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Author Topic: RBN #18 - 6/22/05  (Read 319856 times)
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luna
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« Reply #300 on: June 22, 2005, 09:50:26 PM »

Quote from: "bendex"
Every day I am more convinced that the three suspects are innocent.

Interogation techniques are very during. They break you down and build you up .
I think they have nothing to confess. They left her at the beach . point.

If they have not confessed untill now for commiting a crime. I bow in deep respect for these guys being such diehards.

only what I want to know when where they aware for the first time that she was missing and why make up a story.
If would asume that the case would have been cracked by know with a confession.


I believe what Deepak told the security guard....they truly thought she would show up safe and sound a few days later.

I personally believe that they made up the story so that Joran didn't have to tell anyone they had sex....to protect him and her.  Remember he was being confronted by Nat's mom very first night afterwards.  I think it's natural a guy wouldn't want to tell the mom....so he made up the next best thing about dropping her off.
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GuyWdog
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« Reply #301 on: June 22, 2005, 09:50:31 PM »

I agree with "COCO" we have only been told the Story from the MSMedia. I dont know about you, but I haven't forgotten the Rather-Gate issue. Until we Hear form the Local Arubaian Authorities (Prosecutor) anything we hear is CONJECTURE at this point....I just find it hard to belive that an 17 year old kid could Hold up to a strenuoous Interogation for 2 weeks now..I don't think I could, do you ? Honest....question,,,honest answer..

GuyWdog
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CaliGirl
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« Reply #302 on: June 22, 2005, 09:51:25 PM »

Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "CaliGirl"
:::::loggin on and falling down from the loft:::::


Anyone ever find it odd, the since Natalee's mom truly believes she is alive, that she hasn't made a message on TV to her or those who might have her since she believes she is on the island?

Just something that came to me. Usually we see moms doing that along with trying to search.


She's doing it in person though.


They can't see it if it is on fox.


Yeah absolt...good point as always lol I forgot it's international  Laughing
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KerinTX
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« Reply #303 on: June 22, 2005, 09:51:45 PM »

Quote from: "ExTexinAZ"
Hi, all SM's!  I'm finally ready to stop lurking and join in.  I feel like I know you all already.  I've been reading for 3 days now and haven't done a thing around the house.  I was afraid I was a troll at first because I was lurking and wasn't registered!   Sad
Hi especially to all my Texas buddies on line here.  I miss the Lone Star State!
I'm just a parent of 3 boys, one who is 17, and I'm just as concerned as the rest of you about NH's disappearance.  It scares me to think that boys could so something like this.  I'm so hoping the newest theory that some of you have about the other security guards being involved is true.  I prefer to think she's been taken "elsewhere" than at the bottom of the ocean.
Welcome to all the other "newcomers" here.  Hopefully we won't all make too many mistakes!


Late greetings to you, ExTex!
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"What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"
RB
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« Reply #304 on: June 22, 2005, 09:52:30 PM »

However, my time is very valuable...and cheesecake-way-off-target discussions frankly bore me...especially when valuable bandwidth is at stake.

Well, when you have dialup, all bandwidth is "valuable". Smile
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bendex
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« Reply #305 on: June 22, 2005, 09:52:31 PM »

Well, if they did confess , they would have cracked this case many days ago, and with all the pressure on them they would certainly have made an announcement of it. And steve croes guy is in jail for drugs pushing I am convinced of it .

Quote from: "Twelve Monkeys"
Quote from: "bendex"
Every day I am more convinced that the three suspects are innocent.

Interogation techniques are very during. They break you down and build you up .
I think they have nothing to confess. They left her at the beach . point.

If they have not confessed untill now for commiting a crime. I bow in deep respect for these guys being such diehards.

only what I want to know when where they aware for the first time that she was missing and why make up a story.

If would asume that the case would have been cracked by know with a confession.



