Lively Case Discussion #508 8/7 - 8/8/2006

[Anna]

.
I was all over Getagrip's website as you can tell, looking for her information on the murders in Aruba for Mr David Grossman.  I miss her.   Not only did she translate for us, she did research as well and was sweeter than Tupelo honey!

This is what Jossy had to say back in October.  I think that someone else posted this a while back but it applies in light of the new statements we are reading:


Wednesday, October 05, 2005
Editorial: Natalee: Details are coming out!
Jossy Mansur - DIARIO Aruba
10/05/2005

During the last two airings of Nancy Grace on Headline News, Beth and Jug Twitty revealed some details that I was not aware of, in relation to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba. Additionally, I was also able to watch an interview with Joran in Holland, in which he throws all the blame of what happened on Natalee.

As the great liar that he is, he wanted to escape blame by accusing the missing girl of all sorts of weaknesses and flaws and paints himself as a gallant movie star. Joran, according from what I could conclude from the interview, did not break (…), and did not do anything, he tried rejecting Natalee’s advances, left her on the beach, and went home. Abandoning her on the beach was, for Joran, very normal!

From a habitual liar, I didn’t expect anything else. Together with his last statement and every other statement he made, which severely contradict each other, I don’t know.

What I do know is that he hasn’t spoken one word of truth during his interview with A Current Affair. All of a sudden, he forgets his own declaration that he left Natalee at the Holiday Inn, where she tripped and then was helped by two security guards; in his other declaration where he goes with Natalee on the beach North of the Marriott, and went to sleep with her on the sand.

Now, Natalee fell asleep, he left and thought that Deepak returned near where Natalee was, raped and killed her. All the statements he made earlier, he forgot in his voluntary amnesia. Now that he is in Holland, he became a saint!
In the shows of Nancy Grace yesterday and the day before, Beth and Jug made revelations which demonstrate uncategorically that the three suspects committed sexual assault against Natalee. This is also confirmed by their own admissions during the interrogations which took place in June. How then can Joran describe Natalee’s underwear in detail, and also her most intimate parts?

With his statement in Holland, Joran has reopened the wound. People can understand if he spoke the truth, but he preferred to continue with his many lies.

At DIARIO, we always thought that Joran, Deepak and Satish never went with Natalee from Carlos and Charlies to the beach North of the Marriott, but that they went to Joran’s apartment, where the above-mentioned took place. That they went to the beach to get rid of her after is possible and even probable.

One fact that hasn’t been completely explored in the first group of fishermen, in the same early morning hours that Natalee disappeared, one or more people broken the doors 1, 2, and 3 of the fishermens’ huts and kept what was in them.
The watchman of the first crew of fishermen observed that the only things missing was a large knife and a large basket. For what do you need a large knife and a basket? They could have used the knife to open the basket to put Natalee’s body, along with some rocks, then go throw it in the sea, far off the coast with a collaborator?

This is a theory which gained more strength when a detector made by an American in Aruba detected human bones, teeth and and iron in the sea! Coincidence? Maybe, but it’s worth investigating the matter more in depth.

Natalee’s case will not disappear. Now that Joran opened his mouth in Holland, he made it again a current event. The irony of all this is that Arubians don’t have anything to do with the case.

The principal suspects is Dutch, the lead investigator was Dutch, the prosecutor is Dutch and the five judges involved are Dutch. If you think about it, an attempted boycott against Aruba is unjust, because it is misdirected and won’t achieve the desired results.

In a democracy, the executive branch cannot intervene in the judicial one. No matter how much pressure is put upon the government, it cannot give any sort of order to the prosecutor nor the judges. On the contrary, ‘trias politica’ can’t work
I have full understanding of the suffering of Natalee’s mom and the uncertainty of the rest of the family. All the want is the truth, to find their child, no matter what condition she may be in, to then put the matter behind and return to their home to resume their lives.

Try putting yourself in her place, that you have a child who has disappeared in the hands of three suspicious individuals, the principal one set free because he wants to continue his studies.

Because of that America is questioning so severely the handing down of justice in Aruba, because things have happened which make no sense, have no justification and can’t be explained legally nor rationally.

[translated by Getagrip]



// posted by Getagrip @ 10/05/2005 05:05:00 PM

[2NJSons_Mom]

OT...

KatzHome, the saint celebrated at Mass today was more familiar to me as her given name, Edith Stein.  I remember when Pope John Paul canonized her.  

back to lurking and working...it is over the hump day though!!

[Sue]

BODY?

I believe paulus had control of body the whole time.

After failed railroad job on Mickey and Abe, the cretin paulus executed disappearance between June 6 and 9, 2005, anno domino.

IMO.

deepak and satish had no idea.  They were another pair of black men awaiting "justice" -- Aruban style.

But then again,"that's just my opinion," or that's what my lawyers told me to say.  

