RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening

[blfit]

Actually she did give us a lot of valuable info since she was on the trip.  Maybe you should try reading her posts, we learned a lot of what went on and what happened, a lot more than just the she was a good girl stuff we are so used to hearing.  Again it is not that people are questioning her character it is that they are doing so with the evidence set against them, and also that they are questioning parts of her behavior that are totally irrelevant to the case.[/quote]

Amen to that.  She did give us a lot of information and she did it willingly to support trying to figure out what happened.  Let's get real people...all you have to do is respect her and each other.

[DT]

so the ugly guys who like to be rude have taken over and then gloat about running dash off.

Folks you are not aquitting yourself well.  

Surely I know nothing about that happened there--and most of you don't either.

You besmear the victim and her friends and defend the guys who for sure are lying at best.

Guess you are proud.

Sadly this case will be solved or get old and you will find some other little mystery to go after.  

Dash will live with this forever.

And some of us had hoped to be on this forum for discussion of current events forever.   Right now it is not a friendly place unless you are of the attack the victim school of thought.


I have said repeatedly that Joran and Natalee would have had much in common and I could understand her being attracted to him.  And him to her.

None of that justifies rape or murder it either occured.

Nat could have been the class slut--and it still would not justify rape or murder.

HER character is not relevant if she is the victim.

Their is something that is well said.

[Anna]

writenow wrote:

Katya-friend-of-Joran,

We're not talking about other cases here. We're talking about Natalee. That's why it's labeled Natalee Holloway. You know. You clicked on it when you entered this forum. We're talking about justice in THIS case. Got it?

writenow sorry i disagree on that. I don`t like it if you are bashing Katya for having another opinion then yours, If that is so then you can bash me too, b/c we al have our own opinion and I`m also not a friend of Joran or the kalpoes but some of us have maybe a much more open mind then others so why does that make it legit to bash people of who we only know that he lied once( we don`t even now how much) and b/c he lied must hang b/c he did it? I have said this before, If someone is lying that doesn`t make him/her a murderer! Whe are not in those boys shoes and we don`t have ALL facts so why is bashing and slender thru the mud of all the families is makes it ok? If there are FACTS and EVIDENCE then I think slender as much as you wish. But everybody is entitled to state there opinion I hope, I do......

<<

I don't follow.  What does this have to do with dealing with other injustices in our back yard?  Are you saying you think the blog should take on all those other cases as well?  Isn't there a general news blog for that?  I thought this one was just about Natalee.

[pinemeadows]

The simple theory revisited. oddly the new releases from custody changes this at all.

Boy meets girl, girl meets boy (not to mince words)
Girl with friends sees boy again, friends leave
Girl leaves with boy and his friends (no assumtions)
Girl and boy get in vechicle with his friends (no idea what she knew)
Vechicle drives off into the night.
Boy alive and well, as well as 2 others in the car (remember no statements are any good.)

Girl is missing and no one can tell us, how, why, when where. You have one thing left guilt.

Without statements for or against where does the guilt logically fall.

Good observation.  We are all back to square one.   We still have 3 suspects who have changed their story as many times, if not more.

And they're not talking...so there has to be someone else here...or else we need to admit these kids commited the perfect murder, and their first (as far as we know).

[inthepacific]

It's one thing to debate theories but another to debase the girl's charater and decision-making with unfounded suppositions.  Dash was asked to be here and she provided a great deal of insight and that should have been respected.

With great respect I have to ask if Natalees character was specifically impuned by this board OR if it was just that there was conjecture and opinion that ran contrary to Dash's opinion of her friend.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that people often act quite differently while on vacation than they do in their "regular" life.  And I can certainly attest to that.

