RBN #21 - 6/24/05 Wee Hours of The Morning

[inthepacific]

Well, the only way it could be pre-meditated is what??????  What would be the scenario that would make it pre-meditated??????

They sexually assaulted her and were afraid that she might tell, then thought they had to get rid of her(killed her)?

Or, they knowingly gave her drugs to rape her and they killed her by overdose?

[Getagrip]

Ocicat -- thanks, that was the one show I had not tried for the video.

I did watch it. I am baffled.

I think Beth Twitty looks abosolutely exhausted and at her wit's end. I did not hear her say that she had any facts to back up her claim that Natalee was kidnapped -- I heard her say often that she 'felt', 'knew', had 'intuition' but nothing that makes me believe she has real information.

Just my take on things - I hope I am misinterpreting, but to me she just looked like a desperate mother grasping at straws. (I really, really hope I'm wrong.)

Now, I don't want to piss anyone off, but I haven't seen that woman break since the get go...how can she be strong??? This is what I can't believe! Is it her religious faith that has kept her strong???

I am not a religious person so I can't understand her strength in all of this. She has held up tremendously ever since she arrived on Aruba. Someone help me understand this behaviour by Mrs. Hollaway/Twitty.

I watched her on CNN tonight, with a cameraman in the back of her car...she is driving around the island!!! She dropped a person off/or picked someone up at the airport there. Answered her cell phone, told her TUG, I love you...and all the while she seemed just too much together.

I'm not running her down, but I guess I don't understand the strength and courage she is showing in all of this....

 

It's the first time she has looked exhausted..and she even said it was the first morning she wasn't sure if she could get out of bed. BUT, she's usually so articulate and and reliable in her comments...that's what made the kidnapping comments so shocking.  She very clearly states the "others" who she suspects will be arrested are also the same people who are keeping her on the island.

One thing I thought of is she's so firm on her belief Natalee's alive, she may have been trapped after she used the word kidnapping...meaning the three took Natalee...so where do you go from there?  If she thinks she's alive and also been taken by several, you gotta go the extra step of saying these people have her on the island alive.

Really don't know...it was a very different Beth Twitty interview IMO.

I didn't watch that interview Nancy, was looking for it and somebody provided a link to it on Fox but I still couldn't find it. I would have liked to watch that. Perhaps this is why she is holding up so well, she knows something we do not. If she thinks Natalee is alive, she may have good reason to believe, that from her sources within this investigation, they have told her they believe she is alive and being held captive somewhere.

I think I posted the link for you, or someone.

Go to the link and look at the top right...there's a heading that says something like "FREE FOX VIDEOS"  below it is a picture of Beth and a link to the video.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160486,00.html

You won't see the box unless your screen is open all the way. I just noticed my bookmarks are open now and I had to scroll to the right to see the box.

Sorry Nancy, still not finding it on that page. At the top right of that page is offered "videos" I clicked on that but not interview with beth there. Who was interviewing her?

Try this link and see if it works.

[dl3fan]

We haven't heard much about the texas equusearch group today.  Someone (who was near Houston I believe) posted last night that some members were shown live on local tv flying out.  Also, if they are/were having trouble getting their dogs down there can we assume they won't be taking their horses?

[inspector_detector]

With the interview with Larry King Live, the spokes person for attourney general in aruba, it seems the word for PVDS arrest is....REASONABLE SUSPICION OF PRE-MEDITATED MURDER,(the same as the other 4 arrested)...like Red has noted on the main page.

Interesting, very interesting.

Hmmm. Could be that they have reasonable suspicion of premeditated murder, manslaughter, or the equivalent thereof, kidnapping, etc. As I recall, they seem to group the possibilities together when they make arrests. Not sure it means they necessarily think that it was a premeditated murder. Or am I wrong this time?

It means they dont have anything at all, its like hey Joran we arrested your dad and if you don't start confessing were gonna arrest your mom too.

[Juvenal]

Well, the only way it could be pre-meditated is what??????  What would be the scenario that would make it pre-meditated??????

They sexually assaulted her and were afraid that she might tell, then thought they had to get rid of her(killed her)?

Or, they knowingly gave her drugs to rape her and they killed her by overdose?