Yea but we don't know what is going on behind the closed doors. The Police won't tell "anything" so why do you think these boys are innocent? I doubt the police would even say if these boys did confess.
Quote
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Only the facts
Perforator
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« Reply #306 on: June 22, 2005, 09:52:41 PM »

Quote from: "RB"
Quote from: "Perforator"
Quote from: "RB"
I think so. I don't think that interogatting the students that were with her about wether or not she was drunk is the correct aproach. She was last seen with the 3 in custody. They know what happened after they left. The students do not. If it was a case of accidental overdose or a drunk related accident the students still could not answer. Only the 3 they have in custody. See my point?

If she combined medications or perhaps some x, it surely is something those friends closest to her would know.  Girls talk, Perf.  A lot.  or didn't you know? Smile


Yes but your missing the point. How is that going to find out what happened to her? Even if her friends said she took ecstacy and was drinking like a fish will that give us the answer we are all looking for?
The answer lies with the 3 in custody.


No, I'm not missing the point. I'm not worried about an answer for me, I'm more concerned that Ms Holloway's mother gets the truth:  from both sides faster than it has occurred to date.


ok are you a politician?
Let me break it down for you my friend.
Lets just say one of the kids that were with her confess, yes Natalie was taking ecstacy and drinking heavily.
Will that confession lead us to finding Natalie?
No. It may shed some light into her state of mind at the time she left with Joran but it will not find Natalie.
Once again, the answer lies with the 3 in custody.
They may be totally innocent.
They may be guilty of negligence leaving a comatose woman on the beach.
Hell maybe they gang raped her and killed her I don't know.
Obviously the Aruban authorities believe they know something there not telling or they would have let them go.
Discussing wether or not the kids that were with her are witholding some valuable information, when it doesn't really matter, makes no sense.
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hope
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« Reply #307 on: June 22, 2005, 09:52:57 PM »

Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "Shellbell"
Quote from: "bendex"
Every day I am more convinced that the three suspects are innocent.

Interogation techniques are very during. They break you down and build you up .
I think they have nothing to confess. They left her at the beach . point.

If they have not confessed untill now for commiting a crime. I bow in deep respect for these guys being such diehards.

only what I want to know when where they aware for the first time that she was missing and why make up a story.

If would asume that the case would have been cracked by know with a confession.


Me too.


Not me.

I figured as long as we were voting I'd see if there was anybody left on the message board who wasn't still looking for two black security guards, Columbian sex-taffickers, or space aliens.


I'm sticking to my original theory.  Gang/Date rape drug/OD/Dispose of the body.  All 3 are in on it, and others know about it.


I'm there with you - Da Wench
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klaasend
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« Reply #308 on: June 22, 2005, 09:54:52 PM »

Quote from: "xcptnl"
I had posted a while back and have been searching the web since then but thought someone in here might have better luck than I have.  About a week ago the Carlos N Charlies site had a different website.  They also had pictures posted and they were all dated for the day they were taken.  They apparently have a new website - is there anyway the old website might still be out there??  I know there is cached stuff but wasnt sure how it would work if they actually have a new one with the same URL.

The old site had pictures through May 22.  They took the whole site down before posting any more pictures as far as I know.  Now it's back up but no pictures.  I couldn't pull anything with pictures from the cached sites.
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RB
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« Reply #309 on: June 22, 2005, 09:55:21 PM »

I'm not debating it with you anymore, Perf - you feel the way you do, and I feel the way I do.  So be it.  We see this differently, so let's agree to disagree and go along our merry way, shall we?
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Dublin
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« Reply #310 on: June 22, 2005, 09:56:58 PM »

I still think it is worth looking at the security guard who was supposedly there when she was dropped off:

The add on the Tattoo's for sale web site does have a section on "Crime"
http://www.tattoopartycruises.com/pages/factfigures.html

"Crime  
Aruba remains a relatively small community that has managed to keep its crime to a minimum. While incidents do occur, Aruba still holds the destinction of being one of the safest island in the Caribbean. A recent cooperation between public and private sector has established a type of tourism police that monitors the main tourist areas to provide visibility to tourists (reassurance) and to discourage criminal behavior.
"

So, if I think about this, and dismiss any thread in my head about Joran and the boys and their inconsistent stories, and just focus on this for a minute. My mind says that a tourist, like NH, could be lulled into a sense of security in seeing one of these "security guards" near the hotel.  

