RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening

[la_cavalière]

Lots of 360-degree virtual reality tours of places on Aruba:

http://aruba.com/pages/vrtour.htm

[wantsanswers]

he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.

That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?

 

some cable network interviewed one (in a casino) who was there with joran that night whose voice had not changed and would need a stool to reach the tables.   they need them local kids as a draw to attract the senoir trippers to get in there and compete against and fight with the locals challenging them on their own turf.  i bet it is a real loose operation   besides joran was 17 and 9 months something was he not?  they probably treat anybody coming in there to throw their money down a rathole deferentially and joran doesn't have to do anything to get a little extra deference becasue everybody wants to stay on the good side of a judge.  the night in question he was even under the adult supervision of his father.  

the mb kids at 18 are 3 years short of legal age in the us and i do not understand how what is not ok in the us suddenly becomes ok in aruba because it is "legal".   "legal" don't make it right.  our legal drinking age is obviously too high and i don't understand how we got there except that we are hypocrites because they drink anyway and then they are criminals unless they can afford a trip to aruba, cancun, juarez, nogales or Tijuana.

Does it meqn they deserve to be murdered?

[KoG]

It's a shame we lost the MB poster because of the some of the biased moderating that occurs in here. Any / all defenders of natalee have been slowly silenced by the cries of "troll, troll".

Defend the twitty family's calls for prayers for their daughter hear "troll, troll". The deliberately blind, deaf, and ignorant monkies swing to the high branches when the trolls cry "there's a troll amongst us!". It all sadly reminds me of the McCarthy days.

You sir are a communist...I mean troll...I mean communist.

Please don't feed the hate..to trolls by whatever name. Hopefully the lurkers are distinguishing the differnce between actual opinions and statements of preference/perspective ("my favorite color is blue...Aruba is paradise...Aruba is hell on earth...the butler sweats too much "). Opinions will be shaped by facts & logic, the prefences/perspectives are limited only by the number of posters on this forum.

If gained perspective is so important to the collective mission of the posters here, then you've done yourselves disservice by chasing away the MB 2.

[Another K in Texas]

So people run of the folks who might actually know something so they can play amateur detective like they do on court tv?


I never watch it and never plan to.  I teach-- I care about kids.  I care about current events since I teach ap language.  I don't see how some people wanting to be pretend police detectives is justification for insulting a young lady who has been a key part of this forum and who was even gracious enough to give the guys an interview for the front page.

Folks, this is a message board about polics and current events.  If you want a court board where you can cross examine and grill everyone like you are a da, then one of us has the wrong forum.

Look at sign up numbers.  I was here in the recent beginning.  As more people have found the forums they seem to be forcing a shift in the focus.

I don't think it is a shift for the good.

Perhaps that is why our good aruban friends also spend less and less time here.

[Anna]

It makes me so sad Dash, of all people, ............
....Again, those who attacked the kids and their actions while Dash and others were posting here this afternoon, should be ashamed.

Nancy_Drew:
 I am suprised that you who seems to be very concerned about justice would interprete people's opinions that way. I have been on this forum for quite a while & I have not seen anyone attacking the MB kids in general on Natalee in particular! If she did drink, like Joran, went willingly with him, made-out, etc; there is NOTHING in those actions that constitute bad character for an 18 yr old. If she didn't, she would be weird!!!

Without being facetious, I have had opportunity to observe in the last few years that young people from the American South & those from a village in Nunavut generally act the same given similar circumstances.

Dash is off-course very sensitive about this sisnce its so close to home & her reaction is understandable.

Maybe you haven't been reading these forums as much as everyone else, but I've seen people here stating as fact that Natalee was involved in group sex with all three, with no evidence.  This is the sort of absolute bullshit I can't stand.  It attacks the victim and has no evidence for it whatsoever.

>>

Not only Natalee but the MB kids themselves have been accused of some sinister cover up and also accused of reading from a script, refusing to give interviews to MSM (their choice, is it not?) of smirking and saying things they did not say.  

I am surprised anyone would defend all that.  No, there is nothing in that to charcterize bad behavior--it just didn't happen.  That is what upsets her friends.  Had it happened, I doubt there would be any denial but since it did NOT, it can be pretty annoying to have people continue to insist that it did when Dash and others know it just did not happen.  No prob if it did but since it didn't, it upsets them to have people insist something happened that did not.  

I find that completely reasonable myself.  What part do you have a problem with?  Are you suggesting they should agree that some things happened that did not just to appease those who want them to have done so?

[RichinTx]

2) Statements to BT like "what do you want with your daughter? She is no use to you now"
Never heard the last part of that statement - is it true?

It's a result of the 'story passed around the circle' syndrome.  BT said that Joran said.."What do you want me to do?  what do you want me to do?"

[Ting]

I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.

[KackyLacky]

So we do have a witness saying Natalee was dancing with Joran. TY.

ED KISSEL, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think I saw her a little later that night. I had stayed in Carlos 'n Charlie's pretty long, and I saw her dancing with Van Der Sloot later that night.

O'REILLY: Now, did you know Van Der Sloot? Did -- how did you know who he was?

