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Author Topic: RBN #21 - 6/24/05 Wee Hours of The Morning  (Read 242184 times)
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Lausa
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« Reply #220 on: June 24, 2005, 02:31:53 AM »

Quote from: "iquitos"
Rijn Deborah T VanFahrenheitstraat 19..............................582-1391


Aha!  You found it using their system of alphabetizing.

I'm glad it's late.  It'd be a shame to get that "don't publish phone numbers & addresses" fight going again.  Just kidding.  

This Lorenzo thing has had me crazy for days.  I can usually find SOMETHING.  Not on this one, no matter what spelling of the name...

Do we have a street for the "spray painted house" mentioned earlier?
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Getagrip
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« Reply #221 on: June 24, 2005, 02:33:08 AM »

I think it's safe to say that you're not a mom.

Beth is behaving like most mothers with a missing child would be behaving. Except, she has held up exceptionally well under these surreal circumstances.
 
Quote from: "neil"
Juvenal,

Actually I think it is fair.  When people are under stress they show themselves the most because they lack the energy to put on a front.

I do fee badly for the pain all these people feel.  That does not mean that I should not observe and reach conclusions about them.  Plenty of people have commented on positive things about Beth so it seems fair to observe the opposite.

You can hardly fail to notice that Beth is in charge of the Twitty family.  She is the one out there in front.  One facit of her personality is the "screamer".  The one that makes irrational threatening demands like, "I want my daughter and I want her now."  "I am not leaving this island without my daughter."  That may be what she wants but that is hardly going to force someone to give her Natalee.   Then there is the overcontrolled sweet Beth where you can see that every ounce of her energy is used to come across as nice and sweet southern lady, while at the same time she looks like she will explode any minute.  You can see this control in the tension in her lips.

If she is dealing with adults like she does, can you imagine how she treats her own children in the privacy of her home.  I think she is boss and she dominates her children.  In fact at one time in this saga, my wife and I were talking about the probable Beth/Natalee relationship and we both said that if it wasn't clear that Natalee had her bags packed and was ready to return home, that she probably ran away to escape her mom.

If you let a child of 2 yrs cross a busy street by themselves you are neglegent. If you insist in not letting a 16 yr. old cross the street by themselves you have crippled them and when the leave home they will have real trouble crossing the street by themselves.  Overcontrol deprives a child of learning to control themselves so when they are on their own they have not had practice in controlling their own behavior.  Many 18 year olds leave home and go wild because have never learned self control (there parents never let them learn).  This is why, along with reports of Natalee's behavior, that I think that Beth ruled the house.

All this does not mean squat, except that I think it illuminates why Natalee might have made a bad judgement.
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AzRose
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« Reply #222 on: June 24, 2005, 02:34:13 AM »

Quote from: "Lausa"
Quote from: "iquitos"
Rijn Deborah T VanFahrenheitstraat 19..............................582-1391


Aha!  You found it using their system of alphabetizing.

I'm glad it's late.  It'd be a shame to get that "don't publish phone numbers & addresses" fight going again.  Just kidding.  

This Lorenzo thing has had me crazy for days.  I can usually find SOMETHING.  Not on this one, no matter what spelling of the name...


I knew someone was looking for this information, but couldn't remember who.   It's late and I my brain has had it. .
Good night all.
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6prs'o'klompen
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« Reply #223 on: June 24, 2005, 02:34:39 AM »

Quote from: "AzRose"
Quote from: "Getagrip"
Quote from: "Bamagal73"
Quote from: "Getagrip"
Quote from: "AzRose"
Quote from: "Getagrip"
This is the only instance where I could see premeditated murder applied:

- Joran calls Kelpoes for a lift

- roofied NH at some point

- death of NH, due to roofies possibly in conjunction with alcohol previously consumed

Then again, I'm just as confused as the rest of you by the latest developments.


In order for it to be premeditated, would they not have to prove that they knowingly gave her so much of the drug that it would be lethal?

Yeah, I probably didn't explain myself properly. I'm starting to get bleary eyed (and bleary brained?)  from all this reading.

If JVDS's intention all along was to administer roofies to have his way (that was the night's plan), and NH died from an adverse reaction (she was tiny at 5'3" and 110 lbs, and we don't know how much or how long she had been drinking), and after this happening, he disposed of the body...

...I'm by no means a lawyer or any kind of legal/criminal expert, but I'd say this case would be tried as 1st degree, no?


Accidental death with improper disposal of corpse?


