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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #665 7/25 - 7/26/2007  (Read 115263 times)
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mrs. red
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« Reply #120 on: July 25, 2007, 09:06:42 PM »

great discussions but I have to get out of here... good night monkeys.

keep the faith... eventually light wins over darkness...
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« Reply #121 on: July 25, 2007, 09:07:13 PM »

Quote from: "shadow"


Can't disagree. but was the coverup regarding just Joran or other people and things going on that the incident coul have brought into the light? Just thinking out loud again. All of your points are very astute and on the money IMO.


The coverup started with Joran because it was put into motion by PVDS.  Joran was, and is, his main concern.  The others were brought into it because they had to be involved.  I do not believe this is PVDS's first attempt at dancing on the line between legal and illegal.  He has a history of working within the law, but manipulating circumstances to his own favor.  He frequents casinos known to launder drug money.  His legal background could provide services that people who break the law successfully need.  I'm speculating here, but I do believe PVDS is a very slimey dude.
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« Reply #122 on: July 25, 2007, 09:08:42 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "Shell"
Quote from: "AZLady"
Shell, we have learned that Paulus did pick up Joran and Natalee at 4 AM at McDonalds.  That was revealed by the Aruban Justice System and the reason why they denied him compensation because they determined he did have contact with Natalee at 4 AM and held some responsibility for his own arrest due to his complicity.


Wow, I must have missed that discussion.


Was this ever confirmed for a fact?  I thought Paulus was in trouble for just saying 4 a.m. then changing it to 11 p.m.  I know there is a rumor that someone from MB saw Paulus at McD at 3-4 a.m. but I have never seen any actual statement about that.  Did this really happen or did Paulus just say it?

.


Anna - I believe it is fact.  It's information that KJ was holding back.  There is a front page post on it..I'll go find it for you.


right this HAD to come out when deciding if he was getting the money.. and then of course he got his ass handed to him in front of the new judicial candidates... OHHHH that was RICH!!!
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« Reply #123 on: July 25, 2007, 09:09:47 PM »

Quote from: "Easywriter"
I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.


It does sound like new cases that are not already known, doesn't it?  More missing and unidentified in Aruba.  Perhaps the body washed up this week is one of them.
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SunFreak2
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« Reply #124 on: July 25, 2007, 09:11:22 PM »

Quote from: "Easywriter"
I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.


That is mind boggling, even tho it shouldn't be.  Shocked  Shocked
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« Reply #125 on: July 25, 2007, 09:13:29 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Oldfart -  you of all people should know that you need more than "BT", more than 2 letters for a search.  If you had typed in BT* you would have found them.  Wink


Klaasend
I did BT* and even B*  and made sure I had it in the "Search for Author" box...
I just did it again and still nothing ... Honest.. Monkey
???
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« Reply #126 on: July 25, 2007, 09:13:55 PM »

For an entire society to be so corrupt and complicit in that corruption, there needs to exist a judiciary as well as a law enforcement that is bought and under the control of the leader of the corruption.  Aruba's government has long been owned by a corrupt regime.  This comes from the top down:  Oduber, Rudy Croes, and other ministers who participate in robbing the Aruban people of the lifestyle they deserve.  Unfortunately, island paradises with poorly educated natives are easily overtaken by organized crime which joins hands with the local government, in this case the Dutch.  This has been going on for generations on Aruba.
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« Reply #127 on: July 25, 2007, 09:15:56 PM »

Quote from: "shadow"
Quote from: "AZLady"
Quote from: "shadow"
Good eveninng Monkeys!

Good discussions going on tonight.
AZLady: I agree with so much of what you said in your last post. But I still have a burning question . . . were those PIMPS worthy of such a huge cover-up? You mentioned video of the assault and I agree, but I beleive if this is the case, there is an entire network that is being protected. IMO the videos being made were not for the PIMPs enjoyment only but more of an enterprise.  Just thinking out loud. Any thoughts?


I think the coverup became so large that it took on a life of its own.  Eventually, it wasn't just a coverup of Natalee's death and disposal, but of the crime and corruption that is woven throughout the island, their justice system, their finances, their government, even their lifestyles.  When Paulus put the coverup in motion, he pulled in Karen Janssen, members of the ALE, the judiciary, as well as friends and family.  

Then, the tourism industry became involved because of the media attention.  They didn't want the seamy, ugly side of Aruba exposed, as it was in the media.  The drug trade, the gambling, the money laundering all become highly visible and condemned features of the Happy Island.  Their mafia ties were bandied about and the Americans saw more than just the white sand of Palm Beach and the hotels and casinos.  They saw the drugs, the poverty, the inept and corrupt government, the ties with organized crime, the lack of respect for children and women, the whole morally depraved way of life on the Happy Island.  Ugly, ugly, ugly.  

