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Author Topic: RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening  (Read 251822 times)
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luna
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« Reply #700 on: June 26, 2005, 11:16:05 PM »

Quote from: "Scott"
I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.


Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?
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mordred
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« Reply #701 on: June 26, 2005, 11:18:19 PM »

Quote from: "Anna"
Here is the post yet again for those who do not understand how NH came to be in the car with Joren...........
....... Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .
 ...................
So for those in love with the theory of a pretty girl being just so hot to trot for Joren, while you might really enjoy this scenario it is not likely what happened at all.  .


Anna,
With all due respect, Natalle by most accounts was hanging out with Joran since 9:30 that night. At least thats what was reported by the 'Birmingham News' today. So it is probable that she did establish enough of a rapport to feel she could trust him & accept a ride with him.
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Professor
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« Reply #702 on: June 26, 2005, 11:18:34 PM »

Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  Confused )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


well I wouldn't say a lot, and there are several types of psyche help: there is psychiatrists ( prescribe meds);psychologists ( counseling ); then there are therapists or counselors who may not have a medical degree.
It really is not a big deal. I think the reason it is an issue in this case, is because joran apparently has an anger problem he needs counseling for, combined with being suspected of a possible violent crime. That is the connection I see anyway.


Actually, the fact that Joran is seeing a psychiatrist is the EXCEPTION, and not the RULE for sociopaths. Most sociopaths never end up in therapy because they are skilled manipulators (Mommy, mommy, if you had not gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.) and are good at getting what they want. Usually, it's a co-worker, spouse, or family member who ends up in therapy. Narcissists and sociopaths don't go crazy, they drive OTHER people crazy.

And, to the best of my knowledge, the psychiatrist wasn't the first attempt at family intervention. When Joran was beating up on his little brother (which his mother -- in true narcissistc fashion -- claimed was perfectly normal teenage behavior), he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist.
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KackyLacky
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« Reply #703 on: June 26, 2005, 11:19:42 PM »

Quote from: "GreatOwl"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Professor"

 



And that's a fact, Jack.




I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


maybe he put the monkey in the cage next door!!!!!!

sorry the devil made me say that.... sorry.

 Embarassed


 Laughing  Laughing
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TTownMike
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« Reply #704 on: June 26, 2005, 11:20:08 PM »

Quote from: "Curiosity"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "GuyWdog"
I am SURE that 99% of the people on this board are acting/feeling; out of a total emotional basis. I would feel much better of most of you could produce some basis to back up your theories. To me subjecting someone to be convicted of raping, drugging, sociopath, etc. should at least be backed up by some sort of reasoning. Just saying he lied once, just doen'st cut it (in my book). But that's just me I try hard to be open minded. If any of you are ever convicted in a public forum when you are in-fact innocent then you might be  bit more tollerant to base your theories on reasoning. Emotions are what is RUINING the world at the moment. We have radical terrorists killing innocents all in the name of what? To me a socialized society should condem radicalism and the thoughts that make a gang/mob rule mentality prevade any culture.
 While I look forward to thoughts and debate, I cringe on what I see here as an immediate conviction but because of a POSSIBLE mistake in judgement.
 With that said I see lots of HYPOCRACY, in holding Joran to a different standard than the Mountain Brook kids. Maybe some personal responsiblity should have been discussed before this trip took place. Even Jug Twity proclaimed his elder son took the trip 3 years before and told of the rowdy/dangeruous behavior at carlos and Charlies. I guess it is talk like mine here that has run people off?

GuyWdog
<<

Most of us have stated our sources/reasons/logic until we just can't keep doing it over and over several times a day.  Maybe a tiptoe through the archives would answer most of your questions for while there is a great deal of emotion, I don't think that is really what is behind the vast majority of theories.  

No, you have that backwards for this blog has held the MB kids to a much higher standard than Joren who has been allowed to do pretty much anything for years.  The MB kids are trashed because they do not talk to the MSM and tell things that never happened.  If they all say the same they have been given a script and if they say something different, gotcha!  Joren changes his story three times, and well, bless his heart!  He kept lying during the crucial first hours when there might have been a chance of finding her alive, fingered two innocent guards and got them arrested and still did not come clean.  He was perfectly willing to have them take the blame for this if he could pull that off.