I don't think that administering rohypnol is legal. Can't it be likened to administering poison?  In both cases, you don't know what dosage can kill.  Esp. the case when mixed with alcohol.

In any case, I think we're trying to make the distinction between premeditated and not?


So, how do you think the elder VDS fit into this equation?   They are all being held under premeditation theory.


Maybe PVDS requested that Joran bring someone home for him, since mom's gone and all ....."I won't tell if you won't"
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inthepacific
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« Reply #224 on: June 24, 2005, 02:36:19 AM »

Quote from: "Juvenal"
Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "Juvenal"
I apologize if this is off topic, but did any of you see the segment on Nancy Grace tonight where they talked about the released transcript of Couey's confession in the Jessica Lunsford case?


Yes, very disturbing details  Crying or Very sad


I thought that words would fail the talking heads and experts she trotted out. It seemed that it almost did at a couple of points, but they went ahead and talked anyway.

How can you even find words to describe this, without making a mockery of it? This is the worst case like this I've ever heard of.

It almost makes we want to go into LE/criminal prosecution as a career.


I was disturbed that the gory details had to be brought forward on national television. I was sickened by the fact that this guy admitted to it, but then....they have to spill the gory details publicly??

What is wrong with our world today and the media?

It's sick. Too much information, after the fact.
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WonderWoman
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« Reply #225 on: June 24, 2005, 02:36:26 AM »

Quote from: "iquitos"
Rijn Deborah T VanFahrenheitstraat 19..............................582-1391



If I am not mistaken, that is Joran's address
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dl3fan
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« Reply #226 on: June 24, 2005, 02:36:41 AM »

Quote from: "6prs'o'klompen"
Quote from: "AzRose"
Quote from: "Getagrip"
Quote from: "Bamagal73"
Quote from: "Getagrip"
Quote from: "AzRose"
Quote from: "Getagrip"
This is the only instance where I could see premeditated murder applied:

- Joran calls Kelpoes for a lift

- roofied NH at some point

- death of NH, due to roofies possibly in conjunction with alcohol previously consumed

Then again, I'm just as confused as the rest of you by the latest developments.


In order for it to be premeditated, would they not have to prove that they knowingly gave her so much of the drug that it would be lethal?

Yeah, I probably didn't explain myself properly. I'm starting to get bleary eyed (and bleary brained?)  from all this reading.

If JVDS's intention all along was to administer roofies to have his way (that was the night's plan), and NH died from an adverse reaction (she was tiny at 5'3" and 110 lbs, and we don't know how much or how long she had been drinking), and after this happening, he disposed of the body...

...I'm by no means a lawyer or any kind of legal/criminal expert, but I'd say this case would be tried as 1st degree, no?


Accidental death with improper disposal of corpse?


I don't think that administering rohypnol is legal. Can't it be likened to administering poison?  In both cases, you don't know what dosage can kill.  Esp. the case when mixed with alcohol.

In any case, I think we're trying to make the distinction between premeditated and not?


So, how do you think the elder VDS fit into this equation?   They are all being held under premeditation theory.


Maybe PVDS requested that Joran bring someone home for him, since mom's gone and all ....."I won't tell if you won't"


I have a tough time believing that even Joran would bring home a female for his dad to cheat on his mom with.
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6prs'o'klompen
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« Reply #227 on: June 24, 2005, 02:36:54 AM »

Quote from: "CaliGirl"
::::listening to crickets:::::

Hellooooo? lol


was reading that article you posted.....
 Shocked
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inthepacific
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« Reply #228 on: June 24, 2005, 02:39:28 AM »

Quote from: "CaliGirl"
What I don't get, is it was said by Natalee's friend's she introduced herself to Joran. So it's not like he persued her, stalked her, plotted something etc.

I find that odd.


You're right Cali, it seems to me this was just an innocent meeting between the 2 of them. This is what I can't get my head around, as far as pre-meditated. If anything, from what I can see here, she was the one to come onto Joran with conversation. Wasn't like he was seeking her out or anything.
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Getagrip
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« Reply #229 on: June 24, 2005, 02:39:52 AM »

Quote from: "WonderWoman"
Quote from: "iquitos"
Rijn Deborah T VanFahrenheitstraat 19..............................582-1391



If I am not mistaken, that is Joran's address

Nah, that would be Montanja street, WW Wink
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iquitos
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« Reply #230 on: June 24, 2005, 02:40:04 AM »

Quote from: "neil"
Juvenal,

Actually I think it is fair.  When people are under stress they show themselves the most because they lack the energy to put on a front.