I recall a series of articles about security guards in the US and how many of them actually had arrest records and in many cases women were being raped by the security guards businesses had hired to protect the office and it's staff:
1.
Guard arrested in man’s death
Felon illegally working at Walgreens shot shoplifting suspect, police say
By JOHN DIEDRICH
jdiedrich@journalsentinel.com
Posted: April 18, 2005
A convicted felon with a long, violent history who was working illegally as a security guard at Walgreens shot and killed an unarmed man accused of stealing sunglasses Sunday night, prompting a state investigation.


2.
Last December, a 41-year-old man sought a security guard's position at Allied Security Inc. The big contract-security company based in King of Prussia, Pa., hires about 16,000 guards a year to protect shopping malls, hospitals, universities, banks and other clients in 38 states.

The prospect seemed particularly promising because he had held a similar guard job with a rival company and lived in Philadelphia for four years. He showed up well-dressed and on time for his job interview. Most important, he twice swore in writing -- and again face-to-face -- that he had never been convicted of a criminal offense.

Allied Security hoped to assign the man to a local information-technology company. But the candidate was never hired. Carco Research, Allied's background-checking service, discovered that the man formerly lived in Michigan, where he had been convicted of drug dealing, sentenced to prison, then escaped, and was arrested and imprisoned again until his parole in 1996.

3.
http://mediafilter.org/caq/CAQ54p.police.html

An old Ethiopian Cultural practice involved abduction of a wife:
"In some regions of Ethiopia, abduction is an old cultural practice used to take a girl as wife by force. Typically, the girl is abducted by a group of young men. She is then raped by the man who wants to marry her, who may be someone she knows or may be a total stranger. The elders from the man's village then apologize to the family of the girl and ask them to agree to the marriage. The family often consents because a girl who has lost her virginity would be socially unacceptable for marriage to another man. Sometimes the abductor keeps the girl in a hiding place until she is pregnant, at which time her family feels it has no option but to agree to the marriage."

http://www.equalitynow.org/english/actions/action_2202_en.html

I suggest that perhaps .. just perhaps.. there could have been a security guard, who may have been of Ethiopian culture, or perhaps a Rasta who have an "Afro-Centric" culture and may imitate old cultures from pre-colonized societies in Africa.  

Could this individual have abducted her and have her held somewhere on the island as per the perceived cultural tradition would call for?  

Isn't that similar to the Elizabeth Smart abduction, and was that guy a rastafarian?  Didn't he abduct ES to make her his wife?  

It is a fairly regular practice in the Sudan as well, neighbors of Ethiopia. I am still looking for studies on the population of Aruba to determine the % of population that could be rasta or Ethiopian...



Special Groups and Slavery in Sudan

Nina Shea, U.S. Delegation
Remarks to the 57th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights
Geneva, Switzerland
April 11, 2001
 

Mr. Chairman:

My name is Nina Shea and I am a public member of the U.S. delegation, appointed by President George W. Bush. Our topic today -- special groups and individuals -- covers many issues of importance to the people and the government of the United States. Among these are the rights of ethnic and religious minorities, migrant workers, displaced persons, and contemporary forms of slavery. Each of these topics is worthy of discussion in its own right. I have spent most of my adult life working on them, and so I am honored to have the chance to address this forum on matters that are of great personal and professional interest to me.

