box especailly if they look like a drum kit...all you have to do is leave one bass drum behind and you use the shell to put her in....you have a way to get her out....
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« Reply #1332 on: June 23, 2005, 09:26:08 AM »

Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "Sleeks"
IMO  The authorities do know something for sure, they are not talking probably for the various obvious reasons.  But it certainly not fair to her parents who want resolution. Mad


Do u think she is still alive?


HONESTLY AT THIS POINT Hate to say it but no.
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friend of monkeys
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« Reply #1333 on: June 23, 2005, 09:26:09 AM »

Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "chloe2"
Psychopaths display pathological narcissism, including grandiosity, but psychopathy is differentiated from NPD by psychopaths' willingness to use physical violence to get what they want, whereas narcissists rarely commit crimes; the narcissists I've known personally are, in fact, averse to physical contact with others, though they will occasionally strike out in an impulse of rage.


This is from the second link posted about Narcissim.


Narcissists commit LOTS of crimes. Just that most of them are not violent ones. Cheating, stealing, lying, scapegoating, etc. And it would be perfectly in line with a narcissistic personality to give a girl a date rape drug and pass her around to his buds. And yes, he might even leave her there, on the beach, clothed or unclothed, and think nothing of it.


I don't think he would risk getting in trouble with his mommy if anything"bad" happened to her after that...he would not have left her there...he himself know the island can be dangerous for a young girl esp alone/drunk on beach...
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jac723
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« Reply #1334 on: June 23, 2005, 09:26:28 AM »

Quote from: "Rob"
i was trying to find my post from yesterday, but dont know how tyo use the search tool correctly. any way, my theory is this...

the three idiots are actually telling the truth. they did take natalee to the HI (fisherman hut, marriott area) and the sec guards from the soul beach concert were staying there(at the HI), that i confrimed. the company that was hired to provide security is ESSC. executive security service corp. they are a francihise, like a body shop with temp employees. i think that the sec guards took natalee, and removed her from the island in a trunk used for musical equipment or clothing. thats why there is no evidence. i will be looking into whether they have all employees pass background checks. and photos of all of their uniforms and a entire travel intinery. all flight schedules and if they had a private plane.. ESSC is run by clearance white.. phone number 678-364-8792..yesterday i contacted soul beach productions in california and spoke with ms. monica hall, she gave me the info on mr white. she was pleasant and seem willing to cooperate, about 5 minutes after my call to her.. they *69 ed me and i think they are a bit paranoid....the amount of ppl involved in the soul beach event was tremendous, they had to have private or chartered planess that only they have access to....your thoughts....


Couple observations from your post:

1.  Researching if background checks are conducted--that would be interesting to know, especially where they are from
2.  If they were staying at the HI--well they have seen the MB students there--even NH I'm sure
3. If they do have photos-it would be interesting if they brought them in-if the 3 boys can ID the man--as they supposedly did for the other 2 SG's.
4. They *69 back--NOW for a business-that is very interesting---I agree with being PARANOID.

But during an investigation-why wouldn't they look into that in the first place--the boys did say a SG approached her--knowing they were there--they should have made them stay to ? them or have the 3 boys ID with them included--I don't know--hope this makes sense!
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Kelly
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« Reply #1335 on: June 23, 2005, 09:27:02 AM »

Quote from: "Kelly"
Quote from: "Rob"
i was trying to find my post from yesterday, but dont know how tyo use the search tool correctly. any way, my theory is this...

the three idiots are actually telling the truth. they did take natalee to the HI (fisherman hut, marriott area) and the sec guards from the soul beach concert were staying there(at the HI), that i confrimed. the company that was hired to provide security is ESSC. executive security service corp. they are a francihise, like a body shop with temp employees. i think that the sec guards took natalee, and removed her from the island in a trunk used for musical equipment or clothing. thats why there is no evidence. i will be looking into whether they have all employees pass background checks. and photos of all of their uniforms and a entire travel intinery. all flight schedules and if they had a private plane.. ESSC is run by clearance white.. phone number 678-364-8792..yesterday i contacted soul beach productions in california and spoke with ms. monica hall, she gave me the info on mr white. she was pleasant and seem willing to cooperate, about 5 minutes after my call to her.. they *69 ed me and i think they are a bit paranoid....the amount of ppl involved in the soul beach event was tremendous, they had to have private or chartered planess that only they have access to....your thoughts....