I do fee badly for the pain all these people feel.  That does not mean that I should not observe and reach conclusions about them.  Plenty of people have commented on positive things about Beth so it seems fair to observe the opposite.

You can hardly fail to notice that Beth is in charge of the Twitty family.  She is the one out there in front.  One facit of her personality is the "screamer".  The one that makes irrational threatening demands like, "I want my daughter and I want her now."  "I am not leaving this island without my daughter."  That may be what she wants but that is hardly going to force someone to give her Natalee.   Then there is the overcontrolled sweet Beth where you can see that every ounce of her energy is used to come across as nice and sweet southern lady, while at the same time she looks like she will explode any minute.  You can see this control in the tension in her lips.

If she is dealing with adults like she does, can you imagine how she treats her own children in the privacy of her home.  I think she is boss and she dominates her children.  In fact at one time in this saga, my wife and I were talking about the probable Beth/Natalee relationship and we both said that if it wasn't clear that Natalee had her bags packed and was ready to return home, that she probably ran away to escape her mom.

If you let a child of 2 yrs cross a busy street by themselves you are neglegent. If you insist in not letting a 16 yr. old cross the street by themselves you have crippled them and when the leave home they will have real trouble crossing the street by themselves.  Overcontrol deprives a child of learning to control themselves so when they are on their own they have not had practice in controlling their own behavior.  Many 18 year olds leave home and go wild because have never learned self control (there parents never let them learn).  This is why, along with reports of Natalee's behavior, that I think that Beth ruled the house.

All this does not mean squat, except that I think it illuminates why Natalee might have made a bad judgement.


veery insightful niel.  bravo
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LostinTime
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« Reply #231 on: June 24, 2005, 02:40:21 AM »

Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "Getagrip"
Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "chloe2"
Ocicat -- thanks, that was the one show I had not tried for the video.

I did watch it. I am baffled.

I think Beth Twitty looks abosolutely exhausted and at her wit's end. I did not hear her say that she had any facts to back up her claim that Natalee was kidnapped -- I heard her say often that she 'felt', 'knew', had 'intuition' but nothing that makes me believe she has real information.

Just my take on things - I hope I am misinterpreting, but to me she just looked like a desperate mother grasping at straws. (I really, really hope I'm wrong.)


Now, I don't want to piss anyone off, but I haven't seen that woman break since the get go...how can she be strong??? This is what I can't believe! Is it her religious faith that has kept her strong???

I am not a religious person so I can't understand her strength in all of this. She has held up tremendously ever since she arrived on Aruba. Someone help me understand this behaviour by Mrs. Hollaway/Twitty.

I watched her on CNN tonight, with a cameraman in the back of her car...she is driving around the island!!! She dropped a person off/or picked someone up at the airport there. Answered her cell phone, told her TUG, I love you...and all the while she seemed just too much together.

I'm not running her down, but I guess I don't understand the strength and courage she is showing in all of this....

 Shocked


It's the first time she has looked exhausted..and she even said it was the first morning she wasn't sure if she could get out of bed. BUT, she's usually so articulate and and reliable in her comments...that's what made the kidnapping comments so shocking.  She very clearly states the "others" who she suspects will be arrested are also the same people who are keeping her on the island.

One thing I thought of is she's so firm on her belief Natalee's alive, she may have been trapped after she used the word kidnapping...meaning the three took Natalee...so where do you go from there?  If she thinks she's alive and also been taken by several, you gotta go the extra step of saying these people have her on the island alive.

Really don't know...it was a very different Beth Twitty interview IMO.


I didn't watch that interview Nancy, was looking for it and somebody provided a link to it on Fox but I still couldn't find it. I would have liked to watch that. Perhaps this is why she is holding up so well, she knows something we do not. If she thinks Natalee is alive, she may have good reason to believe, that from her sources within this investigation, they have told her they believe she is alive and being held captive somewhere.


I think I posted the link for you, or someone.

Go to the link and look at the top right...there's a heading that says something like "FREE FOX VIDEOS"  below it is a picture of Beth and a link to the video.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160486,00.html

You won't see the box unless your screen is open all the way. I just noticed my bookmarks are open now and I had to scroll to the right to see the box.


Sorry Nancy, still not finding it on that page. At the top right of that page is offered "videos" I clicked on that but not interview with beth there. Who was interviewing her?


Try this link and see if it works.


Holy shit, this sheds a new light on this investigation, watching this video with Beth and what she has to say.

Points she mentioned in this interview that we don't know about. Inside information between the Hollaways and the Van der Sloots...

