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Author Topic: RBN #21 - 6/24/05 Wee Hours of The Morning  (Read 233744 times)
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mariloo1
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« Reply #460 on: June 24, 2005, 09:40:21 AM »

Iquitos, don 't know what your feeling on gambling is, but I am born and raised in Miss and have traveled extensively.  Yes, we gamble here in Miss.  Some here think it is an awful thing along with consuming alcohol, etc.  I love to gamble and only allow so much money to do this with, however I have witnessed people going there with their welfare checks and I wonder about the poor children left at home with nothing.  This is the root to some of the so called "southern hipocrasy" because the very religious believe gambling is addictive and therefore will destroy the family.  I fear addicts of any sort because they will stop at nothing to fulfill their desire.  I can feel the distaste in your posts for the southern people.  We are very fierce about our families and will defend to the death but on the other hand, we discipline our kids and teach them to do right by others.  I am speaking of the majority of southern people.  We do not want to raise a child everyone hates to see coming.  However, there are bad apples in every community, city, state , or country.  I believe if you come here, you will be treated with respect.  Nat's family are beside themselves and they are doing a great job.  If I was there, I probably would have been arrested by now because I would have not let up on Joran.  I believe as a mother myself, he would have talked to me.
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Rob
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« Reply #461 on: June 24, 2005, 09:43:08 AM »

Quote from: "Cherry6905"
I do not think Joran's Mother is sincere. I think she is sad for her own problems. She's not concerned about Natalee. After seeing her on AP saying this is now the media's fault. She is either in denial or spinning this for her family. Seeing Joran's Mom's indigant response tells me she's not happy, I think she believed her family was exempt to the law.

Jug (Natalee's step dad) was right, who tells their son to remain silent about being with someone who is missing (Joran's father)...unless he fear  ed Joraan may incriminate himself and father.

I have been happy to see Aruba appearing to do their job in investigating this case.  I pray they find Natalee, then maybe this will be settled. If Aruba shows they did their job I should think everyone would be very thankful and tourisim would return, possibly even increase.


i dont agree, mrs vd sloot looks just smart enough to be a art teacher....
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BlueKyGirl
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« Reply #462 on: June 24, 2005, 09:44:57 AM »

Quote from: "mariloo1"
Iquitos, don 't know what your feeling on gambling is, but I am born and raised in Miss and have traveled extensively.  Yes, we gamble here in Miss.  Some here think it is an awful thing along with consuming alcohol, etc.  I love to gamble and only allow so much money to do this with, however I have witnessed people going there with their welfare checks and I wonder about the poor children left at home with nothing.  This is the root to some of the so called "southern hipocrasy" because the very religious believe gambling is addictive and therefore will destroy the family.  I fear addicts of any sort because they will stop at nothing to fulfill their desire.  I can feel the distaste in your posts for the southern people.  We are very fierce about our families and will defend to the death but on the other hand, we discipline our kids and teach them to do right by others.  I am speaking of the majority of southern people.  We do not want to raise a child everyone hates to see coming.  However, there are bad apples in every community, city, state , or country.  I believe if you come here, you will be treated with respect.  Nat's family are beside themselves and they are doing a great job.  If I was there, I probably would have been arrested by now because I would have not let up on Joran.  I believe as a mother myself, he would have talked to me.


You wouldn't only be treated with respect--you'd be WARMLY WELCOMED by almost everyone. People always think Kentucky is the most backwards place on the planet until they come for Derby and then they see how genteel, welcoming, and fun it is. Southerners are kind and hospitable--you should visit and see for yourself.
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iquitos
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« Reply #463 on: June 24, 2005, 09:45:54 AM »

Quote from: "Atlmetroguy"
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "Atlmetroguy"

Iquitos...I'm sorry but I have to take exception for your comment about "Southern Hypocrisy". I have big news for you there is hypocrisy all over the country and all over the world for that matter. We Southerners DO NOT have the corner on the market.
::back to lurk mode::


Don't be sorry...this isn't the first time Iquitos has posted comments like this.