The drafters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights believed that moral suasion, publicly exercised, could be a potent force for change. Since that time, reason, reporting, and dialogue have been the primary tools the Commission on Human Rights has used to spotlight the great moral, social and political issues of the day.

There is a great moral issue facing this Commission, Mr. Chairman, the systematic violation in Sudan of a long-standing, widely-recognized human rights norm. I am speaking of chattel slavery, and the way it is practiced in Sudan against women and children from racial, ethnic, and religious minorities.

Let us be absolutely clear: there is a major difference between the word "abduction" and the word "slavery." Abducting people means taking them away against their will. It implies nothing about what happens to them afterwards. Making slaves of people has everything to do with what happens to them afterwards. To be sure, both abductions and slavery do take place in Sudan. But there is slavery in Sudan, and this Commission must call it what it is -- slavery.

For the Commission to speak of abductions, therefore, and say nothing about slavery, as this year's resolution does, is to condemn the lesser violation and ignore the graver one completely. This is an abdication of the fundamental responsibility of this Commission to defend the universal human rights of every human being to life, liberty, and the security of person.

My government has made many interventions on slavery in Sudan in recent years, and our annual Country Reports on Human Rights Situations have repeatedly documented this abhorrent practice. But that is hardly all. In her December 1999 report, High Commissioner Robinson stated that Sudan was a country "where traditional slavery persists."

For the past 7 years, this Commission has had before it the annual reports of the UN Special Rapporteurs on Sudan. Each makes reference to slave-raids, details the treatment slaves endure, and emphasizes the Sudanese government's failure to put an end to this violence.

In the 1994 report, for example, the Special Rapporteur described how Dinka women and children were abducted by the government's Popular Defense Forces, the PDF, the Mujahedin and army units and then sold into slavery to northern Sudanese and persons from abroad.

The following year, the Special Rapporteur stated unequivocally that "the phenomena of slavery and practices assimilated to slavery… do exist in the Sudan." That report also noted the "total lack of interest shown so far by the competent Sudanese authorities with regard to investigating the cases brought to their knowledge over the past several years."

In 1996, the Special Rapporteur identified a pattern that "indicates a deliberate policy on the part of the government to ignore or even condone this practice of slavery." It goes on to state: "In most of the cases brought to the attention of the government of the Sudan, the reported perpetrators belong to the Sudanese army and the Popular Defense Forces, which are under the control of the government of the Sudan. Even in the cases involving members of different tribal militias, the slavery occurred within the context of the war and there are the same perpetrators and victims." He noted that women captured as "war booty" are in some cases subjected to "sexual slavery."

The 1999 report found: "There is enough consistent and credible information to ascertain the existence of slavery patterns in the Sudan." This same report also detailed the regime's arrangement with local militias and units of the Popular Defense Forces that escort the government's military supply train south toward the town of Wau. In return for their cooperation, he states, "the militia are allowed to carry out raids on neighboring villages and to keep the proceeds of looting as payment. The raids are very violent and the militia and PDF perpetrate killings, rape, and abductions of women and children. The women and children thus kidnapped are held until payment of ransom or are kept in conditions amounting to slavery." He also reported on forcible religious conversion.

He also described the "harsh" conditions for the victims, with "abuse, torture, rape and, at times, killing being the norm." They are "forced to herd cattle, work in the fields, fetch water, dig wells, do housework and perform sexual favors." Further, he stated, "the government is not taking measures to prevent or sanction the raids against civilian populations."
http://www.rastafarian.net/Sudan%20slavery.htm
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xcptnl
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« Reply #311 on: June 22, 2005, 09:57:17 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "xcptnl"
I had posted a while back and have been searching the web since then but thought someone in here might have better luck than I have.  About a week ago the Carlos N Charlies site had a different website.  They also had pictures posted and they were all dated for the day they were taken.  They apparently have a new website - is there anyway the old website might still be out there??  I know there is cached stuff but wasnt sure how it would work if they actually have a new one with the same URL.