Hey Joey: you know the Roberti family in Bridgeport?

I do, very well.  They told me they're not happy w/ this mess you've made.  Luv & kisses.

Something tells me Joran did not know the body had been completely done away with on 6/10/05.  I think he only learned that at the time the confession was retracted.  Someone told him the body had been incinerated or sent out to sea where it could never be found.  Subsequent to 6/11  when statement is retracted, he seems to be all smiles whereas before he was grim and gloomy.  Paulus has assured him via vanderStraaten or Ben King that body is gone forever.

I agree,I noticed the change in Joran...1st looking sad and like he was crying then looking all smiley and arrogant.

Hammer I think that would explain this statement made
Ex-Commissioner Stanley Zaandam, "the body of Natalee Holloway may have already been found and CVP (Police Commissioner) looked the other way to do a favor for Paul Van der sloot. To exculpate the son of Paul, the CVP and fiscal Chief Prosecutor Karin Janssen made the false arrest of two ex-security guards, Jones and John, called this a "tactical maneuver" and denied them their freedom another 10 days."(Bon Dia, 9/19/2005)

[San]

Another murder in Aruba:  
Raul Croes - attacked in a restaurant with a machete
see Solo di Pueblo April 18, 2006 edition (available online)

Oh, wow, leslie!  Thanks.  Will  send to one Mr Grossman pronto.

I will post a portion of his response to me also.

Thanks again.  This is just what I need to off-set his ridiculous claim of one murder in Aruba in the last twenty years.  Course, he is trying to pass the buck off to his source.  Don't they always???

.

We need to send Mr. Grossman a photo of the guy that was burnt in the cave.

[SunFreak2]

Hello all you beautiful Monkeys!  I'm getting ready to do my prayer time in about 5 minutes.  See ya soon.

[nonesuche]

van der Straaten

He handles interrogations of jvds, but not other two.  He is directly involved w/ sloot throughout questioning, but never kalpoe.

This is another important piece.  And something new (at least to me).

RE statement of June 13.  As noted by others, van der Straaten signs this document on June 17, and presumably submits it then.  This delay is a problem.  This is not only strange, but is procedural breach.  And in case so important to Aruba, this failure to follow procedure is glaring, and an oversight a seasoned, ranking police officer simply would not make.

Unless...there was a reason to.

you sure are using that word "interrogation" very loosely here Hammer!!

Hi All-

I am anxious to read the newest FP statement and am glad Hammer and Klaas are monitoring it along with Red, so that we are culling through what 'truths' might emerge in those commentaries.

There is NO doubt in my mind now, that it was JORAN who made the confession of "something bad happened" that one day later was retracted by Oduber. Stratten's timing of the signing of Joran's statement is telling as well as Hammer pointed out, but also the POS Judge Wit rendered his decision to BAR PAULUS from visitation with Joran on that very same day?

As Carnut says so often Keep It Simple, indeed Carnut. IT IS WHAT IT IS, plain as the nose on our faces. Stratten is as guilty of orchestrating this cover-up as Oduber or Croes or Paulus or any of the other many POS's on that island with a total lack of conscience and integrity, or even simple morality.

Anna, you give USAToday hell for us, go get 'em!!!!

Shizaru, I agree with you there, Bacchus and Greta are a toss-up and in my book equally as guilty as accessories in this ugly cover-up.

[blah]

Another murder in Aruba:  
Raul Croes - attacked in a restaurant with a machete
see Solo di Pueblo April 18, 2006 edition (available online)

Oh, wow, leslie!  Thanks.  Will  send to one Mr Grossman pronto.

I will post a portion of his response to me also.

Thanks again.  This is just what I need to off-set his ridiculous claim of one murder in Aruba in the last twenty years.  Course, he is trying to pass the buck off to his source.  Don't they always???

.

We need to send Mr. Grossman a photo of the guy that was burnt in the cave.

anna - did you include the nude female body that was found in a pile of garbage a few months back?

[nonesuche]

OH and San I'm blaming you for my POS references, you got me rolling  

And one more thing   a dutch poster I know well related that the 'word' in the NL long ago, was that Joran and Satish were lovers. After reading these statements I have to wonder if Satish was just Joran's %itch and did his bidding whenever and however?

[Anna]

[.

We need to send Mr. Grossman a photo of the guy that was burnt in the cave.[/quote]

Absolutely, San!

Too bad I don't have my old hard drive right now to put all this together.

But I just need a couple more murders to make my point of the rate being HIGHER than in the U.S. even though we had close to a dozen at one time.  The two young men who jumped off the buildings of course we can't even count although what are the odds they were also murdered?

If the murder rate does not convince people, the so-calle suicide rate certainly should!  And at first they were going to count the beheading as a "Domestic Disturbance"!  I'll say that was some disturbance all right!

.