1. More people have to be questioned and arrested

2. More people involved. FBI, local authorities know who they are.

3. My daughter has been "kidnapped" and the 3 individuals in custody know what happened.

4. Beth believes she is alive.

5. She believes she is on the island being held

6. The interview with her and Van der sloots(Mr.) she knows he knows something and this was confirmed when she was at his home.

7. This was not a contencious meeting Beth says

8. Beth has confirmation now that he has some information.(Mr. VDS)

9. The LE and investigative team are NOT keeping them in the dark.


It's not really unusual for someone to keep there composure under undue stress and not be that emotional.  I call it automatic pilot, you do what needs to be done, for your own sanity and the people around you.  You or I as the case was break down later.  But you do what you feel you need to do at that time.  Alot of people don't understand that and view it in a negative way, everybody handles things in there own way, I'm reserved and that's how I handle things , I understand what she's doing and i am amazed at her strength.
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« Reply #232 on: June 24, 2005, 02:42:13 AM »

Gotta jump back in for a minute. Reading and catching up w/o posting is causing sensory overload. So much to absorb!

There is NO WAY the mayor of Birmingham has a shred of inside info. Bernard Kincaid is a self-absorbed crackpot and there is not a chance in the world that anyone close to the Twitty/Holloway family would divulge such a thing to him. A LOT more than Red Mountain separates B'ham city proper and Mountain Brook, as you can well imagine. Spencer Bachus and Jeff Sessions have all the scoops, and have from the beginning. Bear in mind also that Condoleeza Rice is originally from Birmingham hint hint.

There is an angle which has gone unexplored here... that is possible connections between PVDS and the underworld, both in the Caribbean and in Europe.

One statement tonight stood out: Marianne Croes said that PVDS is a suspect in the DISAPPEARANCE, not JUST a coverup, and she made that quite clear and made the DISTINCTION quite clear, not like her usual we-cannot-disclose-that-info style.

For all we know Natalee could as easily be in Amsterdam as in Venezuela.
Just somethin' to think on, guys.
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Natalee's family/friends still need our prayers.
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« Reply #233 on: June 24, 2005, 02:42:57 AM »

Quote from: "LouLou"
The Dark side has some interesting things to say about the case. There are about 3 articles that I've read. They are more reflective than factual reporting but the man has an excellent writing style.

Todays blog is about Carlos n. Charlies. this is the link

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/cat_the_vanishing_of_natalee_holloway.html


Thanks for the link.  I just skimmed the article--no time for *real* reading these days!  I was hoping it was someone else's take on Carlos & Charlie's that is like mine -- and Greta Van Susteren's (who was scared to death of the place).

Egad!  I hate those places with a passion.  Senor Frog's is only a little bit better, by a micromillimeter.

I had to travel all over Mexico for work and was forced to go to every C&C's along all of the Mexican coasts and I could not believe the things I saw, heard, had done to me, on and on.  For me, the very worst was that I had to *constantly* fight off (and I mean *fight*, like slapping hands and pushing away roughly) these idiot men waiters or whatever they were that INSISTED on trying to spray liquor into my mouth out of wineskins and water guns and all kinds of crap like that.

I don't drink alcohol and I didn't want *anything* near me like that.  A simple "no!," with a little Church Lady finger-wag, which works with the vendors in the mercados who want "demaciado" -- too much -- for their wares, didn't faze these guys.  They thought it was a coy little challenge to make them TRY harder to pour booze down my throat.

I finally got one of my Mexican clients to tell me how to say "I am an alcoholic" in Spanish, so maybe they would realize I was serious as hell!  You know, like I'm frigging ALLERGIC to the crap?  Noppppppeeee.  "Yo soy alcoholico" to them meant "I love booze and I want more!"  I could've sued the pants off of every one of those places if it happened in the US.  It was beyond contemptible, to me.

And that is just ONE thing I hated about them.  The sex stuff is a whole 'nuther story.  Gad, I HATE Carlos & Charlie's!!
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« Reply #234 on: June 24, 2005, 02:43:06 AM »

I never did feel any energy from either the lighthouse OR the beach near the hotels.  I thought that Joran's apartment might have some activity and when I read that Natalee's mother felt her daughter's energy there I seconded it.

I think she is alive and well although not a runaway or anything like that.

