Lively Case Discussion #659 7/17 - 7/19/2007

[wreck]

I wrote:

I certainly hope you don't feel respected -- because I KNOW we all do!!

That didn't come out right!!
I meant to say: I certainly hope you don't feel DISRESPECTED -- because we all DO respect you immensely!

dang it!!!! You KNOW what I was trying to post!!    

[2NJSons_Mom]

Thanks 2NJ. I have a terrible time pulling up the FP stuff for reference.  That is why I am looking at the archives.  If you would be so kind, I would appreciate it if you would let me know what you find.  

Believe it or not, I too would like to put Lorenzo to rest too. He just won't go away...he's like a bad dream or maybe heartburn.  

I agree...I have the beginning of the FP articles up, now, but it's a PITA to get there.  Will let you know if I find anything for your heartburn. Maybe a chaser of S & S will do it.

[msmarple]

One of the early things we heard about Lorenzo was that he is "reculsive" ...

I don't think he goes clubbing, or sells grass, or any other drugs, on the street. Of course people might come to him.

Any parties would be private ones. He may have a "package deal" for the music van and (if you say the secret word) drugs ... although "drugs" might  be limited to home-grown marijuana?

Remember, they only found "hemp" at his house.

I think he tends to keep to himself.

(This is just my perception.)

[MsVada]

I wonder why someone would take the story of the 5th suspect as being the one that had dinner with Natalee?  What happened that could have been construed as that scenario?  Maybe she and her friends were sitting there eating and this guy came up or as some have said maybe it was another girl.  I have always wanted clarification on that.

Maybe she and friends finished dinner at the HI and she was then approached by the guy who she spent 30 min talking with that we have heard about? This might have been perceived as having had dinner with by someone who witnessed part of this interaction?

Yes, and do I recall hearing that there is a section of C&C's that is sort of a restaurant?

[Anna]

Anna
I understand you think Lorenzo isn't involved at all and may constitute a red herring in all this.  I truly respect your opinion.  I have no problem with it at all.  I have long had dissenting opinions on things that I too, would not mention in order to avoid conflict.   Do I have this correct that you continue to believe that Lorenzo is not a key player here?  Please, know that I am not trying to cause a ruckus...I just want to be clear on what you think.  You are most assuredly one of the more intelligent posters we have, especially when it comes to level-headed thinking and fact finding.  BTW I am just talking to Anna right now, so please, everyone bear with me.  I don't have an email addy or I would do this in private. Sorry.

Well, Lala's, just yesterday ******* said I always want to "fight" about Lorenzo and I did find that an odd thing to say just because I don't agree that LVR is somehow responsible for the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

I think he is a known drug dealer and was questioned as to what he might have sold to the J2K.  For example, did he sell ecstasy or GHB or something along those lines to them?  Which one of them, etc.

I don't believe he killed and disposed of Natalee Holloway as some sort of favor or is some kind of hired hit man for PVDS and Joran.  I think he was injected into the fray very early on because the cops asked him about selling anything to the suspects since his nickname was Ecstasy and he was known for drugs.  I don't know the legal ramifications of selling something that later turned out to be lethal.  He might be legally implicated in that way, however.

I think he is protected because children of suicide victims are something like four times more likely to commit suicide themselves and he is known to have already had mental problems.  

He was pushed as a suspect along with Leon von Loon by scubajap and the ANYBODY BUT JORAN committee which also makes me tend to disregard as they were mostly putting out false information.  

I would never question anybody's parentage without some kind of proof as I think that crosses a decency line.  Sorry, but I do.  One of my kids doesn't resemble me, his father or anybody I know.  But I assure you he has the same parentage as the other two.  He does bear a strong resemblance to Justin Timberlake with the shaved head version.   And we won't even discuss Prince William and his red hair!      

One time someone accidentally said to me about another of mine "Oh, that's got to be Dr P's child!"  I answered her "No, it's Dr T's child but we used to live next door to the P's!"  LOL!  I thought I was very funny saying that.  She turned almost purple she was so embarrassed as well she should have been.

If any proof of a connection is ever provided, I will gladly change my assessment of his involvement but I don't take comments by anonymous posters on forums as proof of anything. Unless it is said by a suspect or somebody directly involved or in a position to actually know something for a fact, I just don't take it as a fact.  It is someone's opinion.

We all have one of those.

And now I am leaving because I did the very think I said I wouldn't do and got into the Lorenzo discussion.  I will be back later when the subject gets off him and onto something less controversial as my dissent seems to rile some people very much.  I don't really care but also don't think saying I want to fight is respectful at all and wonder since when we all have to agree on everything.

