Lively Case Discussion #664 7/24 - 7/25/2007

[ldstlou]

ldstlou- I bet his wife would thank us if he did go look for a job, actually it requires getting off the bar stool to find one too !!!  

yep!!! boy now there's an effort!! lol

Have a great day all...hi ho hi ho it's off to work I go...unlike Fat Bastard, I DO have a job!! lol
See ya all tonight!!

[msmarple]

http://www.diario-aruba.com/2007/7/24/

AINDA NO A LOCALIZA ARMA USA PA TIRA RIBA WARDA DI POLIS
 
ORANJESTAD (AAN): Mas informacion a drenta relaciona cu e caso di bashamento di bala riba Diasabra atardi na Aruba. DIARIO a haya sa, cu te ainda e arma peligroso no a worde localiza. Tabatin testigo cu a wak e arma.

Polis a haci buskeda na cas di e sospechoso, y aki a worde descubri entre otro e droga cla pa bende y tambe proyectil di arma, di e tipo “hollow point”, (conoci como Cop Killer). E ta un bala peligroso cu ta pasa door di bulletproof vest.

Tambe nan a haya caha di bala, balanza, y e plantacion grandi di marihuana. E dos ruman Kock a worde deteni y nan ta encarcela. Nan detencion a tuma lugar dilanti cas na Picaron, y Polis a saca nan arma pa asina obliga e personanan di baha di e vehiculo.

Tambe ta pa menciona cu di esnan prome cu a worde deteni a yama warda pa notifica cu ta clapchi el a tira. Pero testigonan a wak arma di berdad. Pero ora cu el a worde aresta e mes a grita el a yama warda caba.

Riba Dialuna, DIARIO a tene un entrevista cu hefe di Recherché Oranjestad, esta Inspector Hodge. E ta haci un suplica riba esnan cu sa kende por tin arma pa reporta esaki di tipline di Polis, ya cu tin segun informe basta arma ta circula bao di comunidad, e ta un situacion peligroso.

A bay asina leu cu hasta a yega di tribi tira riba warda di polis, respet a bay. Un suplica fuerte pa seguridad reporta sin miedo, polis mester di ayudo ,nos ta haci maximo esfuerzo pa soluciona casonan.

Locual ta e caso di e dos rumannan ta keto bay bao di investigacion profundo no ta exclui cu lo por tin mas detencion na caminda, pasobra arma nota cay for di cielo.

Online Pap translation:

still not owing to localiza arm using for throw on keep of police

oranjestad (aan): more informacion owing to enter relaciona cu the caso of bashamento of ball on saturday nightfall at aruba. daily paper owing to achieve know, cu till still the arm dangerous not owing to worde localiza. had witness cu owing to look at the arm.

police owing to haci buskeda at home of the sospechoso, y here owing to worde descubri among another the drugs cla for sell y also proyectil of arm, of the type “hollow point”, (conoci because; cop killer). the is one ball dangerous cu is happen door of bulletproof vest.

also they owing to achieve box of ball, balanza, y the plantacion big of marihuana. the two brother kock owing to worde deteni y they're encarcela. they detencion did take lugar fast cas at picaron, y police owing to saca they arm for so obliga the personanan of descend of the vehiculo.

also is for menciona cu of esnan first cu owing to worde deteni owing to calling keep for notifica cu is clapchi past owing to throw. but testigonan owing to look at arm of berdad. but hour cu past owing to worde aresta the self owing to bark past owing to calling keep end.

on monday, daily paper owing to as one interview cu boss of recherché oranjestad, esta inspector hodge. the is haci one suplica on esnan cu know that can have arm for reporta this of tipline of police, already cu have according informe enough arm is circula bao of comunidad, the is one situation dangerous.

owing to bay so far cu even owing to arrive of be bold throw on keep of police, respet owing to bay. one suplica strong for seguridad reporta without fright, police have to of aid come across,nos is haci maximo esfuerzo for soluciona casonan.

locual is the caso of the two rumannan is keto bay bao of investigacion deep do not exclui cu will can have more detencion at caminda, because arm notice cay for of cielo.

