RBN #28 6/26/05 Sunday Evening

[iquitos]

I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.

Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000796.html

Joran dated an eastern Asian girl who could not have been any older than 13, a 7th grader, during the 2004/2005 school year, and their relationship was apparently on the down-low, being inappropriate, apparently, in Aruba, the Netherlands, or pretty much anywhere else in the civilized western world. Her mother discovered the relationship early in March and forced them to break up.

Article 245 of the Penal Code
A person who, out of wedlock, with a person who has reached the age of twelve (12) but not yet sixteen (16), performs indecent acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than eight years or a fine of the fifth category.

Thanks for the info, but that doesn't answer my question.

Do you know he commited sexual penetration?  

A 17 yr old dating a 13 yr old is certainly not unheard of....and saying it is inappropriate in the civilized western world (what about the civilized eastern world?).....is a bit extreme.

Unless he was charged and convicted of statutory rape, this is, once again, stretching it IMHO.

that particular item in darkside looks like pure slander to me. inquirer could not have done better.  we should avoid that kind of innuendo here.

[candygirl]

what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?

candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.

Great Idea, Thanks!  I'd really like to know....

[Professor]

Minister of Justice Hendrik Croes, whose firm serves as legal advisor to a bank known for money laundering said, ""Yes, we are involved with that bank"," says Croes. ""We still handle all their legal affairs, but we don't know anything of their financial accounts"."

That was laughable. How do you provide legal assistance for a BANK, without having some knowledge of their "financial account?" Unless all you're doing is making sure their branch offices are all in compliance with safety standards? Give me a break.

We ain't ALL idiots.

[HannieC]

Awright thats enough! That is exactly what Greta calls him! Am I wrong?
PS Hannie, you don't like anything I say so THATS JUST GREAT WITH ME!

TTown I guess you didn`t read my post , I said something else

[iquitos]

what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?

candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.

 i would think a vip plane, depending on where it is going, would get off real easy.  would not if headed to US.  we have preinspection in aruba if i am not mistaken

[KackyLacky]

what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?

candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.

a few pages back she did answer something about no planes, and the staff stayed that night leaving the next morning. It is on this thread I think, I am just to tired to look. sorry, I am almost typing one-eyed now.

[K in TX]

what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?

candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.

 i would think a vip plane, depending on where it is going, would get off real easy.  would not if headed to US.  we have preinspection in aruba if i am not mistaken

But, if they whisked her away on a private plane...don't you think someone would have noticed her, or remembered her?  I mean, I've flown on a private jet before, and there are still employees that help you to the plane, etc.  I have to think they would remember her??

[jane]

Actually, the fact that Joran is seeing a psychiatrist is the EXCEPTION, and not the RULE for sociopaths. Most sociopaths never end up in therapy because they are skilled manipulators (Mommy, mommy, if you had not gone to Holland, I would never have snuck out of the house.) and are good at getting what they want. Usually, it's a co-worker, spouse, or family member who ends up in therapy. Narcissists and sociopaths don't go crazy, they drive OTHER people crazy.

You have to be 18 years old before the diagnosis for Anti-Social Personality Disorder can be applied. Before the age of 18 it is called Conduct Disorder.

http://www.aacap.org/publications/factsfam/conduct.htm

[~TAZ_MAN~]

Sorry I wasn't clear, TAZ_MAN.  This is for a separate theory that someone overheard their plans and stalked them.  This is not part of the underground-party theory.  But, the stalker would have had to stay unseen until after Joran said goodnight to Natalee and left her on the beach.

Dallas:

Anything is possible but I will give you the reasons I believe its very improbable.

1.  Some sort of stalker/kidnapper more than likely would have reared their ugly head MANY times in the past. There would be many reports of missing pretty girls from bars in Aruba, its very unlikely that Natalie was his first targer.

2. The most important issue is reports of lies and changing stories..add that to the fact that natalie was the last seen with the 3 boys can logically tell you they have something bad to hide.

Its easy to let the mind wander to very complex conspiracies but I truly believe its very simple.  Something went wrong between Natalie and Joran and if this Texas team doesnt find her within 2 weeks they will never be charged with murder unless the body surfaces on its own.

If Joran is released his family will probably move to Holland to never be seen again.

[Dallas Also]

I'm back...are we being nice? Trashed any teenagers in trauma lately?

I don't remember reading that Natalee asked Joran if he would be at Carlos and Charlies?  Is that new?

A psychiatrist?  Where did that come from?

Interesting.

The conversation between Natalee and Joran was detailed in the two-friends interview by Greta on 6-21-05.

[iquitos]

what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?

candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.

a few pages back she did answer something about no planes, and the staff stayed that night leaving the next morning. It is on this thread I think, I am just to tired to look. sorry, I am almost typing one-eyed now.

she said no scheduled flights.  these guys would be charter but they could have left in the morning too.  i think we established that security stayed dressed in black stayed at the HI.  Not that it matters.

[Dallas Also]

one thing bugs me tho....WHY wood u kidnap an AMERICAN knowing that ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE IF YOU DID

They wouldnt thats why kidnapping isnt really a logical explanation at this point.

Yes, this is valid.  Kidnapping by an Aruban would be unlikely.  Too harmful to their livelihoods.  Kidnapping by an outsider might be more possible?

