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Author Topic: RBN #21 - 6/24/05 Wee Hours of The Morning  (Read 238525 times)
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islandgurl
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« Reply #620 on: June 24, 2005, 11:22:17 AM »

Quote from: "Ella's Mom"
I accidently posted this as its own topic, but meant to post here.  Just wanted to know what any of you thought.


This may have been brought up before and if so I apologize. But does anyone think that maybe Daddy VDS is way more involved in this and Joran is being so "wishy washy" to protect his Dad and not necessasarily himself?

Maybe Joran brought her home and Dad did something!!
 

I think that is quite possible.
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Scott
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« Reply #621 on: June 24, 2005, 11:22:40 AM »

Quote from: "Gerben aka Pays Bas"
Quote from: "mojo"
Gerben, i have a question for you - a bit muddled perhaps but here goes:

if there is no body or forensic evidence
if there is nothing really in the way of emails, SMS or other communication that implicates any of the suspects
is there any likelihood that there will be no one charged, the suspects will all be released and the investigation will fail?

could we possibly looking at a scenario where this does not get resolved?


Yes, that is possible. That's why the police are quite intense, AVS called it even extreme, in their interrogations. A confession is a good thing to start from if you are the prosecutor in this case. However a confession is not needed in court if there is enough evidence that ties the suspect to the crime. No evidence and no confession basically means that you are innocent.
That's why maybe, and I am speculating here, Jorans father advised Joran not to say anything because a 'confession', even if he is innocent is basically enough te get you in jail.
There are failsaves for this in the dutch justicesystem, so any judge in this case will demand more from the prosecution than a confession.


Are you saying, for all intents and purposes, that it is impossible to get a conviction based strictly on circumstantial evidence?
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wvlady
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« Reply #622 on: June 24, 2005, 11:23:02 AM »

has anyone heard from Dash recently?
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klaasend
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« Reply #623 on: June 24, 2005, 11:25:06 AM »

Quote from: "wvlady"
has anyone heard from Dash recently?

She has not posted since 6/20.
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iquitos
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« Reply #624 on: June 24, 2005, 11:26:09 AM »

DELETED
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sunmoonstars
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« Reply #625 on: June 24, 2005, 11:26:42 AM »

Miller is the director of TE and is on Fox news now.
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iquitos
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« Reply #626 on: June 24, 2005, 11:27:02 AM »

Quote from: "Whitney"


from http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/cat_the_vanishing_of_natalee_holloway.html#000814

an excellent article and oh yes, Look at those (not scared IMO)Monkeys
 more from the early am monkey take
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CaliGirl
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« Reply #627 on: June 24, 2005, 11:27:04 AM »

Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "momto5"

I havent read anywhere hes been charged but is being held under suspicion as the other suspects are. Also I think he appears nervous bc he has alot to lose, his family, job, reputation, freedom. He is a grown man with life exp and knows the implication of being convicted. The other boys are  younger with their lives ahead of them. Maybe not realizing the prison they are in might be their home for a long time if something doesnt happen soon. Makes sense to me why hes nervous.


I think in Joran's sick, demented mind, this gives him street cred amongst his wannabe gangsta friends.


What wannabe gangsta and street cred?

Do I have to sit here, yet again and explain over and over what a misconception that is?

Seriously, take a plane, come to Los Angeles. I will personally drive you around during your visit, through all of southern california because pehaps in "small" town USA (I now realize) you are not accustomed to what most kids these days are into.

::thinking maybe you missed my whole slang and hand sign class in here:::

That is why the forum sometimes breaks out into "homie" etc lol
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nancy_drew
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« Reply #628 on: June 24, 2005, 11:28:20 AM »

Quote from: "sandy"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
Quote from: "iquitos"
greta was in her previous life as an attorney and remains an ambulance chaser


Iquitos:

That's rather harsh.  I have no information she was an "ambulance chaser"?  Can you give us a reference to that?  Was she a personal injury attorney?  I think it's great to debate the issues, the stories, etc. But, making a suggestion like this, if it's not true is way below the belt!

I sense quite a bit of jealousy of Greta with bloggers covering this case. Not sure why?  Each has their place in this story.  I praise her work...it's been factual, fair and gutsy.  IMO that depicts the best in journalism.


