Lively Case Discussion #664 7/24 - 7/25/2007

[klaasend]

Another post by GrannyToad this morning at BFN:

NO STONE UNTURNED means from the time Joran and the Kalpoes showed up at C&Cs  and say for the following 72 hours - up until about the time Anita returned from Nederlands.

I began that research (with annabluebird!) about Sept2005. Joran and his father, and the Kalpoe brothers, had begun filling that timespan with lies on Monday, the same morning of the night Natalee was disappeared. One has to go back to when it ocurred and necessarily keep the lies and PVs on the other side of the line where they belong, and the facts in a separate "ledger".

It is pointless to spin ones' wheels in the sand "investigating" lies, let alone much in the way of their discussion other than to point out that lies are lies. Do not buy into the misdirection. It's been intentional and it's been there since early on - particularly in Joran's behalf.

[Tiger]

Hi and morning Monkeys.Have a good time BT.i think the body may have been placed in more than one spot.i have always felt the wever creamated and the bones,etc were dropped at sea.I also feel some of the evidence is in the landfill.I think that it is strange for an island so dependant on American dollares to behave this way.Other islands have had plenty of rapes and murders of Americans.the difference is the crime is quickly solved,and the tourist keep coming back.Why is this so different?That is the real question.

[Anna]

We have all come across things that were supposedly secretive or little discussed during the past two years of this investigation but it always comes back to four people got into that car and only three were ever seen on the face of the earth again.

I think the most important components of this crime are right out there for all to see.  The rest is just background, details.  

I suspect Aruba's dirty little secret is that this game had been played on the tourist girls for some time but likely exacerbated with the advent and availability of the date rape drugs like GHB that erase memory so the victim is unable to press charges of any kind.  Was just a matter of time until something bad like this happened.

That is what I think Aruba is trying to hide and what has been alluded to many times by many different people.  They don't intend to prosecute them all or put all of them in jail so are trying to make this just go away.

If smearing the victim will help, that is what they will do.

.

[Houdini]

I think it's obvious to anyone that looks at how this was handled to see that Andy of Mayberry could have did a better job.  (with Barney's help of course) lol
It's been documented that ALE had enough classes on investigation that they couldn't be "derailed" by family members showing up on the island.

I have yet to hear that they did an accurate timeline of Natalee's activities once she landed on the island.  That's the first thing that is done in any missing persons case.  Of course, if they did that, they could be challenged on entries.  Maybe that's why they didn't do it.  JMHO

[Anna]

Another post by GrannyToad this morning at BFN:

NO STONE UNTURNED means from the time Joran and the Kalpoes showed up at C&Cs  and say for the following 72 hours - up until about the time Anita returned from Nederlands.

I began that research (with annabluebird!) about Sept2005. Joran and his father, and the Kalpoe brothers, had begun filling that timespan with lies on Monday, the same morning of the night Natalee was disappeared. One has to go back to when it ocurred and necessarily keep the lies and PVs on the other side of the line where they belong, and the facts in a separate "ledger".

It is pointless to spin ones' wheels in the sand "investigating" lies, let alone much in the way of their discussion other than to point out that lies are lies. Do not buy into the misdirection. It's been intentional and it's been there since early on - particularly in Joran's behalf.

Gee, I wonder who this crack researcher AnnaBlueBird could be!  Must be terrific to have been helping The Toad that early on!          

.

[klaasend]

Van di compania na candela        
Tuesday, 24 July 2007  

Diamars marduga algo pasa di 2ór algun persona cu tawata pasa riba e caminda di Palm Beach a nota con un van blanco tawata na candela. Esaki tawata den e parking lot di e compania sextasy y union caribe. E vehiculo tawata tin vlamnan hopi feroz y despues di un rato brandweer a yega pa asina paga e candela. Click read more pa tur imagen y dentro di rato video.
 