That second scenario wouldn't be murder 1. But about the most heinous example of 2nd degree I can think of. (If this had happened in the states, that is).

[inthepacific]

I apologize if this is off topic, but did any of you see the segment on Nancy Grace tonight where they talked about the released transcript of Couey's confession in the Jessica Lunsford case?

Yes, very disturbing details  

[nancy_drew]

I suggest you not give up on this. I thought I remembered someone in Aruba knowing of this person? Can they help confirm the last name? Are they listed in a directory?  Or, phone book?  Or real estate tax roll?   I'm not sure how pubic records work in Aruba, in this country you can usually find some online for free...at least SS records.  It's pretty easy in this country to do great research on someone online and with phone calls to access public records...not sure there.  Maybe some of our Arubans would  give you info on that.

One thing to remember. Quite often the story you started out with evolves into a completely different story.  Say you can't link up the possible relationship to Paulas..but, in your research you find this guy was interviewed and you find a new piece of evidence on the connections LE is making in solving this case.  THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE....many times research can confirm what you origninally thought..or, it can take you into another interesting direction.

Find out how records work in Aruba.  Are they made as public as they are here?  If not, see if there's an easy way to confirm some of the basic details on this guy. Ask around to see if there's someone down there willing to make a few bucks doing a search for you.  Offer to buy them dinner...

You can PM me or email me...I'm not a wizard but I can help you problem solve if you need it.

Good luck.

I'm not sure why you are pushing forum members to insert themselves into an ongoing criminal investigation ... not good, not good at all!  We should never do anything invasive or intrusive in trying to figure out how the puzzle pieces fit!  Aaaggh!  Stumbling onto something that tips off a bad guy is not right!  

Helping LE is fine, and I send info in all the time, but they know more than we do!  I just try to be an extra pair of eyes and an extra brain for them, not arms and legs!  Nooooo!  This is *just* a public forum--we don't have the backing of a major media outlet, who would have the insurance to cover the bad things that could happen with Joe Citizen out there gumshoeing or possibly libeling or slandering someone.  Uh-uh!

Investigative reporters do it everyday...Bloggers do it everyday. Some of the best research and political breaking news stories in recent months have come from investigative bloggers.  Media, journalists, independent reporters, etc. are all meant to be the watchdog of government, that includes LE...if someone here has a story, they should use their freedom of speech and power of the pen to research it and write it.  So what if it doesn't break the case.  Or, what if their research is truly a help to investigators?

The wave of blogging and journalism is independent news.

I do agree LE probably knows 10 times what we know...they're way ahead of anything we think are huge scoops...but, sometimes they're not...the benefit of a forum like this is sometimes individuals feel more comfortable coming here with info, they aren't ready to share with authorities. I'm not saying it's right...but, it's true.

Keep on doing your research!  In the least you could have yourself a nice story to publish on Scared Monkeys or Dan's site.

[AzRose]

no van rijn in aruba phone book
only van gijn is auto rental agency,  no vw dealer by that name, no residence

Thanks iquitos.

[6prs'o'klompen]

Sooo out of no where..mainly because I was looking on the ISA site for names...

Sad, Joran was honor roll as well his brother. How could they be avid partiers and keep those grades?

Random thought.. sorry, just makes me wonder how this all got to this point.

Mom's a teach at ISA?  Sorry, couldn't resist a low blow  

good point though

[Juvenal]

With the interview with Larry King Live, the spokes person for attourney general in aruba, it seems the word for PVDS arrest is....REASONABLE SUSPICION OF PRE-MEDITATED MURDER,(the same as the other 4 arrested)...like Red has noted on the main page.

Interesting, very interesting.

Hmmm. Could be that they have reasonable suspicion of premeditated murder, manslaughter, or the equivalent thereof, kidnapping, etc. As I recall, they seem to group the possibilities together when they make arrests. Not sure it means they necessarily think that it was a premeditated murder. Or am I wrong this time?

It means they dont have anything at all, its like hey Joran we arrested your dad and if you don't start confessing were gonna arrest your mom too.

inspector, afraid that you might be right.

[BlueBob]

I can see pre-meditated in the first scenario, but in the second. . .that would be stretching it.  But legal terms there may include different things than here.

