Lively Case Discussion #507 8/6 - 8/7/2006

[mrs. red]

OK Monkeys... it's time for me to head for the hills.... I will be back in later... great work...

KEEP THE FAITH!!!

[Tylergal]

I think we can just rename Anita.  Madonna of Aruba.  She obviously feels she is Madonna as by its correct definition, but then was trying to create a little of the starlet impression by wearing the see-through-blouse.  Madonna of Aruba = Anita.

      I've missed you    

We miss you, too!

[Tylergal]

They "kept circling", but why?  Did it give the MB kids time to go where they were destined, time to get to their rooms, before they showed up with a drunken, drugged Natalee in tow, so they could get to Paulus' hiding place within the maze without being detected?  

Why did Beth move from the Holiday Inn to the Wyndham and WHY did Dave choose to stay at the HI?  Was he trying to keep a watchful eye out?  Why did Jug spent so much time in the casino?  Was he trying to observe what went on and get information?  I tell you, Jug ain't nobody's fool.

[nonesuche]

and why did viet vet make a point of stating how their rooms were 'disturbed' during their absence, and also being run off the road while on the island? I have those posts saved, I'll look now and try to post some of that again.

[Anna]

But None wouldn't it just be such an easy way out to say that the confession exceeded the time?

She was prolly told to say something about the time limit by PVDS

FM-

That is exactly the point I was hoping someone else would make, I'm so scattered lately I don't trust my own recall to be what it used to.

I have no doubt that once Paulus was barred from visitation that he coached Anita what to say, when she visited.

The confession occurred after 8 p.m., I believe is the time but I am not sure.  I am sure Anna has that if she pops in here.

Yes, it was van der Straaten who cried foul and withdrew any confession on behalf of Joran.  These kids would NEVER have been allowed to confess regardless of when the confession might have been made.

Uncle Jan and Uncle Ben were there to see to it that no confessions were made even if they were if you follow.  Van der Straaten admitted to other members of ALE that something bad happened and they took Joran to show them where.  

But keep in mind Joran "confessed" that DEEPAK did it and "We buried her" near the fisherman's huts.  Not much of a confession to confess that somebody else did it.

Anyway, van der Straaten did not have the notes transcribed until June 13 and by then, he had conferred with Paulus or whomever he was working in concert with and all that about who did what to Natalee was just missing from the transcription.  But initially, van der Straaten said that the information could not be used because it was taken after too many hours of interrogation of Joran. I never understood if he meant too many hours on the clock or too many hours on Joran.

There will not be a record of Joran retracting any confession because Uncle Jan took care of it all for him.  

At least this is how I remember it and it was VERY interesting at the time.  I was paying very close attention.

[Kat_Gram]

They called in the best from the very beginning to denigrate and obfuscate:  Rizzo is the person who was called in to do this.  He is known for planting false evidence, misleading an investigation.  It's old Chicago type mob work, paid for by Posner.

Yes, Rizzo was in this pretty early, wasn't he. Did he work for Joe T, Paulus or Posner or all three ?

[Easywriter]

sharon-

You and I agree, I think Paulus out-maneuvered Jassen and the ALE at every turn.

Good to see you too

I tend to agree with that observation.  I think of Paulus as sort of a clerk of the works and he is very familiar with the legal technicalities of the Dutch law.  Much more so than Janssen, who probably looked at this gig in Aruba as a vacation until she got a real job back in the homeland.  And, much, much more so than the ALE that spend most of their time dealing with car wrecks and picking up the bodies that seem to get strewn around the island.

He had them at every turn and he had the ear of at least one judge.

[San]

sharon-

You and I agree, I think Paulus out-maneuvered Jassen and the ALE at every turn.

Good to see you too

The reason Paulus outmaneuvered Janssen and the ALE is because he had inside help with the likes of Van der Straaten, Vocking.  He is not as smart as everyone thinks he is.  He also has his good buddy the lawyer who helped him get out of prison and I also believe he contacted the famous lawyer Sponge in the Netherlands.  Plus the 10 other lawyers he hired for the suspects.  What I would like to know was Paulus' good friend Ari was preset at the pool side meeting.

[San]

They "kept circling", but why?  Did it give the MB kids time to go where they were destined, time to get to their rooms, before they showed up with a drunken, drugged Natalee in tow, so they could get to Paulus' hiding place within the maze without being detected?  

