Lively Case Discussion #664 7/24 - 7/25/2007

[ldstlou]

Another post by GrannyToad this morning at BFN:

NO STONE UNTURNED means from the time Joran and the Kalpoes showed up at C&Cs  and say for the following 72 hours - up until about the time Anita returned from Nederlands.

I began that research (with annabluebird!) about Sept2005. Joran and his father, and the Kalpoe brothers, had begun filling that timespan with lies on Monday, the same morning of the night Natalee was disappeared. One has to go back to when it ocurred and necessarily keep the lies and PVs on the other side of the line where they belong, and the facts in a separate "ledger".

It is pointless to spin ones' wheels in the sand "investigating" lies, let alone much in the way of their discussion other than to point out that lies are lies. Do not buy into the misdirection. It's been intentional and it's been there since early on - particularly in Joran's behalf.

Gee, I wonder who this crack researcher AnnaBlueBird could be!  Must be terrific to have been helping The Toad that early on!          

.

is it you?!

[Tamikosmom]

I think it's obvious to anyone that looks at how this was handled to see that Andy of Mayberry could have did a better job.  (with Barney's help of course) lol
It's been documented that ALE had enough classes on investigation that they couldn't be "derailed" by family members showing up on the island.

I have yet to hear that they did an accurate timeline of Natalee's activities once she landed on the island.  That's the first thing that is done in any missing persons case.  Of course, if they did that, they could be challenged on entries.  Maybe that's why they didn't do it.  JMHO

Andy and Barney would have had this thing solved within 30 minutes!

Hell, Otis could of solved it

Aunt Bea could have solved it and baked an apple pie all at the same time!

Hey ... Natalee's amazing mother had it figured out very early on ... Beth had it figured out that those within the investigation were not incompetent ... that there had been an agenda established ... an agenda to protect Joran van der Sloot from implication.

Janet

+++++++++++

Beth Twitty
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
December 5, 2005

TWITTY: Remember, within the first 24 hours, we knew who the suspects were. We knew the persons that Natalee were taken from Carlos and Charlie‘s. We knew the license plate of the gray Honda they placed her in. We knew the condition that Natalee was in. We knew the behavior or the conduct in which they engaged in with Natalee.

And then not only that, Jane, within 72 hours, we knew that their first story was totally fabricated, that within the first 72 hours, I faced a room of 12 -- at least 12 detectives, Aruban and Dutch detectives, and a lead detective, Dennis Jacobs (ph), and they knew after we reviewed video footage from the Holiday Inn casino lobby that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. They knew that those suspects were fabricating a story from day one.

<snipped>

TWITTY: Well, Jane, something that the family knew—and we have to keep reminding everyone—after 72 hours -- 72 hours—we knew definitively that these suspects were not telling the truth. We knew that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. Of course we were becoming frustrated. Who wouldn‘t, at this point? You know, we—and what was so unbelievable about this, is they knew this information and still chose to pursue the two security guards on June the 5th.


Beth Twitty
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
October 21, 2005

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: They never—they never wanted to implicate these three young men.  They never wanted to implicate them from the beginning. And there is a list of reasons, you know, why we know that is true

[Peaches]

There is a little difference between MIP and the average poster that follows this case.  He lives in Aruba, is in contact with part of Natalee’s family and does the ninny ninny boo boo until he gets Robin to publicly change her stance on important issues.  In essence he has made himself a direct part of the story.

People who insinuate themselves into a crime/crime story often end up the subject of the investigation.  Sometimes they end up victims.  Let's talk about who deserves that

Hi Peaches -- How are you feeling?

.... you mean people like Steve Croes?????

Not bad.  A little feistier than yesterday!  That's always good.  

SC is a good example of someone who insinuated himself into the story and then got a tour of the pokey!  I was actually thinking about that drunk that emailed our St. Louis-lou!  

Looked like that crime scene van to me too!

[San]

For those reading,

Given that time can not be turned back and evidence lacks, what solution do you see in bringing those responsible to justice - at this late stage in the game??

Do you think it will take nothing short of a person, somewhat involved, or "in the know" to simply spill the beans, allowing the dots to then be connected, working backwards??

Or will those involved, be brought to justice through lesser charges in an attempt to neutralize complete losses?

Making one of the main players disappear and one of the weaker ones will crack.

[Peaches]

For those reading,

Given that time can not be turned back and evidence lacks, what solution do you see in bringing those responsible to justice - at this late stage in the game??

Do you think it will take nothing short of a person, somewhat involved, or "in the know" to simply spill the beans, allowing the dots to then be connected, working backwards??

Or will those involved, be brought to justice through lesser charges in an attempt to neutralize complete losses?

Making one of the main players disappear and one of the weaker ones will crack.

I agree with the new sheriff, San.  If one disappears, one of those weinies left is bound to talk in order to avoid being the next one to disappear.  

Wouldn't have to be for very long......

just long enough......

