RBN #29 6/27/05 Monday

[heavyheart]

[
I agree, my heart breaks for her family and as much as I want there to be justice, there cannot be any peace w/o having Natalee back in Alabama.

Can you imagine the pain that the parents would feel having to get on a plane to go home knowing they were leaving their daughter forever somewhere other than home

I was just thinking about that last night , and that has got to be THE worst thing that could ever happen.But in reality life has to go on, bills have to be paid and there is another child involved.I cannot even imagine.Thinking maybe I would have to build a grass hut on the beach and live out my days
holding onto hope.

The problem is that quite often, life does not go on for those left behind.  I don't think I could if this were my child.  This family will spend every last dime that they have and that anyone will loan them to find her, as would I.

I'm sure that with the amout of interest and support this family has received, they will be on the island for a long time to come with plenty of supporters.

[jane]

With all the good places to send money  to help    Natalee ,
What do Monkeys Think is the best?

The Equusearch people have been asking locals for food and water.

[bamajo]

Yeah, it may have been longer, assuming JvdS is the perp.  If Natalee was brought to his house, alive or not, and subsequently died, there was a good amount of time to think of and execute a plan to hide her.  If that's the case, the plan was expedited when her parents showed up at JvdS's home.

maybe not.  i could be wrong, but didn't the holloway-twitty/VDS initial meeting take place outside?  or even if inside their home, natalee could've been hidden in joran's apartment area  ???

[cancon]

I was struck by the fact the Aruban government spokesman confirmed to Fox News that the reason Paul VDS was arrested was a result of her interview and something he said which contradicted a previous statement.

[iquitos]

i sure wish greta had nosed around the v/d sloot house like she did the Kalpoes, going into the bedrooms etc.  we need to see the layout and get an idea how private that "apartment" joran lived in is and how it sits in relation to the rest of the house.  is there alternate access?  next time she visits her pet monkey next door greta should check it out.  I know there is a wall in back and a vacant lot behind it.  could joran get out that way?  anybody got a floor plan?

[cancon]

How long after she was killed did Lacey wash up?  A lot more effort needs /needed to go into question of where a body would make landfall if disposed of at sea off aruba.  i heard it was panama.  of course in the Joran scenario he did not have as much time as Scott to dispose of remains, if any.

Agreed. I'm a landlubber and most of my experience with bodies of water is with lakes, not the sea. Who here knows about tides and currents?

What was the tide stage around the time Natalee disappeared -- 2 a.m. May 30? Was the tide coming in or going out? I understand that the water is very shallow on the southwest side of the island for quite a ways out. If Natalee were left in these shallow waters, would she wash out to sea or into shore?

I believe Fox interviewed a fisherman, the west side of the island being very calm, if a body was going to wash up it would be this side of the island, if you dumped the body north or east, the current would immediately take the body miles away

now I don't know about the tides either, might there by a tide almanac for Aruba online somewhere, since sport fishing is a big sport there and presumably this is something fishermen like to know?

[Professor]

Paulus van der Sloot's waiver of the father-son privilege is much overrated. He probably did it, in order to be able to LIE for his son.

[EdwinW]

1) In shallow water she would have washed ashore Aruba
2) In deeper waters there would be records of a boat heading to sea

The exception is if she was put out to sea the next morning and not in the middle of the night.

There are many small local boats (15 - 20 feet or so) at Aruba without any record as they do not leave Aruba. I do not know the sea around Aruba, but I do know the sea around Bonaire (close to Aruba).
You'll only need to go 300 - 600 feet away to see the bottom will make a steep way down. If you drop a body there ... it will be gone for ever ...

The northern part of Aruba is very rough: lots of rocks and waves banging on these rocks. I wouldn't swim there ...

[MominTN]

Does it only seem suspicious to me that PVDS returns from the Netherlands, covers for his son, and doesn't get arrested until the judge from Curacao is in charge.  Then suddenly the judge from the Netherlands is sent over who hasn't heard so much about the case and PVDS is set free.  
Regardless of the type of judicial system in place, we think the Dutch are rather lax in prosecuting crime.  And when they cannot, as in drugs and prostitution, they just make it legal.