* * *

HOMBER HAYA MORTO, DEN LAMAN DEN CERCANIA
DI CAS DI GOBERNADOR
 
ORANJESTAD(AAN): Dialuna mainta polis a ricibi yamada, cu den laman na Loyd G. Smith Boulevard, dilanti di oficina di abogadonan Gomez & Bikker, lo tin un curpa sin bida ta drief den awa. Ora cu autoridadnan a yega, di berdad tabata tin un curpa ta drief den awa.

Un di e agentenan policial a drenta awa y a saca e curpa for di awa. El a check pols di e persona y nota cu e no tabata bibo mas.

Alrededor di 11:13 di mainta dokter van Veen a constata morto di Francisco Ignacio Rogers, mihor conoci como “Zico”, naci dia 9 di December 1961, registra na e adres Rooiweg 21.

Zico tabata biba riba caya y semper tabata cana cu su bala di basket, ta hasi kenshi. E lugar unda cu el a wordo haya, ta unda e tabata drumi tur dia.

Apesar cu tur cos ta indica cu Zico a muri hoga, autoridadnan a pidi pa hasi un autopsia, pa haya sa sigur causa di su morto. DIARIO ta extende palabranan di condolencia na famianan di e fayecido.

Online Pap translation:

man achieve dead, in sea in cercania
of cas of governor

oranjestad(aan): monday morning police owing to ricibi call, cu in sea at loyd g. smith boulevard, fast of office of abogadonan gomez & bikker, will have one curpa without life is drief in water. hour cu autoridadnan owing to arrive, of berdad was have one curpa is drief in water.

one of the agentenan policial owing to enter water y owing to saca the curpa for of water. past owing to check pols of the person y notice cu the not was bibo more.

alrededor of 11:13 of morning doctor van veen owing to constata dead of francisco ignacio rogers, mihor conoci because; “zico”, naci day 9 of december 1961, registra at the adres rooiweg 21.

zico was live on caya y always was march cu his ball of basket, is make kenshi. the lugar where cu past owing to wordo achieve, is where the was sleep all day.

despite cu all cos is indica cu zico owing to die hoga, autoridadnan owing to ask for make one autopsia, for achieve know assure cause of his dead. daily paper is extende words of condolencia at famianan of the fayecido.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou- honestly on a serious note I would not respond back to him again, he's obviously a whack job which concerns me for you.

Buckshot- I think Oduber and his party are so used to controlling everything or pursuing their interest in controlling everything, that they would have never come clean with this investigation.

I agree...I ignored the last one...he is obviously very lonely and looking for someone to chat with!!!

Will wait until we get him in the Monkey Cage!!! lol

Don't forget the "Rope-A-Dope"!!

[Rob]

Can someone log on to 24ORA and tell me if you see pictures? I think they might have bounced my IP for boosting pictures.

It's the only place I can't get pics. So I don't need to clear my cookies, my underwear drawer, the ice bucket that smells funky in the freezer or the lint catcher in the dyer.

Thanks and Good Morning!!!

[klaasend]

Question: Does anyone feel that Natalee was buried in the landfill and dealt with there? Seemed awful suspicious that when her father, Dave, began looking / organizing searches there, "mysterious" problems began - fire at the dump, moving debris over top of areas (specifically prepared to search), etc.. Just wondering...

Welcome Buckshot - very possible!

[klaasend]

Can someone log on to 24ORA and tell me if you see pictures? I think they might have bounced my IP for boosting pictures.

It's the only place I can't get pics. So I don't need to clear my cookies, my underwear drawer, the ice bucket that smells funky in the freezer or the lint catcher in the dyer.

Thanks and Good Morning!!!

Yes, I see pictures

[Rob]

Can someone log on to 24ORA and tell me if you see pictures? I think they might have bounced my IP for boosting pictures.

It's the only place I can't get pics. So I don't need to clear my cookies, my underwear drawer, the ice bucket that smells funky in the freezer or the lint catcher in the dyer.

Thanks and Good Morning!!!

