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Author Topic: RBN #25 A Hot Sat. Night  (Read 203618 times)
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bendex
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« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2005, 05:19:52 PM »

Quote from: "coco"
Actually Getagrip - there are some links on Google to a UN report on human  rights reports on Aruba - I can't figure out if the info is completely up to date but it appears that there have been questions raised about treatment and conditions of detainees at least as of 2000.
I'm wondering if the building of the new wing of the KIA relates to those questions.



Bendex - there is a brilliant HBO documentary on the WM3 case - and a followup documentary produced a year later - the first is called Paradise Lost. The second builds a very good case for the father of one of the victims as the actual killer (including the fact that he had all his teeth removed after he was asked to give a dental imprint to attempt to match tooth marks, etc) - it's very chilling and always makes me wonder when we see these sorts of "we all *know* they're guilty!" cases.


Wow I read the internetpage very good story now someone willing to remove all his teeth to go trough an ordeal like that would be very suspicious.
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Only the facts
martin connahey
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« Reply #121 on: June 25, 2005, 05:20:16 PM »

Facing a dearth of solid info, it's interesting to note that Oranjestad is named for Dutch royal family, originally from William of Orange, whose nickname was William The Silent.

-MC
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Angiex911dsptchr
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« Reply #122 on: June 25, 2005, 05:20:33 PM »

Gotta get some of my things done here.. and eat as well.. Catch ya all in a little bit
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inspector_detector
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« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2005, 05:20:40 PM »

Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "RB"
And Bendex - it's all about drugs and sex because we don't want to believe that "good american girls" might actually go to the beach at night with a guy - she musta been drugged!

One of the things I really appreciated when I visited in the Netherlands with my teenage daughter was the much saner attitude on sexuallity and teens - as well as the much saner attitude on drinking. We spent time with colleagues of mine who had a son the same age as my daughter (16 at the time) and they were able to go out to a club, drink beers, dance, etc - but they could not get behind the wheel of a car!


I worked for a company in Barneveld, and travelled there many times. Your impression, coco, is totally on the money as far as I'm concerned, and I recall many of our "transplanted" Dutch co workers who lived here commented about the difference almost regularly in our office watercooler chats.


If everything was consentual, then why didn't Natalee just brush herself off afterward and walk back with Joran to the HI? I am assuming that he would have been gentleman enough to walk those 500 meters back to the hotel with her.


Joran reported that she said that she wanted to be alone. Which opens up a possibility for someone else to kidnap her before she reaches the Holiday Inn. Rolling Eyes


Then why lie about it consistently? Why did he lie before there was any media attention on this case at all? He's being charged with murder now, and yet he's going to lie, for what reason?


He heard that "something" bad happened to her. So the Kalpoes covered for him - said they were with him the whole time. No one wants to be the last one to see someone that has disappeared. Maybe the father helped them cook up the story?
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arubagirl
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« Reply #124 on: June 25, 2005, 05:21:05 PM »

MaggieFF yes there is. About 20meters away. It's from Aruba Bank, and it's right across from McD.

RB, I'm not saying that NH asked for anything that happened to her, I'm just saying that Joran's story that NH asked to stay behind is not true in my opinion.
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maggie fff
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« Reply #125 on: June 25, 2005, 05:21:53 PM »

Thanks arubagirl!!!
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RB
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« Reply #126 on: June 25, 2005, 05:22:28 PM »

I understand, arubagirl.  And it's possible we will never know...
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RB
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« Reply #127 on: June 25, 2005, 05:23:15 PM »

Quote from: "maggie fff"
Thanks arubagirl!!!


Well Maggie, there could be your video, hm?
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sb
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« Reply #128 on: June 25, 2005, 05:23:15 PM »

Quote from: "homeontherange"
So----- 1:30 Leave NH leaves C&C's thinking she's getting a ride to HI. She's got the mickey in the system. 1:45 till she's out and JVS unloads her where he plan's to "get some". 2:00 JVS "satisfied" enjoying the afterglow, ready to return NH to HI. Calls in the "taxi" 2:10 "taxi" arrives as JVS realizes something is wrong with NH. The three try to figure out what to do. 2:30 NH is dead and DA3 know it, decide they need advice from PVS. 2:40 arrive at PVS home. 2:45 wake daddy and explain problem. 3:00 Daddy worried and trying to come up w/ a plan. According to Weather.com, sun comes up @6:17 today, probably @6:25 5/30 but light @ 6:00 or a little before. So you've got less than 3 hours for inexperienced murderers to either A: hide a body so that nobody on a 70sq mile island with an average of 1000 permanent residents per sq/mi plus who knows how many tourists won't EVER find it? Are these guys outdoorsmen? They've got shovels and plastic and whatever else handy. They know the "Perfect spot". Nobody sees a car pulling down a back road? Hard to believe. So B: Dump the body in the water. But---bodies float, so -- disembowel the body? Use weights? Where do they come from? How much is enough? How do you get them and the body to where the disposal occurs. It could be a pool on the island -- I doubt it, something would turn up sooner or later. It couldn't be just offshore, the body, or parts of it would wash up sooner or later. Take it way offshore -- maybe but your telling me you organize the boat, personel, wieghts, move the body and get this all done in less than 3 hours. I don't think so, when your a wreck like they all would have been in this situation, NOTHING GOES RIGHT. It just doesn't work. If she's dead, the body was stored to be disposed of later or is still in storage. Otherwise she was handed off to somebody(s) else. I don't know if she's still alive but something isn't right about the "She's dead" theories either.


