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Author Topic: RBN # 23 - Evening 6/24/05- Early Morning 6/25/05  (Read 198772 times)
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BlueBob
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« Reply #300 on: June 24, 2005, 11:46:47 PM »

So, what I'm finding in surfing, is that the police have announced that they do think a murder occurred.  Is that right?
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chelsblu
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« Reply #301 on: June 24, 2005, 11:46:50 PM »

Quote from: "Scott"
Quote from: "chelsblu"
 
if she was not kidnapped or drugged, and say died from choking on a hamburger..would that still be premeditated or something lesser?


Huh?  You're asking me if Natalee were to voluntarily go in the car with Joran, Deepak and Satish...they stop at McDonald's, head up to the lighthouse, and while there, Natalee is, of her own volition, eating a Big Mac, and chokes to death..is that premeditated?

Unless she started choking in their presence, and the 3 boys said, 'screw her...she's better off dead', there's no crime committed.  It would truly be an accidental death.


Okay maybe my analogy was not the greatest..I was inferring that if the death was truly unintentional -- say she did die of alcohol poisoning or because she didn't have her asthma medicine or insulin -- (through no fault the boys but they freaked) in  the US that would not be premeditated. It would be covering up a crime because he was scared sh!tless.
So my point was..I wonder..do Aruban LE truly think it was PRE-meditated murder as you defined (that they went in with malice aforethought)..OR could their definition be different than ours. ANd could their definition be one that would make lying or covering up accidental death pre-meditated.

Never mind..it's not that important and I can't even follow what I just wrote......just curious...we've got all of these legal experts saying pre-meditated but none are allowing for the langauge barriar .. Wink

I personally think that complicity charge could be because he allowed Joran to go to Casinos, clubs and drink all night long, they might be saying that he allowed the circumstances that allowed something bad to happen. Like getting charged because a kid drank a beer at your house and had a wreck on the way home.
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a Troll
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« Reply #302 on: June 24, 2005, 11:47:18 PM »

Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
KackyLacky---Your scenario just doesnt pan out. Paulus VD SLOOT is a TRAINED Lawyer he of all people know that an accidental death is NO-WAY a Prosecutorial Murder Charge. If anything he would have told his son Joran to immediately contact the Police. I just doont buy an accidential death cover-up. The Boy Joran would easily get out of any rap if that scenario had happened. There has to motive to prove Murder, and if there is no motive there is no murder.

GuyWdog

I agree 100%.  If you are innocent, your parent wouldn't suggest you "saying nothing" (although an attorney knowing you committed a crime might...hmmm?) when a parent is at your doorstep at 3am looking for their missing daughter.  I just can't image ANY reason for them to lie OR to say nothing, unless they were trying to cover their behinds about something.

Simple, really.  Suppose Joran is innnocent, but his dad doesn't know he is innocent.   Or Joran is guilty and dad knows he is guilty.   Or dad doesn't know either way so he's playing it safe.
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Leila
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« Reply #303 on: June 24, 2005, 11:47:42 PM »

Quote from: "HannieC"
What crime??... We don`t even know IF there was a crime commited


Nataleeís favorite song
The first paragraph was her senior quote written in the yearbook.
Lyrics for Free Bird by Lynyrd Skynyrd

If I leave here tomorrow
Would you still remember me
For I must be traveling on now
Thereís too many places I gotta see
And if I stay here with you girl
Things just wouldnít be the same
For Iím free as a bird now
And this bird you can not change
And this bird you can not change
And this bird you can not change
Lord knows I canít change
Bye bye its been sweet love
Though this feeling I canít change
Please donít take it so bad now
Cause Lord knows Iím to blame
And if I stay here with you girl
Thing just wouldnít be the same
For Iím as free as a bird now
And this bird you can not change
And this bird you can not change
And this bird you can not change
Lord knows I canít change
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coco
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« Reply #304 on: June 24, 2005, 11:49:02 PM »

Can we list specific fact issues that bother us still ... like:
- Natalee's medicine?
- Natalee's passport - this came up this afternoon
- precise definition of complicity under Aruban law
- "the missing guy"


others?
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absolut
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« Reply #305 on: June 24, 2005, 11:49:10 PM »

Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "friend of monkeys"
Quote from: "Compananzi"
Quote from: "bluebob"
I could be all wrong, but. . .looking at some of the pictures of Natalee - she seems really thin in the recent photos.  Just wondering if she lost weight for prom, like girls (my daughter) do.  110 pounds is thin for her height. . .with her system already trying to handle the alcohol, possibly some of her own medication too - if she was then given drugs, it's easy to see what might have happened.


