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Author Topic: RBN# 31 6/28/05 Tuesday  (Read 198808 times)
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~TAZ_MAN~
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« Reply #600 on: June 28, 2005, 07:13:52 PM »

Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Reporter on CNN is saying that Joran is changing his story everytime evidence that contradicts his previous story is handed to him. Shocked


But yet he still could be innocent.  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes
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mordred
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« Reply #601 on: June 28, 2005, 07:13:54 PM »

Quote from: "inthepacific"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
It would be against Natalee's religious faith to have knowingly been sexual with Joran. ........ teaching of the Bible.


Would it also be against Natalee's religious faith of a born again christian to drink alcohol?


People, I admit I do not follow the posts 24/7 but I fail to see how the occurence of sex/ non-sex/ petting has that much bearing on the case.  We know that her last 'known' location was in the car with Joran et al: So- he either knows what happened to her, or he is telling the truth & he left her on the beach.

My opinion is she was left alone with him on the beach, changed her mind as to how far she wanted to go, he got rough & worse!!

 BTW can anyone verify the story that the next day at school, Joran bragged about having sex with her & she drowned!? Shocked
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KackyLacky
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« Reply #602 on: June 28, 2005, 07:14:07 PM »

if all contact was innocent between joran, the bros kalpoe and Natalee, and indeed, joran left her on the beach and nothing else. Just told an "little white lie" because he was scared then I ask the following:

1. Why didn't the Van der Sloot family help in the search for Natalee?              
2. Why did joran and bros kalpoe implicate 2 innocent men, perhaps because they mattered as little as Natalee did to them?


Hannie, the problem is, we have no information to back up what PVDS says. That is not necc his fault. It is the result of the lack of transparency, that leads so many to questions and doubts of all the parties involved.
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Scott
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« Reply #603 on: June 28, 2005, 07:14:13 PM »

Quote from: "RIBoy"
A few things that really confuse me.  Especially because some people like attention:

1: No woman coming forward to say this happened to them.  even someone in the closet...say about date rape...would come forward to help someone else.

2: No people coming forward to attack Joran, his father, or kalpoe's.  there's always someone willing to pile on....I don't see it here.

3: No families coming forward to say something happened to their daughter in Aruba and they were afraid to talk.

NH's actions at the concert...who she talked to, who was staring at her, who was always near her.....therein lies the answer.


I agree that if, in fact, Joran drugged and raped Natalee, it is likely she was not the first victim; just the first to die.

My primary theory is that Joran's MO would be to prey upon already intoxicated American girls on their last night in Aruba; girls who would have a murky recollection and questionable credibility.

Even if Natalee's death was drug-induced but unintentional, Joran may well have tried to cover it up because it's unlikely to be perceived as consensual if Natalee was a virgin prior to that night.
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Loren
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« Reply #604 on: June 28, 2005, 07:14:26 PM »

Well put, Taz
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RIBoy
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« Reply #605 on: June 28, 2005, 07:14:29 PM »

Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "RIBoy"
Quote from: "azvet"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
It would be against Natalee's religious faith to have knowingly been sexual with Joran.  She is a born-again Christian, therefore would 1) not have sex, and 2) not be "unequally-yoked" with a non-Christian, which is a teaching of the Bible.


Raging hormones, warm breezes, alcohol, warm water, stranger in paridise might trump religious beliefs for a period of time. Normal stuff IMO.



I just think that anyone who truly wants to help NH needs to put it all on the table.  No secrets, no assumptions....assume anything is possible without pre conceived notions and some pieces might fit better.

that's how those kids died in the trunk.....by people thinking why would 3 smart little boys do that....never assume and keep an open mind.  someone saw something that will become clear when they erase any bias they may have either way.  Bias to NH or bias to Kalpoes or Joran and father......an open unbiased mind thinks the best.

If she was my daughter, i would hope she didn't have sex on that beach.  But if i was searching for her I would never rule it out.