No jealousy here - actually i considered her handling of the OJ trial one of the highlights of my viewing history - when she moved to FOX I was truly disappointed because I do not have access to FOX - I think she is doing an incredible job in this instance but I have to remark on what a fine line she is treading between journalism, lawyering, etc. - a fine line - when all is said and done - only she is agile enough to navigate.


Sandy, your post was great.  And, something well worth keeping an eye on.  She is walking a fine line.  THE FOLLOWING IS A WHAT IF... say we didn't see the part of the film clip where she forced the meeting, or threatened Joran's family if they didn't comply...or edited statements in the film, then he gets arrested for what was said?  Yikes, now that would be dreadful for justice in this case.  I don't know Dutch law but if that happened here the case could be thrown out...at least for the dad.

You are right, she is walking a fine line.  I suspect she's a full professional and hasn't done wrong...but, she's still down there covering the case.  Time will tell.
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Vorpman
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« Reply #629 on: June 24, 2005, 11:28:26 AM »

Speaking about Greta Van Susteren:  here's a link dealing with her background and Scientology.  

 http://home.snafu.de/tilman/prolinks/greta.html

Greta van Susteren once said in the Washington Post that she is a Scientologist ("I like the ethics") and in People ("I'm a strong advocate of their ethics"). Ethics in Scientology is not the same as in the real world. It means to "remove counter-intentions from the environment", i.e. to get the job done and apply Scientology. Greta has done this for many years at CNN and before, although she has tried to keep a rather low profile on the Scientology angle of these activities.

The St. Petersburg Times about Greta and John: High profile couple never pairs church and state
 
The National Law Journal about John's failed RITALIN litigation: Ritalin Class Actions: Fast Start, Big Stumble
 
Her lawfirm got in trouble twice for active soliciting, commonly known as "ambulance chasing". The second time was after the ValuJet disaster. She showed her arrogant attitude in her CNN show (read the transcript). In other reactions, the argument brought by her lawfirm was mostly that "other lawyers are just jealous".
 
After the Heaven's gate mass suicide, she discussed suing the drug company that manufactured the product used for suicide. This is closely related to the viewpoint of scientology, that psychiatry and drug companies is responsible for every bad thing that happens anywhere.
 
She represented Amy Frith in her lawsuit against Wellspring, a cult recovery institution. She was not only unsuccessful, but it was also embarassing for her, as she had to admit to an opposing lawyer that she was scared of Amy's abusive husband.
 
On 12.6.1998 she agreed to represent the Southern Baptist Convention against lawsuits filed by women against discrimination. Greta's argument (also available in RealAudio): she is distressed by outside people who criticize the way a religion wants to run itself, and she would also leave the KKK alone if it was a religion.
 
According to Graham Berry, Greta van Susteren helped convince CNN to cancel an exposť about the Scientology front Applied Scholastics.
 
Greta and her husband John P. Coale were investors in the Ponzi scheme of Scientologist Reed Slatkin; they invested $2.1 million and received $2.7 million in payments according to this report by the court-appointed trustee. When being told that even innocent parties (i.e. participants who didn't know it was a Ponzi scheme) are required to return the extra money, John Coale said: "I'll fight this thing for 100 years" because "Most of that money went to the IRS." (Source: The Los Angeles Times from 21.12.2001)
The 100 years fight is already over. John and Greta are settling the case and will pay back $705,000 to the estate in seven semi-annual installments.
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mojo
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« Reply #630 on: June 24, 2005, 11:28:37 AM »

as to the charge of ambulance chasing -

Greta Van Susteren's law firm, Coale and Van Susteren, has been named in news reports as having contacted families of ValuJet crash victims.

the firm was censured twice for ambulance chasing!
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jane
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« Reply #631 on: June 24, 2005, 11:29:26 AM »

Quote from: "LostinTime"
Quote from: "LouLou"
Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "CaliGirl"
What I don't get, is it was said by Natalee's friend's she introduced herself to Joran. So it's not like he persued her, stalked her, plotted something etc.

I find that odd.