You see nothing wrong with those two secrutiy guards being identified by Joren and Crue and arrested on their word?  

His mother says he is in anger management therapy for kicking his little brothers and he threw a kid through a plate glass window, etc. starts two fights with the MB kids and on and on.

Why are you such a fan of Joren and other than the emotion which you blame on others, what is your source or reasoning?  His behavior seems like the good boy his mother says he is who doesn't drink or do drugs, etc. despite all those photos on the web of him doing so and eyewitnesses to the contrary.  Why do his friends tease him about roofies on some of the sites?  And he is not the one missing, one of the MB kids is and he was the last seen with her and pounds his chest when asked what might have happened to her/  There are lots of reasons why some of us do not think he is just a good sweetheart but not much just based on pure emotion.  So why do you think none of this matters, not even sending two innocent men to prison to try to g et them to take his punishment?


Thank you Anna.....well said. And I especially notice the piece about the higher standard of the MB kids.....isn't that the truth. They gave so much in the early days here, only to be run off. It breaks my heart to see what happened to them here. I enjoyed reading what they had to say, since they weren't just speculating ideas.....they lived part of the real story.
V ery good Anna!  Bad Dog!! Evil or Very Mad
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K in TX
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« Reply #705 on: June 26, 2005, 11:21:02 PM »

Quote from: "Professor"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  Confused )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


well I wouldn't say a lot, and there are several types of psyche help: there is psychiatrists ( prescribe meds);psychologists ( counseling ); then there are therapists or counselors who may not have a medical degree.
It really is not a big deal. I think the reason it is an issue in this case, is because joran apparently has an anger problem he needs counseling for, combined with being suspected of a possible violent crime. That is the connection I see anyway.


Actually, the fact that Joran is seeing a psychiatrist is the EXCEPTION, and not the RULE for sociopaths. Most sociopaths never end up in therapy because they are skilled manipulators (Mommy, mommy, if you had not gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.) and are good at getting what they want. Usually, it's a co-worker, spouse, or family member who ends up in therapy. Narcissists and sociopaths don't go crazy, they drive OTHER people crazy.

And, to the best of my knowledge, the psychiatrist wasn't the first attempt at family intervention. When Joran was beating up on his little brother (which his mother -- in true narcissistc fashion -- claimed was perfectly normal teenage behavior), he was sent to YOGA AND MEDITATION classes. Yes. THAT is the clincher, and NOT the fact that he is now seeing a psychiatrist.


Gag.  His mother, albeit sweet and clueless in demeanor, is...CLUELESS.  My mother is a teacher, and I have lots of friends that are teachers, and they all SWEAR that their worst kids are the ones whose parents make EXCUSES for them constantly.  Gag.
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GreatOwl
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« Reply #706 on: June 26, 2005, 11:21:08 PM »

Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "Anna"
Here is the post yet again for those who do not understand how NH came to be in the car with Joren...........
....... Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone . . .
 ...................
So for those in love with the theory of a pretty girl being just so hot to trot for Joren, while you might really enjoy this scenario it is not likely what happened at all.  .


Anna,
With all due respect, Natalle by most accounts was hanging out with Joran since 9:30 that night. At least thats what was reported by the 'Birmingham News' today. So it is probable that she did establish enough of a rapport to feel she could trust him & accept a ride with him.


That does not compute.  Wasn't it established that Joran snuck out and also that the owner of C & C's said the MB group arrived there at 11:30?
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"May you have the hindsight to know where you've been,
 the foresight to know where you're going and
 the insight to know when you've gone too far."
KackyLacky
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« Reply #707 on: June 26, 2005, 11:21:46 PM »

Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "igsigs"
Maybe i missed it...but where is the apology that the 3 amigos owe natalee, natalee's family and all of Aruba for that matter? If they are innocent the main reason they are still in jail is because of their own lies. The monumental agony that these 3 have laid at the feet of the Holloway family is without excuse. every lie they tell jerks the Holloways back and forth. running to the lighthouse, draining ponds by the hotel, searching the brothels...all ending in pain and fear of not knowing. what is the next story that will taunt Nat's family and end in heatbreak? i know joren feels sorry for his mom. i know the Kalpoes apologized to the security guards. when will these 3 step up and apologize to Nat and her family for the lies?