[Tiger]

Well,KJ did not arrest LVR on the drugs.GVC was arrested for that.I think Lvr is leverage,not the real perp.I notice that it constant the effort to point away from joran.One fact,which ones were known for their violent tempers,case solved.

[Anna]

One of the early things we heard about Lorenzo was that he is "reclusive" ...

I don't think he goes clubbing, or sells grass, or any other drugs, on the street. Of course people might come to him.

Any parties would be private ones. He may have a "package deal" for the music van and (if you say the secret word) drugs ... although "drugs" might  be limited to home-grown marijuana?

Remember, they only found "hemp" at his house.

I think he tends to keep to himself.

(This is just my perception.)

That is my perception as well.  He can't be reclusive and having huge parties at the same time.  The two don't mix.

I heard early on that the party the night Natalee disappeared was attended by only six people.  And since we LOVE rumors, also that some of the posters at racejunkes or that other site had a major dispute with his father over a car some time in the past and did not really care much for him.  He is certainly a rumor magnet for some reason but I think mostly because no one really knows that much about him.
See.   I can't just keep my trap shut about him and so should disconnect my keyboard until the fascination goes away!  

[Anna]

I wrote:

I certainly hope you don't feel respected -- because I KNOW we all do!!

That didn't come out right!!
I meant to say: I certainly hope you don't feel DISRESPECTED -- because we all DO respect you immensely!

dang it!!!! You KNOW what I was trying to post!!    

No, Wreck, but if I don't agree then I am said to be fighting.  Same with the shoes.  Not worth the effort to try to explain over and over something that was arrived at over two years and not the result on any one thing but a plethora of tiny details that all come together to form an opinion.

I don't think dissenting opinions are respected nor posters who post them.  The poster is attacked and not the post.  And I don't mean YOU.  We have posted together almost from the first week without a cross word.  I am sure we do not agree on everything, too, but I do respect your right to your opinion and don't feel any need to call names or accuse people of wanting to fight if they don't agree.  

When someone does not agree with me, unforunately I usually want to know their reasoning and that is deemed fighting apparently.  I am genuinely curious as to why others think differently about things for I might learn something new or an angle I had not considered.  I think my posts seem far more emotional or involved or determined than I feel so might be my style of writing.  But anyone who has heard my voice on Dana should know I am extremely laid back, sleepyheaded sort and not at all prone to being emotional.  My posts may sound more so than they are beacause I am trying to compensate for that.

[Anna]

One last thing then back to work. . .

This is a product I have used on five different computers without one bit of trouble.  It is a very small program and easy to download and use.  You can type anywhere on the internet then right click the mouse and a menu will appear to check the SPELLING.

It's free!  It works!  It has never caused me any problems at all

http://www:iespell.com

You can use it here or anywhere you type on the net.  Really fast and easy to use so that even I can use it.

[Anna]

Sorry,

 

That link doesn't seem to work.  Try this one:

http://www.iespell.com/


NO EDIT BUTTON-hint, hint, Dugga!  

[Tamikosmom]

Well,KJ did not arrest LVR on the drugs.GVC was arrested for that.I think Lvr is leverage,not the real perp.I notice that it constant the effort to point away from joran.One fact,which ones were known for their violent tempers,case solved.

In the Natalee Holloway case ... other than the security guards ... there were only eight suspects who were arrested ... held in pre-trial detention.  All the rest were considered  witnesses who were brought in for questioning ... Lorenzo included.

Janet


Joran, Deepak, Satish, Steve Croes and Paulus
FOX NEWS
June 24, 2005

Joran van der Sloot (search) and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are being held under suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

A fourth man, party boat DJ Steve Croes, is being held under the same conditions.

The fifth man, Paul van der Sloot (search) — the father of 17-year-old Joran — was being held on suspicion of complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping. Under the Aruban system, complicity is a lesser charge.


Geoffrey van Cromvoirt (GVC)
ABC NEWS
April 24, 2006

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, 19, has been released into the custody of his parents after spending more than a week in an Aruba jail on suspicion of "criminal offenses that may be related to the disappearance" of Natalee Holloway.


Guildo Wever
FOX NEWS
May 22, 2006

Guido Wever, an Aruba national, is expected to face charges Tuesday in a Dutch courtroom connection with the disappearance of the high school senior. Wever's lawyer, Gerard Spong was expected to file a suit Monday to prevent his extradition to the Caribbean island on charges of "assisting in the murder, heavy battery and kidnapping" of the teen.