Having lived in Aruba and now currently in Cozumel, Mexico (both big party islands) I see outrageous and irresponsible behavior by touists almost every time I go out of my house.  Young women, in particular come to these islands with intent to "party wild" and "get laid" by the local dive masters, instructors, CnC waiters, bartenders, cute guys on the street, whomever.......it is a demonstrable and easily observed "fact of life" down here.  It used to be that  for pure entertainment, the "locals" would sit on the sea wall across from CnC's here in Cozumel to watch the tourists (primarily American) stumble, fall, vomit on themselves, strip down, yell and scream at one another and in general make asses of themselves as they exited the club......This is not a judgment on my part....it is what happens here.  

While I am NOT saying that Natalee behaved this way, the fact remains that she fits the demographic.  And it is understandable that this theory would be put forth.

I am also not clear whether Dash actually provided valuable "insight" or just her opinion.  It has been stated that Natalee was a "good girl" in just about every sense that any of us can think of....this has been reported widely in the press, This was not "breaking news" or "insight" from Dash....

Just my opinion

I agree that in her rather "delicate" emotional state, this board was not the place for her to be.

Very well put!

[Ting]

I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.

Ting,

What happened to the "we are not Arubans on one side and Americans on the other. We are all brother and sisters united in our mission to ensure justice where justice is due?" attitude of Arubans.

I do not assume that all Arubans think/act the same. Why is it that you seem to feel such blanket contempt for Americans because of isolated experiences w/ them in this forum.

Please do not allow yourself to be pushed to an extreme viewpoint at the opposite end of the spectrum of thought and consider yourself an objective contributer here.

I do, however, appreciate that you do possess and share a unique perspective regarding this case. It is not shared excluively by Arubans though.

That is an odd interpretation of my post, to say the least.

I have noticed some interesting and widely differing views from Americans themselves on the US justice system.

I sincerely regret if my curiosity to explore those views further displeases you.

I was unable to locate any reference to Arubans in my post, which adds even more interest to your reading of it.

[Microcephalic]

Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.

while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. The person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok. So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.

Why is there neccessarily something "wrong" with this?  Joran calls Deepak and asks for a ride.  Joran starts walking.  Sends a text meesage 40 minutes later saying thanks for the ride (sic), I'm home now.

[clevfan1234]

Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.

Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!

Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.

You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.

[Scott]

 
Scott- Its not only in Aruba, In fact I usually insist that most of my friends (male & female) CALL me when they get home after we have been partying!!    I once got a scary call from a friend's mother asking me where he was after we had been partying all night & he drove home. Luckily, he was OK but you catch my drift?

In a previous post, I prefaced by saying, there would be no reasonable expectation for ANY guy to give his friend a courtesy call to let him know he got home alright, unless he was seriously hammered, and had to drive home drunk.

[KackyLacky]

I think it was very easy for many posters here to forget Dash was a kid, a teenager. She is articulate, smart and loyal (wonderful qualities). However, most of us on this board are adults who have been around the block a time or 2 and are old hats a message boards or blogs. We have grown thick skin, and can give as good as we get. That should never have been expected of Dash or MBHgirl ( sorry I know I have your name wrong). Not one of us would ever let another adult speak to our teenage child in a hateful manner. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

Right, but at same time please read my opinion with open mind: people are hard on this joran for his attitude towards the hollaways that nite they visited him....he has the same passion that dash does "young and bold", we just don't know the facts in this case enough to know what has really transpired. I have gone back and forth on this kids guilt/innocence 4 times, and until I guess I heard all of the evidence that the prosecution has down there, I will never really know what side to sway to in his guilt.

But given the fact that I am used to our judicial system here in the usa, I have to be 100 percent convinced that he is guilty to believe that he did it.

My heart goes out to her family and I clearly want them to know that I feel so bad for her, they want answers as do we all, but at same time, until this kid confesses or evidence has been presented to prove he did it, I can not stick my neck out and say "HE KILLED HER"

I hear ya clevefan, and also agree. But, joran is being held as a suspect to several major crimes. Dash and her friends are not, they are not suspected of anything. joran is.
I agree, I am vacillating on what is happening here in this case. Just when I think I have a handle, something comes up that blows my theory out of the water. I would have to have beyond a reasonable doubt to convict anyone of anything. But that is not the issue, not yet. The US system does not ask us for 100% certainity a crime was committed, the bar actually is " a reasonable doubt " not any doubt. That is the law.  

