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[Bill]

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[Curiosity]

Unfortunately for the Kalpoes, if they helped to get rid of evidence they are an assessory to a crime. And if they only  tried to cover for Joren, I imagine they are obstucting justice. Is there any jail time in Aruba for obstructing justice?

[Daniel]

Ms. Ramirez said that the two brothers told her that Natalee didn’t even talk to them, but wanted to swing by the lighthouse, it being her last night there; Natalee and Joran were kissing in the back seat.  By the time they got there, Natalee was not in any shape (my words) to continue, so the Kalpoe brothers dropped her and Joran off at the Marriott beach and went home.

I've now seen this too and I think it could be very significant because it supports the date rape drugs theory.

According to Natalee's friends, when she left with Joran and the Kalpoe brothers, she stuck her head out of the car window and yelled something like "Aruba! Yoohoooo!". A little later she was kissing and fondling with Joran.

According to Mrs. Ramirez, Natalie asked to be returned to her hotel when they were at the lighthouse. This is strange - if she was in a romantic mood, why end it there? I think this indicates that she was beginning to feel unwell and wanted to return.

A little later, near the hotel, Joran asked the brothers to drop him and Natalee at the beach. Why the beach if Natalee wanted to be in the hotel?

Date rape drugs can first induce euphoria ("Aruba Yoohoo" yelling, and oblivious to the dangers of leaving with strangers),  then make a person drowsy (lighthouse, let's go back) and eventually amnesia sets in (no objections when Joran didn't drop her of at the hotel, but at the beach instead).

The pattern fits. Also, if Natalee had had a lot to drink, was exhausted from the vacation (partying, sightseeing, not much sleep), and was on medication of her own, then she may well have overdosed on the beach.  It's beginning to seem ever more plausible.

[nancy_drew]

A possible overdose/drug reaction is very plausible given we don't have proof that Joran has a history of violence, sexual dysfunction, etc.

BUT, it was reported last night that the charges for all four suspects is "premeditated murder", not sure how that fits with an overdose.

If anyone has a good grasp of Dutch law and criminal charges I hope they'll post some additional info here.

[Daniel]

When you spike someone's drink, you assume the risk of killing her. And as it is premeditated, it might qualify as murder even if it was not his intention to kill her.

[Bill]

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[Amy Dawn]

Maybe he is on steroids? Throwing someone through a glass window?

Either he's got emotional problems (dad prob puts alot of pressure on him for selfish reasons) or he's got a drug problem.

Those are my theories.. for this thread anyway, lol.

[Bill]

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[Amy Dawn]

But getting back to the topic, I had been wondering for days what Natalee would be doing with the Kalpoe brothers.  Their mom's explanation is highly plausable in that regard.

I think the only reason why they are involved was because they had the car. From the news reports one of the brothers was anal about his car and didn't like them making out in the back seat, and so says their mom.

So they dropped joran off at the beach with natalie...

[nancy_drew]

A possible overdose/drug reaction is very plausible given we don't have proof that Joran has a history of violence, sexual dysfunction, etc.

BUT, it was reported last night that the charges for all four suspects is "premeditated murder", not sure how that fits with an overdose.

If anyone has a good grasp of Dutch law and criminal charges I hope they'll post some additional info here.

Perhaps some misinformation here.  Joran does indeed have a history of violence:

Fox reported that one mother of a child attending the International School with Van der Sloot told them Van der Sloot is alleged to have thrown someone through a plate glass window in Aruba sometime within the past year.

Also, No-one has been "charged" with anything.  They are held on "reasonable suspicion" only, and one gets the impression that everyone picked up here is held under the same suspicion.

Nit picky, I know, but there it is  

I can't take one snippet from Fox concerning a possible history of violence as fact.  If I recall that came from Geraldo and was debunked. It could be true, but IMO we don't have a full picture of Joran's character, we've also been told he's an excellent student, athlete and charming, kind kid.  It could go either way, but I can't conjure up a false picture of this kid to fit a crime.