I dont think her having sex on the beach (which has never been claimed to my knowledge) would really have anything to do with this case, other than perhaps catching Joran in a lie.  By the way the kids died in the car because the people involved didnt search thoroughly not because they made wrong assumptions.



It would have alot to do with the case if indeed Joran said correctly they were on the beach and she walked home from there.   It would help in the timeline for NH which we only assume from Joran's timeline.   I just hope they are not 100% fixated on Joran.....the guilty party would relish that.
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Charlotte
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« Reply #606 on: June 28, 2005, 07:15:52 PM »

Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "cancon"
I don't believe that this girl (or most any girl) would want their first sexual experience to be with someone they barely know and will never see again.  I think that is more of a "guy thing".

sorry Charlotte, it is not exclusively a guy thing, and when you are on vacation, away from parents etc, about to go off to college, sometimes even real good girls feel the urge to be "bad" and of course alcohol and drugs can also impair your judgment

this likely doesn't apply to Natalee but I have observed on my own and from anecdotal information from other parents that girls have become more sexually aggressive than in previous generations at younger and younger ages

Natalee may have felt like she was the only virgin in the crowd so let's just get it over with, assuming it was consensual, which only one person likely knows the answer to that........


Being a virgin is something you do for your own self respect, not something you do because your parents told you to.  Saying she was open to lose her virgnity with a total stranger is like saying she went to aruba to join a jazz band.  Theres absolutely nothing in her personality that would lead to that conclusion.


I think that there would have to be some self esteem issues for a girl to give it up to a complete stranger.  No reason to think she had any of those issues.  And I agree with you Taz Man
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igsigs
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« Reply #607 on: June 28, 2005, 07:15:56 PM »

Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Reporter on CNN is saying that Joran is changing his story everytime evidence that contradicts his previous story is handed to him. :shock:


I'm beginning to REALLY dislike this guy Joren.
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cancon
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« Reply #608 on: June 28, 2005, 07:16:02 PM »

Quote
By the way the kids died in the car because the people involved didnt search thoroughly not because they made wrong assumptions


including the parents, seems to me all the vehicles on the property would be a no brainer frankly
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Tila_Bean
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« Reply #609 on: June 28, 2005, 07:18:06 PM »

Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Reporter on CNN is saying that Joran is changing his story everytime evidence that contradicts his previous story is handed to him. Shocked


But yet he still could be innocent.  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes


Sure, but why lie.  Joran has changed his story several times now.  They are reporting this on Anderson Cooper on CNN if you guys want to follow. Smile
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goon squad
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« Reply #610 on: June 28, 2005, 07:18:19 PM »

<<It`s a shame how some of the people have already brand them guilty without know knowledge or evidence as well. I think that a lot of energy is spoiled in this way of doing the best we can to try give a little inside in how our law works and how there are culturel differences. People who are already have made there mind up don`t listen anyway with an open mind so why botter? They only pick a few words and bash on it and blew a story out of proportion to fit with there theory...i`m sorry to see that happen. I think that I`ll be better of with "lurking" some more in the future
instead of posting.
Gladly I know a lot of people are genuinly interested in 'our other culture' or opinions and don`t blew everything out of proportions thank you for that >>


If you can't conduct a proper crime investigation, then all this stuff about differences in law and culture is just cocktail party conversation.  Show me the Dutch legal quirk that prevents the formal interrogation of a lead suspect in a missing person case.  Show me the cultural difference that prevents the collection of evidence from suspects who cannot provide verifiable alibis.

We probably won't have any "knowledge" or "evidence" because the police failed to get it when they had a chance.  (And God help them if it turns out that the suspect had friends in high places.)

Do you think there should be some blind equivalency regarding avenues of investigation?  "Joe, you pursue the 'murder' angle.  Bob, check out the "abducted by aliens' theory."  With a point of view as indisciminate as that, you might crack a case if the suspect literally has a smoking gun glued to his hand.  