[friend of monkeys]

Tell me bout teen pressure, when I was 15 I walked in on my grandmother with a gun in her hand. Right before she took her life. Should I grab the gun or run for help….I ran…I still remember the look in her eyes..

wow...at 15 i don't know what I woud do

[writenow]

I have been gone for a couple of hours and all hell has broken out. I've only read the last seven pages...not the rest of the section I was posting on when I had to leave.....too many pages to catch up now.

Could someone please give me a quick summary of why Dash left and there are so many posts in defense of the VDS's?? Also any other news that has transpired in the last few hours would be appreciated. Thanks.

1. Steve Croes and Paulus van der Sloot released from jail/prison today.
2. Lots of Joran's & Kalpoe's friends and family on forum. They have been in abundance the last couple of days.
3. Read the last 7 pages of the last forum to get an idea why Dash is never coming back to post again. Number 2 group taking pot shots at her, MB kids and at Natalee.

but other than that, welcome!

[Curiosity]

Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.

while I wouldn't have said it the way Scott did, I just asked my 19 yr nephew a couple of minutes ago, if he would have called and or texted someone to say he was walking and he was home. The person who more normally would be calling or texting would be the person already at their home to see if their buddy got home ok. So that is the opinion of a teenage boy, something is wrong with this part of joran's story as usual.

Why is there neccessarily something "wrong" with this?  Joran calls Deepak and asks for a ride.  Joran starts walking.  Sends a text meesage 40 minutes later saying thanks for the ride (sic), I'm home now.

I've been off the board for a few hours....could someone direct me to where the reference to the email between Joran and Deepak came from?? Is this an offical email or a speculation? Thanks.

Edit....sorry text message, not email.

[Frank]

Dash provided extremely valuable insight because she was there. She was posting her perspective and opinions. She has some first hand knowledge, which most of us do not.

I'm appalled that she did not receive more compassion.

[iquitos]

Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.

Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!

Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.

 

have to disagree with the every night. we don't know that.  he was there for some contest on the night in question and won 4th place.  any mb'sr in on that one?   maybe joran was doing the same thing the MBers were doing, letting their hair down after an intense year of study.  

maybe he was good at it, maybe they were letting him win to please the judge  we don't know how much he played for but there are so many casinos in aruba i seriously doubt that all the players are high stakes.  aruba is a low end destination for the most part.  that why they have to market to groups of kids, not your most desireable segment.

[Charlotte]

Article in Birmingham News this morning--Holloway's Friends often Blame Themselves
 " More than a month ago, before the fateful trip to Aruba from which Natalee Holloway still hasn't returned, a group of six Mt. Brook teenage girls put on matching silver wishbone necklaces, a sign of their lasting friendship.  "Natalee still has hers," Mallie Tucker said on Saturday, wearing her wishbone necklace along with a yellow ribbon and bracelets that show her support for her missing friend. "We just get together and pray" said Frances Ellen Bird, also wearing her wishbone necklace at a concert to raise money for Natalee's family.  "We can't wait for her to come home."  Byrd was at C & C the night Holloway disapeared.  "I never saw her when she left," said Byrd.  "It was closing time and everyone was leaving."  She said Natalee was with Joran as early as 9:30 pm the night of her disaperance before leaving with him after the bar closed at 1:00 am.  She said it was hard to keep track of all the 124 MBHS students as they left the bar.  "I don't blame anyone," said Byrd. " Alot of us feel personal guilt " said Milner Owens who was on the trip.  "People are trying not to re-live it.  I wish we had all done something.  We've all learned a lesson from this.  We've changed.  Life is altered.  Beau Barron, also on the trip remembers being at the bar with Holloway that night and wonders how it could have turned out differently.  "Its always in the back of everyone's mind."

