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Author Topic: RBN # 23 - Evening 6/24/05- Early Morning 6/25/05  (Read 200810 times)
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RazzyBerry
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« Reply #800 on: June 25, 2005, 04:32:11 AM »

Quote from: "absolut"
Quote
1. It seemed that J's purpose that evening was to go to that bar and pick up Natalee. Her friend said he did not say much, he just followed her around. (per interview on Fox)


Casino?


conflicting stories.
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absolut
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« Reply #801 on: June 25, 2005, 04:37:25 AM »

Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "Professor"
The collective intelligence of the blogs is greatly exaggerated. What we get here are mostly are a lot of ^5's and LOL's and backslapping and planning for barbeques when this is all done. Mutual self-congratulation. I just hope that the FBI and the Aruban police force doesn't succumb to this herd mentality.


I kinda take offense to those statements about this forum. We have spent hours today working to prune and change the postings going into the Rumor and breaking news threads as well as creating new places for people to post and encouraging them to do so. Just the page count on the last 2 threads shows improvement in these 2 areas.


Absolute, you are a budding journalist. I have visited your web page and was impressed at your compilation of news. You will have a great future in the news business. But, puuuleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze don't let the promises of a barbeque warp your mind. Unless you follow your own gut instincts, the BBQ that you attend may be your own.


My final theory and yours are very similar. As for my gut instinct, I back them up with facts that the majority can agree on. Since you and are using the same facts, your post have now confused me.

I am not a budding journalist, my english, grammar and spelling SUCK. I have a very satisfying career now well outside the news business. The talk of get togethers goes far beyond the case of Natalee Holloway it goes to building a community with a bigger purpose. Next week it could be your son, your daughter, and someone somewhere has to keep them in the MSM and generate a public interest.
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hithere
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« Reply #802 on: June 25, 2005, 04:38:24 AM »

by the way, as far a the water search that is starting today, assuming that thay search 10 miles out, which is about how far i would guess someone could go at night, dump a body  Sad  and be back before light (also it makes it easier to figure  Very Happy   )  

they will have to search 411 sq miles.  a rep from eccusearch said that they could search swaths of 800 ft wide.  that would work out to take about 82 hours.  i'm tired so i might have messed up the math.  i assumed they would go about 5 mph.  also, that does not count putting down divers, which would probably take 30 min or so.  depending on the condition of the water
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Whitney
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« Reply #803 on: June 25, 2005, 04:41:21 AM »

I have to agree with the Professor and I'm the guiltiest of us all; I can't resolve the VDS family with their imputed crimes; I can "feel the pain" of the Twittys but I find myself niggling with stuff I've seen in their 24/7 TV appearances...

For me, I'd rather that Lorenzo Van Rijn was the captor of NH and that the Aruba polis with the FBI rescued NH from the basement.  that Beth and Anita would hug and kiss and that Jug would slap ol' Paulus on the back in tears and apologize to him profusely for having cut him short...but that doesn't appear a possiblity, at least tonight.

So, I'm wishing my mentor sleuths, here, a good night and the keen minds to figure this one out.  I'll come back tomorrow for sure and be the first to congratulate you for doing so!  

thanks.
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Shell
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« Reply #804 on: June 25, 2005, 04:41:24 AM »

Yes absolut, I know. They HAD met before, however briefly, but she did introduce herself to him (that day at the casino?).  He showed up  where the group went over a period of days, hence they recognized him). What I am saying is, the last evening before the group left he showed up at C and C, and from what I gather he knew that group would be there. Now to show up at such a late hour? Why was he so hell bent on catching a ride to that bar? He gets there and her friend says he didn't say much, just seemed to follow Natalie around.
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chelsblu
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« Reply #805 on: June 25, 2005, 04:44:50 AM »

Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "chelsblu"
Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "chelsblu"
absolut, where do you get the 9:30 SUnday night time. I don't remember ever seeing an actual time of being at casino.


Two close friends on O Reilly who were clearing up the story. Not dash and Ed but 2 others.


thanks. missed that. Maybe we can get another update on your timeline soon?


My smartass answer at 430am is what timeline? We don't know anything and I would be a fool to document that we do.

The right answer is look for updates summarys and timelines from several posters later on this morning.