The old site had pictures through May 22.  They took the whole site down before posting any more pictures as far as I know.  Now it's back up but no pictures.  I couldn't pull anything with pictures from the cached sites.


Caligirl wrote: I checked that right after the site went down. Cached version will not show pics for some reason.

Thanks to both of you - that stinks.  I knew when I had looked at it the pictures were from about a week earlier and I kept hoping that someone might just post pids from the day we all want to see.  Most likley they were taken by the police.
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absolut
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« Reply #312 on: June 22, 2005, 09:58:03 PM »

Quote from: "Perforator"
Quote from: "RB"
Quote from: "Perforator"
Quote from: "RB"
I think so. I don't think that interogatting the students that were with her about wether or not she was drunk is the correct aproach. She was last seen with the 3 in custody. They know what happened after they left. The students do not. If it was a case of accidental overdose or a drunk related accident the students still could not answer. Only the 3 they have in custody. See my point?

If she combined medications or perhaps some x, it surely is something those friends closest to her would know.  Girls talk, Perf.  A lot.  or didn't you know? Smile


Yes but your missing the point. How is that going to find out what happened to her? Even if her friends said she took ecstacy and was drinking like a fish will that give us the answer we are all looking for?
The answer lies with the 3 in custody.


No, I'm not missing the point. I'm not worried about an answer for me, I'm more concerned that Ms Holloway's mother gets the truth:  from both sides faster than it has occurred to date.


ok are you a politician?
Let me break it down for you my friend.
Lets just say one of the kids that were with her confess, yes Natalie was taking ecstacy and drinking heavily.
Will that confession lead us to finding Natalie?
No. It may shed some light into her state of mind at the time she left with Joran but it will not find Natalie.
Once again, the answer lies with the 3 in custody.
They may be totally innocent.
They may be guilty of negligence leaving a comatose woman on the beach.
Hell maybe they gang raped her and killed her I don't know.
Obviously the Aruban authorities believe they know something there not telling or they would have let them go.
Discussing wether or not the kids that were with her are witholding some valuable information, when it doesn't really matter, makes no sense.


If authorities could say with certainty to the suspects look we know what happen and you didn't do this. You only covered it up they may get to the answer much faster.
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Perforator
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« Reply #313 on: June 22, 2005, 09:58:08 PM »

Quote from: "RB"
I'm not debating it with you anymore, Perf - you feel the way you do, and I feel the way I do.  So be it.  We see this differently, so let's agree to disagree and go along our merry way, shall we?


My logic is perfect.  Very Happy
You can't deny it.
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heartache
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« Reply #314 on: June 22, 2005, 09:58:13 PM »

Quote from: "Perforator"
Quote from: "RB"
I think so. I don't think that interogatting the students that were with her about wether or not she was drunk is the correct aproach. She was last seen with the 3 in custody. They know what happened after they left. The students do not. If it was a case of accidental overdose or a drunk related accident the students still could not answer. Only the 3 they have in custody. See my point?

If she combined medications or perhaps some x, it surely is something those friends closest to her would know.  Girls talk, Perf.  A lot.  or didn't you know? Smile


Yes but your missing the point. How is that going to find out what happened to her? Even if her friends said she took ecstacy and was drinking like a fish will that give us the answer we are all looking for?
The answer lies with the 3 in custody.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Perforator ... Great Posting. Totally agree. The only time this is going to matter is in  the courtroom... to establish intent.  It is entirely possible that even IF a twosome , threesome or foursome occured on the beach it could have been consensual. It is entirely possible that NH WAS left on the beach asleep. It is entirely possible that someone other than Baby VDS and the Bros.  did something with her. Don't tell me that everyone in Aruba is tucked in tight by 12:00 a.m.
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chelsblu
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« Reply #315 on: June 22, 2005, 09:58:43 PM »