[Tamikosmom]

In the questioning of June 28, 2005 ... Lorenzo must have implicated Deepak and Satish. The following record was obtained from the log of witness statements that Phil McGraw was requesting from the Kalpoe attorneys.

Janet


Kalpoe v. McGraw, et al.
Case Number: BC3 63401

Name: Lorenzo Van Rijn
Date: 28 June 2005 / 17:00
Pages: 2
Writer/Initiator: Giovanni Heyliger
Description: witness statement


Vivian Van Der Biezen - Spokesperson for the Prosescutor
NANCE GRACE
June 10, 2005

GRACE: Why is it that the defense attorneys for the other four have not been allowed to see this Dutch boy`s statement, the son of the Aruban judicial official?

VAN DER BIEZEN: This is because when a defense attorney has a client, then the defense attorney will have only the statements that relate to his clients. If the defense attorney doesn`t have information about one of the suspects, this means that this suspect did not have any accusations against his client.

[SunFreak2]

ARUBA - conflicted again

Negotiations started in America

 

ORANJESTAD – The negotiations to put an end to the conflict between the personnel of Valero Aviation and the parent company Valero are currently taking place in the United States .

 

Iowa , the union that represents the personnel, came with a counter offer, which pushes out the earlier offer of Valero.

Johannes ‘Boy’ Anthony of Iowa told the Amigoe this morning that the negotiations are no longer taking place in Aruba .  The American sister union United Steel Workers Union is now conducting the negotiations with the headquarters of Valero in San Antonio .  Depending on the results, the union will deliberate with the 15 employees of Valero Aviation about the next steps this afternoon.  If by any chance the results are not satisfactory, the strike will continue for the second week in a row.

 

Spokesperson of Valero, David Smith indicated that the employees are not being paid for the hours they do not work.

Valero says that the company is doing her best to bring the situation to a good end.  They continue to negotiate and come with new offers.  On July 11th, Valero came up with another offer, but also this one was rejected.  They came with another one on July 12th which has two options for a cao; a two-year agreement from August 1st till July 31st, 2009, with twice a salary increase of 4 percent, a one-time bonus of 750 florins, and a Christmas bonus of an average of 3000 florins (based on the salary); a two-year cao with a retroactive 5 percent salary increase, starting March of this year, another 3 percent salary increase starting August 1st, 2008, an immediate bonus of 250 florins if they accept the cao, and a Christmas bonus of 1500 florins.

 

This last offer is valid up till Thursday, says Smith.  He says that Iowa has not responded yet.  Anthony indicated that the union has a counter offer and will therefore not react on the above options of Valero.  The consequences of the conflict for the air traffic are not big, because Valero has put together a replacing team that provides the airplanes with fuel during the strike.  Valero is making extra costs with this, but these are negligible, says Smith.  “It’s not so much the economic damage, but especially getting the people back to work every time.  They are currently making a lot of overtime.”



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
from todays Amigo, http://www.amigoe.com/english/

[igsigs]

Does anyone remember a discussion about Natalee making a drug run for some in the MB group?  I don't remember if it was here, or brought here from Dan's...If so, could that have been part of this earlier in the week business?  Guess I could go back and dig in the archives for that, too.  

Bendex introduced this topic at SM. Don't know if it was in June...or later.

[San]

One of the early things we heard about Lorenzo was that he is "reculsive" ...

I don't think he goes clubbing, or sells grass, or any other drugs, on the street. Of course people might come to him.

Any parties would be private ones. He may have a "package deal" for the music van and (if you say the secret word) drugs ... although "drugs" might  be limited to home-grown marijuana?

Remember, they only found "hemp" at his house.

I think he tends to keep to himself.

(This is just my perception.)

Hi msmarple, I find it hard to believe that he keeps to himself.  I think he surrounds himself with specific people.  He has that fast car and a fast boat so to me that says he is out and about but just limits himself to certain people and places.  This guy has made a name for himself and you don't do that by keeping to yourself.

[klaasend]

Igsigs - here is Bendex's post regarding drugs and NH.  Completely unbelievable to me.

bendex


Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dutch guy living on the argentinian pampas
 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject:      

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
anyone supports my theory

I think the are all involved in a drugs smuggeling scam.

I think they used Joran to seduce her and convince her to smuggel drugs. For a sum of money.
Who is going to check group graduates coming from there vacation.
She consumed small bags of cocaine.To take allong to the U.S. One of the bags broke aand they all panicked.