Look at it from their point of view. The way they see it Natalee has gotten them all in trouble. They seem to think that Natalee has caused all of this on purpose and just ran away or something. I'm not sure they comprehended at the time that Natalee could really have been kidnapped or murdered. Just my theory.


and when "that girl" comes back he (joran) is going to "kick her butt in front of her mother" per Anita Twisted Evil
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iquitos
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« Reply #708 on: June 26, 2005, 11:23:02 PM »

Quote from: "luna"
Anna , back on page 31 you stated this:

"His mother says he is in anger management therapy for kicking his little brothers and he threw a kid through a plate glass window, etc. starts two fights with the MB kids and on and on."

1) Where did his mother say he was in anger management....I believe that is a rumor floating around from day one.  Anita never said that that I can remember.

2)  What is your source for the statement that he threw a kid through a plate glass window?  Again, I've heard that rumor....  a guy named Tsunder over on Riehlworldview.com said it never happened.

3) Bryan Reynolds said that there was "a pushing match" at CnCs with Joran on the second night they were there.  We don't know who started it or why.  I could make a snide remark about the twins being related to Jug....and insinuate they caused it, but I simply don't know who started it.

Where is the source for the second fight please.

I think it's these kind of, probably well-meaning but probably incorrect, statements that get rumors started.

If you have sources or quotes, please let me know.

thanks...
 

I had the same reaction to the dissertation to which you refer.  It mixes fact and rumor (therapy/plate glass window) and cites no sources to create a false picture.  i.e. it is not objective.  maybe the real picture is bad enough without embellishment.  I beleive there are press sources for both scuffles, one at the casino and one at c&c but the jury is out on who caused them and it strikes me as unlikely one guy would take on a group.  bullies are a dime a dozen and often it takes one to know one.  
if joran killed natalee may he burn in hell.  we have to make the legal case first though in this life based on evidence.  that the way we as a society have chosen to do it.
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KackyLacky
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« Reply #709 on: June 26, 2005, 11:23:03 PM »

Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  Confused )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... Laughing


just ask Tom Cruise Cool


We should all take vitamins to cure our problems. Wink



Here I have some extra One-A-Days, want one? I think I will take one as I am feeling a little stressed tonight.  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
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arubagirl
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« Reply #710 on: June 26, 2005, 11:23:22 PM »

Guys, I'm going to sleep.

See y'all tomorrow.
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Dallas Also
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« Reply #711 on: June 26, 2005, 11:23:41 PM »

Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


TAZ_MAN, that is indeed a very good question.  But nobody that has been posting here is someone that knows Joran.   I noticed one poster over on Dan's site that was in school with him, but really only knew him in the classroom.  

He posts under the name "Tsunder".  Here is a post that he did last night:

k.. just finished taking a shower.. I'm 20 sorry not a teenage.. and I dont hang around with Joran "out of school".. he is just a classmate I hang around with "in school", and you can also say a good friend.. but I dont hang around with him out of school, he has his tennis friends and I have my friends.. so get ur info's right guys..

Posted by: Tsunder | June 26, 2005 12:08 AM
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K in TX
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« Reply #712 on: June 26, 2005, 11:24:06 PM »

Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "K in TX"
Quote from: "KackyLacky"
Quote from: "inspector_detector"
Quote from: "HannieC"
I`m sorry to say this but...............Are there not a lot of people in the US having a Psychatrist ( sorry for my spelling  Confused )? I thought that was more common in the US then in what country at all?!


