RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening

[GuyWdog]

Scott can you factually prove these words of yours? I would be interested to see the documentation of these Anger management classes? it is stuff like this that has demonized Americans around the world. I base my theories on what has been told us by the authorities, and what has been PROVEN to be TRUTHS. Not what I HEARD`someone's friends friends friends friend said to another peron on another board somewhere on the internet. lets see the proof, please?

GuyWdog

[friend of monkeys]

I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place

Bendex, I have to disagree. Amy did not disappear in Aruba. She disappeared almost a day later....at sea.

kerin--hey girl!
i 'm going to bed soon
can i get the simple mind theory?

[absolut]

absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.

good one.
next what if   absolut

No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?

no.

Is location enough to hold Joran, it may be the only extra piece of evidence we get.

[Scott]

Why is everyone appearing on FOX? What's wrong with CNN? Come on, won't someone think of us poor Arubans?

Has your local cable company given any reason as to why they still haven't added Fox News to their channel base?

[Whodunit?]

Arubagirl,

First of all, thanks so much for your incredibly beautiful pics and all of your time & hard work on this.

I found this posted at misfitting.com:

Does anyone know Lorenzo Van Rijn 23, big house at Jaraweg? Used to live on main Savaneta road.

HTH

[bendex]

I think abduction story goes to far.  I don't think that Holloway has been abducted because these three nitwits cannot pull of something like that, it demands lots of planning, and routine that is all missing.
Furthermore there has no been recent histories of young woman disapearing in Aruba. Kidnap a young american girl as a sexslave while venezuela columbia is full of beautifull woman, ( my job is traveling around South America whole year trough ) does not make lots of sense to me .

I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.

Trust me, nobody's opinion is going to convict Joran or anyone else.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog

[arubagirl]

Joran was seeing a psychologists and was having sessions also with at least one of his parents.

Believe me, or you won't, but I'm not going to post where I got the information. Don't want to get anybody in trouble.

[absolut]

I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place

Bendex, I have to disagree. Amy did not disappear in Aruba. She disappeared almost a day later....at sea.

kerin--hey girl!
i 'm going to bed soon
can i get the simple mind theory?

Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.

[coco]

G'nite gang ...

I have to log off so I can finish the report due tomorrow which I have now avoided all day while reading here ...

talk about addiction!

[inspector_detector]

I find in the Amy Bradly case things in common with the holloway case

1. They Both disapeared in Aruba
2. They Both disappeared in the early hours.
3. They dispeared when invite by someone to join to some place

I think Amy Bradly actually disappeared from Curacao. But she did mention that some foreign guys wanted to take her to Carlos N Charlies on Aruba...

I thought in the piece I saw about this disappearance, the parents said Amy went to a top deck and was never seen again? If that is true, she could have fallen overboard. JMHO

There was a US Navy officer that met he at a brothel in S America. He said she was asking for help the 2 guys took her "upstairs" . This officer reportedly took a polygraph and passed it.

[~TAZ_MAN~]

i heard somewhere that there is no correlation betwen sociopathic behaviour and murder.  i guess there are degrees of sociopathic behaviours just like any other psyhcolocial condition.  as to joran's other psychiatric issues, they were apparent enough that his parents sought help for him and apparently he was in therapy.  most people would not go that far with a problem kid so they were diligent in that respect.  we don't know what his problem was other than "anger management" and we don't know how he expressed his anger.  i wonder if the prfessional that talked about Joran was his psychiatrist.   if it was, sounds like an ethical lapse to me.   in any case, if they actually charge and try Joran, we eill find out about any condition that might have led him to harm Natalee. It could  also form the basis of an insanity defence.

the line that separates a narcissist from the sociopath is that the sociopath will have some sort of involvement with criminal activity that usually escalates.

[friend of monkeys]

absolut, I'm guessing depends on the results of autopsy.

good one.
next what if   absolut

No evidence of foulplay in the autopsy, sorry I should have clarifed. Is location enough?

no.

Is location enough to hold Joran, it may be the only extra piece of evidence we get.

your location is only lighthouse or marriot or others??
whatever else found there would be important...unpredictable imo

[DT]

I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog

Everyone is held to the same standard.  But I would add that the conduct of the MB kids is irrelevant in this case more than likely (unless of course you think they caused her death which is absurd).  Regardless they are all held to the same standard, and unfortunately Joran is sadly lacking.  We have no information of any wrong doing by anyone from MB.  Im not saying there wasn't any their probably was, but we dont know of any.  As for Joran lets see he:

Lied through his teeth to the family of a victim
Incriminated two innocent men
and Lied two more times.  

and all of that is fact.  People are bashing Joran and rightly so.  He is either responsible for the disappearence of Natalee or he is responsbile for hindering the investigation in the extreme due to his dishonesty.  Does that make him a murderer or rapist? No.  But all signs point to him having something to do with the disappearence and he has no one to blame for taht but himself.

