Lively Case Discussion #508 8/7 - 8/8/2006

[Kimmy53]

I think he raped the girl and did something to her.”

To my question where the girl was buried then, he answered:

Okay - according to this line of questioning(if you call it that) Joran says - I think he raped the girl and did something to her

Could it be a difference in translation or did Van der Straten already KNOW Nat was dead when he asked the question - where was she buried then?

Also in the past tense of "buried then" As if he knew she had already been moved.

[Peaches]

Good morning.  

Very interesting stuff here last nite and today.

[Red]

New Front Page Post:

Aruban Prosecutors Will Appeal Paulus Van der Sloot Damages Ruling


http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/08/09/aruban-prosecutors-will-appeal-paulus-van-der-sloot-damages-ruling/

J says to the brothers: You said that he (Joran’s father) said that if there’s no corpse there’s no case, or I don’t know what more sorts of shit.
J says to the brothers: That’s not true, the only thing he (Joran’s father) said that if there’s no body there don’t have a case.
D says to J: That’s true.

Why would anyone ever state such a thing unless they knew no body would ever be found?

[Sol Rosenberg]

Exactly....the boys know of Natalee's fate.

- Sol

[the big hammer]

van der Straaten

He handles interrogations of jvds, but not other two.  He is directly involved w/ sloot throughout questioning, but never kalpoe.

This is another important piece.  And something new (at least to me).

RE statement of June 13.  As noted by others, van der Straaten signs this document on June 17, and presumably submits it then.  This delay is a problem.  This is not only strange, but is procedural breach.  And in case so important to Aruba, this failure to follow procedure is glaring, and an oversight a seasoned, ranking police officer simply would not make.

Unless...there was a reason to.

[Nut44x4]

New Front Page Post:

Aruban Prosecutors Will Appeal Paulus Van der Sloot Damages Ruling


http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/08/09/aruban-prosecutors-will-appeal-paulus-van-der-sloot-damages-ruling/

J says to the brothers: You said that he (Joran’s father) said that if there’s no corpse there’s no case, or I don’t know what more sorts of shit.
J says to the brothers: That’s not true, the only thing he (Joran’s father) said that if there’s no body there don’t have a case.
D says to J: That’s true.

Why would anyone ever state such a thing unless they knew no body would ever be found?

Red.....that is one question that has haunted so many of us from the beginning. If I remember right, PVDS denies saying those words and said his or Jorans...or SOMEONES lawyer said it. I feel that with so many lies abound that they knew authorities would be going in circles with the case and with that they felt safe that the real truth would never be known. Man.....what a SICK bunch of wastes of oxygen!!!

[NM]

Croes demands concrete facts from Verdonk

ARUBA – Justice-minister Rudy Croes (MEP) wants minister Rita Verdonk (VVD) of Immigration to tell him before September 1st, how many Aruban problem youngsters live in the Netherlands.  “If it turns out that the Netherlands is being swamped with problem youngsters from Aruba, then we will have to do something here.  But if this is not the case, then execution of Aruban citizens’ civil rights in the Netherlands is being unnecessarily curtailed in an unacceptable manner”, states the minister in his letter.

As a result of the figures of the Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics, Croes wrote a letter to Verdonk on May 11th.   The figures show that there are hardly problem youngsters from Aruba in the Netherlands.  Croes asked Verdonk to study the information and start a dialogue on the position of Aruban youngsters in the Netherlands.  The Aruban government parts with the increased admittance regulation for Aruban youngsters, because there are hardly any problem youngsters from Aruba in the Netherlands.

“Your bill puts Aruban citizens in a worse position than citizens of other European Union countries, who can establish in the Netherlands without problems.”

Exiling inhabitants of the Royal Dutch Kingdom to another part of the Kingdom based on a not yet determined lack of education, not being able to be self-supporting, or not following an education is according to Croes unfair and in breach with the principle of equality and the principle of legal security.

Croes feels that he has the support of the Council of State, the Association of Dutch Municipalities, and several experts that have all decided negatively about the plans of Verdonk to subject Antillean- and Aruban youngsters to increased admittance requirements.

Croes asks Verdonk to study the bill once more.  “Precipitance is already not wise in general.  Especially when it has to do with the status of people.  We then expect the necessary precision.”  Croes indicated that he is not against preparing people from Aruba that want to establish in the Netherlands.  “But this also has to apply to Dutch citizens that want to establish in Aruba.  Also these persons have to adjust to other values and norms.”