Through translator:

van of compania at candela
tuesday, 24 july 2007

tuesday marduga algo happen of 2ór some person cu tawata happen on the caminda of palm beach owing to notice con one van blanco tawata at candela. this tawata in the parking lot of the compania sextasy y union caribe. the vehiculo tawata have vlamnan much feroz y after of one rato brandweer owing to arrive for so pay the candela. click read more for all imagen y dentro of rato video. come across

[robots]

Another post by GrannyToad this morning at BFN:

NO STONE UNTURNED means from the time Joran and the Kalpoes showed up at C&Cs  and say for the following 72 hours - up until about the time Anita returned from Nederlands.

I began that research (with annabluebird!) about Sept2005. Joran and his father, and the Kalpoe brothers, had begun filling that timespan with lies on Monday, the same morning of the night Natalee was disappeared. One has to go back to when it ocurred and necessarily keep the lies and PVs on the other side of the line where they belong, and the facts in a separate "ledger".

It is pointless to spin ones' wheels in the sand "investigating" lies, let alone much in the way of their discussion other than to point out that lies are lies. Do not buy into the misdirection. It's been intentional and it's been there since early on - particularly in Joran's behalf.

Gee, I wonder who this crack researcher AnnaBlueBird could be!  Must be terrific to have been helping The Toad that early on!          

.

 

[klaasend]

Anna - lol, I thought you'ld enjoy that  

[Katysmom]

I'm confused (yet again).  I thought the other day when the BOR show was being discussed, that it was brought out that Van der Straaten was O'Reilly's source.  On his blog, Deetch is saying it was Rudy Croes?  Do we have absolute proof who the source was or is everyone just guessing?

[tcumom]

Another post by GrannyToad this morning at BFN:

NO STONE UNTURNED means from the time Joran and the Kalpoes showed up at C&Cs  and say for the following 72 hours - up until about the time Anita returned from Nederlands.

I began that research (with annabluebird!) about Sept2005. Joran and his father, and the Kalpoe brothers, had begun filling that timespan with lies on Monday, the same morning of the night Natalee was disappeared. One has to go back to when it ocurred and necessarily keep the lies and PVs on the other side of the line where they belong, and the facts in a separate "ledger".

It is pointless to spin ones' wheels in the sand "investigating" lies, let alone much in the way of their discussion other than to point out that lies are lies. Do not buy into the misdirection. It's been intentional and it's been there since early on - particularly in Joran's behalf.

Gee, I wonder who this crack researcher AnnaBlueBird could be!  Must be terrific to have been helping The Toad that early on!          

.

Gee, I can't imagine.   You are too much, Anna.    

[Anna]

Klaasm
You don't suppose that burning van is that hideous Earthquake van supposedly belonging to LVR with the naked women on it, do you?

.

[Easywriter]

I'm confused (yet again).  I thought the other day when the BOR show was being discussed, that it was brought out that Van der Straaten was O'Reilly's source.  On his blog, Deetch is saying it was Rudy Croes?  Do we have absolute proof who the source was or is everyone just guessing?

Everyone is just guessing.

[klaasend]

Dana Pretzer's interview with Jossy 7/23/07 - transcribed by Heli at RU:

Dana Pretzer Show July 23, 2007 TRANSCRIPT

Dana Pretzer Show
July 23, 2007

Transcribed from DVD recording

Dana:

.. Jossy Mansur will be here, the Managing Editor of Diario to talk about this nonsense that Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo Rivera, yeah they backtracked a little bit, but I noticed O'Reilly hasn't done a thing about it tonight. I haven't been able to see the e-mail segment of his program, where they say Natalee Holloway died of a cocaine overdose, so we're going to attack that.

.........

If you happened to catch an episode of Bill O'Reilly's, The Factor last week, I think it was last Thursday, he did a segment with Geraldo Rivera whwere they came forward with a claim that they had credible source information that Natalee Holloway had died from a drug overdose, cocaine in particular. I did a Daily Commentary on that today, talking about what an actual credible source is and what credible source information is.

