RBN #21 - 6/24/05 Wee Hours of The Morning

[Juvenal]

I have had to fight really hard in life/death situations for loved ones.  Even the meekest person will fight like a mother bear for someone she loves.  I really get the impression that Beth is a good mother to Natalee and her determination now shouldn't be taken as an overbearing mother in normal times.

Took this out of the Bible: (Hosea 13:8 )

I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

Loose translation: Nobody kicks a** like a mother who has her cub stolen!

[Bamagal73]

This is the only instance where I could see premeditated murder applied:

- Joran calls Kelpoes for a lift

- roofied NH at some point

- death of NH, due to roofies possibly in conjunction with alcohol previously consumed

Then again, I'm just as confused as the rest of you by the latest developments.

In order for it to be premeditated, would they not have to prove that they knowingly gave her so much of the drug that it would be lethal?

Yeah, I probably didn't explain myself properly. I'm starting to get bleary eyed (and bleary brained?)  from all this reading.

If JVDS's intention all along was to administer roofies to have his way (that was the night's plan), and NH died from an adverse reaction (she was tiny at 5'3" and 110 lbs, and we don't know how much or how long she had been drinking), and after this happening, he disposed of the body...

...I'm by no means a lawyer or any kind of legal/criminal expert, but I'd say this case would be tried as 1st degree, no?

Accidental death with improper disposal of corpse?

I don't think that administering rohypnol is legal. Can't it be likened to administering poison?  In both cases, you don't know what dosage can kill.  Esp. the case when mixed with alcohol.

In any case, I think we're trying to make the distinction between premeditated and not?

That's why I stated 'Accidental" death, as for premeditated.  I highly doubt it.

[CaliGirl]

Here's a late-night-outside-the-box thought....

Does Joran's cell phone have a built-in camera?

Who knows Scott but the police took that out of his house too.

[6prs'o'klompen]

Well, if he did give her a roofie, you would think they could at least charge him with practicing medicine without a license....
Why would he stoop to that though?
I'm sure there are plenty of horny tourists to go around there.  I'm sure he could have found a "willing" one.

[iquitos]

Rijn Deborah T VanFahrenheitstraat 19..............................582-1391

[Itawamba]

no van rijn in aruba phone book
only van gijn is auto rental agency,  no vw dealer by that name, no residence

Thanks iquitos.

Yes, there is a Deborah vR on Fahrenheit Street.



(I figured that means she is HOT, HOT, HOT, right?)  (Oops, that might be Lorenzo's mother we're talking about.)

[iquitos]

Well, if he did give her a roofie, you would think they could at least charge him with practicing medicine without a license....
Why would he stoop to that though?
I'm sure there are plenty of horny tourists to go around there.  I'm sure he could have found a "willing" one.

that's what i can't figure out unless they were looking for some serial group activity  can't get my head around it.

[Getagrip]

I wouldn't call a death from rohypnol 'accidental' by any means.

In any case, regarding the premeditated murder possibility, I think the Aruban authorities have a PR disaster on their hands, they will lean towards the harshest charge. Just my opinion.

[CaliGirl]

What I don't get, is it was said by Natalee's friend's she introduced herself to Joran. So it's not like he persued her, stalked her, plotted something etc.

I find that odd.

[Itawamba]

Rijn Deborah T VanFahrenheitstraat 19..............................582-1391

We posted at the same time.  We're not supposed to publish individuals' home phone numbers.

[LouLou]

The Dark side has some interesting things to say about the case. There are about 3 articles that I've read. They are more reflective than factual reporting but the man has an excellent writing style.

Todays blog is about Carlos n. Charlies. this is the link

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/cat_the_vanishing_of_natalee_holloway.html

[LilOrphan]

no van rijn in aruba phone book
only van gijn is auto rental agency,  no vw dealer by that name, no residence

Thanks iquitos.

Yes, there is a Deborah vR on Fahrenheit Street.



(I figured that means she is HOT, HOT, HOT, right?)  (Oops, that might be Lorenzo's mother we're talking about.)

Fahrenheit Street?  Is Michael Moore gonna answer?

[Getagrip]

The Dark side has some interesting things to say about the case. There are about 3 articles that I've read. They are more reflective than factual reporting but the man has an excellent writing style.

Todays blog is about Carlos n. Charlies. this is the link

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/cat_the_vanishing_of_natalee_holloway.html

That's where I saw the monkey!

[iquitos]

I wouldn't call a death from rohypnol 'accidental' by any means.

In any case, regarding the premeditated murder possibility, I think the Aruban authorities have a PR disaster on their hands, they will lean towards the harshest charge. Just my opinion.

 

if they can stretch this thing out for 160 days beth and jug may tire and need to get back to work.  then they can have a prolonged trail or even drop charges.  i agree with a guy from larry king and a poster here that they may be grasping at straws and desperate for somebody to confess even though they might not have the right guy/s

[AzRose]

This is the only instance where I could see premeditated murder applied:

- Joran calls Kelpoes for a lift

- roofied NH at some point

- death of NH, due to roofies possibly in conjunction with alcohol previously consumed

Then again, I'm just as confused as the rest of you by the latest developments.