Let's get real.  When the three detainees walk out of jail, the police isn't going to be going full throttle, hunting down the missing flight passenger, or trying to find witnesses of a beach incident mentioned in a half-assed report, or dutifully following up on the dozens of crackpot theories that people develop.  When those three walk, this case will be cold.

And barring a Texas miracle, we're gonna soon see Natalee's family - despite arriving in less than 24 hours with as hot a start on a missing persons investigation as you could possibly expect - leaving Aruba defeated, heartbroken, their efforts met with incompetence (and possible corruption).  But hey, some forum particpants may like the image of the Holloways and the Twittys they see that day.
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~TAZ_MAN~
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« Reply #611 on: June 28, 2005, 07:18:20 PM »

Quote from: "cancon"
Quote
By the way the kids died in the car because the people involved didnt search thoroughly not because they made wrong assumptions


including the parents, seems to me all the vehicles on the property would be a no brainer frankly


The vehicles were searched in the beginning because the kids liked the play in the cars...no one however searched the trunk.
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Terry
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« Reply #612 on: June 28, 2005, 07:18:25 PM »

Quote from: "Charlotte"
Quote from: "Terry"
Quote from: "RIBoy"
Concerning the sweating.....i'm 45 and i've sweated profusely anytime I do anything....especially in the company of strangers.  i've had many people ask me if i was alright...they always thought I was sick.  Even something as simple as changing batteries in a toy or being totally confused......confusion brings it on all the time...usually the worst.
So does my other half, age 54. Means nada, imo.


Certainly, there are people who sweat excessively as a result of a medical condition.  But none of us were there and if Beth says she had never seen anything like it, I believe her.
I also believe her when she says she hasn't seen anything like that before... but doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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Loren
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« Reply #613 on: June 28, 2005, 07:18:27 PM »

Riboy-

Are you thinking that one of the brothers did something to NH? All three were shown to have lied at the begining and apparently lying now. That fact alone is not exculpetory for any of them!
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iquitos
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« Reply #614 on: June 28, 2005, 07:18:41 PM »

it crossed my mind that a way to pressure joran would be to put a tv monitor in his cell tuned to fox 24/7.  that would push him over the edge in nothing flat.  would it be comparable to the zaanse method?
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sb
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« Reply #615 on: June 28, 2005, 07:19:06 PM »

I agree with Dallas Also (though I am realistic enough to know that in my own personal experience, I have seen PLENTY of wonderful Christian young ladies get out of bounds under far less, shall we say, "tempting" circumstances). I DO NOT think Natalee in any way, shape or form, INTENDED to or PLANNED to see things get out of hand physically.

I have maintained from DAY ONE that this girl was DRUGGED or she never gets in a car with a strange guy to begin with. It just DOES NOT make sense. There were plenty of other girls on that trip, some maybe more attractive than Natalee (check out the pictures of the MB group) and I have no doubt there were some that would not have had the level-headedness or moral compass that Natalee had by all reports. Why have we not heard of their midnight trysts or their Girls Gone Wild antics or their riding off with Prince Charming to some romantic hideaway? Natalee would have been one of the LEAST likely ones to get into all this, IMHO.

I'm not saying it could NOT have happened, but the numbers seem to be against the idea that Natalee was the ONE girl out of that group who would carry on some illicit relationship with Joran on that trip or get involved with him sexually.
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Natalee's family/friends still need our prayers.
newshound
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« Reply #616 on: June 28, 2005, 07:19:09 PM »

Quote from: "RIBoy"
A few things that really confuse me.  Especially because some people like attention:

1: No woman coming forward to say this happened to them.  even someone in the closet...say about date rape...would come forward to help someone else.

2: No people coming forward to attack Joran, his father, or kalpoe's.  there's always someone willing to pile on....I don't see it here.

3: No families coming forward to say something happened to their daughter in Aruba and they were afraid to talk.