My smartass response: "perhaps we're getting a little tired" and not knowing anything certainly hasn't stopped the collective we from documenting up to now.  Laughing

The right response is my bad. I thought I remembered you posting  before a timeline of sorts based on what we've heard from statements and other. And since other posts from you were asking about times I thought maybe  you were keeping up with. I'll look for it elsewhere. Thanks.
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WonderWoman
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« Reply #806 on: June 25, 2005, 04:48:38 AM »

www.useless-knowledge.com


People here in the coffee shop say the last people to see a missing person are, indeed, logical suspects. I beg to differ: the last people to seen a missing person are not suspect. That's a logical absurdity. A few years ago, a man disappeared under circumstances not unlike those here. He was missing for years. No suspects (no one knew who had seen him last - thank god). When a psychic was called in by police, the man and his pickup - also missing - were located at the bottom of a water-filled quarry. Lost on a country road, he had driven over a cliff, fallen into the water, and drowned.

If someone had been seen with this guy with anyone, and authorities had followed the nitwit procedure demanded by investigative geniuses like Greta Van Susteren, Bill O'Reilly, and the paragon of cool reason and rhetoric Sean Hannity, someone would have gone to jail. Meanwhile, O. J. Simpson and Michael Jackson are innocent. Great system you've got here, folks.

Meanwhile, maybe you ought to leave the Arubans alone?
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absolut
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« Reply #807 on: June 25, 2005, 04:50:16 AM »

Like shell and I were just discussing I can't even figure out an accurate time or day to put the Natalee/Joran meeting the casino. That is just the tip conflicts I now have.

Here is a new one I haven't even posted. The island is small. They leave CNC at 1:00am drive...........3am Marriott beach yet part of the Brothers Alibi is online at 2am. If everything on the island is 10-12 minutes by car 2 hours is a lifetime to get to 3am.
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absolut
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« Reply #808 on: June 25, 2005, 04:52:07 AM »

Quote from: "WonderWoman"
www.useless-knowledge.com


People here in the coffee shop say the last people to see a missing person are, indeed, logical suspects. I beg to differ: the last people to seen a missing person are not suspect. That's a logical absurdity. A few years ago, a man disappeared under circumstances not unlike those here. He was missing for years. No suspects (no one knew who had seen him last - thank god). When a psychic was called in by police, the man and his pickup - also missing - were located at the bottom of a water-filled quarry. Lost on a country road, he had driven over a cliff, fallen into the water, and drowned.

If someone had been seen with this guy with anyone, and authorities had followed the nitwit procedure demanded by investigative geniuses like Greta Van Susteren, Bill O'Reilly, and the paragon of cool reason and rhetoric Sean Hannity, someone would have gone to jail. Meanwhile, O. J. Simpson and Michael Jackson are innocent. Great system you've got here, folks.

Meanwhile, maybe you ought to leave the Arubans alone?


Don't forget Robert Blake.
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RazzyBerry
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« Reply #809 on: June 25, 2005, 04:52:15 AM »

Quote from: "WonderWoman"
www.useless-knowledge.com


People here in the coffee shop say the last people to see a missing person are, indeed, logical suspects. I beg to differ: the last people to seen a missing person are not suspect. That's a logical absurdity. A few years ago, a man disappeared under circumstances not unlike those here. He was missing for years. No suspects (no one knew who had seen him last - thank god). When a psychic was called in by police, the man and his pickup - also missing - were located at the bottom of a water-filled quarry. Lost on a country road, he had driven over a cliff, fallen into the water, and drowned.

If someone had been seen with this guy with anyone, and authorities had followed the nitwit procedure demanded by investigative geniuses like Greta Van Susteren, Bill O'Reilly, and the paragon of cool reason and rhetoric Sean Hannity, someone would have gone to jail. Meanwhile, O. J. Simpson and Michael Jackson are innocent. Great system you've got here, folks.

Meanwhile, maybe you ought to leave the Arubans alone?


We dont consider California part of the real USA so those trials arent very good examples.  California suffers from Hollywood syndrome where body builders can run the government and the King of Pop can rape little boys.
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gargriff49
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« Reply #810 on: June 25, 2005, 04:53:43 AM »

Quote from: "cjm"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "nancy_drew"
I agree with you Razzy...the date rape drug seems illogical to me.  I wasn't certain about the dad...but, the timeline is tight and Joran couldn't do this alone.  I suspect he never told Depak and Satish the real story. I don't think his ego would allow that.  I'm hoping if that's the case those boys don't do jail time.  To me, they seem like great kids.  Could be wrong.


Without the date-rape drug, we have a straight Ted Bundy operation. Lure the girl away from the pack, use the Kalpoe brothers, the lack of a body, and the changing stories as plausible deniability, get her into a desolate spot, rape and murder her. Then let the legal system (which he knows very well) work its magic.


You don't have to have a Ted Bundy.  You could have something like a Robert Chambers.

Joran wanted to have sex with Natalee, Natalie said no and Joran didn't stop.  Joran may have killed her if she struggled, she may have yelled for help and he killed her, or he killed her to stop her from telling.