[writenow]

Scott - I find your latest comment really offensive.

Maybe there's some cultural difference at play here, but are you telling me it's plausible a guy would call another guy friend to let him know he made it home OK...on Aruba???  Get real!!!

Good point, Scott.

And I still want to know where Joran got the money to be gambling every night in the casinos. That's wild. I grew up playing poker with friends and relatives, but we were using chips or pennies. These casinos are big-boy, high stakes casinos. Where the heck is this kid getting all this money on his family's middle class income? Did he have a job? (We haven't heard of one.) Was he selling drugs to get money for gambling? Where is this kid getting enough money to spend five hours a night or more gambling in casinos? and if Daddy's gambling with him, how is this family financially able to absorb these losses? Because face it, casinos are not set up for someone to win consistently. The odds are deliberately set for the casinos to make the money, not you.

You can buy in to a poker tourney will as little as 10.00

Also, poker is very hot right now, and let it be known that here in my town many, many teenagers are holding tourneys at their own houses and I am talking about kids who are son's of doctors and lawyers.

You haven't answered my question. This kid has no job. Where's he getting his money to gamble?

[LilOrphan]

Okay, I don't get the Aruban LE's move, and to me they seem either wholly inept or completely driven by the desires of the Holloway family. Can someone help me understand this better?

They take in the father on suspicion of kidnapping/murder, some very serious allegations.  48 hours later he is released because "they didn't have enough evidence" to continue to hold for suspicion.  One Aruban official states that it was a move to make the son speak out.  Now, is it just because the US does things differently that I see such a problem with this mentality?

They either took him in because they were bowing to pressure and bringing him in for false reasons-- in which case they acted unethically and damaged his reputation without cause -- or they brought him in too soon without building enough of a case against him and jeopardized their whole case, IMO.  Either way they look bad.

Quickly arresting and releasing him does not release him, or themselves, from suspicion.  Makes it greater, and is cruel to all parties involved. Now the Holloway family's hopes of a speedy resolution appear dashed and Mr. VdS may very well have suffered irrepairable harm for no good reason.

Do you think they confuse the American desire for resolution and closure with bloodthirst and a willingness to accept ANY person prosecuted, even if they're not guilty?  We don't want people dragged into jail without good case. That's not going to help anything. I truly don't get the Aruban LE.

[Scarlet]

On behalf of an American if I made a comment on a foreigner, how I noticed they behaved on vacations I would be called prejudiced. (Even if I stated a fact.)  I think this is a problem of the youth not only "American" youth.  

[KoG]

I am really tempted to start a thread for Americans to discuss what changes they would make to their judicial system, if they were suddenly made the boss of it.

Ting,

What happened to the "we are not Arubans on one side and Americans on the other. We are all brother and sisters united in our mission to ensure justice where justice is due?" attitude of Arubans.

I do not assume that all Arubans think/act the same. Why is it that you seem to feel such blanket contempt for Americans because of isolated experiences w/ them in this forum.

Please do not allow yourself to be pushed to an extreme viewpoint at the opposite end of the spectrum of thought and consider yourself an objective contributer here.

I do, however, appreciate that you do possess and share a unique perspective regarding this case. It is not shared excluively by Arubans though.

That is an odd interpretation of my post, to say the least.

I have noticed some interesting and widely differing views from Americans themselves on the US justice system.

I sincerely regret if my curiosity to explore those views further displeases you.

I was unable to locate any reference to Arubans in my post, which adds even more interest to your reading of it.

Ting,

please accept my apologies...upon looking back, I realized that I had replied to your statement after having streamed it together w/ a statement by another poster (statements were unrelated) in an attempt to read quickly and keep pace w/ the posting.

Second time that's happened to me this week...lol, I promise to be more diligent from now on.