Yes, I see pictures

jeez some people get upset when you 'borrow' their pictures.

I'll see if anonymonkey works.    

[BUCKSHOT]

Question for those reading:

Greta led in coverage, in this case, on cable news - I tuned in every night for breaking news on the case (like the rest of the nation). She had panel after panel adding their respective 'two cents' on the case each and every night.  At some point, she stopped trying to help solve in solving the crime and began using the story to her advantage, in terms of ratings.  I am OK with a news anchor concerning themselves with ratings as it directly affects their paycheck.  But, what a drop-off and, furthermore, what a disappointment !!!

The turning point for me was two things: (1) Showing up at the Kalpoe house and Aruba seeking to talk to her, possible detention for questioning(if I am not mistaken), and (2) The infamous interview with Joran.  I do not buy that Joran was too irresistable and charming that she simply, all of a sudden, switched sides from Beth & company to Joran & company.  I do not buy Scientology explanations nor Dutch last name (heritage) type BS.  I would hope that it is the former rather than the latter.  That she could not safely enter Aruba without dealing with her snooping around, unauthorized, from previous visits.  Or is it "behind the scenes" money and influence within the media industry (being paid to steer public opinion).

I have read every opinion posted here. I am pretty objective.  Maybe the Holloway family is not completely above board and holds some 'secrets' Who knows?? They did the best they could, given the circumstances, especially after suspecting things were not above board, with regards to ALE.  Greta, I assume, is intelligent. What does she know that we do not, that would make her entertain even the slightest level of innonence for those involved, as portrayed by the media ??

[Easywriter]

Morning monkeys.

I'm coming to you live from the lovely Atlanta airport, but I don't see Atlmetroguy anywhere in sight, LOL.

The flight doesn't leave for a couple of more hours, so I guess I'll kill some time here.  

It sounds like you're *on assignment*, giving us up-to-the-minute updates.       This is great ~ we'll all vicariously travel along with you.  I'm already having a wonderful time.  

Yeah, but we need some breakfast before the flight.  

Okay, well we had a bagel with an egg and some cheese on it when we first got to the Atlanta airport.  

Okay, we are good to go now!  When will you be reporting live from SF?  What story are you going to scoop for us?

[BTgirl]

Morning monkeys.

I'm coming to you live from the lovely Atlanta airport, but I don't see Atlmetroguy anywhere in sight, LOL.

The flight doesn't leave for a couple of more hours, so I guess I'll kill some time here.  

It sounds like you're *on assignment*, giving us up-to-the-minute updates.       This is great ~ we'll all vicariously travel along with you.  I'm already having a wonderful time.  

Yeah, but we need some breakfast before the flight.  

Okay, well we had a bagel with an egg and some cheese on it when we first got to the Atlanta airport.  

Okay, we are good to go now!  When will you be reporting live from SF?  What story are you going to scoop for us?

The plane will be leaving at 11:15, then a flight of about 5 hrs, then the ride from the airport to Fisherman's Wharf, so it will be a while before any live reports. I hope I only have to report on sock monkey adventures in San Francisco, and not any live accounts of earthquakes.    

[Observer]

Looks like Rudy Croes changed his mind and will keep his Job of Minister of Justice untill 2009.Re: solodipueblo.com/

Pearl@BFN posted this
Also, same site (24) has court results for the man, Anthony I. who was responsible for killing a 15 yr old outside of Carlos n Charlies in December ...... he got 4 years and has to pay the boy's mother 8890 guilders.  Said this was his first case of aggression so he got a mild sentence.  The defendant is going to appeal the sentence.

Comments read seemed appalled at the liight sentence and once person commented that Aruba becomes "paradise for criminals".

snip of original:

4 Aña pa homber cu a dal hoben mokete        
Monday, 09 July 2007  

Corte a dicta sentencia den e caso contra e homber Anthony Ignacio,  kende a haye envolvi den un problema di pelea banda di  Carlos & Charlies dia 3 di December ultimo y caminda el a dal un hoben un mokete te mande suela

[Easywriter]

Question for those reading:

Greta led in coverage, in this case, on cable news - I tuned in every night for breaking news on the case (like the rest of the nation). She had panel after panel adding their respective 'two cents' on the case each and every night.  At some point, she stopped trying to help solve in solving the crime and began using the story to her advantage, in terms of ratings.  I am OK with a news anchor concerning themselves with ratings as it directly affects their paycheck.  But, what a drop-off and, furthermore, what a disappointment !!!