Joran is a very big young man, 6'5. Natalie was/is only 5'4.


1 closed fist blow to the head from a person his size to a person her size could easily be fatal.
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RazzyBerry
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« Reply #811 on: June 25, 2005, 04:55:29 AM »

Quote from: "absolut"
Like shell and I were just discussing I can't even figure out an accurate time or day to put the Natalee/Joran meeting the casino. That is just the tip conflictions I now have. Here is a new I haven't even posted. The island is small. They leave CNC at 1:00am drive...........3am Marriott beach yet part of the Brother Alibi is online at 2am. If everything on the island is 10-12 minutes by car 2 hours is a lifetime to get to 3am.


her friends stated in an fox interview that he was just sitting there playing poker or blackjack on the last night she was there not really doing anything and she came up to him and introduced herself.  They didnt indicate they she had met him before that night.
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absolut
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« Reply #812 on: June 25, 2005, 04:57:06 AM »

Quote from: "RazzyBerry"
Quote from: "absolut"
Like shell and I were just discussing I can't even figure out an accurate time or day to put the Natalee/Joran meeting the casino. That is just the tip conflictions I now have. Here is a new I haven't even posted. The island is small. They leave CNC at 1:00am drive...........3am Marriott beach yet part of the Brother Alibi is online at 2am. If everything on the island is 10-12 minutes by car 2 hours is a lifetime to get to 3am.


her friends stated in an fox interview that he was just sitting there playing poker or blackjack on the last night she was there not really doing anything and she came up to him and introduced herself.  They didnt indicate they she had met him before that night.


Her mother and jug (seperately) on multiple occasions, as well as Ed and dash stated earlier times. Some they say were confirmed by video in the casino.
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RazzyBerry
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« Reply #813 on: June 25, 2005, 05:00:29 AM »

Quote from: "absolut"
Quote from: "RazzyBerry"
Quote from: "absolut"
Like shell and I were just discussing I can't even figure out an accurate time or day to put the Natalee/Joran meeting the casino. That is just the tip conflictions I now have. Here is a new I haven't even posted. The island is small. They leave CNC at 1:00am drive...........3am Marriott beach yet part of the Brother Alibi is online at 2am. If everything on the island is 10-12 minutes by car 2 hours is a lifetime to get to 3am.


her friends stated in an fox interview that he was just sitting there playing poker or blackjack on the last night she was there not really doing anything and she came up to him and introduced herself.  They didnt indicate they she had met him before that night.


Her mother and jug (seperately) on multiple occasions, as well as Ed and dash stated earlier times. Some they say were confirmed by video in the casino.


ok  i didnt hear that scenario.  I knew there was more information on the videos but I didnt know what.  I can almost picture him sitting there nonchalant trying to act cool knowing shes going to come up to him when she sees him sitting there.
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absolut
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« Reply #814 on: June 25, 2005, 05:01:30 AM »

With the conflict I really can't state either as fact.

For all I know they met 3 days before and his parents were in holland and she spent 2 nights at his apartment and not at the hotel and the reason no one thought anything of it the last night is she hadn't been there the previous 2.

I don't believe that, and it isn't my gut instinct. It is also not my theory of what happened.

But no one has said she was in her room the other nights.
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sb
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« Reply #815 on: June 25, 2005, 05:01:51 AM »

Before I jump off to bed I want to get one thing in here.

The swings on this board today have been unbelievable! One minute Joran is a dangerous psychopathic Ted Bundy figure who killed Natalee in cold blood, the next minute he is a "victim" too and we want to go off looking for missing tourist guys. And round and round it goes and where it stops, nobody knows.

In my EXTREMELY humble opinion, knowing full well my limitations, I think that the whole scenario of Joran killing Natalee in a fit of rage is NOT likely. I think that the bringing in of Croes and PVDS is a marker for some wider story... STILL. Bear in mind that if Joran used no drugs obtained from Croes, Croes being implicated makes no sense. Joran barely knew the guy... he is NOT gonna call him to dump a body for him. I doubt that even the bros. were up to that kind of business.

Natalee's behavior as related by MBHS kids (and they are the ONLY ones to put any credence in at all) does NOT seem to favor "ecstacy" use based on the REPORTED side-effects of that drug. It resembles Rohypnol MUCH more closely, again based on the reported way that drug acts. Wasn't Joran called "Roofie King" on one of his blogs?

The only way to prove anything at all would if forensics showed that Natalee was at the VDS house at some point, then we could say that he drugged her, took her home, etc. Probably for a photo shoot, MAYBE for a handoff to unknown person(s), who knows?