This whole thing blew up, right out of their control and onto our TV screens.  It couldn't be denied, so Aruba lied and lied and lied.


Can't disagree. but was the coverup regarding just Joran or other people and things going on that the incident coul have brought into the light? Just thinking out loud again. All of your points are very astute and on the money IMO.

Not just Joran, but other people and things going on, IMHO
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« Reply #128 on: July 25, 2007, 09:16:36 PM »

Quote from: "Easywriter"
I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.


Easy
What is the "Doe Network" and did they list the missing persons ??
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« Reply #129 on: July 25, 2007, 09:17:13 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "Shell"
Quote from: "AZLady"
Shell, we have learned that Paulus did pick up Joran and Natalee at 4 AM at McDonalds.  That was revealed by the Aruban Justice System and the reason why they denied him compensation because they determined he did have contact with Natalee at 4 AM and held some responsibility for his own arrest due to his complicity.


Wow, I must have missed that discussion.


Was this ever confirmed for a fact?  I thought Paulus was in trouble for just saying 4 a.m. then changing it to 11 p.m.  I know there is a rumor that someone from MB saw Paulus at McD at 3-4 a.m. but I have never seen any actual statement about that.  Did this really happen or did Paulus just say it?

.


Anna - I believe it is fact.  It's information that KJ was holding back.  There is a front page post on it..I'll go find it for you.


Link to the front page post:

http://tinyurl.com/27xaf6

PAUL VAN DER SLOOT HAD TWO PERSONAL CONTACTS WITH NATALEE THE NIGHT SHE DISAPPEARED
 
ORANJESTAD(AAN) On the 13th of  February 2007, the Superior Court dictated sentence against Paul van der Sloot in the case that he appealed with regards to the damages that his person as well as his family members asked for, seeing that in the Primary Court (Court of First Instance) Paul van der Sloot alone (no one else in his family) got a reward of 40,000 guilders for damages and 1500 guilders to cover the costs of the lawyers, court clerks, etc.
 
The sentence of the Superior Court fell like a bomb on Paul van der Sloot and his defence attorney because, according to the attorney, the Court made use of informations that do not agree with the truth.
 
The Court dictated that Paul van der Sloot fetched Joran and Natalee at the McDonald Palm Beach branch and took the two of them to the Holiday Inn, according to declarations by witnesses and also informations obtained from a phone tap carried out by the police.
 
Until recently, this key information was not known in the press and apparently only by the Police and Dept. of Justice.
 
The whole case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway gets a different twist now that the information has come out from no less than the Superior Court, and in which mention is made of the declarations of witnesses and a phone tap that show or give an indication that Paul van der Sloot had on two occasions personal contact with Natalee during the night that she disappeared.
 
Mention is made that, according to one or more official reports of the phone tap and also the declaration of Paul van der Sloot himself, that Paul fetched Joran and Natalee at McDonald and took them to the Holiday Inn.
 
Based on this information, the judicial authorities and the police had at that time a justified basis to arrest Paul van der Sloot based on different suspicions.
 
According to the Superior Court, Paul van der Sloot himself is guilty, he made possible or caused (depends how every one interprets the grammar in the sentence of the Court’s) himself to be arrested and that Aruba cannot be held responsible for the damages that he suffered and for which he was demanding damages, which he won in First Instance, but appealed to get more, and now has lost everything.
 
In the sentence there are various points and aspects that brought a different view on the Natalee Holloway case and that in the coming days will be analyzed, but the most important information is the matter of fetching Natalee and Joran at the McDonald, Palm Beach, and also that Paul had on two occasions personal contacts with Natalee on the night that she disappeared.
 
The cardinal question now is: what did the police authorities hear on the tapped phone of Paul van der Sloot, and the next question is hotter still: at what time, under what circumstances, and where did Paul van der Sloot as the father of Joran van der Sloot  have contacts with Natalee Holloway the night she disappeared?
 
If the Superior Court says that in the official report mention is made that Paul van der Sloot fetched Joran and Natalee on the aforementioned night at McDonald Palm Beach, that is the first contact, but where did the second contact take place?

On the night of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, Paul van der Sloot met again with Natalee after he left Joran with Natalee at the Holiday Inn? If that is the case, then where and at what time did Natalee disappear that night?
 
In the declarations of Joran and the Kalpoe brothers there was a heated discussion amongst them, with formal denials as to whether they went with Natalee to the house of Paul van der Sloot on the night of her disappearance.
 
That’s why it is important to get clarity on the two occasions that Paul van der Sloot had personal contacts with Natalee on the night in question and where and under what circumstances they occurred.
 