[inspector_detector]

Sooo out of no where..mainly because I was looking on the ISA site for names...

Sad, Joran was honor roll as well his brother. How could they be avid partiers and keep those grades?

Random thought.. sorry, just makes me wonder how this all got to this point.

His mom said that he didn't want to get out of bed in the morning. I guess if you're out in the casinos till 3:00am, yeah it might be hard to wake-up!

Yeah but honor roll??? lol

Maybe playing blackjack helped him in math!

[iquitos]

Wake me up when it is over.

I find the whole picture ugly and getting uglier.

First American teens are sent to an island where the prime reason for going is gambling, booze and the ready availability of drugs and prostitutes, oh yes and a nice beach and reasonable rooms are thrown in to cover the primary motive.

Then Natalee, who is not prepared to be on her own, having been under the thumb of a domineering mother for 18 years, is suddenly set free and makes some really bad decisions.

Then Joran who has had too little direction in life and may have serious problems with controlling his own behavior crosses paths with easy prey, and who knows what happened.

Throw in an incompetent Aruban beauracy and a legal system straight out of the dark ages, not to mention a predatory US press pressuring for quick results, and you have this circus that we all watch, somewhat like the great Roman circuses, complete with Christians and lions.  

And this is our entertainment, we voyuers of violence and depravity. What will be the next big mess that fixates us?

good post  aunt twitty said today natalee has been in the family since 7 years.  holloway has a 7 year old by his new wife.  when did they jug/beth divorce?  did natalee stay with mom or dad?  can you imagine laid back patient and considerate holloway married to beth?

[Getagrip]

This is the only instance where I could see premeditated murder applied:

- Joran calls Kelpoes for a lift

- roofied NH at some point

- death of NH, due to roofies possibly in conjunction with alcohol previously consumed

Then again, I'm just as confused as the rest of you by the latest developments.

[Juvenal]

I apologize if this is off topic, but did any of you see the segment on Nancy Grace tonight where they talked about the released transcript of Couey's confession in the Jessica Lunsford case?

Yes, very disturbing details  

I thought that words would fail the talking heads and experts she trotted out. It seemed that it almost did at a couple of points, but they went ahead and talked anyway.

How can you even find words to describe this, without making a mockery of it? This is the worst case like this I've ever heard of.

It almost makes we want to go into LE/criminal prosecution as a career.

[BlueBob]

They both seem married to people that fit them well now, though.

[waitingtoknow]

Hi 6 prs....(sorry, I am more of a football fan)

Waiting, yes I did get your PM but I have been on the road all day. Give me awhile (or maybe Cali has something?)

Thanks Kerin.

Cali, do you happen to have a link to Max Arends?

http://connect.tickle.com/profile/index.html?id=PZBg5CRvFQPGDGKF

THANK YOU CALI!!  I knew one of you would have it!!

[inspector_detector]

no van rijn in aruba phone book
only van gijn is auto rental agency,  no vw dealer by that name, no residence

Thanks iquitos.

The Aruban bloggers arubagirl and americaninaruba seemed to know who this guy is. arubagirl spelled it Van Rijn. americaninaruba spelled it Van Geijn. Perhaps if you PM those bloggers they can help you.

[AzRose]

This is the only instance where I could see premeditated murder applied:

- Joran calls Kelpoes for a lift

- roofied NH at some point

- death of NH, due to roofies possibly in conjunction with alcohol previously consumed

Then again, I'm just as confused as the rest of you by the latest developments.

In order for it to be premeditated, would they not have to prove that they knowingly gave her so much of the drug that it would be lethal?

[Itawamba]

"Gijn" doesn't even sound like "Rijn," except they "rhyme" like "Rhine," lol.  But there IS a lady named "van Rijn" listed in Aruba, which fits with the name of a widow, an older one who still has a land line with a phone listing.  

I can understand all the youngers being hard-to-find because of their cell phones, but that one fit and I liked the irony of a possible earlier liaison of Paulus's in Holland being later married to a distant offspring of Rembrandt--then Paulus marrying an art teacher.  It was just so symmetrical!

Bah.  Pish tosh.