Yeah, we're pretty much all nuts... Laughing


just ask Tom Cruise Cool


We should all take vitamins to cure our problems. Wink



Here I have some extra One-A-Days, want one? I think I will take one as I am feeling a little stressed tonight.  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing


YES!  Where were the One-A-Days when I had post-partum depression?  Dang!  If only I had known Tom Cruise back then.
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mordred
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« Reply #713 on: June 26, 2005, 11:24:16 PM »

Quote from: "GreatOwl"
Quote from: "mordred"
Quote from: "Anna"

That does not compute.  Wasn't it established that Joran snuck out and also that the owner of C & C's said the MB group arrived there at 11:30?


I know!!!! I can't figure it out!!?? Maybe the sleuths like 'proffesor' can work on this.
This statement was attributed to Frances Byrd (one of Nat's roomates??) & is available on Birmingham News site http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news
/1119777463177140.xml&coll=2
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KackyLacky
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« Reply #714 on: June 26, 2005, 11:24:57 PM »

Quote from: "pinemeadows"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
I LIKE this theory.  Arubagirl, could this occur?  Were there yachts in town for the Soul Festival?


Now you might be on to something...but there has to be something sinister or powerful enough to warrant D & S just sitting in prison for Joran.

The other scenario could be that the 3 amigos just turned her over to someone on the yacht.

This would explain the sudden loss of memory they all have - didn't know where they were, where they'd been, or where they had dropped of N & J.



Could they have gotten a hotel room somewhere? Perhaps not one on the coast, a less expensive one, kind off the beaten path?
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pinemeadows
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« Reply #715 on: June 26, 2005, 11:25:26 PM »

Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


Well, we don't know about animals, but we know about children....per his mother.
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medleyrelay
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« Reply #716 on: June 26, 2005, 11:25:55 PM »

Does everyone posting here tonite realize Paul VDS has been released - and we also know that the party boat dj has been - so it seems that some of the big theories that so many were proclaiming here about dad's involvement big time and Steve and the boat or the date rape drug - are totally not panning out to be true??!!
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HannieC
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« Reply #717 on: June 26, 2005, 11:26:14 PM »

Dear monkey friends,,


I don`t to scratch your back or something, but .......What if there is something else going on? You can`t explain why paul is out! What if Joran realy told the truth? But he only makes a mistake ( A big one i agree by the way!) But hey don`t forget it`s a young guy of 17 years old! I know i`m not making myself populair with this , but that`s not wy we are here.
I told y`all of antoher case here in Holland were 2 adult guys confessed a murder that they don`t committed, and spend over 6 years in jail why is a 17 year old don`t confes then?? I`m sorry but that`s not makes sence.

Just a opinion... Very Happy
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Professor
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« Reply #718 on: June 26, 2005, 11:26:23 PM »

Quote from: "Dallas Also"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
I will say again, if Joran has ever had a history of hurting animals would be interesting to me.


TAZ_MAN, that is indeed a very good question.  But nobody that has been posting here is someone that knows Joran.   I noticed one poster over on Dan's site that was in school with him, but really only knew him in the classroom.  

He posts under the name "Tsunder".  Here is a post that he did last night:

k.. just finished taking a shower.. I'm 20 sorry not a teenage.. and I dont hang around with Joran "out of school".. he is just a classmate I hang around with "in school", and you can also say a good friend.. but I dont hang around with him out of school, he has his tennis friends and I have my friends.. so get ur info's right guys..

Posted by: Tsunder | June 26, 2005 12:08 AM


Virtually ALL violent sociopaths have SOME history of animal abuse. The Humane Society of the United States released the following statement about serial killers: "Not all animal abusers end up as serial killers, but virtuall ALL serial killers have SOME history of animal abuse."
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Scott
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« Reply #719 on: June 26, 2005, 11:27:11 PM »

Quote from: "luna"
Quote from: "Scott"
I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.


Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?


http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000796.html

Joran dated an eastern Asian girl who could not have been any older than 13, a 7th grader, during the 2004/2005 school year, and their relationship was apparently on the down-low, being inappropriate, apparently, in Aruba, the Netherlands, or pretty much anywhere else in the civilized western world. Her mother discovered the relationship early in March and forced them to break up.

Article 245 of the Penal Code
A person who, out of wedlock, with a person who has reached the age of twelve (12) but not yet sixteen (16), performs indecent acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than eight years or a fine of the fifth category.
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