Croes also mentioned the position of persons that have followed their education abroad, while they were born in the Netherlands.  He wonders whether these people also have to comply with the admittance regulations.  If that’s not the case, then such regulation would definitely be discriminating for Aruban citizens.

Thanks Tgal.
IMHO the nl is sending it's problem children and parents to aruba

[2NJSons_Mom]

van der Straaten

He handles interrogations of jvds, but not other two.  He is directly involved w/ sloot throughout questioning, but never kalpoe.

This is another important piece.  And something new (at least to me).

RE statement of June 13.  As noted by others, van der Straaten signs this document on June 17, and presumably submits it then.  This delay is a problem.  This is not only strange, but is procedural breach.  And in case so important to Aruba, this failure to follow procedure is glaring, and an oversight a seasoned, ranking police officer simply would not make.

Unless...there was a reason to.

Exactly, Hammer.  What did van der Straaten have to do from Monday afternoon the 13th until sometime Friday the 17th before signing?  Glaring is exactly what it is, imo.

[sharon]

van der Straaten

He handles interrogations of jvds, but not other two.  He is directly involved w/ sloot throughout questioning, but never kalpoe.

This is another important piece.  And something new (at least to me).

RE statement of June 13.  As noted by others, van der Straaten signs this document on June 17, and presumably submits it then.  This delay is a problem.  This is not only strange, but is procedural breach.  And in case so important to Aruba, this failure to follow procedure is glaring, and an oversight a seasoned, ranking police officer simply would not make.

Unless...there was a reason to.

Perhaps to make the statement inadmissable to a judge.

Like every other piece of evidence.

jmo.

[the big hammer]

Spencer Bachus

FP poster "vicki" called office of Bachus to inquire about case and received reply.  Many thanks to vicki for the efforts.

See FP thread comment under "DEEPAK'S JUNE 11, 2005 STATEMENT"

See Comment number 62.  

Not much, but at least he called Aruba to set up meeting.  It's about time Bachus starts talking about what he's been told by Aruba about this mess of an investigation.  From the letter, and language used, it suggests to me that while Bachus says "disappearance" -- he knows Natalee is dead.

[sb]

...if Joran had stayed home that night, Natalee would be here today.. If the Kalpoe brothers stayed home that night, I believe Natalee would still be dead..

This is a profound statement and is probably very, very close to capturing the truth of what happened..

[Kimmy53]

van der Straaten

He handles interrogations of jvds, but not other two.  He is directly involved w/ sloot throughout questioning, but never kalpoe.

This is another important piece.  And something new (at least to me).

RE statement of June 13.  As noted by others, van der Straaten signs this document on June 17, and presumably submits it then.  This delay is a problem.  This is not only strange, but is procedural breach.  And in case so important to Aruba, this failure to follow procedure is glaring, and an oversight a seasoned, ranking police officer simply would not make.

Unless...there was a reason to.

Exactly, Hammer.  What did van der Straaten have to do from Monday afternoon the 13th until sometime Friday the 17th before signing?  Glaring is exactly what it is, imo.

What this says to me is Van der Straten is waiting on something - perhaps to be sure ALL is taken care of, for the undercover workings to be in place - before he submits this statement.  IMO it was during the time that they were moving her body and/or evidence and he wanted to be sure all incriminating evidence against Joran had been taken care of...

[Anna]

.
Good Morning, Monkeys!

I heard from David Grossman of USAToday but he is only willing to concede a couple of murders happened in Aruba during the last year and says that this gives Aruba a 2.8 per capita rate compared with 5 in the U.S.  

Of course I sent him the four definite murders Sunfreak listed but am asking all monkeys with any memory or details of the murders on Aruba since Natalee disappeared to tell me who and when if they can do so.

I told him I stand by Aruba having a higher murder rate than the U.S. and will send him more names, dates and places.  Also sent him Leslie's daily list of newspapers and Pap translator to verify with.

So he has gone from one murder in the last twenty years to admitting half the murder rate in this country per capita per year.  We need about five more to bring him up to undeniable proof that the rate is higher as determined by us previously.  

Thanks for any help in this.  We had a thread long ago but it is gone, of course. I am going to also send his boss the same information I have sent so far.  If Natalee is counted as a murder also, that gives him five in the last year.  That one in the last twenty years is not only ridiculous but a suspicious thing to say in the first place.