I'm hearing from listeners that O'Reilly didn't comment on that. A lot of you are quite disappointed in it. I thought we'd go to Jossy Mansur, Managing Editor of Diario in Aruba tonight, to talk about this claim and other news that has come forward in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Hi Jossy

Jossy:

Hi Dana

Dana:

How are you this evening?

Jossy:

Pretty good, thank you.

Dana:

Now, you heard the claim also on The O'Reilly Factor the other evening. It's caused a whole bunch of controversy, we'll start with that. Can I get your comments please.

Jossy:

Well you know, it's very hard for me to accept that any credible source here in Aruba issued such a statement. It's contrary to anything that's within reason and for you to be able to say that this girl died from an overdose of cocaine, there must have been an autopsy, there must have been a body, there must have been a direct eyewitness, there must have been a direct confession by one of the suspects

Dana:

Exactly

Jossy:

I mean, to come out of the blue and say a credible source that you cannot prove. I think it's very foolish and opens the door to a lot of rumours and stories that are not pertinent to the case.

Dana:

It was just tabloid journalism as far as I'm concerned. You've been a journalist for a long time Jossy and I don't imagine you or your reporters would come forward with something like that

Jossy:

Absolutely not. We have to research our things totally because whatever you publish today can blow up in your face tomorrow if you don't have the evidence to back it or if you don't have a very reliable source but it has to be something within logic. You can't just say that someone died from an overdose if there wasn't any kind of a medical examination that took place afterwards. You have to research your facts very well before you can publish or go public with such statements.

Dana:

Now they're claiming their source is a law enforcement official, a higher up and you and I could probably pick who that law enforcement official is if this is actually true and I have no doubt they got some information and ran with it, however they never researched it.

Last time you were on the show we talked about this Amigoe article that came out with a whole bunch of different wild rumours, speculation at best. Do you think this was tied into that and they were just trying to find a US audience and fed O'Reilly this information?

Jossy:

I think there is something of truth in that because it seems to be a concerted effort by different factors that have come together to try to, let's put it this way, to try to liberate the island from the suspicions of being unsafe. Aruba is a safe island and we who live here know that.

We know it because there are certain places you won't go, certain things we won't do, like anywhere else in the world, but to come up with this concerted effort to try to whitewash something bad that happened, I think it's wrong, I think it doesn't favour the island at all in any sense whatsoever.

Dana:

Since last week or the last time you were on my program, I've received some questions from my listeners and if it's okay with you Jossy I'd like to ask you them

Jossy:

Sure

Dana:

You and I covered this last program and I think we've covered it before that, but in fact the e-mail starts here "one more time, is it only rumour that Lorenzo van Rijn is the illegitimate son of Paulus van der Sloot? Is this admitted by any of the admitted parties and is there any new evidence or anything at all to connect Lorenzo to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway?

Jossy:

You know, as far as we know, no, we haven't been able to make that kind of a link or connection whatsoever with regard to the case. I mean the rumours are more than rumours in Aruba that they are half brothers and they have the same appearance, they have the same height, same (inaudible), there are many reasons to believe that but it has not been confirmed by themselves, the two players themselves or anyone else in the family, no

Dana:

Has there been, since you've been on my program the last time, any updates from the investigative team?

Jossy:

No, we haven't heard anything about them, I mean I know most of them have gone back to Holland. There may be one or two of them left here, we're talking about the Dutch Forensic Team here

Dana:

Correct

Jossy:

The only thing that we know that they did was they visited the areas (inaudible) home, Kalpoe residence and they were for a very short while behind the lighthouse but that's all they did that we know of that was public. They don't speak to anyone. They (inaucible) they won't give any kind of statement. They came and they left, maybe there's one or two of them left on the island, at most.

Dana:

So they're keeping it quite close to the vest as far as what they've been doing.