Why did Beth move from the Holiday Inn to the Wyndham and WHY did Dave choose to stay at the HI?  Was he trying to keep a watchful eye out?  Why did Jug spent so much time in the casino?  Was he trying to observe what went on and get information?  I tell you, Jug ain't nobody's fool.

You got that right Tyler.

[nonesuche]

Forgive the length but I saved many of viet vet's posts and it might be a good time to revisit some of these. They are as follows:

viet vet Says:
April 21st, 2006 at 12:12 pm
I was not fishing terryd270……. The boy who took Natalie to the prom is my son.
__________
SM: How is your son handling all of this? Hope he’s doing OK. (klaasend)

viet vet Says:
April 21st, 2006 at 12:22 pm
I went to Aruba to help Jug and Beth. There is a group of us who hunt, fish, and golf together. If you had been down there when were you would understand the reason this is such a mess. Those people ran a big-time cover up from the beginning. The tourist chief wanted her to never be found to protect their tourism, Van der Straaten wanted to protect his god-child (Joran), everyone else wanted money. The end result will be very bad for Aruba unless they find Natalee and prosecute the criminals. Who knows what they are doing now, but they best get their act together. The financial considerations are huge. They are going broke, because of stupidity. Beth did not talk to Natalee, Renfro is a fruit cake, nearly got us killed.
 
April 21, at 6:59 pm
I will try to be more helpful with the facts for you folks, you certainly have worked long and hard for Natalee, and we do appreciate it. Aruba is a strange place, on my trips there, I met some really nice people, they agree with all of us totally but they are not in control. Aruba is controlled by a small group who can do as they please. This has gone on for years. I could not understand what made some of them think we Americans are so in love with them or the island. Prostitution is legal, they bring in young girls from South America and change them out every 3 or 4 months. The kids who have families in power do not go for the prostitutes, they want tourists. I was told that they really get away with this sort of thing regularly. Natalee had drug sensitivities. Her family uses one of my drug stores and there were many things she was not able to take because of the drug allergies. The only way she would have gotten drugged up was by Joran, the bartender or someone else. She knew not to take anything for fear of a bad reaction. All of the spin artists are telling lies about her buying/using drugs. If she had drugs in was unknown to her. She was a very smart girl. People like Renfro, that fellow Charles and many of the others are using this to get on the news and try to make money later from it. As much as everyone talks about how they lie, it is at least 10 times greater than one could ever imagine. I do think they have a few honest police personnel, but they have to be very careful, van der Straaten or Dompig ruled with a heavy hand. There is no doubt, the truth will come out. They made mistakes; people know but are afraid to talk. But fear only lasts so long. The longer they wait the worse it is on their economy and the drug traffic. Paulus may own land in the United States, he gets money somewhere, not from work, and they are spending a bundle on lawyers. I will try to keep my posts shorter in the future. Keep it up folks, we are going to win.

Posted at April 21, 2006 7:09 pm:
Natalee could not have called home on her cell phone. You must have your cell provider add international calling to be able to get a call in or out. It is not easy to do from down there and it cost a fee to have it done. That would be very easy to check, just look at the phone bill. I had a heck of time getting international calling added to my cell phone. It had to be done here in the United States. My wife had it added for me when I was in Aruba and it took a couple of days for it to get operational. They are lying and bluffing when they say Natalee called. The other MB kids did not have their phones placed on international calling either, and I don’t really think they carried their phones to Aruba.

April 21, 2006 7:55 pm
 The phones for rent in Aruba are not set for international calling. I had 2 phones stolen in Aruba and had to use one of their rental phones. They are the very inexpensive types that are set for so many minutes, we have them here to rent also. We were followed the entire time we were in Aruba. Got run off the road once, had to run through a ditch. My head hit the top of the car,,,did not have the seat belt tight enough. Yeah one happy island, safe, no crime. And they check on your room at odd times. Like when you are at dinner, or on one of the many bad tips they provide for you.