I am not going to let them get away with this misinformation because this is how people become lulled into thinking One Happy Island is safe when nothing could be farther from the truth.

Mainstream Media lies.  They must be big people or think they are.  When I read a blatant lie like this, I always wonder how many timeshares somebody somewhere is sitting on.      

.

[Anna]

.
Please go back and read all the posts as we worked way into the morning last night.  See Elaine's post on Val being in this country until December it would seem.  Is he going to attend school at taxpayers expense here????

.

[the big hammer]

No Body, No Case ?

Not so fast, paulus.  What law books have you been reading?

***********************************************
Burrell faces sentencing in Whelan case

Tuesday Aug 8 16:39 AEST
Bruce Burrell will learn on Wednesday whether he will spend the rest of his life in jail for the kidnapping and murder of Sydney woman Kerry Whelan.

A NSW Supreme Court jury found Burrell, 53, guilty of the 1997 kidnapping and murder of Mrs Whelan, a 39-year-old mother of three, whose body has never been found.

Justice Graham Barr will hand down his sentence on Wednesday morning.

Prosecutors are seeking the maximum penalty of life imprisonment for Burrell.  "The heinousness is so severe as to warrant the maximum penalty of life imprisonment," Crown Prosecutor Mark Tedeschi QC said during sentencing submissions in June.

He compared Burrell's crime to that of a contract killer, saying he carried out a "cold-blooded killing", "purely for financial gain".

Mrs Whelan went missing on May 6, 1997, and was last seen at a hotel carpark in Parramatta in Sydney's west.  The next day, her husband Bernie received a note demanding $US1 million for her safe return.

The Whelan family endured nine years of delays and uncertainty before Burrell was convicted. Burrell has lodged a notice of intention to appeal against his convictions.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=63662

******************************************************

This is an interesting case.  And one that has unique relevance to the strange events on Aruba.  Reuters further states in a separate article
that : "Her (Kerry Whelan's) body has never been found and no evidence has been uncovered about how or where she died."

BTW, the judge threw the book at Burrell; re received a life sentence yesterday.

[Smish]

.
HAMMER,

Because someone tells his about Joran's "Confession" that Deepak killed Natalee and "we buried her"?

This is the time van der Straaten is out of office and Dompig is in.  Perhaps Deepak thought he stood better chances of being treated fairly if Joran's father's best friend was not in office?

Because he is afraid Mickey Johns is gonna beat the crap out of him?

Why do YOU think he dropped the lie at that time?

.

Yes,Thats the reason I think Deepak changed his story.Did we ever find out if Dompig is really related to the Kalpoe's?

[the big hammer]

Thanks to FP poster "Richard" for bring the Austrailian case of Kerry Whelan to the discussion.  Great work.

[Anna]

.
Somehow or other I always thought like Tylergal that it was Rody Croes who put GodPappa/Uncle Jan back in charge of things but that is not what was said at the time.  So we have more underhanded dealings.

In any event, Jan van der Straaten had no business interrogating anybody as that was NOT his job and not even close to it.

>>

Eric Zaandam, President of the Police Union
Our authorities contributed to the attitude of Beth Twitty against Aruba
A.M. Digital
11/10/2005

In voicing their opinion on the Beth Twitty case as Police Union, union president Eric Zaandam finds that Aruba has treated Beth Twitty too good to now be the victim of a call for boycott. It was obvious since the moment that she came with a letter requesting the destitution of the investigating team. For SPA (Police Union) this letter is uncalled for and an offense for the Public Prosecutor and the Police Force.

So far we have been quiet. Because we are aware of the general interest we did not react from the beginning when we concluded that this lady is not serious, certainly when she constantly changes her own version on the case of the disappearance of her daughter.

Beth Twitty had a preferential treatment in Aruba because she was getting all information on the progress of the case. This, according to Zaandam, caused Beth Twitty and her group to think that they can do anything in Aruba. She even went that far to ask FBI to take over the investigation and not to let our own police do the job.