Thanks Pinemeadows...maybe I'm just sensitive to "Southern" comments. While I grew up in Birmingham and now live in Atlanta, I have spent the last 20 years traveling for business and I am continually amazed at the numbers people across the country who think we still have slaves.
 

sorry i was going to say baptist (maybe red state is better) hypocricy would have been better.  i agree all too many of us play the double standard.  we are a hypocritical society.  i guess it is the judgemental part that bothers me.  judge not lest ye be judged.  i probably made this worse.  just ignore me.
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Curiosity
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« Reply #464 on: June 24, 2005, 09:46:33 AM »

I apologize if this has been posted before. But if you haven't seen these CNN videos, check them out:

 http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/23/aruba.holloway/index.html

I am referring to the videos in the green "watch" square titled "What it is like to search for the missing girl".....very informative and helpful in understanding the problems in doing the searches.

Also...Recent grads from the US still pack Aruba's clubs.....C&C's shown full of teens drinking....and having problems keeping together when they leave....again helpful in understanding what might have gone wrong.
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Just Wondering
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« Reply #465 on: June 24, 2005, 09:47:19 AM »

Compananzi:
Your story about the girl gone a week, parents come, find her with with an Arubian lover is what is known as an urban myth.
It is a story passed around that re-inforces what people want to believe whether it is base on fear or a desire for something to be true.

The POLICE COMMISSIONER told BH the first day to go wait at C&C and Natalee will show up. That is the result of this type of urban myth.
But there is another side to Aruba. From most posters from Aruba I think they have come to recoginize that there are problems with drugs and prostitution that need to be cleaned up.
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Cherry6905
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« Reply #466 on: June 24, 2005, 09:48:18 AM »

Quote from: "Rob"
Quote from: "Cherry6905"
I do not think Joran's Mother is sincere. I think she is sad for her own problems. She's not concerned about Natalee. After seeing her on AP saying this is now the media's fault. She is either in denial or spinning this for her family. Seeing Joran's Mom's indigant response tells me she's not happy, I think she believed her family was exempt to the law.

Jug (Natalee's step dad) was right, who tells their son to remain silent about being with someone who is missing (Joran's father)...unless he fear  ed Joraan may incriminate himself and father.

I have been happy to see Aruba appearing to do their job in investigating this case.  I pray they find Natalee, then maybe this will be settled. If Aruba shows they did their job I should think everyone would be very thankful and tourisim would return, possibly even increase.


i dont agree, mrs vd sloot looks just smart enough to be a art teacher....


Rob, what do you mean? She's stupid? Naw...she's not stupid. She just wants her life as she knows it to go on. Artists aren't stupid - I is one.
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Gerben aka Pays Bas
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« Reply #467 on: June 24, 2005, 09:48:18 AM »

Quote from: "waited_too_long"
Quote from: "Scared-Tom"
Quote from: "Gerben aka Pays Bas"
Quote from: "cancon"
Quote from: "Gerben aka Pays Bas"
Quote from: "lookingood"
A question for people who know law - does this ring any bells?

I believe that I have read that, in some places, it could be considered "premeditated" murder if you have a reasonable expectation that your neglect could cause someone to die and, yet, you do nothing.

For example, if you leave the scene of an accident where an injured person is without reporting it and the person dies of an injury as a result of this.

So in our case, Natalee is in a drug-induced coma, both Joran and his father are aware of this, and yet neither get her medical help and she dies.

Could this then be considered "premeditated" murder?


No. Prosecution would have a hard time proving that abandoment is murder. They can however demand jailtime up to nine years for abandonment of a person in need of help.


no it would be criminally negligent homicide at best and that presumes they have that offence in Aruba

it would normally be a manslaughter charge in that kind of case at maximum


No not manslaughter, abandoment is specifically covered in dutch law (art.255)


Thanks Gerben, that is some great information. I am not sure that the US law has that same category. We would consider it involuntary manslaughter.