You're right Cali, it seems to me this was just an innocent meeting between the 2 of them. This is what I can't get my head around, as far as pre-meditated. If anything, from what I can see here, she was the one to come onto Joran with conversation. Wasn't like he was seeking her out or anything.


More that that, she insisted on buying him a drink at the bar. When he won some money for her.


That's Southern Hospitality


Personally, I think all that talk about who bought drinks for who is an important part of the email narative. If it was Natalee who bought the drinks, then no drugs would have been put in hers. If someone else bought the drinks, it means that one of them could have slipped something in her drink. So, the trio is going to focus very much on this part of the story.

According to what we've heard so far, Natalee was already at C&C's, so it may be more significant that Joran went to Natalee's gambling table rather than who said hello first. Also, if  Joran went to C&C's just before closing, that seems significant to me, also. It seems like a lot trouble to go to for just 1/2 hour of club time.
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Scott
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« Reply #632 on: June 24, 2005, 11:31:29 AM »

Quote from: "nancy_drew"

Can you tell us more about the reported "premeditated murder" charge?  What does this mean?  Does it rule out an accidental death or overdose?
So glad you decided to join us...we have sooooo many questions.

Thanks
~Nancy


If a drug was slipped into NH's drink, that alone could constitute premediation.
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nancy_drew
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« Reply #633 on: June 24, 2005, 11:33:02 AM »

Quote from: "mojo"
as to the charge of ambulance chasing -

Greta Van Susteren's law firm, Coale and Van Susteren, has been named in news reports as having contacted families of ValuJet crash victims.

the firm was censured twice for ambulance chasing!


But, was she suspected of ambulance chasing?  Give me the low down on any large, even respected law firm and we'll all see charges of all kinds in every direction.
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mojo
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« Reply #634 on: June 24, 2005, 11:33:07 AM »

has it ever been  verified what natalee was drinking? in the heat - she was small - alchohol poisoning is not out of the question
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joebob
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« Reply #635 on: June 24, 2005, 11:33:18 AM »

Quote from: "wwizard"
Quote from: "Just Wunderin'"
Don't want to rattle any cages, but I really take exception to BHT saying that NH would never go with these fellows willingly, that she was kidnapped.  BHT needs to wake up and smell the roses.  She cannot bring herself to admit that "her" daughter would ever drink, smoke, do drugs, have sex or act in any manner consistent with most teenage behavior.  Why do you think the other kids aren't talking.  They all went down there to get blasted and get laid!  BHT is a typical southern "lady", whose personal reputation with regard to her family and home are really more important than her concern for her missing daughter.  At one point she made the comment, "I am through protecting myself."  What is that suppose to mean?....protect her reputation, that is what.  She is VERY concerned about what her neighbors and others in her community think of HER.  Take note of her reaction when one of the interviewing reporters tries to broach the subject of Natalee going with the boys, being drunk, having sex; she always brushes that aside and says something to the effect that she doesn't want to dwell on the past, she just wants to find Natalee.  I suspect Natalee did get drunk and did have sex and did, possibly, do some drugs (knowingly or not).  My theory is that she did all this with JVDS and possibly the K brothers and maybe even the D.J. also and then she decided to take a swim in the ocean and just kept on swimming, knowing that her classmates were aware of her behavior and her personal shame and knowing the shame her mother would experience as a result of her doing all these things.  I expect that BTH put so much pressure on her while she was in school and in her community that she just didn't care anymore.  They keep saying that she was so perfect, i.e., 4.0 average, gonna be a doctor, full academic scholarship, never did anything wrong, etc., etc., etc.  Come on people, we have all known parents who push their kids to the end of their rope and then that rope snaps.  In the photos of NH, her eyes are sad.  And, I am now sad for her.

And, just for the record, before anyone goes off on me.  I am a southern woman, a mother of three grown children (2 boys, 1 girl)--none of whom are perfect by a long shot.  Mine would look me in the eye and lie to me and I know that most mothers will admit the same thing.  We don't really know our kids--just as our kids never really know us.

I suspect that JVDS, the K brothers, the DJ and PVDS are all aware of what happened.... and the problem is that they did nothing to help her, they just took advantage of her condition and then let her swim away......... Sad


I am from the south also and I agree with you. Some won't want to hear it though
. The truth can sting.