NH's actions at the concert...who she talked to, who was staring at her, who was always near her.....therein lies the answer.
RI Boy, I agree with you.  I first started noticing this type of stuff a few weeks back, after I'd read again and again and again and again that NH was SHY, that she was a quiet president of the school math club, just soooooooooo very shy.

Then I learn that she stayed up all night on the plane ride down there speaking to a man, just met on the plane, chatting for hours & hours ---  a man who has not yet left Aruba, but whom the authorities cannot find.

That's some shy reclusive shrinking violet, hey?  

There are tooooooo many places in the timeline where all sorts of nefarious characters could have noticed NH and decided to stalk her; indeed, there could be all sorts of men who hang out on the beaches just waiting for unaccompanied females to come on by.



But see..... if you say this..... then you are NOT following the Party Line, and therefore you are stating that NH is a "bad girl" --- so help me, all these quaint ridiculous behaviors meaning to save Natalee's so-called Reputation MAY end up, in the aftermath, to be found to be what lead to her demise.

It horrifies me that MAYBE the LE authorities only know what the discussion forums know for FACTS and actual evidence....
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AnnieMW1
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« Reply #617 on: June 28, 2005, 07:20:22 PM »

Here's what I still don't get about this case:

a. Let's assume the brothers are telling the truth.  They dropped Jor/Nat off around 2p at Marriott Beach.  I heard that they have a cell phone record of Jor calling Deepak at 2:45p-3:00p...and that a message was left saying that Jor was on his way home.  Then, 40 minutes later, he text messaged Deepak saying he was home.  So...what could Jor have done between 2p and 2:45p?  Are the beaches so private that he could have raped Natalie and carried her up to a car?  Whose car?  I don't think so.  I think if anything happened on the beach, he dragged her to a secluded spot and covered her up - to come and get her later.  He then walked home - and the Dad is involved in the cover-up.

b. Let's assume the brothers are lying.  Well, then anything goes....because Jor/Nat were in the backseat and these guys had wheels.  But....I'm not sure they're lying.  They have stuck to the same story for 2 weeks now.  Yes, they helped Jor lie....but I'm not sure they were involved in Nat's disappearance.

c. So...let's say the brothers are telling the truth and nothing happened at the Marriott Beach.  How did Jor/Nat get to his apartment (if that's what happened)?  Taxi?  I'm presuming they have already asked the taxi drivers about that.  Could they have walked?  If something happened in the apartment, that would explain a lot.  But, if nothing happened in the car, why are Deepak and Satish in the driveway cleaning it at 3:45a that morning?

I can't figure it out.
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PoorPaulaNNJ
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« Reply #618 on: June 28, 2005, 07:20:42 PM »

Quote from: "DT"
Quote from: "Dallas Also"
It would be against Natalee's religious faith to have knowingly been sexual with Joran.  She is a born-again Christian, therefore would 1) not have sex, and 2) not be "unequally-yoked" with a non-Christian, which is a teaching of the Bible.


I agree it was probably against her religious teachings to have sex.  And her character as described by her friends certainly seems like someone who adhered strictly to her beliefs. But, I'm not sure that this by itself would mean that she didn't have sex.  I know A LOT of girls who are Christians who do things worse than what some people are alledging she did.

That being said I just don't see her having sex in the car, for a number of reasons.  Something may have happened at the beach, but if our only source for it is Joran then I would be pretty skeptical.


Has anyone thought of this? She had a hotel room, so if she was looking for sex, I think Joran would have said, 'after we had sex in her hotel room.' But he didn't say that. So I think it's bull.
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klaasend
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« Reply #619 on: June 28, 2005, 07:20:44 PM »

Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Quote from: "~TAZ_MAN~"
Quote from: "Tila_Bean"
Reporter on CNN is saying that Joran is changing his story everytime evidence that contradicts his previous story is handed to him. Shocked


But yet he still could be innocent.  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes


Sure, but why lie.  Joran has changed his story several times now.  They are reporting this on Anderson Cooper on CNN if you guys want to follow. Smile

I suspect Taz was being sarcastic (the rolling eyes).
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