viet vet Says:
April 22nd, 2006 at 8:52 am
Someone mentioned, maybe we should have spent more time hitting the crack houses. We hit everyone on the island, some more than once. The people in those houses were pathetic. There were straws, aluminum foil, and smoking bottles everywhere. We felt they were bogus tips, but ran down every one. ALE stood back and watched, hoping we would tire and leave. When I say ALE, I think it was more the people in charge at the time, van der Straaten, Jacobs, and maybe Dompig. Things changed when the 2 black guards were arrested. We new those guys had nothing to do with it, they had people with them when she went missing. From then on, we watched the 3 suspects and the police. No need looking where we know she isn’t. I found the crack house people to be in poor health, totally broke, and in no way interested in attractive tourist girls. Only the people who had some money and an ego to feed were interested in our girls and I mean all our girls. This will be a dangerous place until all the bad guys in ALE and government positions are removed, flushed, or exposed to the world. We continue to watch the ones responsible.

viet vet Says:
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:09 am
I will try to answer as many questions as possible, and would enjoy being on the forum. I find no ill will between Beth and Dave. They were divorced long ago, long before Jug met Beth. I like Dave, he is a very nice fellow and so are his brothers and sister. During the early hours of running down leads and searching, everyone had a different mission. Dave, his wife,his brother in law (another very good person), and brothers and sister were mostly involved in the land search, Jug and Beth answered phone calls, met with ALE and investigators that had been hired by them, and we hit the crack houses and caves. Beth had her family there too, and they worked very hard. Her brother Paul stayed busy trying to get the message out about what was going on. Team effort. It was the most effective way to cover the island in a speedy manner, in hopes of finding Natalee alive. I really think it worked out well. Often we all met and went over data, maps, and the never ending bogus tips. When something terrible like this happens, it units people rather than splitting them into different camps. We are all on the same page. Someone asked about the houses of prostitution, they are not near the area tourist would frequent. Mostly they are in small, old hotels in some of the older villages. I am not certain who would attend these places, but probably not tourist or the higher ranking people of Aruba. It is a different envirnoment to the USA (thank goodness), nothing seems to be illegal. I never saw a blue light flash the whole time I was there. No enforcement of laws = no crime. Everyone in the area I live thought this to be a safe place, you know one happy island. The tourist area is very small and you would never see this sinister side unless you go out and seek. My personal idea is they drugged Natalee, like they had dozens of times before, and the drug probably killed her. They then hit the panic button and there is no telling how many crooked officials got involved to save the privileged kids and protect tourism. They really got mad when some of us made posters that read….kidnapped. They want it to be a missing person forever. However, Americans are not stupid, we will not go there as much, and even more scary for them, not invest in hotels and restaurants/cafes/bars. I know of several projects that have been put on hold, big projects, like millions for building more hotels. I think they have all they need. I do feel sorry for the average man and woman on the street, they work hard every day and had nothing to do with these crooks. Their day will come, vote all the people out of office if they don’t perform. Thanks folks for the work you have done and are doing, makes me glad to be among you……M

viet vet Says:
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:03 pm
Frank, it is great to inform the people of Aruba. Not only great but only fair, they need to know about what is going on with the investigation. I hope ALE is on the right trail now, they were not before. This thing will be solved I hope. The building up of hotels in the area around HI and Marriot is moving slower isn’t it. Do you know if the US is still building a refueling facility next to the airport? The US needs it, but it is not moving as fast as it should. I do not mean to drag down Aruba, just those responsible for Natalee’s demise. I have a great deal of respect for Jossy, the night manager of the HI, and Claudio at the airport, and thousands more who were so helpful. I say again, the whole incident is probably a gang rape involving teenagers that went wrong. My first thought when I got there back on June 1,2005 was on my god this kid is only 17, not a good age to good quick decisions. Now we have GVC, and who knows how many more. What a circus, I could not make up a story this bizarre. Good editorial Frank.

viet vet Says:
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Sorry Eleye, was out for a few , but I do not know the answer you are asking about the passage in Dave’s book and the old man from Texas and the Lion’s Den. Dave lives in Meridian, was in Birmingham yesterday, but he was very busy. I will try to find out for you, may take a couple of days. I will be out of town the rest of the weekend. I am sure Dave would answer it for you. Will find out what I can, I agree with you folks, just have a feeling something is getting ready to happen. Hope so.

[flyingmermaid]

I think we can just rename Anita.  Madonna of Aruba.  She obviously feels she is Madonna as by its correct definition, but then was trying to create a little of the starlet impression by wearing the see-through-blouse.  Madonna of Aruba = Anita.

Tyler calling her the Madonna of anything is insulting to the Mother of Jesus and to the talented Pop Icon as well.

But lets back off for the religious implications OK?