I like the prosecutor's spokesperson Mariane Croes.  She's doing a good job.  Please don't just slam people for no reason.
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iquitos
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« Reply #235 on: June 24, 2005, 02:43:14 AM »

riehl's latest take

Thursday, June 23, 2005

Two Observations

One is a personal observation I am only posting after seeing the interview with Mrs. Kalpoe tonight on Fox. I can remember when this all started and I was reviewing the boy's websites.

Just as Joran's website was noteworthy for a significant number of pictures from partying and the clubs, casinos, etc. .. the site of Satish was the opposite.

I remember pictures from field trips, archeological sites, art and so forth - I was genuinely struck by the difference in the two boys. That doesn't mean anything as far as guilt, or innocence, but it was a genuine observation.

The second observation will sound like gossip, which basically, it is - please take that into account. If it didn't come through an extremely reliable source on the island, I would not mention it at all.

In talking with an adult professional from Aruba who knew Joran, the individual stated that Joran often bragged to him of his many "sexual conquests" resulting from the use of an illicit substance slipped into a woman's drink and the Aruban individual suggested Joran was a "psychopath."

I doubt that the source of these statements is a certified psychologist, but if he is repeating these types of statements to individuals in and around the investigation, it will likely come out and be proven or disproven in any potential trial. And noone should be considered guilty of anything without one.
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Juvenal
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« Reply #236 on: June 24, 2005, 02:46:31 AM »

Quote from: "neil"
Juvenal,

Actually I think it is fair.  When people are under stress they show themselves the most because they lack the energy to put on a front.

I do fee badly for the pain all these people feel.  That does not mean that I should not observe and reach conclusions about them.  Plenty of people have commented on positive things about Beth so it seems fair to observe the opposite.

You can hardly fail to notice that Beth is in charge of the Twitty family.  She is the one out there in front.  One facit of her personality is the "screamer".  The one that makes irrational threatening demands like, "I want my daughter and I want her now."  "I am not leaving this island without my daughter."  That may be what she wants but that is hardly going to force someone to give her Natalee.   Then there is the overcontrolled sweet Beth where you can see that every ounce of her energy is used to come across as nice and sweet southern lady, while at the same time she looks like she will explode any minute.  You can see this control in the tension in her lips.

If she is dealing with adults like she does, can you imagine how she treats her own children in the privacy of her home.  I think she is boss and she dominates her children.  In fact at one time in this saga, my wife and I were talking about the probable Beth/Natalee relationship and we both said that if it wasn't clear that Natalee had her bags packed and was ready to return home, that she probably ran away to escape her mom.

If you let a child of 2 yrs cross a busy street by themselves you are neglegent. If you insist in not letting a 16 yr. old cross the street by themselves you have crippled them and when the leave home they will have real trouble crossing the street by themselves.  Overcontrol deprives a child of learning to control themselves so when they are on their own they have not had practice in controlling their own behavior.  Many 18 year olds leave home and go wild because have never learned self control (there parents never let them learn).  This is why, along with reports of Natalee's behavior, that I think that Beth ruled the house.

All this does not mean squat, except that I think it illuminates why Natalee might have made a bad judgement.


With all respect, Neil, I don't think this illuminates anything. Beth Twitty is not in a normal situation right now. You can't even compare the way she is now with how she would be day to day.

If you have your child disappear, with all these swirling rumors about what might have happened to her, there's something wrong with you if you can't get motivated to start demanding some answers.

And for you to utter platitudes about letting kids grow up when you have absolutely no knowledge about Natalee's relationship with her mom is the emptiest speculation I've seen in this forum.
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« Reply #237 on: June 24, 2005, 02:47:10 AM »

BTW, I did find a 'Van Gijn' in the phonebook, but first name is Johannes.

Not posting the number - most likely unrelated anyway.
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dl3fan
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« Reply #238 on: June 24, 2005, 02:48:44 AM »

On the replay of Hannity & Colmes on Fox right now, Beth mentioned that she reads every card, letter, and email she gets.  Anyone know the proper email addr or snail mail addr to send her our thoughts/prayers?
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« Reply #239 on: June 24, 2005, 02:50:36 AM »

Quote from: "dl3fan"
On the replay of Hannity & Colmes on Fox right now, Beth mentioned that she reads every card, letter, and email she gets.  Anyone know the proper email addr or snail mail addr to send her our thoughts/prayers?

I would assume...

Holiday Inn SunSpree Resort
ARUBA-BEACH RESORT & CASINO
J. E. IRAUSQUIN BLVD #230
ARUBA, ***
ARUBA
Tel: 297-58-63600
Fax: 297-58-65165
Email: reservations@sunspree-aruba.com
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