Jossy:

Yes, I think they're doing the job the way they're used to doing it in Holland because in Holland they don't go into publicity and all of that and some cases they solve and some they don't.

Dana:

Jossy, you and I have both seen the videos, some have dubbed them "The Chicago Videos". In one particular video there's a large, clear plastic bag, it looks like it's at the side of a bridge and beneath that it looks like there's a pair of shoes. This video has been out for some time now . I'm wondering if there is a way that either you could help or maybe if you know if these investigators, if these forensic investigators have seen this video and analyzed it and are using it as an investigative aid?

Jossy:

There's no way for us to know because we tried to contact them to give them a copy of it because we made a copy of it specifically on the request of some family members to pass it on to them, but they're invisible, we don't even see them. How can we give a tape to someone we can't see.

Dana:

Right, exactly.

Now the Amigoe article, have there been any follow ups since then?

Jossy:

No, that got very quiet because of those outlandish statements that they made that they cannot back up with anything. This invention of an air ambulance that took her out of the island etc., etc. I mean, no, it's been very quiet on that front now and they know it was just an (inaudible) that they had, a kind of a theory that sustained from the beginning but it doesn't have any grounds to stand on

Dana:

I never saw it personally but I was told by some of my listeners that there was a link to that article on the aruban police website. Is there any truth to that?

Jossy:

No, that we have been able to determine? No.

Dana:

If you're just joining me, the Managing Editor of Diario is here, Jossy Mansur.

Let's get back Jossy to the broadcast and I'm not sure if you've seen an internet copy of it or not with Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo Rivera. Have you seen that?

Jossy:

I saw parts of it, yes.

Dana:

Alright, you did see parts of it. Is this re-hash of old speculation that has come out over the past two years that maybe these journalists decided to bring back and try and garner some interest, because that rumour as far as drugs and overdose and all that sort of stuff which was never orroborated has been heard before. What are your thoughts?

Jossy:

This has been around from the beginning. There's a theory out there that's been sustained on and off for that past two years and two months since the case (inaudible) since the girl disappeared but we've always considered it only a rumour and only (inaudible). There's absolutely no facts to back it up, no evidence, nada.

Dana:

One thing that makes my listeners scratch their heads so to speak and wonder, myself included and we'll talk about it again, is the fact of the underage drinking and gambling that had been going on admittedly by young van der Sloot.

Was there ever any discussion or has there ever been any discussion at least of filing some charges as far as that goes?

Jossy:

No, there hasn't been any of that. The authorities have just (inaudible) it aside, they haven't paid any attention to it then and they're not paying any attention to it now and over the past 26 months, I haven't seen anything in the direction of trying to make some kind of statement that this is not (inaudiable) at least make some sort of a statement that this is not (inaubible) because it is a known fact that as an underage he wasn't supposed to be in the casino, much less in the company of his father. He was there, there are video tapes to prove that and still the authorities haven't done anything with regard to that specific case

Dana:

Have the authorities been vigilant when it comes to underage drinking and gambling or do we still see that as a problem in Aruba?

Jossy:

I see it as a problem in Aruba. I mean they do their best to control it, they're under manned, they're under staffed, they're under paid and I think in order to bring about an effective vigilance on that particular subject, I think they need the necessary manpower to do it.

I don't think it's being done yet, not with the emphasis as it should be

Dana:

The locals, the local population I'm sure never in their wildest dreams, would they ever have thought there would be so much media attention, some may say 'negative' media attention towards Aruba because of the lack of progress and the " incompetence " in this investigation.

The man on the street Jossy, the man that you sit and you talk to, how would you captulate[/b] their thoughts on what's going on now more than two years later?

Jossy:

From what we can gather, most of them are disappointed that the case has been going on for so long, no resolutions, no indications of a solution. You know with the coming of these Dutch Forensic people, and we haven't seen anything that effectively influences the thoughts of the local population and they're becoming quite impatient to it in the sense that they don't see any progress

Dana:

And that's what makes things difficult for sure. Just before I end up with you and again I thank you for coming on the program. You're always a breath of fresh air to come on here. We see so much misinformation and hear so much misinformation . It is disappointing that when a program with the ability to attract so much attention as O'Reilly, comes forward with this.