[Tylergal]

They called in the best from the very beginning to denigrate and obfuscate:  Rizzo is the person who was called in to do this.  He is known for planting false evidence, misleading an investigation.  It's old Chicago type mob work, paid for by Posner.

Yes, Rizzo was in this pretty early, wasn't he. Did he work for Joe T, Paulus or Posner or all three ?

He was hired by Posner, but worked for Paulus, is my understanding.

[Anna]

Notice how early on Posner put himself out ahead of the story by his public gratuities but that had nothing to do with what was going on behind the scenes.  I am not saying Posner had one single thing to do with the acquisition of Natalee, just saying he DID NOT WANT THE BAD publicity of this happening at the HI.  That would cast a light on him from the government who he does not want looking down into his dealings, as he is already a convicted criminal who might be ready for strike 3.

Yes, and why was he so angry about the release of the casino tapes?

[/b]BINGO.

Better yet, why didn't Posner volunteer and release ALL of the tapes from that night from all camera angles??  

Huummm We would know if that was indeed one Paulus vSloot hitting on Natalee for one thing.  There was already a bill before the House in Congress to make his online gambling illegal in the U.S. to prosecute credit card companies for billing for it.  

Not only is Big Mike facing Strike 3, but also a substantial cut in income.  Bad publicity is the last thing he wants about now.  The bill passed the house and is headed for the Senate when they return.  Posner has more riding on this than most in the entire world.  It is a VERY big deal to him.

But he had ALL the casino tapes from all angles.  Why did he not release all of them?  Did he give them to ALE?  I bet not.  I bet he claims they we3re recorded over.  I bet the Security Team backs him up on that, too.

.

[Tylergal]

and why did viet vet make a point of stating how their rooms were 'disturbed' during their absence, and also being run off the road while on the island? I have those posts saved, I'll look now and try to post some of that again.

ANOTHER BINGO MOMENT.  Follow the money.  Posner has it.

[flyingmermaid]

Been alot of insults and name calling to the suspects and thir families today here.

JMHO

[Tylergal]

sharon-

You and I agree, I think Paulus out-maneuvered Jassen and the ALE at every turn.

Good to see you too

The reason Paulus outmaneuvered Janssen and the ALE is because he had inside help with the likes of Van der Straaten, Vocking.  He is not as smart as everyone thinks he is.  He also has his good buddy the lawyer who helped him get out of prison and I also believe he contacted the famous lawyer Sponge in the Netherlands.  Plus the 10 other lawyers he hired for the suspects.  What I would like to know was Paulus' good friend Ari was preset at the pool side meeting.

  EXACTLY.  

[igsigs]

Great question by Hammer and ensuing discussion re staying with HI lie.

Knowing thru Deepak that he was having meetings EVERY day with Paulus and Joran...including a 4 hour cram session the night before the arrest...it is surprising they stayed with a blown story. And beyond incriminating.

It tells me that Paulus was confident that he had control of the evidence(note ludicrous break in HI tape lie) and the story(arrest of SGs). ALE was in a tight spot. They had proclaimed they had "evidence" that the SGs were involved and had disposed/ignored evidence related to J2K.

Paulus had em right where he wanted them. If only Natalee's family and the media would go away. But they didn't.

[nonesuche]

Been alot of insults and name calling to the suspects and thir families today here.

JMHO

FM-

I was guilty of that yesterday, thanks for keeping us on the high road  

[Anna]

sharon-

You and I agree, I think Paulus out-maneuvered Jassen and the ALE at every turn.

Good to see you too

The reason Paulus outmaneuvered Janssen and the ALE is because he had inside help with the likes of Van der Straaten, Vocking.  He is not as smart as everyone thinks he is.  He also has his good buddy the lawyer who helped him get out of prison and I also believe he contacted the famous lawyer Sponge in the Netherlands.  Plus the 10 other lawyers he hired for the suspects.  What I would like to know was Paulus' good friend Ari was preset at the pool side meeting.

Heck, San,
I'd like to know if Karin Janssen was present at the poolside meeting!  Or did Paulu just get the game plan from her that day at the courthouse?

 

[Tylergal]

Been alot of insults and name calling to the suspects and thir families today here.

JMHO

Yes, I am really concerned about that.  We sure do not want to put Joran, Deepak and the PIMPs (they call themselves that, so it's fair game) through anymore than they have already been put through.