[KackyLacky]

hey calvary!

I started a thread in the Chit Chat area about this BTK thing, so I don't get in trouble for be OT again. See absolut, I learned something! LOLOL

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?t=413

[KackyLacky]

Does it only seem suspicious to me that PVDS returns from the Netherlands, covers for his son, and doesn't get arrested until the judge from Curacao is in charge.  Then suddenly the judge from the Netherlands is sent over who hasn't heard so much about the case and PVDS is set free.  
Regardless of the type of judicial system in place, we think the Dutch are rather lax in prosecuting crime.  And when they cannot, as in drugs and prostitution, they just make it legal.

As we say down here, somebody doing some home cookin! If ya know what I mean.

[absolut]

hey calvary!

I started a thread in the Chit Chat area about this BTK thing, so I don't get in trouble for be OT again. See absolut, I learned something! LOLOL

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?t=413

Moved yours to News Issues as well.

[Daniel]

[..] but you have to understand the European criminal system, ie. the Dutch system of law which governs Aruba has a reverse onus, you are guilty until proven innocent and therefore the state has wide powers of detention in order to assist the investigation process

This is very much untrue. There is no revere onus. It's true that the state has a strong position during the pre-trail investigations, but the rights of the innocent are quite well protected. Actually that's one of the reasons why so little information gets out - the detainees have to be presumed innocent until the trial is over and the judge has ruled otherwise. In the Dutch press, they're not even printing the full names of the suspects to protect their identities.

[Compananzi]

But they had PVDS detained as a suspect on Friday, I believe...then on Saturday, the word was out that the grounds for his detention/arrest were "complicity in premeditated murder"...very very specific.  Then the next day, he's released????   This does not speak well for Aruba LE, in my opinion.

I have no dogs in this race - don't care if he's in or out, as I don't know anything for sure.  It just seems very odd.  One day there's evidence, and the next day, there's not enough?

I agree...its very confusing...seems one day that they are very specific in their charges in regards to the father...only one in which they used the word "premeditated"....and then he's out.
Doesnt make sense ...at least not from here.

I dunno I think either Marianne had mentiond that he Prosecutor can throw a laundry list of suspicion, to be determined later on by a Judge to be credible enough to sustain a detention or not.  So on the surface those charges appear serious but it was thrown to see which would stick.

[Professor]

The previous judge had been relieved because he had "seen too much of the evidence." (sic) So they bring in a new judge, and he says, "Evidence? I don't see no evidence? I don't see no stinkin' evidence."

[icey]

As I stated before, I hope Natalee is found alive but I don't think the invesitgation is going that way. It seems like LE has a very credible reason to believe Natalee is deceased. Is it because of some sort of "confession" from the 3 punks, evidence, or possibily another informant we know nothing of?  Thier detentions seem to be easily granted each time.

My worries:

1) Is LE focused on a killing/death because even if it's unresolved it's way better publicity for Aruba than an unexplained kidnapping?

2) Why do we believe that anyone went to the lighthouse or the beach by Mariott or HI? This statement was only provided by known liars. They probably went no where near that area. Also, only one of the kalpoe brothers seems to have been home in the early morning hours. And can that even be proven?

3) If LE leaves us with story that Natalee was "left on the beach", we have to assume that all this effort was wasted and that there is a real good chance she is being held captive somewhere. This is a very scary outcome for us all and one that will haunt Aruba for many years to come, and rightly so. It matters not that these things happen elsewhere in the world. The prevailing suspicion will be: get drugged at C&C's and possibly get kidnapped with no trace. With a LE that will be of no help.

What does the FBI think? So far we have not heard their thoughts?  If they think Natalee is a "missing person", they had better be looking for her too, possibility in surrounding countrys.