Do you feel, and I know I'm asking you to speculate here so, that there's going to be more of this negativity? Is there an evil side for lack of a better term, that's going to keep feeding North American media this crap?

Jossy:

I think that that's a possibility although I (inaudible) see it because in fact if you go back to the article that came out in the Amigoe, that's died out, no consequence to it, no one's interested in it, like Joran's book, no one's paying any attention to it, it's not being recommended anywhere so it's hard to say exactly what people might think about that.

Dana:

And again, it's difficult and it's maybe not a fair question for me to ask you but I have a sneaking suspicion that this isn't done yet but I hope the North American media will at leat research before they report and if you were to give a piece of advice to a new reporter at your paper Jossy, what would that be when it comes to source information?

Jossy:

I would say stick to the facts, if you don't know the facts, don't write anything about it. Don't give misinformation because it complicates matters not only for the reader but for yourself also. It will blow back in your face sooner or later. I would advise him to stick to the truth and stuck to the facts, regardless.

Dana:

That's Reporter 101 is it not?

Jossy:

That's it.

Dana:

Jossy Mansur, thank you sir

Jossy:

Quite welcome.

[klaasend]

Klaasm
You don't suppose that burning van is that hideous Earthquake van supposedly belonging to LVR with the naked women on it, do you?

.

No..looks like a white van to me.  I just thought it interresting because it was in the parking lot of Sextacy.

[Katysmom]

I'm confused (yet again).  I thought the other day when the BOR show was being discussed, that it was brought out that Van der Straaten was O'Reilly's source.  On his blog, Deetch is saying it was Rudy Croes?  Do we have absolute proof who the source was or is everyone just guessing?

Everyone is just guessing.

Thank you, Easy.  I was starting to think my little brain was playing tricks on me

[Easywriter]

I think it's obvious to anyone that looks at how this was handled to see that Andy of Mayberry could have did a better job.  (with Barney's help of course) lol
It's been documented that ALE had enough classes on investigation that they couldn't be "derailed" by family members showing up on the island.

I have yet to hear that they did an accurate timeline of Natalee's activities once she landed on the island.  That's the first thing that is done in any missing persons case.  Of course, if they did that, they could be challenged on entries.  Maybe that's why they didn't do it.  JMHO

Andy and Barney would have had this thing solved within 30 minutes!

[klaasend]

I'm confused (yet again).  I thought the other day when the BOR show was being discussed, that it was brought out that Van der Straaten was O'Reilly's source.  On his blog, Deetch is saying it was Rudy Croes?  Do we have absolute proof who the source was or is everyone just guessing?

All guesses - nobody besides O'Reilly knows for sure

[Anna]

Anna - lol, I thought you'ld enjoy that  

Thanks, had not seen it yet.  Not enough coffee.

.

[Katysmom]

I think it's obvious to anyone that looks at how this was handled to see that Andy of Mayberry could have did a better job.  (with Barney's help of course) lol
It's been documented that ALE had enough classes on investigation that they couldn't be "derailed" by family members showing up on the island.

I have yet to hear that they did an accurate timeline of Natalee's activities once she landed on the island.  That's the first thing that is done in any missing persons case.  Of course, if they did that, they could be challenged on entries.  Maybe that's why they didn't do it.  JMHO

Andy and Barney would have had this thing solved within 30 minutes!

Hell, Otis could of solved it

[wreck]

Klaasm
You don't suppose that burning van is that hideous Earthquake van supposedly belonging to LVR with the naked women on it, do you?

.

No..looks like a white van to me.  I just thought it interresting because it was in the parking lot of Sextacy.

It looks more like the "Crime Scene" van to me.