[msmarple]

Another murder in Aruba:  
Raul Croes - attacked in a restaurant with a machete
see Solo di Pueblo April 18, 2006 edition (available online)

Thank you, Leslie - I have sent this along to Mr. Grossman at USAToday too. (This was my 4th email to him.)

[Ono]

JORAN'S JUNE 13TH STATEMENT:

During the conversation Joran showed differing emotions. Sometimes he cried, sometimes he was direct in his answers.

These interrogations are supposed to be video taped.  I want to see if Joran's tears match up with what Van der Straaten's statement.

ARUBA WHERE ARE THE VIDEOS OF THESE INTERROGATIONS. I WANT TO MATCH WORD FOR WORD.  WE WON'T SEE THE VIDEOS BECAUSE ALL THESE DOCUMENTS ARE TAMPERED WITH DID THEY DISAPPEAR IN THE BIG BLACK HOLE.

In my opinion, he threw that emotional pap in there in hopes that the reader will now believe that at long last, the truth was being told by Joran.

[nonesuche]

Anna-

What about the windsurfer who vanished from the HI without a trace, or the young boy who vanished in the waters while jet-skiing with that older man? I wish I had kept that information.

[Anna]

[anna - did you include the nude female body that was found in a pile of garbage a few months back?

Yes, I have it, thanks!  Wish I also had a nice photo or two for him, too.

 

[blah]

[anna - did you include the nude female body that was found in a pile of garbage a few months back?

Yes, I have it, thanks!  Wish I also had a nice photo or two for him, too.

 

the photo of this one was posted on the front page(or one of the pages) of one of the Aruban newspapers at the time.  I dont know if anyone still has a link or not.

Also, there was a body found in the water not too long ago(they had a picturte of it wrapped in a green or blue tarp), dont know if it turned out to be a murder for sure or not.

[Ono]

I'm telling you these statements make me believe that Deepak is just a mean stupid vile guy in all of this.. I'm now interested in Satish more than Deepak and might of helped Joran and others with Natalee.. Deepak is a joke and they all know it on that island..

Questions:  Satish isn't the one that Joran called to goto C&C and therefore that makes me question Satish's role in the above.. Deepak was called because of his car and the two brothers will do anything that Joran wants..  Remember that these two brothers were not Joran's first choice that night.. I again say if Joran had stayed home that night, Natalee would be here today.. If the Kalpoe brothers stayed home that night, I believe Natalee would still be dead..

In my opinion, I think Joran has two sets of drivers that he pays...The Kalpoes had to do it as the paid drivers in his little enterprise were busy.

[Ono]

Good morning, all.

Something caught my eye this AM while rereading the statements.

Joran's 6/13 statement was signed by VanderStraaten on 6/17, approx. 5 days after the statement.  The other statements taken by various officers appear to have been signed same date 6/10, 6/11, etc. by said officers.

This may have no significance, but I find it curious that there was such a delay with that 6/13 staement.  

Wish my detective BIL was still living...he'd have so much to say.

I think he waited until the dust had settled from the weekend's "confession".......he was brought in to salvage & repair the damage and he didn't want it to appear that way if the dates were scrutinized.

[San]

OH and San I'm blaming you for my POS references, you got me rolling  

And one more thing   a dutch poster I know well related that the 'word' in the NL long ago, was that Joran and Satish were lovers. After reading these statements I have to wonder if Satish was just Joran's %itch and did his bidding whenever and however?

Guilty as charged  

[klaasend]

OH and San I'm blaming you for my POS references, you got me rolling  

And one more thing   a dutch poster I know well related that the 'word' in the NL long ago, was that Joran and Satish were lovers. After reading these statements I have to wonder if Satish was just Joran's %itch and did his bidding whenever and however?

Guilty as charged  

Let's move this on to page 50 so I can close a window  

[San]

OH and San I'm blaming you for my POS references, you got me rolling  

And one more thing   a dutch poster I know well related that the 'word' in the NL long ago, was that Joran and Satish were lovers. After reading these statements I have to wonder if Satish was just Joran's %itch and did his bidding whenever and however?

Guilty as charged  

Let's move this on to page 50 so I can close a window  

OK

[Ono]

From Joran's statement:

On my question to Joran whether he can tell me what happened after the girl had fallen asleep on the beach near Fisherman's Hut, he answered:

“I called DEEPAK and he came with two dogs. I think he raped the girl and did something to her.”

Ok - Where and what was JOran doing at this time?  Although I don't believe J's story- how could he explain that he saw Deepak come with 2 dogs?  Then he speculates - on what does he base this speculation?

Is this the first we've ever head of the two dogs?  Does he really mean a slang term for people of some sort?  Like bring on the dogs?

Hmm - I never have thought of it like that..

BUT - OMG - Something just hit me - The mattress with the DOG'S BLOOD on it.
We all know Joran would not hesitate to harm a dog...

      OMG..