[Katysmom]

For those reading,

Given that time can not be turned back and evidence lacks, what solution do you see in bringing those responsible to justice - at this late stage in the game??

Do you think it will take nothing short of a person, somewhat involved, or "in the know" to simply spill the beans, allowing the dots to then be connected, working backwards??

Or will those involved, be brought to justice through lesser charges in an attempt to neutralize complete losses?

If Tim does not find Natalee during this next search, I think it'll basically be done and over.  I don't see anyone being brought to Justice even if they do find her.
As for your 2nd paragraph, I thought I heard one of their spokesmen (shipper, perhaps) say once that they cannot prosecute with just a confession; there has to be physical proof.

[mrs. red]

Someone sent me a link to an interesting blog.  This is a post about the O'Reilly BS, but the rest of the blog is pretty interesting as well.

http://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/07/fox-news-we-report-you-believe.html

I know at least three of the people behind that blog are very aware of this case... and they have had conversations with Red surrounding it.  Very interesting site...

Thanks Easy... another one to add to daily reading!

[Peaches]

I've been a big Steve Huff fan for a long time.  I have read some Gregg Olsen books and several of the others who contribute.  They are all interesting writers.

Besides, In Cold Blog is a great name for a blog.

[mrs. red]

TY for the good wishes guys. I'm hoping I can sleep on the flight out so I'll be able to do some sightseeing once I get there this afternoon. I'll probably be in bed by 9:00 California time, since that will be midnight according to my body.  

Has customs seen all those sock monkeys you have stashed away?  

They're in the checked luggage, and no one pays any attention to that stuff, LOL.

count them... TSA has been tossing luggage at an unusually high rate these days from what I understand... have a great trip!!

[mrs. red]

ldstlou-

MIP6 is stalking you and that reference to Homeland Security is an implied threat. I think you should report him to your ISP/provider, send the email along with the headers to them immediately. What a joke he is, for crying out loud, go find a job MIP6 !

I agree... it is totally an implied threat, "I am watching you..."  that alone screams stalking!

[msmarple]

Just a flyby here - noticed several commented about the van that burned. According to the article, it's white.

[Tamikosmom]

I thought I heard one of their spokesmen (shipper, perhaps) say once that they cannot prosecute with just a confession; there has to be physical proof.

Karin Janssen - Prosecutor
Chicago Sun-Times
July 1, 2005

ORANJESTAD, Aruba -- Aruba's attorney general said Thursday she could prosecute a case in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway even if the Alabama teenager's body is not found.

Caren Janssen also said investigators have found no evidence to suggest that the 18-year-old Holloway, who disappeared May 30, is dead.

"There are no traces or facts to come to the conclusion that Natalee is no longer alive," Attorney General Caren Janssen told the Associated Press in a telephone interview.

"But that doesn't mean we can't prosecute without a body. It's difficult but not impossible."

Three young men remain in custody in Holloway's disappearance, but none has been charged.

Aruban officials have said previously a murder conviction is possible without a body, but the case requires strong evidence such as a confession, reliable statements and forensic evidence of wrongdoing. Aruba is a Dutch protectorate and as such operates under Dutch law.

<snipped>



Arlene Ellis-Schipper - Aruban Attorney
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
July 29, 2005

ROWLANDS: In your opinion, do they have to find more evidence, a body or at least physical evidence in order to continue to hold Joran Van Der Sloot or bring charges here or could they go forward with a no-body prosecution if they have a partial confession or other circumstantial evidence?

ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well, it is possible to convict someone or prosecute someone when a body hasn't been found. That has been done before in the Netherlands and -- but you have to have strong evidence and of course I'm only a bystander. I don't know what they have in file, but they would have to have some forensic evidence and some strong declarations against the suspect.

[BUCKSHOT]

Does anyone think evidence collected, performed test results, etc.. are accessible to new team, KLPD ?

Items to include: hair strands on duct tape, chocolate in Kalpoe car, greenish clothing material, bones found offshore (Venezuela), all statements by those interviewed, etc...

The reason I ask.. is if, and when, the case is "officially closed", will another organization (such as FBI) have the chance to thoroughly review the content of the case to make an independant assessment ?

Would be interesting to see what is in the file and what is missing from the file...

Could enough money be paid to someone to "tell all" about this case. Dompig, Karen Janssen (out of guilt for lack of 100% effort given to NH family, or roadblocks put in her way by ALE), etc... Who would be the best person to approach for this type of scenario ??

How about one of the Kalpoe brothers, or both, brought to USA and given some type of immunity to tell all about their knowledge and/or involvement without fear of prosecution.  ALE does not seem to be interested in prosecution, what recourse against the USA would Aruba have ? At least there would be connection of dots to all the unanswered questions along the way.

[mrs. red]

She certainly did change.

No news on the case could have forced her to move forward with other stuff - I understand this aspect.