The turning point for me was two things: (1) Showing up at the Kalpoe house and Aruba seeking to talk to her, possible detention for questioning(if I am not mistaken), and (2) The infamous interview with Joran.  I do not buy that Joran was too irresistable and charming that she simply, all of a sudden, switched sides from Beth & company to Joran & company.  I do not buy Scientology explanations nor Dutch last name (heritage) type BS.  I would hope that it is the former rather than the latter.  That she could not safely enter Aruba without dealing with her snooping around, unauthorized, from previous visits.  Or is it "behind the scenes" money and influence within the media industry (being paid to steer public opinion).

I have read every opinion posted here. I am pretty objective.  Maybe the Holloway family is not completely above board and holds some 'secrets' Who knows?? They did the best they could, given the circumstances, especially after suspecting things were not above board, with regards to ALE.  Greta, I assume, is intelligent. What does she know that we do not, that would make her entertain even the slightest level of innonence for those involved, as portrayed by the media ??

Not sure what happened with Greta but she did change.

[BTgirl]

Question for those reading:

Greta led in coverage, in this case, on cable news - I tuned in every night for breaking news on the case (like the rest of the nation). She had panel after panel adding their respective 'two cents' on the case each and every night.  At some point, she stopped trying to help solve in solving the crime and began using the story to her advantage, in terms of ratings.  I am OK with a news anchor concerning themselves with ratings as it directly affects their paycheck.  But, what a drop-off and, furthermore, what a disappointment !!!

The turning point for me was two things: (1) Showing up at the Kalpoe house and Aruba seeking to talk to her, possible detention for questioning(if I am not mistaken), and (2) The infamous interview with Joran.  I do not buy that Joran was too irresistable and charming that she simply, all of a sudden, switched sides from Beth & company to Joran & company.  I do not buy Scientology explanations nor Dutch last name (heritage) type BS.  I would hope that it is the former rather than the latter.  That she could not safely enter Aruba without dealing with her snooping around, unauthorized, from previous visits.  Or is it "behind the scenes" money and influence within the media industry (being paid to steer public opinion).

I have read every opinion posted here. I am pretty objective.  Maybe the Holloway family is not completely above board and holds some 'secrets' Who knows?? They did the best they could, given the circumstances, especially after suspecting things were not above board, with regards to ALE.  Greta, I assume, is intelligent. What does she know that we do not, that would make her entertain even the slightest level of innonence for those involved, as portrayed by the media ??

Not sure what happened with Greta but she did change.

Sometimes I wonder if Greta isn't simply one of those people who enjoy taking what she would consider the contrary point of view, just because she can.

[nonesuche]

Buckshot-

We're glad you're here. I agree Greta is a mixed bag and I also think you have to have a certain measure of ego to even want a show on the cable news channels, plus she's got those above her who also have their agenda and motivations. It all goes into the mix within any given protracted story.

As for the family not being truthful, what on earth have they not been truthful about? So many lies have now been told and I am suspect some have now come from Robin H which there is a story to tell there as well. If they want to crucify Natalee and Beth over at BFN, well there is another side to this too, Beth is just too focused on the loss of her daughter to be 'entertained' by sharing family information which has nothing to do with this case.

The facts are:

- Natalee was never arrested nor ever in trouble at school and had an excellent attendance/academic/ behavioral record.

- She loved her parents and brother and extended family, and expressed that love freely to them.

- As do likely 99% of all US high school students, she did drink a measure of alcohol post her graduation at group celebration.

Beyond that Dave and Robin H both knew Natalee was going on this trip, they had every opportunity to speak their opinion and to stop it prior to her departure.