I hope it ends soon, getting tired second guessing back and forth...Perhaps its time to take Joran back the scene of the crime.


where do u guess that is??????


Marriot Beach, and a drop site.


u think she went on a boat??? short ride??? where is wiz???
p.s. soory about the jump head first thing... Embarassed  Embarassed


The only piece I don't have a theory about is the drop site. Unless it was straight out into the ocean, sink the body and let the currents take her away. Or where did Dad take her.
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HannieC
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« Reply #306 on: June 24, 2005, 11:49:26 PM »

I think the only reason the LE did that is to cover all bases, if it`s ever go to trial...
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If you create a theory, you fall in the trap of trying to fit the facts to your theory...
nancy_drew
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« Reply #307 on: June 24, 2005, 11:49:38 PM »

Quote from: "bluebob"
Where is the best place to get an update on the last 10 hours or so?


I missed alot too....but, the only news I recall is a further explanation of the charges of all five of them.  I suggest you go to Fox or CNN to get a good description. Basically Joran's is the worst, the other boys second and the Dad third.

All five are expected to be in court soon, one report said tomorrow.  They are flying in a judge to interrogate them all.

That's about it...maybe someone else can add to this.
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KackyLacky
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« Reply #308 on: June 24, 2005, 11:50:37 PM »

Quote from: "da wench"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
KackyLacky---Your scenario just doesnt pan out. Paulus VD SLOOT is a TRAINED Lawyer he of all people know that an accidental death is NO-WAY a Prosecutorial Murder Charge. If anything he would have told his son Joran to immediately contact the Police. I just doont buy an accidential death cover-up. The Boy Joran would easily get out of any rap if that scenario had happened. There has to motive to prove Murder, and if there is no motive there is no murder.

GuyWdog

I agree 100%.  If you are innocent, your parent wouldn't suggest you "saying nothing" (although an attorney knowing you committed a crime might...hmmm?) when a parent is at your doorstep at 3am looking for their missing daughter.  I just can't image ANY reason for them to lie OR to say nothing, unless they were trying to cover their behinds about something.


as I said in a lower post, this goes thru my mind at times. That said, I am a child of a parent and grandparents of Norway, and I kind of understand how those parents think.

To this day, my Grandmother covers for her son, the alcoholic who everyone know steals from family by saying he is just trying to get ahead and needs help. I bet there are some here from Europe or from recent European descent who understand what their "family's name" means in the world.

I could see my grandfather covering for one of his kids, just because reputation is everything, I mean almost everything to them. It is hard to understand the degree that reputation means to us as Americans.

But, I agree, I wouldn't cover like this for my child, I am not in no way shape or form, rationalizing or excusing anything the VdS's may have done, please understand that!
KackyLacky
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:45 pm

OK I have not taken sides so to speak, but By God if this was my daughter I guess I would be considered a cowgirl, because I would leave no stone unturned. If this was my son, and I have one who is in Iraq as we speak, I would ORDER him to talk to the parents of a girl who came to my door in the middle of the night saying he was the last known person with her. I would MAKE him tell what he knew.......no if ands or buts, and if it incriminated him, then I would deal with that then.
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LilOrphan
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« Reply #309 on: June 24, 2005, 11:50:41 PM »

Hello, all...

Am I the only one who can gladly never read the lyrics to Freebird, again?  Bad enough they're an overrated and overplayed band.... Smile
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BlueBob
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« Reply #310 on: June 24, 2005, 11:50:43 PM »

Gracias, Nancy-Drew por la informacion.  Will check the MSM and brb.
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melrose
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« Reply #311 on: June 24, 2005, 11:51:19 PM »

Hi all,
I wish when Gretal was at the Marriott beach she would have turned off the camera lights.  I looked like it would have been pitch black there without them.  Not a place I would want to be in the middle of the night.
BTW did we just lose pages?
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BlueBob
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« Reply #312 on: June 24, 2005, 11:51:53 PM »

Yes, L. Orphan, you are the only one in the whole wide world who does not appreciate Freebird.  Sorry.
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neil
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« Reply #313 on: June 24, 2005, 11:52:02 PM »

If I were writing a novel, I would have all the things that have already happened in this case as the beginning.

The end would have Natalee living in the US under an assumed identity after ther family collected on the five million dollar insurance policy that her stepfather had her buy on her 18th birthday.  The rational for such a large policy without suspicion would be that she could lock in a low premium rate at such a young age and that her insurance man stepfather had a strong belief in over insuring as both protection and as an investment.