Well I'm not sure about your scenario..its certainly an option, although hard to reconcile the inconsistencies in the different stories. If she just swam, why would they not just say she swam off?  "Swimming off" is an act of free will.

The only person that really truly knows NH is missing.  

Often, those that work hard also play hard.  My wife and her three sisters all did well in school. All around 4.0 in high school. All had jobs and volunteered at hospitals and other places during high school.  All went to college, all went to graduate school. One becoming valedictorian of her graduate school class. Another became an MD. Raised by republican and religious parents who never miss church (even when travelling)  in a well to do community. The point is that all 4 partied fairly heavily, all drank, all did some amount of drugs, all lived with boyfriends before getting married and without parents knowing anything other than "light drinking".  All were and continually are very close to their mother and my phone bill is good evidence of that.
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mojo
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« Reply #636 on: June 24, 2005, 11:34:12 AM »

Quote from: "nancy_drew"
Quote from: "mojo"
as to the charge of ambulance chasing -

Greta Van Susteren's law firm, Coale and Van Susteren, has been named in news reports as having contacted families of ValuJet crash victims.

the firm was censured twice for ambulance chasing!


But, was she suspected of ambulance chasing?  Give me the low down on any large, even respected law firm and we'll all see charges of all kinds in every direction.


she was a partner, wasn't she?
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wvlady
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« Reply #637 on: June 24, 2005, 11:35:27 AM »

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160558,00.html

anyone posted that yet? if so, sorry.
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Scott
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« Reply #638 on: June 24, 2005, 11:36:13 AM »

Quote from: "Compananzi"

Why does she knows Nat  was kidnapped?, and tells us that the 3 have key info to a larger conspiracy?


If Steve Croes supplies Deepak with roofies, GHB, or X, and Deepak gives it to Joran, who puts the drug in Natalee's drink, and they drive past the Holiday Inn against her consent, you then have all the necessary components of conspiracy and kidnapping.
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iquitos
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« Reply #639 on: June 24, 2005, 11:36:27 AM »

Quote from: "cancon"
well Peeps, here is my two cents for the day and then I have to be good and work, and leave this sad story until Greta at 10:00 pm tonight

I was watching re runs of the Fox coverage late last night and something the editor of Diario said is making me think this story is running in a more heinous direction, I had a "ah ha" moment

Josee said to Alan Colmes that the reason they hauled in Paul is that there are large contradictions between Joran's and Paul's story, he put it, there is something very wrong going on between the father and the son

now add to this the statement by Ms. Croes, our favourite spokesperson that Mr. VDS is a suspect in the disappearance not the cover up

add to this it's been verified that Joran now admits he was alone with Natalee on that beach

which is what the Kalpoe brothers have been saying for quite some time now, add to this you have Joran saying Deepak picked him up then Satish picked him up, come on, surely you can remember which brother picked you up, and if the father is involved it explains why Joran keeps changing his story

add to this some curious things spoken by Beth and Jug - Beth has been reported to have said she suspected Paul even before she met him, now I am assuming she means that night of May 31st and I believe that what happened was that Beth and Jug were at the Holiday Inn Casino getting information, and I believe they viewed or certainly have since viewed the casino videotape and I think Mr. VDS was at the Holiday Inn Casino the same time as Joran AND Natalee

I think Mrs. VDS's story that her husband was sound asleep after he picked up Joran at McDonalds at 11:00 pm are all lies - she's been told lies by her husband and son

I think Mr. VDS was the one Joran called for help

I think Mr. VDS made up the alibi and either he and/or Joran were somehow able to get the boys on side

don't forget, the Kalpoe boys may have not been told exactly what happened and you tend to give your friend the benefit of the doubt, and given who Joran's dad is, they also may have figured he knows what he is talking about, because I hear they admit they gave Joran cover, they are young, you make stupid judgments at that age

the only thing is I don't know where to fit in Croes per se, I find it interesting that even Jug and Beth are confused as where he fits in and they clearly have more information than we do and they've been on the mark on other areas

I also have to wonder if they have forensic results back that they are not disclosing

now I may just be proven wrong on the brothers, they will be in enough trouble for providing the false alibi
 VERY INTERESTING CANCON
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