Update on Cannity and the guy with glasses and funky hairstyle

The family searchers are going to pinpoint a pond near the VDS house. It's obviously a dump site. Appliances , even a little truck in there??
Also talked about an area where an odor has been detected but I missed most of that.
THe search guy said that if Natalee was in the pond the dogs could sinff her out. Did ayone else get further details? I was kid of busy and not listening well.
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RB
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« Reply #316 on: June 22, 2005, 09:59:03 PM »

Quote from: "Perforator"
Quote from: "RB"
I'm not debating it with you anymore, Perf - you feel the way you do, and I feel the way I do.  So be it.  We see this differently, so let's agree to disagree and go along our merry way, shall we?


My logic is perfect.  Very Happy
You can't deny it.


LOl your logic is perfect, Perf.  You might want to take a class in negotiations though - it's easier to get something if you have something to offer....
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luna
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« Reply #317 on: June 22, 2005, 09:59:08 PM »

Quote from: "Perforator"
Quote from: "RB"
Quote from: "Perforator"
Quote from: "RB"
I think so. I don't think that interogatting the students that were with her about wether or not she was drunk is the correct aproach. She was last seen with the 3 in custody. They know what happened after they left. The students do not. If it was a case of accidental overdose or a drunk related accident the students still could not answer. Only the 3 they have in custody. See my point?

If she combined medications or perhaps some x, it surely is something those friends closest to her would know.  Girls talk, Perf.  A lot.  or didn't you know? Smile


Yes but your missing the point. How is that going to find out what happened to her? Even if her friends said she took ecstacy and was drinking like a fish will that give us the answer we are all looking for?
The answer lies with the 3 in custody.


No, I'm not missing the point. I'm not worried about an answer for me, I'm more concerned that Ms Holloway's mother gets the truth:  from both sides faster than it has occurred to date.


ok are you a politician?
Let me break it down for you my friend.
Lets just say one of the kids that were with her confess, yes Natalie was taking ecstacy and drinking heavily.
Will that confession lead us to finding Natalie?
No. It may shed some light into her state of mind at the time she left with Joran but it will not find Natalie.
Once again, the answer lies with the 3 in custody.
They may be totally innocent.
They may be guilty of negligence leaving a comatose woman on the beach.
Hell maybe they gang raped her and killed her I don't know.
Obviously the Aruban authorities believe they know something there not telling or they would have let them go.
Discussing wether or not the kids that were with her are witholding some valuable information, when it doesn't really matter, makes no sense.


You're making sense to me, perforator.
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Charmz
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« Reply #318 on: June 22, 2005, 09:59:53 PM »

Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I agree with "COCO" we have only been told the Story from the MSMedia. I dont know about you, but I haven't forgotten the Rather-Gate issue. Until we Hear form the Local Arubaian Authorities (Prosecutor) anything we hear is CONJECTURE at this point....I just find it hard to belive that an 17 year old kid could Hold up to a strenuoous Interogation for 2 weeks now..I don't think I could, do you ? Honest....question,,,honest answer..

GuyWdog


I just wonder, really, how strenuous the interrogaton really is.

Interegator:  So where did you leave her?

JVS:  On the beach.

Interegator:  Well, okay, but are you sure....
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mitzid66
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« Reply #319 on: June 22, 2005, 09:59:54 PM »

Even though everyone does not always agree here, I would like to thank all of you for such excellent theories and information.  The relaying of info on the current tv shows is also excellent.  I find more up to the minute info here than I can surfing through the news channels.

Keep up the good work!!!

Now to what I will proably take a beating for....

Would you folks give your opinions of how you feel that Arubans are doing on this case.  Are they forthright and honest?  Or protecting thier own?

I know this has been discussed earlier, however, we are now way into this investigation, nd I am curious as to how you feel now.  

Also, IF they are not handling this as well as they should, what do we as tourists in regards to traveling to Aruba in the future.  

please be kind.  I am only asking for opinions.  

Thank you and have a good night
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