All that sounds believable.........but the one and only thing that takes me back to not knowing a damn thing is...............WHY THE CHANGE OF STORIES ............why....................i bet the beach story is the closest story to the truth...........but why all the other stories if they were not in fact involved in her dissapearnce.......if he was just an asshole and left her on the beach drunk and crying bc she turned him down for sex, or he raped her, then left her........ (yes that is a serious charge, crime) but she was alive when he left..........then you would think he would come clean about that and sweep away the murder charges pending against him...Just my opinion



Unless he in fact, thinks if he stalls he can get out of this mess......but regardless, his life is forever scarred.......so he might as well go out on a good note and admit what he knows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Kelly
Rob
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« Reply #1336 on: June 23, 2005, 09:28:09 AM »

Quote from: "Kelly"
Quote from: "Rob"
i was trying to find my post from yesterday, but dont know how tyo use the search tool correctly. any way, my theory is this...

the three idiots are actually telling the truth. they did take natalee to the HI (fisherman hut, marriott area) and the sec guards from the soul beach concert were staying there(at the HI), that i confrimed. the company that was hired to provide security is ESSC. executive security service corp. they are a francihise, like a body shop with temp employees. i think that the sec guards took natalee, and removed her from the island in a trunk used for musical equipment or clothing. thats why there is no evidence. i will be looking into whether they have all employees pass background checks. and photos of all of their uniforms and a entire travel intinery. all flight schedules and if they had a private plane.. ESSC is run by clearance white.. phone number 678-364-8792..yesterday i contacted soul beach productions in california and spoke with ms. monica hall, she gave me the info on mr white. she was pleasant and seem willing to cooperate, about 5 minutes after my call to her.. they *69 ed me and i think they are a bit paranoid....the amount of ppl involved in the soul beach event was tremendous, they had to have private or chartered planess that only they have access to....your thoughts....


All that sounds believable.........but the one and only thing that takes me back to not knowing a damn thing is...............WHY THE CHANGE OF STORIES ............why....................i bet the beach story is the closest story to the truth...........but why all the other stories if they were not in fact involved in her dissapearnce.......if he was just an asshole and left her on the beach drunk and crying bc she turned him down for sex, or he raped her, then left her........ (yes that is a serious charge, crime) but she was alive when he left..........then you would think he would come clean about that and sweep away the murder charges pending against him...Just my opinion


it was widely reported yesterday that no one has changed their story.. only anita vds story is different, but she was in holland and might not know....
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iquitos
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« Reply #1337 on: June 23, 2005, 09:28:28 AM »

Quote from: "nancy_drew"
Quote from: "Sleeks"
IMO  The authorities do know something for sure, they are not talking probably for the various obvious reasons But it certainly not fair to her parents who want resolution. Mad


Good morning...

I would agree they have more info concerning evidence, timeline, etc. But, it appears we are at a standstill due to not getting a straight truthful story from the boys.  Behavioral interrogators are either enroute or there...I suspect a new series of sessions will begin with the boys soon.

Someone last night suggested this new plan to bring in outside specialists indicates the FBI is taking a larger role in this case.

Also, if the Texas searchers find Natalee, dead or alive...we've got a whole new ballgame.
 

like it or not the boys are under no legal obligation to incriminate themselves.  the burden of proof is on the state.  old principle of civilized society where we have tried to stop taking the law into our own hands
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JessesMom
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« Reply #1338 on: June 23, 2005, 09:29:21 AM »

Quote from: "Rob"
the reason that this investigation is stalled is bc, they are looking in the wrong place....


I definitely believe that is a correct statement.  Whatever happened to Natalee, I don't believe at this point it is even directly connected to these 3 boys anymore .... I believe something "bad happened," but after she was left on that beach.  Just my opinion.

I think you could be on the right track, Rob.
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pinemeadows
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« Reply #1339 on: June 23, 2005, 09:31:24 AM »

Rob - Aren't you going to Aruba this weekend?

Also, what about the security shirt found on the beach?  Do you remember what color that was?  Any followup ever happen with that?
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