The lawyer for Paul van der Sloot denies that Paul declared that he fetched Joran and Natalee at McDonald Palm Beach, and that he had contacts with Natalee the night she disappeared, but the Superior Court of Justice based its sentence on the information presented by the interim Attorney General of Aruba.
 
Now, who is lying and who is telling the truth?

I believe there was another article posted by MF that mentioned the 4am time.
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« Reply #130 on: July 25, 2007, 09:17:27 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
Quote from: "shadow"


Can't disagree. but was the coverup regarding just Joran or other people and things going on that the incident coul have brought into the light? Just thinking out loud again. All of your points are very astute and on the money IMO.


The coverup started with Joran because it was put into motion by PVDS.  Joran was, and is, his main concern.  The others were brought into it because they had to be involved.  I do not believe this is PVDS's first attempt at dancing on the line between legal and illegal.  He has a history of working within the law, but manipulating circumstances to his own favor.  He frequents casinos known to launder drug money.  His legal background could provide services that people who break the law successfully need.  I'm speculating here, but I do believe PVDS is a very slimey dude.


Yeah, PVDS and Anita are what I like to refer to as Shady & Vague   Smile
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« Reply #131 on: July 25, 2007, 09:17:46 PM »

Quote from: "oldfart"
Quote from: "Easywriter"
I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.


Easy
What is the "Doe Network" and did they list the missing persons ??


The Doe Network is for people unidentified OF,
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« Reply #132 on: July 25, 2007, 09:18:44 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
For an entire society to be so corrupt and complicit in that corruption, there needs to exist a judiciary as well as a law enforcement that is bought and under the control of the leader of the corruption.  Aruba's government has long been owned by a corrupt regime.  This comes from the top down:  Oduber, Rudy Croes, and other ministers who participate in robbing the Aruban people of the lifestyle they deserve.  Unfortunately, island paradises with poorly educated natives are easily overtaken by organized crime which joins hands with the local government, in this case the Dutch.  This has been going on for generations on Aruba.


Was it Oduber or Croes or someone else that was all pissed off becuase someone questioned the govt.. Or am I thinking of something that did not happen  Confused
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« Reply #133 on: July 25, 2007, 09:18:47 PM »

The island is a hub for the drug traffic from South America to North America.  This is facilitated by a corrupt government and a business environment that supports it.  The casinos, for example, are the perfect businesses to launder the drug money.  The island banks are uncontrolled and the perfect vehicle to move the money from North America to South America.  The government and business leaders love the bribes and payoffs so they look the other way to allow this to continue.  It's their livelihood, after all, because Aruba is so deeply in debt that their meager tourism is not going to fill the tax coffers.  

So, you see, the pieces were all in place for a very effective, very corrupt, coverup of the death of an innocent American girl.  We would probably not even have learned about all of this if the American media had not invaded the island and the blogs picked up the story, causing all of us to research and delve into the island's business and history.
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« Reply #134 on: July 25, 2007, 09:20:12 PM »

I have been reading through the legal doc on BFN

Who is this person and why would they be given Urine samples to FBI in this case



---
Other FBI DOCS

Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh

Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (urine samples)
Date: 06/07/2005
Pages: 1
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer
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« Reply #135 on: July 25, 2007, 09:20:48 PM »

Klaas- the fact that the polis and justice knew about the calls and so DID Paulus, because he had all records relating to his case tells me that he thought that he was going to get away with this aspect of the case.

He didn't have a certain someone to protect him it seems.
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« Reply #136 on: July 25, 2007, 09:20:52 PM »

I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.
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All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
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« Reply #137 on: July 25, 2007, 09:21:31 PM »

Quote from: "Sue"
I have been reading through the legal doc on BFN

Who is this person and why would they be given Urine samples to FBI in this case



---
Other FBI DOCS

Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh

Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (urine samples)
Date: 06/07/2005
Pages: 1
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer


I don't think  anyone knows.  She may have been someone that came forward saying she thought she'd been drugged?  We really don't know.
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« Reply #138 on: July 25, 2007, 09:22:37 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Sue"
I have been reading through the legal doc on BFN

Who is this person and why would they be given Urine samples to FBI in this case



---
Other FBI DOCS

Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh

Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (urine samples)
Date: 06/07/2005
Pages: 1
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer


I don't think  anyone knows.  She may have been someone that came forward saying she thought she'd been drugged?  We really don't know.



that is mighty strange if you ask me, But everything is strange about this case
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« Reply #139 on: July 25, 2007, 09:22:54 PM »

Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


It's my understanding that PVDS's phone was tapped and they intercepted him saying that he picked up Joran and Natalee at 4am.  Doesn't make it true.

Edited to add:  Could have been a partial truth.  He could have picked up Joran and a dead Natalee.
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