I agree, good information. There are pretty rigid guidelines even in the US on when a person must assist. Skiers involved in a collision, driver in an accident... There must be some special relationship betrween the individuals. Simply present when a victim is in respiratory arrest from accidental drug overdose? No.


The trick is this: The law says, and I looked it up, that one can get up to two years in jail of a fine for refusing care for a person in need for wich he was responsable for by law or by contract. This goes up to nine years in jail if that person dies. Luckily I am not a judge for one can say on basis of dutch assaultlaws (mishandeling) that leaving her is assault leading to a death. Six years in prison, if it was premeditated assault, ten years.
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Atlmetroguy
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« Reply #468 on: June 24, 2005, 09:49:28 AM »

Quote from: "iquitos"
Quote from: "Atlmetroguy"
Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "Atlmetroguy"

Iquitos...I'm sorry but I have to take exception for your comment about "Southern Hypocrisy". I have big news for you there is hypocrisy all over the country and all over the world for that matter. We Southerners DO NOT have the corner on the market.
::back to lurk mode::


Don't be sorry...this isn't the first time Iquitos has posted comments like this.


Thanks Pinemeadows...maybe I'm just sensitive to "Southern" comments. While I grew up in Birmingham and now live in Atlanta, I have spent the last 20 years traveling for business and I am continually amazed at the numbers people across the country who think we still have slaves.
 

sorry i was going to say baptist (maybe red state is better) hypocricy would have been better.  i agree all too many of us play the double standard.  we are a hypocritical society.  i guess it is the judgemental part that bothers me.  judge not lest ye be judged.  i probably made this worse.  just ignore me.


Iquitos...I believe I understand the spirit of what your trying to say. Rather than classify the judgemental part as Southern, Red State or Baptist as many other religons/races/creeds are equally guilty just say something more generalized like humanity or society.

Now that I better understand your point, no offense taken here and thank you for your insights that you post.
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heavyheart
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« Reply #469 on: June 24, 2005, 09:49:36 AM »

Quote from: "Rob"
Quote from: "Cherry6905"
I do not think Joran's Mother is sincere. I think she is sad for her own problems. She's not concerned about Natalee. After seeing her on AP saying this is now the media's fault. She is either in denial or spinning this for her family. Seeing Joran's Mom's indigant response tells me she's not happy, I think she believed her family was exempt to the law.

Jug (Natalee's step dad) was right, who tells their son to remain silent about being with someone who is missing (Joran's father)...unless he fear  ed Joraan may incriminate himself and father.

I have been happy to see Aruba appearing to do their job in investigating this case.  I pray they find Natalee, then maybe this will be settled. If Aruba shows they did their job I should think everyone would be very thankful and tourisim would return, possibly even increase.


i dont agree, mrs vd sloot looks just smart enough to be a art teacher....


Smart enough for finger painting maybe Smile
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Cherry6905
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« Reply #470 on: June 24, 2005, 09:49:52 AM »

When are you going? I'd love to get an eyewittness point of view!
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iquitos
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« Reply #471 on: June 24, 2005, 09:49:58 AM »

Quote from: "BlueKyGirl"
Quote from: "mariloo1"
Iquitos, don 't know what your feeling on gambling is, but I am born and raised in Miss and have traveled extensively.  Yes, we gamble here in Miss.  Some here think it is an awful thing along with consuming alcohol, etc.  I love to gamble and only allow so much money to do this with, however I have witnessed people going there with their welfare checks and I wonder about the poor children left at home with nothing.  This is the root to some of the so called "southern hipocrasy" because the very religious believe gambling is addictive and therefore will destroy the family.  I fear addicts of any sort because they will stop at nothing to fulfill their desire.  I can feel the distaste in your posts for the southern people.  We are very fierce about our families and will defend to the death but on the other hand, we discipline our kids and teach them to do right by others.  I am speaking of the majority of southern people.  We do not want to raise a child everyone hates to see coming.  However, there are bad apples in every community, city, state , or country.  I believe if you come here, you will be treated with respect.  Nat's family are beside themselves and they are doing a great job.  If I was there, I probably would have been arrested by now because I would have not let up on Joran.  I believe as a mother myself, he would have talked to me.