We need closure for the family, and a safe return would be the best solution. Barring that, we need an answer that's beliveable and not just a generic answer that attempts to sweep this under the rug.

icey

[iquitos]

1.   For those feeling depressed, just because the Aruban police didn't have enough evidence NOW to hold these people in detention doesn't mean they won't have enough evidence LATER, anyone released can just as easily be re-arrested if the facts warrant it

2.  Was the Paul Van Der Sloot arrest an overreaction to pressure or a tactic - well if I were Joran Van Der Sloot and I hear my father has waived the father-son privilege, I'd be rather concerned because it was that privilege that had me concerned.... there is an allegation that PVDS counselled all the boys what to say - so imagine Paul tells Joran, keep your mouth shut for as long as possible, I know it is hard but to use his own words, Stand up to the pressure because you'll end up free in the long run as long as you keep your mouth shut - if they don't find the body, they don't have much of case and because I cannot be compelled to testify vs you, nor can you be compelled to testify vs me(?) then they cannot force us to say anything, as long as you didn't tell the Kalpoe brothers anything, you're good to go.......

now when it is publicly announced he is waiving that privilege that has got to make Joran very nervous and we don't know what PVDS has said to the cops this weekend

3. Regarding an island of 90,000 - as someone who lives in a town of 90,000, I can assure you I don't know at least 85,000 of them and there are many areas of town I've never been in - having said that though a tall guy like Joran walking down the road at 2:00 - 3:00 am in a heavily tourist area, giving that most of his friends were late night party animals as well, hard to believe no one saw Joran walking home and it was stated that Joran didn't strike them as the kind of kid who would walk home...

 

... and maybe even if paul knows nothing about this he suspects joran does and has decided it is time for Joran to talk so he sends the signal that he will waive his right not to testify against his family because he has had enough of this too.  on the other hand, if he knows nothing, why not testify to that?  remember, this is a man of the law (one of the good guys until this happened).  they have said a lot about him about not that he was a bad guy.

[KackyLacky]

Yeah, it may have been longer, assuming JvdS is the perp.  If Natalee was brought to his house, alive or not, and subsequently died, there was a good amount of time to think of and execute a plan to hide her.  If that's the case, the plan was expedited when her parents showed up at JvdS's home.

maybe not.  i could be wrong, but didn't the holloway-twitty/VDS initial meeting take place outside?  or even if inside their home, natalee could've been hidden in joran's apartment area  ???

yea, but how did he get her there? I have been trying to figure this out! It would make sense that joran and the rest would know they needed a cover story if something happened to Natalee there, they would have to be prepared for, say if one of her friends showed up. I don't think the Bama Posse ( and trust me if she were my daughter it would have been the Tarheel Posse, I don't blame them at all) was ever expected by joran or anyone. The Twitty's surprised them, the inital story was, I think, made up to tell other kids.

[Compananzi]

[..] but you have to understand the European criminal system, ie. the Dutch system of law which governs Aruba has a reverse onus, you are guilty until proven innocent and therefore the state has wide powers of detention in order to assist the investigation process

This is very much untrue. There is no revere onus. It's true that the state has a strong position during the pre-trail investigations, but the rights of the innocent are quite well protected. Actually that's one of the reasons why so little information gets out - the detainees have to be presumed innocent until the trial is over and the judge has ruled otherwise. In the Dutch press, they're not even printing the full names of the suspects to protect their identities.

I concur, the govt spokesperson from Aruba Reuben and the Justice spokes person Marianne say this repeatedly.  There is a lot of misunderstanding and consequent bashing of this system.  However I do have to point out the patriot act is moving us to that point anyway...err so get used to it.

[iquitos]

The previous judge had been relieved because he had "seen too much of the evidence." (sic) So they bring in a new judge, and he says, "Evidence? I don't see no evidence? I don't see no stinkin' evidence."

 

as far as we know the previous judge was not relieved.  he became a member of the caribbean court and left.  hence the new judge.