However, her stance also seemed to change.  I can not even fathom what could have caused this to happen. It seems fairly obvious that a crime was committed against Natalee.  Even if one doesn't want to assume rape or murder against a person until proven 100% beyond a reasonable doubt, the limited information given to the public seems to indicate death.  And if Natalee died, her body should be able to recovered so that her family can at least have closure and pay her the proper respect with a funeral service.  Where is her body? If disposed, that is a crime at the very minimum.

Does Greta not believe Natalee is dead ? If so, what credible grounds does she have for feeling that way.  Outlandish and unsubstantiated rumors ?? Would not suffice for me.

greta is an attorney who makes a living getting ratings... she is also an attorney that was a defense attorney...

she of course would be inclined to favor one guilty suspect... otherwise what hope does she have of ever gaining an interview with either of the other two...

I think Greta's change begins and ends with ratings...it's not about the person it's about the game...

Listen to Dana's last show where Clint Van Zandt was there discussing Greta's issue with covering the case.... was eye opening for me..

[KarmaRoundUp]

still the "spookiest" cartoon! The "eyes" peering out of the Holiday Inn always intrigued me.

I bet Klaas could doa good edit on that pic putting joran and paul and gang in windows

Hi you all
In the upper left corner of the pic....wonder why that is stratched out?
Looks like a house or a small church/chapel with a few people standing out front of it.

[JuJu]

Fisherman Huts maybe?

[Katysmom]

still the "spookiest" cartoon! The "eyes" peering out of the Holiday Inn always intrigued me.

I bet Klaas could doa good edit on that pic putting joran and paul and gang in windows

Hi you all
In the upper left corner of the pic....wonder why that is stratched out?
Looks like a house or a small church/chapel with a few people standing out front of it.

And looking at the 4 figures by the palms trees always reminded me of an adult (paul) with 3 children (j2k)

[Mere]

Hello Karma....we are looking at that cartoon with the same eyes....I saw the house on the upper left and another figure on the upper right....under the hatch marks....when we first saw the cartoon....many months ago.  I can still see the house....the upper right corner appears to be more heavily marked and the other figure is not able to be seen.

Mere

[Nut44x4]

Considering the close ties to Aruba held by the Toronto Mafia members, I don't think it's outlandish to wonder if DeBerardo talked to some friends and family who had early information about Natalee's disappearance.

Could be as Aruba most definetly has those ties..He seems well traveled also and may know about the club scenes and some things that Aruba has been known for. Also he may have read the AM digital report on june 4th and other news releases in Aruba. He seems talented to me and Artists sometimes are very smart people with inuitive abilities.

Looks like a good time to BUMP this>>
           
This may be off the wall, but what isn't regarding this case!!!
Poster at RU 'DILBART'---possibly Diberardo (I know...off the wall, lol)

thread at RU= (why) KLPD left Aruba
Dilbart Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:28 pm    

Recently I spoke to a KLPD officer who was on 'holiday' in the Netherlands now. He was going to return to Aruba by the end of August. He told that it would be his last 'tour' to the island.

He was not a member of the team that investigated the Holloway case, but mentioned that there was no new evidence and all the (extra) KLPD members were back in the Netherlands since last june and, as far as he knew, were not going to return to Aruba.

He has another appointment before he is going back to Aruba, I'll try to 'interrogate' some more, but although his mouth was wide open, he was quite silent  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dilbart Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:54 pm    

SGC = Sectie Georganiseerde Criminaliteit aka Organized Crime Unit  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Apparently the police have been inundated with calls (according to this RU thread), it is an interesting read.  MORE of Dilbart>>>
Dilbart Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:27 am    

HannieC wrote:
And who is that person who kept calling the police station?

Dilbart Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:27 am    
Starts with the letter L    

HannieC wrote:
 BTW,dilbart. did officer P. called you already? I asked him to call you after I talked with him.

Dilbart wrote:
Yep, called today, he said that he will ask officer M. to call you tomorrow.

[Tamikosmom]

Karin Janssen - Prosecutor
Chicago Sun-Times
July 1, 2005

<snipped>

Caren Janssen also said investigators have found no evidence to suggest that the 18-year-old Holloway, who disappeared May 30, is dead.

"There are no traces or facts to come to the conclusion that Natalee is no longer alive," Attorney General Caren Janssen told the Associated Press in a telephone interview.

Karin Janssen ... are you creating smokescreens?  What about the confession that encompassing the "official" media releases of June 10, 2005?

Janet
++++++++++++++++

Spokesperson for Rudy Croes
FOX NEWS
June 11, 2005

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice (search) told FOX News Natalee Holloway (search), who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body.


Deputy Police Commissioner - Gerold Dompig
CBS NEWS
June 10, 2005

Holloway's family rushed late Friday to an old stone lighthouse beside Arisha beach after Deputy Police Commissioner Gerold Dompig told The Associated Press that one of three young men in custody admitted that "something bad happened" to Holloway and was leading police to the scene of the alleged crime.