This post is 100% ON THE MONEY!!! There is NO WAY these clowns get their act together to accomplish all that in 3 hours or less! There simply HAS to be something else at work here. Plus, how do we explain Joran being able to go to school the next day?

Something very involved has HAD to have happened AFTER Joran was with Natalee that night. Something that has yet to be explained.

IF Natalee died there on that beach and Joran had to get a body disposed of, there would be cellphone calls all over the place, and people being woken up and called to come to the rescue. These things do not happen in a vacuum, there would be evidence.
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Natalee's family/friends still need our prayers.
DT
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« Reply #129 on: June 25, 2005, 05:23:28 PM »

Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "RB"
And Bendex - it's all about drugs and sex because we don't want to believe that "good american girls" might actually go to the beach at night with a guy - she musta been drugged!

One of the things I really appreciated when I visited in the Netherlands with my teenage daughter was the much saner attitude on sexuallity and teens - as well as the much saner attitude on drinking. We spent time with colleagues of mine who had a son the same age as my daughter (16 at the time) and they were able to go out to a club, drink beers, dance, etc - but they could not get behind the wheel of a car!


I worked for a company in Barneveld, and travelled there many times. Your impression, coco, is totally on the money as far as I'm concerned, and I recall many of our "transplanted" Dutch co workers who lived here commented about the difference almost regularly in our office watercooler chats.


If everything was consentual, then why didn't Natalee just brush herself off afterward and walk back with Joran to the HI? I am assuming that he would have been gentleman enough to walk those 500 meters back to the hotel with her.


Joran reported that she said that she wanted to be alone. Which opens up a possibility for someone else to kidnap her before she reaches the Holiday Inn. Rolling Eyes


Then why lie about it consistently? Why did he lie before there was any media attention on this case at all? He's being charged with murder now, and yet he's going to lie, for what reason?


He heard that "something" bad happened to her. So the Kalpoes covered for him - said they were with him the whole time. No one wants to be the last one to see someone that has disappeared. Maybe the father helped them cook up the story?


He initially lied about 24 hrs after the disappearence. That was well before the something bad happened quote.  Their wasn't any media attention until tuesday really, so why cook up a fake story in those 24 hrs, if they were innocent and didn't know what happened to her and didn't know she was missing until the family showed up.
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Ting
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« Reply #130 on: June 25, 2005, 05:23:52 PM »

Quote
Are you saying that they are using torture and beatings that has led them to change their stories?

The are using intense interrogation techniques


It is my impression that there is a strong preference among mainstream Americans for the term "intense interrogation."

This case has gone on for some time, and I think the US has a strong preference at this time to have the media frenzy, etc. conclude.

I have said before I think the Aruban authorities have bent over backwards to be sensitive to American culture, as well as the wishes of their large neighbor to the north, probably more than many Arubans might prefer.
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inspector_detector
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« Reply #131 on: June 25, 2005, 05:24:20 PM »

Quote from: "RazzyBerry"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "RazzyBerry"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "RazzyBerry"
One of the very first thing interrogators do is look for inconsistencies regarding statements given by possible witnesses, suspects.  Those inconsistencies are Red Flags that tell detectives they are either on the right path or not.

Why were the guards let go? Because they stuck to one story, their alibi never changed and were released.  An innocent person has nothing to change so their are no variations in their stories.


These kids on the other hand REEK.


Not true Razzy, reports I read said it was the security guard that didn't have their story straight. Apparantly one of them "forget" exactly what happened. People do forget things you know...


show me the link to these errors.


This was from some early fox news reports with the security guards lawyers. Part of the reason they were held was because their storys didnt match. Maybe you can find it on the site with all the videos?


You read you find it.


SMACK!  Evil or Very Mad             RazzyBerry -> Shocked
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RB
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« Reply #132 on: June 25, 2005, 05:24:48 PM »

Folks, haven't posted this in this thread yet, but need you to keep the quotes to a 2 depth max so we don't overload and blow up as more Monkeys start logging in.  Please, thanks, and here's your case of beer....
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arubagirl
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« Reply #133 on: June 25, 2005, 05:24:58 PM »

Okay, it's hard to explain, but the ATM is in a little cabin, and there is a camera, but it focuses on the person using the ATM, I don't think that camera would capture anything that happen across the street.