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.

we have more than that we have Ed saying: (OMG! Hell just started freezing over because I am quoting O'Reilly)
O'REILLY: But nothing set off any alarm bells for you, Ed? You didn't -- you weren't concerned or anything like that?

KISSEL: No. I wasn't personally concerned about anything. From what I've heard, I heard people talk about him and he sounded like a nice guy. So I didn't think any big deal
**********

so it seems from witnesses Natalee was at the very least polite, and seems to have like joran. Could she have fallen for a player like many of us do or did when we were 18 ?

[HannieC]

Thanks bendex for your translation ,,,,pfff i`m behind with reading again

[iquitos]

In the promotional materials from one of the companies that package these graduation and spring break trips they specifically say that Aruba's drinking age is 18 but they rarely card.

I'll see if I can dig it up again ...

coco:  hurry before the erase it!

[Scott]

Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.

Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!

[nikkibnurse]

.......  And my overall point is that some of you don't know that she was interested in Joran.  .....SOMETHING is terribly wrong here, and I am suspicious of Joran.  I am not saying I think he murdered her.  I am thinking more along the lines of an accident or a sexual assault.  But I haven't decided.  IMO, he is the most likely suspect.

The reason that many people think she liked Joran, even a little bit is because she allegedly danced & hang out with him by her schoolmates' accounts. I dont see how liking him or not makes any difference though - In fact most sexual assaults are perpetrated by people one knows, has a relationship with, etc: An 18 year old girl  is more likely to be assaulted on a date (with someone she LIKES) rather than by a stranger.

As A victim of date rape, i totally agree...

[Catriana]

THE ONLY FACT WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN IS THAT NATALEE IS MISSING.  

 

[spab]

It's a shame we lost the MB poster because of the some of the biased moderating that occurs in here. Any / all defenders of natalee have been slowly silenced by the cries of "troll, troll".

Defend the twitty family's calls for prayers for their daughter hear "troll, troll". The deliberately blind, deaf, and ignorant monkies swing to the high branches when the trolls cry "there's a troll amongst us!". It all sadly reminds me of the McCarthy days.

You sir are a communist...I mean troll...I mean communist.

Please don't feed the hate..to trolls by whatever name. Hopefully the lurkers are distinguishing the differnce between actual opinions and statements of preference/perspective ("my favorite color is blue...Aruba is paradise...Aruba is hell on earth...the butler sweats too much "). Opinions will be shaped by facts & logic, the prefences/perspectives are limited only by the number of posters on this forum.

If gained perspective is so important to the collective mission of the posters here, then you've done yourselves disservice by chasing away the MB 2.

...  

[writenow]

Right, what I am saying is that they are defending their friend, but in actualitly, who is here to defend the 3 boys in custody?  I certainly am not saying these 3 are innocent, but at same time, I also want to remain objective.  I am in my 40's and still know some of the crazy things I did when not with my folk's around at the age of 17/18, and if they knew half of it, they would be rolling in their graves to this day

Did you ever kidnap someone and then lie to cover it up?

[Zazzu]

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.

With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.

[inthepacific]

I think it was very easy for many posters here to forget Dash was a kid, a teenager. She is articulate, smart and loyal (wonderful qualities). However, most of us on this board are adults who have been around the block a time or 2 and are old hats a message boards or blogs. We have grown thick skin, and can give as good as we get. That should never have been expected of Dash or MBHgirl ( sorry I know I have your name wrong). Not one of us would ever let another adult speak to our teenage child in a hateful manner. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

Right, but at same time please read my opinion with open mind: people are hard on this joran for his attitude towards the hollaways that nite they visited him....he has the same passion that dash does "young and bold", we just don't know the facts in this case enough to know what has really transpired. I have gone back and forth on this kids guilt/innocence 4 times, and until I guess I heard all of the evidence that the prosecution has down there, I will never really know what side to sway to in his guilt.

But given the fact that I am used to our judicial system here in the usa, I have to be 100 percent convinced that he is guilty to believe that he did it.

My heart goes out to her family and I clearly want them to know that I feel so bad for her, they want answers as do we all, but at same time, until this kid confesses or evidence has been presented to prove he did it, I can not stick my neck out and say "HE KILLED HER"

Same here! I can't convict this guy yet until the LE gives more proof beyond one lie(that is all they have actually given us)

[Curiosity]

I have been gone for a couple of hours and all hell has broken out. I've only read the last seven pages...not the rest of the section I was posting on when I had to leave.....too many pages to catch up now.

Could someone please give me a quick summary of why Dash left and there are so many posts in defense of the VDS's?? Also any other news that has transpired in the last few hours would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Anna]

he was accustomed to being treated in a preferential manner, being above the law so to speak.  Joren could do pretty much anything he pleased on the island.

That poses an interesting question. Is Joran widely believed to be the only 17 year old on the island who frequents casinos and drinks alcoholic beverages?

No but I'll bet he is the only one who is 6' 3" or more.

<<

I have no way of knowing if he was the only one or not but I did hear several bartenders and casino managers saying they did not serve drinks to those under age nor allow them in the casinos.  

So they were all lying and all 17 year olds are out at all hours on school nights?  They are much tougher than my kids if they can booze and gamble the night away and attend school regularly.

[wantsanswers]

I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.

I would let the victims decide the fate of the criminal.