I am nodding off to sleep so I will close, but I want to say that I am not convinced that Natalee isn't alive and being held by someone. I don't think Joran intentionally killed her. He loves himself too much to risk a murder rap. Think on that.

Pray for Natalee and her family!
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Natalee's family/friends still need our prayers.
chelsblu
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« Reply #816 on: June 25, 2005, 05:07:43 AM »

I don't think the video showed them together unless was mentioned in another interview after this one.....

HOLLOWAY: Well, the first thing we did, we had three citizens here. They work for an international company. They took us around. We immediately began reviewing the situation, and we actually reviewed some video footage from the Holiday Inn, the hotel casino, and just tried to pinpoint who this young man was that Natalee was last seen with and just began our own family investigation.

VAN SUSTEREN: You actually sat down and looked at this video?

HOLLOWAY: Yes, I did.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did you spot Natalee in the video?

HOLLOWAY: No, it wasn't to spot Natalee in the video, it was just to make an identification of the young man that Natalee was last seen with.

VAN SUSTEREN: But you weren't here, so how would you be in a position to even know who this young man was?

HOLLOWAY: Through some of her classmates. And this young man had spent time with these children. He had been with them for a couple of days. They knew this young man. They knew his first name. They had spent hours with him. So it wasn't a secret. It wasn't a secret who she left with.

VAN SUSTEREN: Were they sort of having sort of, like, dating each other?

HOLLOWAY: No, absolutely not.

VAN SUSTEREN: It was just part of a group?

HOLLOWAY: Part of a group.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did her friends see anything about this young man, anything distinctive about him or problems with him?

HOLLOWAY: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

VAN SUSTEREN: Alcohol, drugs?

HOLLOWAY: Absolutely not.

VAN SUSTEREN: Nice kid, as far as they knew?

HOLLOWAY: Absolutely, yes.
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AZLady
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« Reply #817 on: June 25, 2005, 05:10:29 AM »

The transcript of interview with Alana and Ed, Natalee's friends, is here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159764,00.html

I remember seeing the interview with the other friends in Mountain Brook, but can't find it right now.  Hopefully, this will help as to when she met him--maybe, a little?
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BRING NATALEE HOME
absolut
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« Reply #818 on: June 25, 2005, 05:12:17 AM »

Quote from: "chelsblu"
I don't think the video showed them together unless was mentioned in another interview after this one.....

HOLLOWAY: Well, the first thing we did, we had three citizens here. They work for an international company. They took us around. We immediately began reviewing the situation, and we actually reviewed some video footage from the Holiday Inn, the hotel casino, and just tried to pinpoint who this young man was that Natalee was last seen with and just began our own family investigation.

VAN SUSTEREN: You actually sat down and looked at this video?

HOLLOWAY: Yes, I did.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did you spot Natalee in the video?

HOLLOWAY: No, it wasn't to spot Natalee in the video, it was just to make an identification of the young man that Natalee was last seen with.

VAN SUSTEREN: But you weren't here, so how would you be in a position to even know who this young man was?

HOLLOWAY: Through some of her classmates. And this young man had spent time with these children. He had been with them for a couple of days. They knew this young man. They knew his first name. They had spent hours with him. So it wasn't a secret. It wasn't a secret who she left with.

VAN SUSTEREN: Were they sort of having sort of, like, dating each other?

HOLLOWAY: No, absolutely not.

VAN SUSTEREN: It was just part of a group?

HOLLOWAY: Part of a group.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did her friends see anything about this young man, anything distinctive about him or problems with him?

HOLLOWAY: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

VAN SUSTEREN: Alcohol, drugs?

HOLLOWAY: Absolutely not.

VAN SUSTEREN: Nice kid, as far as they knew?

HOLLOWAY: Absolutely, yes.


I agree in some interviews that is the answer and it others it is different.

It is almost like what time did they gang from Alabama get on the island. 11:30, 11, or as jug said tonight 10:30. Everytime anything is from a primary in this case it is a different story just by a little bit.
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absolut
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« Reply #819 on: June 25, 2005, 05:13:57 AM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
The transcript of interview with Alana and Ed, Natalee's friends, is here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159764,00.html

I remember seeing the interview with the other friends in Mountain Brook, but can't find it right now.  Hopefully, this will help as to when she met him--maybe, a little?


ED KISSEL, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think I saw her a little later that night. I had stayed in Carlos 'n Charlie's pretty long, and I saw her dancing with Van Der Sloot later that night.

O'REILLY: Now, did you know Van Der Sloot? Did -- how did you know who he was?

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.

O'REILLY: All right. So Natalee obviously knew him, then, was familiar with him. And when you saw him dancing with her, that didn't set off any bells. Was Natalee intoxicated, in your opinion?
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