[natfortplum]

I'm not sure if the Aruban government can charge Joran with the statutory rape of the 13-year old East Asian girl he was with, or if the girl, or her parents would have to be willing to come forward and be willing to testify in order for the case to proceed.

Scott...what is the source of info re stautory rape.  Do you know that happened for sure, or just speculating?

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000796.html

Joran dated an eastern Asian girl who could not have been any older than 13, a 7th grader, during the 2004/2005 school year, and their relationship was apparently on the down-low, being inappropriate, apparently, in Aruba, the Netherlands, or pretty much anywhere else in the civilized western world. Her mother discovered the relationship early in March and forced them to break up.

Article 245 of the Penal Code
A person who, out of wedlock, with a person who has reached the age of twelve (12) but not yet sixteen (16), performs indecent acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than eight years or a fine of the fifth category.

Thanks for the info, but that doesn't answer my question.

Do you know he commited sexual penetration?  

A 17 yr old dating a 13 yr old is certainly not unheard of....and saying it is inappropriate in the civilized western world (what about the civilized eastern world?).....is a bit extreme.

Unless he was charged and convicted of statutory rape, this is, once again, stretching it IMHO.

that particular item in darkside looks like pure slander to me. inquirer could not have done better.  we should avoid that kind of innuendo here.

It was also on Valentjn's (Joran's bro) gilfriends website. That they were seeing each other that is, not necessarily having sex.

[Professor]

Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering.)

[Charlotte]

There was an interview this evening on our local news here in B'ham with Beth Twitty and it was the first time I have seen her almost start to cry.  She was talking about all the support she was getting from all over the world and she said that when she stops and thinks about it, she gets overwhelmed.

Also, I think the interview with the MB students this evening was a waste of time.  What is the point of putting these kids on who didn'y see her leave and have nothing to add to the story?

[K in TX]

Sorry I wasn't clear, TAZ_MAN.  This is for a separate theory that someone overheard their plans and stalked them.  This is not part of the underground-party theory.  But, the stalker would have had to stay unseen until after Joran said goodnight to Natalee and left her on the beach.

Dallas:

Anything is possible but I will give you the reasons I believe its very improbable.

1.  Some sort of stalker/kidnapper more than likely would have reared their ugly head MANY times in the past. There would be many reports of missing pretty girls from bars in Aruba, its very unlikely that Natalie was his first targer.

2. The most important issue is reports of lies and changing stories..add that to the fact that natalie was the last seen with the 3 boys can logically tell you they have something bad to hide.

Its easy to let the mind wander to very complex conspiracies but I truly believe its very simple.  Something went wrong between Natalie and Joran and if this Texas team doesnt find her within 2 weeks they will never be charged with murder unless the body surfaces on its own.

If Joran is released his family will probably move to Holland to never be seen again.

Taz, I am so afraid that you may be right.  My biggest fear is that there will be NO trace of Natalee (and, as a parent, I can't imagine anything more awful), and that the kids will go free, to live their lives.  Which is why I think they aren't saying anything.  They aren't stupid.  My thoughts are, that if they did something with her (assuming she died), they are waiting to be sure no one finds her.  WHY would they confess right now, when there are virtually NO clues as to her whereabouts?

[iquitos]

Sorry I wasn't clear, TAZ_MAN.  This is for a separate theory that someone overheard their plans and stalked them.  This is not part of the underground-party theory.  But, the stalker would have had to stay unseen until after Joran said goodnight to Natalee and left her on the beach.

Dallas:

Anything is possible but I will give you the reasons I believe its very improbable.

1.  Some sort of stalker/kidnapper more than likely would have reared their ugly head MANY times in the past. There would be many reports of missing pretty girls from bars in Aruba, its very unlikely that Natalie was his first targer.

2. The most important issue is reports of lies and changing stories..add that to the fact that natalie was the last seen with the 3 boys can logically tell you they have something bad to hide.

Its easy to let the mind wander to very complex conspiracies but I truly believe its very simple.  Something went wrong between Natalie and Joran and if this Texas team doesnt find her within 2 weeks they will never be charged with murder unless the body surfaces on its own.

If Joran is released his family will probably move to Holland to never be seen again.

 unfortunately, unlikely the body will surface at this point.

[candygirl]

what about a private plane?  could band members leave easily enuf without normal procedures?

candygirl, arubagirl could answer this but she signed off for the night.  Can you maybe PM her with this question?  Would be good to know the answer.

 i would think a vip plane, depending on where it is going, would get off real easy.  would not if headed to US.  we have preinspection in aruba if i am not mistaken

Thanks iquitos, thats what I was wondering.....so if she was abducted, surely they would go somewhere besides the USA......could this be the answer......I'd sure like to see the flight records for the 30th and 31st

[~TAZ_MAN~]

Any chartered private plan would be logged and have been on radar.  Any unlogged plane showing up on radar would be automatically suspicious.

[HannieC]

Professor wrote:

Re Hendrik Croes: Papers filed in the Netherlands, as well as official CIA documents, claim that money laundering is Aruba's NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY. Tourism comes in second. (Actually tourism is the facilitator, since casinos, clubs and other cash businesses FACILITATE money laundering

.)

HUh.............who is Hendrik Croes??