Enough of the chest beating by Robin H and MIP6. Every parent in the US is likely 'surprised' to discover their teens have had something alcoholic to drink. Welcome to our world Robin, your kids just aren't old enough to educate you on that point - yet.

[BUCKSHOT]

She certainly did change.

No news on the case could have forced her to move forward with other stuff - I understand this aspect.

However, her stance also seemed to change.  I can not even fathom what could have caused this to happen. It seems fairly obvious that a crime was committed against Natalee.  Even if one doesn't want to assume rape or murder against a person until proven 100% beyond a reasonable doubt, the limited information given to the public seems to indicate death.  And if Natalee died, her body should be able to recovered so that her family can at least have closure and pay her the proper respect with a funeral service.  Where is her body? If disposed, that is a crime at the very minimum.

Does Greta not believe Natalee is dead ? If so, what credible grounds does she have for feeling that way.  Outlandish and unsubstantiated rumors ?? Would not suffice for me.

[Hotshot]

ldstlou-

MIP6 is stalking you and that reference to Homeland Security is an implied threat. I think you should report him to your ISP/provider, send the email along with the headers to them immediately. What a joke he is, for crying out loud, go find a job MIP6 !

I am with you there, it sounds like he's been "into" your computer.  Oh by the way, he does have a job.  Its called, "I own Moombas"  You know, the one that burnt a few months ago.

[Kimmy53]

If she was buried in the landfill and destroyed (for lack of a better term), the ability to solve this crime with concrete evidence, to be presented in a court of law, becomed almost non-existent and makes this a tough case to solve.  One thing that can not be brought back is time.  

No matter how "slick" a criminal thinks he/she is, evidence is always left behind, in some capacity.  This case is no different.  Those in charge of securing evidence in this case, are nearly as guilty as the perpetrator(s) of the crime and should also be held accountable.

It does not make sense to me that Aruba would put its neck on the line for the handful of people involved. Protecting its tourism dollars would have been accomplished more efficiently through acknowledgement of a crime occurring, apologizing through medai sources, and asserting the required effort needed to bring those responsible to justice.  Aruba would have come out smelling like a rose.

The reason for protecting these particular individuals has never quite added up for me, no matter how influential they may be within their country.  Celebrities and politicians alike have been exposed, in the USA, for wrongdoing and life still continues.  Right is right, wrong is wrong.

My opinion of this is that maybe in the VERY beginning it consisted of a few favors being called in....After others became involved, it kind of snowballed and there was a point in time where in Aruba's opinion it was too late to turn back.  

Someone made the decision that they couldn't let this be solved.  Bad decision - now they are paying for it.  

I personally don't think it started out as a huge conspiracy to cover but it morphed into the big mess it is now.  Something came to light during the investigation early on that changed the dynamics.

[BUCKSHOT]

nonsuche,

I do not necessarily believe that any secrets, if they exist, are more than background info.  There is just enough buzz out there to make a person wonder...

The facts still remain that ALE failed miserably in handling this case in a professional manner.

I was just throwing it out there for other opinions.

[2NJSons_Mom]

She certainly did change.

No news on the case could have forced her to move forward with other stuff - I understand this aspect.

However, her stance also seemed to change.  I can not even fathom what could have caused this to happen. It seems fairly obvious that a crime was committed against Natalee.  Even if one doesn't want to assume rape or murder against a person until proven 100% beyond a reasonable doubt, the limited information given to the public seems to indicate death.  And if Natalee died, her body should be able to recovered so that her family can at least have closure and pay her the proper respect with a funeral service.  Where is her body? If disposed, that is a crime at the very minimum.


Does Greta not believe Natalee is dead ? If so, what credible grounds does she have for feeling that way.  Outlandish and unsubstantiated rumors ?? Would not suffice for me.

Welcome, Buckshot.  I have suspected that Tacopino's alliance with Fox as a commentator and then as JVDS's attorney in the NY case had something to do with Greta's turnaround,....not sure why and I'm sure others may be able to refute it....

[2NJSons_Mom]

I'm sorry, my last post is within the quote...damn...did the same last night...