Why I think that ?

First every week smuggelers are caught in aruba who have cocaine in their bellies

Second, many students of international school of aruba afterwards study in the united states so their is someone to recieve it.

Thirdly in my country lots rich kids consume cocaine,Or are involved in drugs.I asume it is the same for other developed countries. so that is not strange.

Four. When the bags broke they all panicked. And there was an urge to detoxicate her.So who to call on a disc jockey. Good disc jockeys know everyone. That explains the involvement of the d.j. if not he might be the suplier as well .

Five they took her to a place to detoxicate her , to a boat a house.

six still there was no body found , which scrupelous criminal is going to to dump a body full of cocaine.

seven they decided to stay low , that explains the case why there are rumours that she still is alive , and have her afloat within a few days. But there was to much media attention.

[ospainter]

I wonder why someone would take the story of the 5th suspect as being the one that had dinner with Natalee?  What happened that could have been construed as that scenario?  Maybe she and her friends were sitting there eating and this guy came up or as some have said maybe it was another girl.  I have always wanted clarification on that.

Maybe she and friends finished dinner at the HI and she was then approached by the guy who she spent 30 min talking with that we have heard about? This might have been perceived as having had dinner with by someone who witnessed part of this interaction?

Maybe it was Max Arends (is he Dilma's son?) and he said he was at Lorenzo's.  They say he was questioned first.  Jaime C. is questioned about Max Arends.  Haven't seen anything from the Joran book about Lorenzo or Max....makes me suspicious   .

Yes, it does make one suspicious.  Those of you that dance with me will know that Simian made reference to this:

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 6:01 pm
The first guy she met has all the motive. The second guy is scared shitless in a cell.

Maybe Lorenzo is the one person that Joran fears in some way.  You know, when you are running drugs for powerful people and laundering their money in the local casinos, things can get dicey when the entire operation is about to be exposed.  I am sure you get my drift here. JMO.

Hi everyone.

Maybe Simian is talking about the Crom guy (sp) that she encounterd at C&C as being the first guy, if in fact that happened.

OS

[wreck]

I wrote:

I certainly hope you don't feel respected -- because I KNOW we all do!!

That didn't come out right!!
I meant to say: I certainly hope you don't feel DISRESPECTED -- because we all DO respect you immensely!

dang it!!!! You KNOW what I was trying to post!!    

No, Wreck, but if I don't agree then I am said to be fighting.  Same with the shoes.  Not worth the effort to try to explain over and over something that was arrived at over two years and not the result on any one thing but a plethora of tiny details that all come together to form an opinion.

I don't think dissenting opinions are respected nor posters who post them.  The poster is attacked and not the post.  And I don't mean YOU.  We have posted together almost from the first week without a cross word.  I am sure we do not agree on everything, too, but I do respect your right to your opinion and don't feel any need to call names or accuse people of wanting to fight if they don't agree.  

When someone does not agree with me, unforunately I usually want to know their reasoning and that is deemed fighting apparently.  I am genuinely curious as to why others think differently about things for I might learn something new or an angle I had not considered.  I think my posts seem far more emotional or involved or determined than I feel so might be my style of writing.  But anyone who has heard my voice on Dana should know I am extremely laid back, sleepyheaded sort and not at all prone to being emotional.  My posts may sound more so than they are beacause I am trying to compensate for that.

One last thing -- then I will shut up!  

I still think you are being a little "sensitive" on the "Lorenzo" issue. Sure there are a lot of "rumors" about him -- but in this case -- what isn't
 a rumor for Pete's sake?????
Since we got the archives back, it is more than evident that we should be paying more attention to Lorenzo as his name came up so many, many times from the Arubans. Do I personally think Lorenzo murdered Natalee?? NO!
Do I think he may be involved in her disposal?? Very possibly!!

I just don't think we should be ignoring him simply because we have only "rumors" about him. [/Rant]

[friend of monkeys]

Does anyone remember a discussion about Natalee making a drug run for some in the MB group?  I don't remember if it was here, or brought here from Dan's...If so, could that have been part of this earlier in the week business?  Guess I could go back and dig in the archives for that, too.  

Bendex introduced this topic at SM. Don't know if it was in June...or later.

if not natallee...someone close to the group did at some point on the trip.
they can deny it all they want.   i would.

[friend of monkeys]

edited  to add......i do not agree with bendex theory.....just minor dabbling with what was available in aruba  so readily