You wouldn't only be treated with respect--you'd be WARMLY WELCOMED by almost everyone. People always think Kentucky is the most backwards place on the planet until they come for Derby and then they see how genteel, welcoming, and fun it is. Southerners are kind and hospitable--you should visit and see for yourself.
 

sorry for my sterotyping.  i know southerners are good people.  i come from old southern stock.  i think gambling is a scourge on the poor and do not think it shoud be used to fund state activities.  it is legalized theft.  but hey, it is a free country.  i don't like it used as part of a demonization campaign.  hey, he gambles, he must be a a slimeball.
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Cherry6905
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« Reply #472 on: June 24, 2005, 09:51:47 AM »

Quote from: "heavyheart"
Quote from: "Rob"
Quote from: "Cherry6905"
I do not think Joran's Mother is sincere. I think she is sad for her own problems. She's not concerned about Natalee. After seeing her on AP saying this is now the media's fault. She is either in denial or spinning this for her family. Seeing Joran's Mom's indigant response tells me she's not happy, I think she believed her family was exempt to the law.

Jug (Natalee's step dad) was right, who tells their son to remain silent about being with someone who is missing (Joran's father)...unless he fear  ed Joraan may incriminate himself and father.

I have been happy to see Aruba appearing to do their job in investigating this case.  I pray they find Natalee, then maybe this will be settled. If Aruba shows they did their job I should think everyone would be very thankful and tourisim would return, possibly even increase.


i dont agree, mrs vd sloot looks just smart enough to be a art teacher....


Smart enough for finger painting maybe Smile


Heavyheart, what do think, are they trying to deflect attention off themselves?
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Kkial
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« Reply #473 on: June 24, 2005, 09:54:50 AM »

Quote from: "Atlmetroguy"
Quote from: "mojo"
Gerben, i have a question for you - a bit muddled perhaps but here goes:

if there is no body or forensic evidence
if there is nothing really in the way of emails, SMS or other communication that implicates any of the suspects
is there any likelihood that there will be no one charged, the suspects will all be released and the investigation will fail?

could we possibly looking at a scenario where this does not get resolved?


*******

Just a comment about evidence and forensics. The VDS house was searched for 4 hours and materials were removed as well as the 2 cars and sent to Holland (i think) for processing last week or so. Perhaps the Aruban LE has the forensics reports back and that coupled with all the stories falling apart is why we are beginning to see some movement on the case.

It's just a thought....


I lurk mostly,,and step away and takes me hr to catch up..
I am thinking and have posted and the Mariott has come up so much, with all the rooms and storage areas...

Could be possibility that Nat was given drugs and had reaction...She was on some kind of meds,,her mom said her medication was in the room..

Also,,could be some sort of ring at the Mariott,,involving just employees or done with the knowledge of the management..using date rape drug,,on unsuspecting and room available ..

Also,,dad had to be called..and Nat was possibly at Joran's apt,,(forensics back now) and dad is involved in the coverup..

All the hotel rooms available would be a possibility and could still be held there with the knowledge of just a few...make a tape?? thinking

Back to lurking,,,,
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mariloo1
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« Reply #474 on: June 24, 2005, 09:55:19 AM »

Does anyone think as I do that papa VDS looks more nervous and scared than his son?
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joebob
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« Reply #475 on: June 24, 2005, 09:55:26 AM »

Quote from: "iquitos"
 i think gambling is a scourge on the poor



My opinion is that it is a scourge on people who are bad at math
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Vorpman
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« Reply #476 on: June 24, 2005, 09:55:26 AM »

Quote from: "cancon"
heck I'm a former lawyer, law students and lawyers can drink as good as anyone else......