Beth Twitty is an insolent person, interfering with the Public Prosecutor and demanding to impose her wish. This is a lesson for all of us, according to Zaandam. On the other hand our own people, such as the Minister of Justice Rudy Croes, have created the opportunity for Beth Twitty and her group to interfere and make demands in a letter. It was the very Rudy Croes who asked to remove Head Attorney Karen Janssen and Jan van der Straten from the case. We can all remember the day when he (Croes) returned from Brazil and introduced Commissioner Gerold Dompig as the new person in charge of the investigation.
And now because the Government informed that they cannot interfere with the Public Prosecutor where the official are appointed by the Kingdom Government, Beth Twitty and her family now think that our Government does not have any power and that Holland has all say in Aruba. And now the family wants to go to Holland.

According to Zaandam, this situation will not stop until Natalee Holloway is found, dead or alive.

[English language original text]


// posted by Getagrip @ 11/10/2005 11:17:00 AM    
 
http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2005_11_06_getagripmonkey_archive.html


So was it the Rudy Croes/Dompig axis of evil that threw off the investigation instead of vStraaten?  Nah, it was ALL of them working together, in my humble opinion.  Made no difference which was wearing what hat!

.

[sb]

I just caught the part about "2 dogs".

That makes no sense whatsoever. Deepak would not load dogs into his car that he is so picky about, at 2 or 3 AM, to go give a friend a ride. Joran's statement is ridiculous UNLESS he meant "dogs" in the slang sense... but how does that survive translation? Did he say the Dutch word for "dogs", or the Dutch word that would mean "peeps" or "friends" or "cohorts", whatever?  

No wonder they can't solve the case, the perps are delusional about ghosts and dogs and men in black...

I am becoming more and more convinced that that island lives in such a self-induced haze of drugs and booze that they have no sense of what reality possibly could BE. Maybe that's why they lie so much... to them, they have no conception of what the truth really is, so just say whatever comes to mind at the moment.

[Anna]

.
Now someone recently stated that they did not believe that Steve Cohen who served as alleged spokesperson for AHATA and family friend/Defender of the Sloots was a founder at Court TV.  Hard as that is to believe it was reported at the time he took that office.  Maybe he was only a producer and lied on his resume for all I know but here is what was said in one article about his job.

This is important because remember they are the ones hiring Joey Tacopina to host shows, etc. creating clear and undefensible collusion and further need for boycott.

>>

Court TV creator becomes spokesperson for the Strategic Communications Task Force of Aruba
According to Steve Cohen, we have to straighten out Aruba’s image
DIARIO Aruba
12/03/2005

ORANJESTAD(AAN): A press conference given by the Strategic Communications Task Force (SCT) took place on Friday, where the CEO of AHATA and members of the SCT that they held a meeting and they came to the decision to name a special person to be spokesperson for SCT, for everything that has to do with the case of Natalee Holloway.

ATIA’s president, Serge Mansur, said that the decision was to name Steve Cohen for this post.

Steve Cohen has worked as a reporter and presenter in the US, where he was a ‘Senior News Executive’ in Los Angeles and New York.

According to Mr. Mansur, Cohen is one of the creators and producer of the famous Court TV in the US, where he had experience in more than 150 big cases in the courts of the US.
Steve Cohen was also vice president of CBS during 12 years.

This person was on the case from the beginning and has been coming to Aruba since 1979.

Steve Cohen took the podium, where he thanked those who gave him the position of spokesperson.

According to Cohen, 6 months ago, Aruba was a country that was considered as safe, where tourists were safe in their beloved vacations.

Now, 6 months later Aruba is still the same, but the image that the US has o Aruba has changed, because of a worried family and others who think that Aruba did not act fast enough, speak and think badly of Aruba.

The objective in the months to come is to change this back. We do not have the amount of criminality that America has and we have one of the best police corps in the area of the Caribbean.

This, according to Cohen, who said that this is the message that has to be heard for Americans, but Beth Twitty is still saying that the judicial system of Aruba is not working and that it is corrupt.

The fact that a person or family is sad, does not take away that they always have to speak the truth about what has happened. According to Cohen, his role is going to be to let the truth continue to prevail.

The press asked Cohen how he thinks he will do this. According to Cohen, he will try to go on talk shows to try to relay his message to Americans.

SCT also will work closely with the Public Ministry and the investigators of this case, where they will try to let representatives of the Public Ministry or the group of investigators go on one of these programs, after they have had good coaching.

He said that attorney Arlene Ellis Schipper has done a tremendous job, but cannot confront alone all those that they have put against her in the American programs.


// posted by Getagrip @ 12/03/2005 11:39:00 PM    
 
http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2005_11_27_getagripmonkey_archive.html