[pinemeadows]

I thought in the piece I saw about this disappearance, the parents said Amy went to a top deck and was never seen again? If that is true, she could have fallen overboard. JMHO

I believe some time ago, an individual (in the military forces - somebody correct me if I'm wrong) was in a brothel in SA, and a gal fitting her description said her real name was Amy.....this person for whatever reason (married maybe?) did not disclose this until almost a year after the incident.  When investigators or family went there, the brothel was closed, and they had moved on.

Sad sad story.

[GreatOwl]

Scott can you factually prove these words of yours? I would be interested to see the documentation of these Anger management classes?

GuyWdog

I believe this issue was confirmed in an interview between Greta and AVDS

[LostinTime]

Aruba Girl
Thanks for the pictures you're very lucky to live in such a beautiful place.
Maybe someone can put them in the Link/Reference area.

[K in TX]

i heard somewhere that there is no correlation betwen sociopathic behaviour and murder.  i guess there are degrees of sociopathic behaviours just like any other psyhcolocial condition.  as to joran's other psychiatric issues, they were apparent enough that his parents sought help for him and apparently he was in therapy.  most people would not go that far with a problem kid so they were diligent in that respect.  we don't know what his problem was other than "anger management" and we don't know how he expressed his anger.  i wonder if the prfessional that talked about Joran was his psychiatrist.   if it was, sounds like an ethical lapse to me.   in any case, if they actually charge and try Joran, we eill find out about any condition that might have led him to harm Natalee. It could  also form the basis of an insanity defence.

While there may not be any correlation between a sociopath and a murderer, there are certain tendencies one must consider.  A sociopath shows no remorse for wrong-doings, and, often they convince themselves that they have done nothing wrong to begin with.  This could WELL be one of the reasons JVS is holding up so well under interrogation (if in fact he is a sociopath).  He might believe that he's done nothing wrong, and that he's above the law.  Often, sociopaths come from middle-class and well-to-do families, and are used to getting away with everything, hence their nonchalant attitudes when something DOES go wrong (Peterson, preppy murderer, etc.).

Just a thought!

[RB]

See my comments inline with yours
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded.

You disrespect 99% of the board and expect to have an interactive discussion about your views?  Please.

You are making a generalization which is unfounded for a majority of the posters. No one needs to provide you basis for their theory (which you won't agree with regardless of how it's presented) when they are speculating and presenting their opinions, questions and points of view. You're entitled to believe what you want, but other posters are entitled as well.  Discuss it in a reasonable fashion without insult or inferring they are "wrong".  There's not enough detail to be "wrong here.

If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.

There's no doubt there are some less-than-favorable comments the suspects in question, but they ARE suspects.  If they are innocent, their names will be forgotten by a majority of folks over time. Those in opposition to your view moderate their tone, and you definitely need to moderate yours.

While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.

Dutch law is much more restrictive about evidence than we are here. It's apparent from this post, as I said before you can be perceived as not welcoming thoughts or devate contrary to your own. I suggest you think about that.

 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies.

They are suspects; naturally they will be held to a different standard and pointing that out over and over and over without contributing to existing discussions is pointless and inflammatory. And the MB students are teenagers acting like teens. I'm sure you did the same growing up  - we all did.

I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

It's posts like these which cause undue unnecessary amounts of stress and tension on this board.  Communicate with respect and not these passive aggressive posts and we'll all be fine.

[absolut]

Joran was seeing a psychologists and was having sessions also with at least one of his parents.

Believe me, or you won't, but I'm not going to post where I got the information. Don't want to get anybody in trouble.

I will vouch for this. Seperate source.

[Dallas Also]

Thanks, everyone, for your feedback on my "underground party" theory.

I copy-pasted everyone's feedback into a Word document so that I can digest it and see if I can plug the holes in my theory.

The basic holes are:

1. I need a location for this party!  As Arubagirl said, the island is small and word gets around.  However, Lorenzo is known to have underground parties in his more isolated home.  He is the Lorenzo that the police questioned about 2 weeks ago.
2. I need a true and valid reason why Joran would lie.  If others grabbed the girl away from him, he would have just been hollaring and frantic to the police.  I need a reason why, instead, he lied plus got others to back his false story.

Is there another hole, or did I capture the two basic problems?