And then some...
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Rob
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« Reply #477 on: June 24, 2005, 09:56:04 AM »

Quote from: "Cherry6905"
Quote from: "Rob"
Quote from: "Cherry6905"
I do not think Joran's Mother is sincere. I think she is sad for her own problems. She's not concerned about Natalee. After seeing her on AP saying this is now the media's fault. She is either in denial or spinning this for her family. Seeing Joran's Mom's indigant response tells me she's not happy, I think she believed her family was exempt to the law.

Jug (Natalee's step dad) was right, who tells their son to remain silent about being with someone who is missing (Joran's father)...unless he fear  ed Joraan may incriminate himself and father.

I have been happy to see Aruba appearing to do their job in investigating this case.  I pray they find Natalee, then maybe this will be settled. If Aruba shows they did their job I should think everyone would be very thankful and tourisim would return, possibly even increase.


i dont agree, mrs vd sloot looks just smart enough to be a art teacher....


Rob, what do you mean? She's stupid? Naw...she's not stupid. She just wants her life as she knows it to go on. Artists aren't stupid - I is one.


yeah she not real savvy.. she see the world as she chooses.. not the way it is.. she has a problem with reality...
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gaijin
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« Reply #478 on: June 24, 2005, 09:56:36 AM »

Man, I just got to say...I love how everybody is getting along this mgn! Somebody says something that is somewhat offensive to another poster - and then they're right up there apologizing and explaining what they really meant.
Not that it means anything coming from me - but I just think its great.
Looks like a good day in the cage and the zoo is back in order.

Back to looking for Natalee.
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iquitos
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« Reply #479 on: June 24, 2005, 09:56:43 AM »

Quote from: "Gerben aka Pays Bas"
Quote from: "waited_too_long"
Quote from: "Scared-Tom"
Quote from: "Gerben aka Pays Bas"
Quote from: "cancon"
Quote from: "Gerben aka Pays Bas"
Quote from: "lookingood"
A question for people who know law - does this ring any bells?

I believe that I have read that, in some places, it could be considered "premeditated" murder if you have a reasonable expectation that your neglect could cause someone to die and, yet, you do nothing.

For example, if you leave the scene of an accident where an injured person is without reporting it and the person dies of an injury as a result of this.

So in our case, Natalee is in a drug-induced coma, both Joran and his father are aware of this, and yet neither get her medical help and she dies.

Could this then be considered "premeditated" murder?


No. Prosecution would have a hard time proving that abandoment is murder. They can however demand jailtime up to nine years for abandonment of a person in need of help.


no it would be criminally negligent homicide at best and that presumes they have that offence in Aruba

it would normally be a manslaughter charge in that kind of case at maximum


No not manslaughter, abandoment is specifically covered in dutch law (art.255)


Thanks Gerben, that is some great information. I am not sure that the US law has that same category. We would consider it involuntary manslaughter.


I agree, good information. There are pretty rigid guidelines even in the US on when a person must assist. Skiers involved in a collision, driver in an accident... There must be some special relationship betrween the individuals. Simply present when a victim is in respiratory arrest from accidental drug overdose? No.


The trick is this: The law says, and I looked it up, that one can get up to two years in jail of a fine for refusing care for a person in need for wich he was responsable for by law or by contract. This goes up to nine years in jail if that person dies. Luckily I am not a judge for one can say on basis of dutch assaultlaws (mishandeling) that leaving her is assault leading to a death. Six years in prison, if it was premeditated assault, ten years.
 gerben, you are a treasure.  

what do you think of all this?  this is a giant tv story here.  it is manufacture for a particular audience and fox ratings are very high since they are the most audacious in coverage.  if you listen to npr or read the times you will rarely hear of it, if at all.  i usually live in that world but entered this one as a diversion and became obsessed with the case.  yesterday i went back to my habitual media and there was not a peep on this.  i talked to my brother who follows the press and he had never heard of natalee.
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