Damn, it's really hard to expalin in words.
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RazzyBerry
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« Reply #134 on: June 25, 2005, 05:25:31 PM »

Quote from: "sb"
Quote from: "homeontherange"
So----- 1:30 Leave NH leaves C&C's thinking she's getting a ride to HI. She's got the mickey in the system. 1:45 till she's out and JVS unloads her where he plan's to "get some". 2:00 JVS "satisfied" enjoying the afterglow, ready to return NH to HI. Calls in the "taxi" 2:10 "taxi" arrives as JVS realizes something is wrong with NH. The three try to figure out what to do. 2:30 NH is dead and DA3 know it, decide they need advice from PVS. 2:40 arrive at PVS home. 2:45 wake daddy and explain problem. 3:00 Daddy worried and trying to come up w/ a plan. According to Weather.com, sun comes up @6:17 today, probably @6:25 5/30 but light @ 6:00 or a little before. So you've got less than 3 hours for inexperienced murderers to either A: hide a body so that nobody on a 70sq mile island with an average of 1000 permanent residents per sq/mi plus who knows how many tourists won't EVER find it? Are these guys outdoorsmen? They've got shovels and plastic and whatever else handy. They know the "Perfect spot". Nobody sees a car pulling down a back road? Hard to believe. So B: Dump the body in the water. But---bodies float, so -- disembowel the body? Use weights? Where do they come from? How much is enough? How do you get them and the body to where the disposal occurs. It could be a pool on the island -- I doubt it, something would turn up sooner or later. It couldn't be just offshore, the body, or parts of it would wash up sooner or later. Take it way offshore -- maybe but your telling me you organize the boat, personel, wieghts, move the body and get this all done in less than 3 hours. I don't think so, when your a wreck like they all would have been in this situation, NOTHING GOES RIGHT. It just doesn't work. If she's dead, the body was stored to be disposed of later or is still in storage. Otherwise she was handed off to somebody(s) else. I don't know if she's still alive but something isn't right about the "She's dead" theories either.


This post is 100% ON THE MONEY!!! There is NO WAY these clowns get their act together to accomplish all that in 3 hours or less! There simply HAS to be something else at work here. Plus, how do we explain Joran being able to go to school the next day?

Something very involved has HAD to have happened AFTER Joran was with Natalee that night. Something that has yet to be explained.

IF Natalee died there on that beach and Joran had to get a body disposed of, there would be cellphone calls all over the place, and people being woken up and called to come to the rescue. These things do not happen in a vacuum, there would be evidence.


Youre right thats why I think they hid the body that first night and called someone else in to get rid of the body the next day. This possibly iswhere more arrests are coming from.
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Professor
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« Reply #135 on: June 25, 2005, 05:25:52 PM »

Quote from: "RB"
If everything was consentual, then why didn't Natalee just brush herself off afterward and walk back with Joran to the HI? I am assuming that he would have been gentleman enough to walk those 500 meters back to the hotel with her.

That's the 64K question, isn't it?

 I do think that there's relevance in cultural difference simply because it can influence how we communicate/relate/act with each other. IMO for example,  this is true in a much more subtle form between Yankees and Southerners here in the States - take someone from PA and transplant them in Alabama or vice versa (and no, I'm not picking on either - I have family in both) and you should hear what's said. It's just different, that's all.


Is there ANY culture in which sex is that INSIGNIFICANT that you wouldn't walk a woman 500 meters back to her hotel? If there is, I don't want to live there.
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RazzyBerry
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« Reply #136 on: June 25, 2005, 05:26:19 PM »

inspector:

someone backed up your story for you.
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coco
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« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2005, 05:27:08 PM »

ArubaGirl - what's the general attitude about being on the beach at night - I'm thinking that a lot of folks who go to Negril in Jamaica talk often about walking the beach at night from club to club and being completely safe - even women alone. Note that I would not do that nor suggest that my daughter do that but  it's said a lot - would Natalee have heard "the beach gets dangerous traffic at night or is not safe at night" or would she have heard "no problem, no worries, Aruba is safe and you can even walk around at night"?


One thought I had was that if Natalee drank a bit too much and felt sick, she might easily tell Joran to leave her alone since she wouldn't want a cute and seemingly "worldly" guy see her throw up ... I can easily see my dtr doing that for example - sometimes looking good outweighs thoughts about sensible behavior? (just speculating)
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RB
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« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2005, 05:27:16 PM »

Is there ANY culture in which sex is that INSIGNIFICANT that you wouldn't walk a woman 500 meters back to her hotel? If there is, I don't want to live there

Yes Professor,  there is.  And you don't live there.
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DT
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« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2005, 05:27:25 PM »

I might be wrong, but I remember a quote from joran's mother on cnn yesterday where she said that while at the becah they walked for awhile, and then he left? Does anyone remember that?
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