The "premeditated murder" charge, or suspicion of such came from Red.  He heard an Aruban official on Larry King last night describe the charge in those words.  I did not see the clip myself, but saw Red's report.

[nancy_drew]

But getting back to the topic, I had been wondering for days what Natalee would be doing with the Kalpoe brothers.  Their mom's explanation is highly plausable in that regard.

I think the only reason why they are involved was because they had the car. From the news reports one of the brothers was anal about his car and didn't like them making out in the back seat, and so says their mom.

So they dropped joran off at the beach with natalie...

My gut tells me the brothers aren't involved in Natalee's disappearance.  Their story is believable. I've communicated with a teacher in Aruba who knows the boys, taught them, and also knows their younger sister who is only 14 and devastated by all this.

The one thing that prevents me from giving them a full pass is Steve Croes (sp).  It is not known if he knew Joran, yet we've been told he knows Depak.  I need to know more about his connection to the case before I can fully give the brothers a pass...

I also think their mother was/is very believable and sincere.

[Catriana]

When you spike someone's drink, you assume the risk of killing her. And as it is premeditated, it might qualify as murder even if it was not his intention to kill her.

I couldn't agree MORE!   Although his intent was not murder, if he gave her a drug, that contributed to her death (if that is what happened).

IF that is what happened, without the presence of such a drug, Natalee would, more than likely, have made her flight home.

I do believe this what happened and I do believe that Daddy VdS was the main character in 'covering' up what happened.

[Daniel]

Maybe he is on steroids? Throwing someone through a glass window?

I wondered that myself, Amy.  He's a big kid, too.  Sort of fits with the althletic scholarship thing, as well.

6 foot 4 is nothing unusual for  Dutch guys his age. I think 6.3 is about average here. Also, I wouldn't call a single incident a 'history of violence'. I myself once pushed a guy through a big glass window pane. We were fooling around during a break at school, pushing and pulling eachother, and suddenly we hit this window and both tumbled right through it. Also, according to his mother, his last girlfriend broke up with him because she thought he was too soft.

Even so, Joran may be a good student and probably a kind person, but he doesn't strike me as either very intelligent or responsible, and with the lack of sense of judgement that comes with many 17yr olds, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he did spike her drink. It's the most plausible explanation that I can think of (for both his and his father's behaviour and that of Natalee), given the limited information that we have.

[Bill]

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[rkymtncjngrl]

Maybe he is on steroids? Throwing someone through a glass window?

I wondered that myself, Amy.  He's a big kid, too.  Sort of fits with the althletic scholarship thing, as well.

6 foot 4 is nothing unusual for  Dutch guys his age. I think 6.3 is about average here. Also, I wouldn't call a single incident a 'history of violence'. I myself once pushed a guy through a big glass window pane. We were fooling around during a break at school, pushing and pulling eachother, and suddenly we hit this window and both tumbled right through it. Also, according to his mother, his last girlfriend broke up with him because she thought he was too soft.

Even so, Joran may be a good student and probably a kind person, but he doesn't strike me as either very intelligent or responsible, and with the lack of sense of judgement that comes with many 17yr olds, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he did spike her drink. It's the most plausible explanation that I can think of (for both his and his father's behaviour and that of Natalee), given the limited information that we have.

   Maybe this is Joran's way of showing his last girlfriend who thought he was too nice that he isn't so sweet and innocent after all.

[Brenda]

A possible overdose/drug reaction is very plausible given we don't have proof that Joran has a history of violence, sexual dysfunction, etc.

BUT, it was reported last night that the charges for all four suspects is "premeditated murder", not sure how that fits with an overdose.

If anyone has a good grasp of Dutch law and criminal charges I hope they'll post some additional info here.

if you slip someone a mickey - and they die - it most certainly IS premeditated.  You may not have known for sure they would die, but point is you gave them something, and didn't give a damn if they did.

[Bill]

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[neworleansbigeasy]

Bill-this completely makes sense as to why she would have gotten into the car. They were freinds to his and he said it was fine. I have doubted the date/rape drug thing all along.