Of course Natalee and her family hatched the whole plot to make money and Natalee was just looking for a patsy when she lured Joran to C&C and later got Joran to leave her on the beach that night, after which her stepfather's pals pick her up on the beach and take her away to make it look like Joran did her in.  She never thought the incompentent authorities would have more than suspicion of Joran and the fact that he was trying not to get in trouble with his parents led to the made up story which in turn led to his unintended conviction for murder.

Just a better way to think of this than to face the high probability that Natalee is deceased from an as yet known cause at the hands of an as yet unproven party.  Probably a not much less supported idea than half of the theories advanced anyway.
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absolut
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« Reply #314 on: June 24, 2005, 11:52:11 PM »

Quote from: "coco"
Can we list specific fact issues that bother us still ... like:
- Natalee's medicine?
- Natalee's passport - this came up this afternoon
- precise definition of complicity under Aruban law
- "the missing guy"


others?


I have many questions for the MBHS kids on the trip, but I have given up on those.
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coco
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« Reply #315 on: June 24, 2005, 11:52:35 PM »

Tonight lawyers talking to Greta or was it Jug? said that they charge the top possible charges to start the investigation then sort them out before bringing to trial - did I get that right?

so if I were an Aruban prosecutor, I would go for these big charges like premeditated murder and then assume I might be downgrading that to manslaughter (or equiv) or even criminal negligence or such?

In Dutch law, is there the responsibility to help someone in distress or danger (which we don't have here)?
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absolut
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« Reply #316 on: June 24, 2005, 11:54:19 PM »

Quote from: "neil"
If I were writing a novel, I would have all the things that have already happened in this case as the beginning.

The end would have Natalee living in the US under an assumed identity after ther family collected on the five million dollar insurance policy that her stepfather had her buy on her 18th birthday.  The rational for such a large policy without suspicion would be that she could lock in a low premium rate at such a young age and that her insurance man stepfather had a strong belief in over insuring as both protection and as an investment.

Of course Natalee and her family hatched the whole plot to make money and Natalee was just looking for a patsy when she lured Joran to C&C and later got Joran to leave her on the beach that night, after which her stepfather's pals pick her up on the beach and take her away to make it look like Joran did her in.  She never thought the incompentent authorities would have more than suspicion of Joran and the fact that he was trying not to get in trouble with his parents led to the made up story which in turn led to his unintended conviction for murder.

Just a better way to think of this than to face the high probability that Natalee is deceased from an as yet known cause at the hands of an as yet unproven party.  Probably a not much less supported idea than half of the theories advanced anyway.


Fanfiction at it's best but in this case would really be totally shocked?
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Another K in Texas
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« Reply #317 on: June 24, 2005, 11:54:24 PM »

If it were insulin, than as a diabetic she would not be supposed to drink at all.

When I  too a youth group to Europe, chaperones had to keep all meds--and the only ones students were allowed to keep were inhalers and those vials for a couple of kids with bad insect sting allergies.
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natfortplum
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« Reply #318 on: June 24, 2005, 11:54:53 PM »

Quote from: "bluebob"
I could be all wrong, but. . .looking at some of the pictures of Natalee - she seems really thin in the recent photos.  Just wondering if she lost weight for prom, like girls (my daughter) do.  110 pounds is thin for her height. . .with her system already trying to handle the alcohol, possibly some of her own medication too - if she was then given drugs, it's easy to see what might have happened.



I noticed the weight change, also, but I was thinking more along the lines of illness.hmmm
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columbo
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« Reply #319 on: June 24, 2005, 11:55:33 PM »

>>>While watching Greta tonight she confirmed that Joran was gambling all day with his dad at the Holiday Inn, until his dad got tired and went home. I know that we knew that Joran was at the hotel casino (and met Natalee in the casino), but did we know that his dad was there with him all day? Did dad meet Natalee and have a conversation with her by any chance?<<<

Hmmm.... I didn't know that Dad was with Joran at the HI casino earlier that night. Heard it for the first time on Greta tonight (sorry if I'm slow on the news).

Could it be possible that the Dad "pimped out" his son to get him girls? I remember threads relating to the topic a few nights ago, butI didn't really pay attention to them. After learning more about the elder VDS's past...possible illigitimate child, clueless wife, etc. Is it possible that he encouraged his son to hook up with girls for himelf??  His wife WAS out of town.

Maybe Joran brought her to the beach only to hook up with DAD, she resisted, things got ugly and something bad happened.

COULD DAD HAVE BEEN WAITING AT THE BEACH FOR NATALEE???? What do you guys think? There is no account of Paul's whereabouts during this whole mess, other than he was home asleep and there is noone to backup his alibi because he was home alone (wife was away).
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