In order for it to be premeditated, would they not have to prove that they knowingly gave her so much of the drug that it would be lethal?

Yeah, I probably didn't explain myself properly. I'm starting to get bleary eyed (and bleary brained?)  from all this reading.

If JVDS's intention all along was to administer roofies to have his way (that was the night's plan), and NH died from an adverse reaction (she was tiny at 5'3" and 110 lbs, and we don't know how much or how long she had been drinking), and after this happening, he disposed of the body...

...I'm by no means a lawyer or any kind of legal/criminal expert, but I'd say this case would be tried as 1st degree, no?

Accidental death with improper disposal of corpse?

I don't think that administering rohypnol is legal. Can't it be likened to administering poison?  In both cases, you don't know what dosage can kill.  Esp. the case when mixed with alcohol.

In any case, I think we're trying to make the distinction between premeditated and not?

So, how do you think the elder VDS fit into this equation?   They are all being held under premeditation theory.

[Getagrip]

This is the only instance where I could see premeditated murder applied:

- Joran calls Kelpoes for a lift

- roofied NH at some point

- death of NH, due to roofies possibly in conjunction with alcohol previously consumed

Then again, I'm just as confused as the rest of you by the latest developments.

In order for it to be premeditated, would they not have to prove that they knowingly gave her so much of the drug that it would be lethal?

Yeah, I probably didn't explain myself properly. I'm starting to get bleary eyed (and bleary brained?)  from all this reading.

If JVDS's intention all along was to administer roofies to have his way (that was the night's plan), and NH died from an adverse reaction (she was tiny at 5'3" and 110 lbs, and we don't know how much or how long she had been drinking), and after this happening, he disposed of the body...

...I'm by no means a lawyer or any kind of legal/criminal expert, but I'd say this case would be tried as 1st degree, no?

Accidental death with improper disposal of corpse?

I don't think that administering rohypnol is legal. Can't it be likened to administering poison?  In both cases, you don't know what dosage can kill.  Esp. the case when mixed with alcohol.

In any case, I think we're trying to make the distinction between premeditated and not?

So, how do you think the elder VDS fit into this equation?   They are all being held under premeditation theory.

If they (not sure who 'they' are yet) get tried as a group, and VDS the elder helped dispose of the body, that's where I imagine he would fit in.

[Vole]

They should just put the whole island under arrest, save a lot of time.
I have tremendous admiration for Beth Twitty, she did look very tired tonight. I am sure when she is alone at night with her husband is when she falls apart. My prayers are with her that God continues to give her the stength that she will need to see this to the end. I hope Natalee is found soon.

[CaliGirl]

::::listening to crickets:::::

Hellooooo? lol

[neil]

Juvenal,

Actually I think it is fair.  When people are under stress they show themselves the most because they lack the energy to put on a front.

I do fee badly for the pain all these people feel.  That does not mean that I should not observe and reach conclusions about them.  Plenty of people have commented on positive things about Beth so it seems fair to observe the opposite.

You can hardly fail to notice that Beth is in charge of the Twitty family.  She is the one out there in front.  One facit of her personality is the "screamer".  The one that makes irrational threatening demands like, "I want my daughter and I want her now."  "I am not leaving this island without my daughter."  That may be what she wants but that is hardly going to force someone to give her Natalee.   Then there is the overcontrolled sweet Beth where you can see that every ounce of her energy is used to come across as nice and sweet southern lady, while at the same time she looks like she will explode any minute.  You can see this control in the tension in her lips.

If she is dealing with adults like she does, can you imagine how she treats her own children in the privacy of her home.  I think she is boss and she dominates her children.  In fact at one time in this saga, my wife and I were talking about the probable Beth/Natalee relationship and we both said that if it wasn't clear that Natalee had her bags packed and was ready to return home, that she probably ran away to escape her mom.

If you let a child of 2 yrs cross a busy street by themselves you are neglegent. If you insist in not letting a 16 yr. old cross the street by themselves you have crippled them and when the leave home they will have real trouble crossing the street by themselves.  Overcontrol deprives a child of learning to control themselves so when they are on their own they have not had practice in controlling their own behavior.  Many 18 year olds leave home and go wild because have never learned self control (there parents never let them learn).  This is why, along with reports of Natalee's behavior, that I think that Beth ruled the house.

All this does not mean squat, except that I think it illuminates why Natalee might have made a bad judgement.

[inthepacific]

Sooo out of no where..mainly because I was looking on the ISA site for names...

Sad, Joran was honor roll as well his brother. How could they be avid partiers and keep those grades?

Random thought.. sorry, just makes me wonder how this all got to this point.

His mom said that he didn't want to get out of bed in the morning. I guess if you're out in the casinos till 3:00am, yeah it might be hard to wake-up!

Yeah but honor roll??? lol

Maybe playing blackjack helped him in math!

My boys, at that age would have went to bed at 11:00 and I still had a hard time getting them up in the morning. They are growing, they are tired, and 7:00 a.m. is hard thing to wake up to for teenagers. Their bodies are changing, going through hormonal changes.

It has been brought up recently that kids should maybe start their school day later because of this. It isn't normal to the changing hormones as teenagers.

I somewhat agree with that.