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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #665 7/25 - 7/26/2007  (Read 117238 times)
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AZLady
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« Reply #140 on: July 25, 2007, 09:23:26 PM »

How strange.  I find she gave them WINE SAMPLES!?

G€˘ Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh
G€˘ Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (wine samples)

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=678&sid=b2c7778fe081babad1e2d5eefa92b888

Wonder which one is right?   Laughing
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Easywriter
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« Reply #141 on: July 25, 2007, 09:23:44 PM »

Quote from: "oldfart"
Quote from: "Easywriter"
I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.


Easy
What is the "Doe Network" and did they list the missing persons ??


http://doenetwork.org/
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Buckeye
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« Reply #142 on: July 25, 2007, 09:23:55 PM »

Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


What if she was propped up between the two of them??
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klaasend
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« Reply #143 on: July 25, 2007, 09:24:16 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
How strange.  I find she gave them WINE SAMPLES!?

G€˘ Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh
G€˘ Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (wine samples)

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=678&sid=b2c7778fe081babad1e2d5eefa92b888

Wonder which one is right?   Laughing


Translation error - it is urine
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AZLady
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« Reply #144 on: July 25, 2007, 09:25:25 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "AZLady"
How strange.  I find she gave them WINE SAMPLES!?

G€˘ Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh
G€˘ Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (wine samples)

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=678&sid=b2c7778fe081babad1e2d5eefa92b888

Wonder which one is right?   Laughing


Translation error - it is urine


ha ha ha  Laughing
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AZLady
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« Reply #145 on: July 25, 2007, 09:26:03 PM »

Just strikes me funny that urine can be mistranslated to "wine."   Laughing
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shadow
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« Reply #146 on: July 25, 2007, 09:26:51 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
For an entire society to be so corrupt and complicit in that corruption, there needs to exist a judiciary as well as a law enforcement that is bought and under the control of the leader of the corruption.  Aruba's government has long been owned by a corrupt regime.  This comes from the top down:  Oduber, Rudy Croes, and other ministers who participate in robbing the Aruban people of the lifestyle they deserve.  Unfortunately, island paradises with poorly educated natives are easily overtaken by organized crime which joins hands with the local government, in this case the Dutch.  This has been going on for generations on Aruba.


You are absolutely right.
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« Reply #147 on: July 25, 2007, 09:27:26 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
Just strikes me funny that urine can be mistranslated to "wine."   Laughing

Oldfart used a program that reads PDF (uncopyable)  files and turns it into regular text.  There are some errors in the transition between PDF and text, lol  Laughing
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« Reply #148 on: July 25, 2007, 09:28:07 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
For an entire society to be so corrupt and complicit in that corruption, there needs to exist a judiciary as well as a law enforcement that is bought and under the control of the leader of the corruption.  Aruba's government has long been owned by a corrupt regime.  This comes from the top down:  Oduber, Rudy Croes, and other ministers who participate in robbing the Aruban people of the lifestyle they deserve.  Unfortunately, island paradises with poorly educated natives are easily overtaken by organized crime which joins hands with the local government, in this case the Dutch.  This has been going on for generations on Aruba.


This is what I"ve been trying to say for so long, you said it well AZ. How does a whole country, a whole society - toe the line of everyday drug infestation, murder, rampant porn - how do the decent people of Aruba tolerate this.
It's truly a ceaspool of filth and crime, and the average people just exitst.
Poor Aruba, they'll forever be owned by Natalee.  Even the ugly misfits will always think Natalee when they hear Aruba.
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AZLady
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« Reply #149 on: July 25, 2007, 09:29:38 PM »

Quote from: "Buckeye"
Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


What if she was propped up between the two of them??


Likely.  She may have been barely conscious.  Remember, I think it was about 3 AM or so that Paulus (or someone) was searching the VDS computer for drug information.  Was she unconscious then and they suspected overdose?  Did Paulus take Joran and an unconscious Natalee somewhere (Lorenzo's?) and then tell someone he picked them up at McDonalds to cover his tracks?
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« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2007, 09:31:19 PM »

Quote from: "Rob"
Quote from: "oldfart"
Quote from: "Easywriter"
I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.


Easy
What is the "Doe Network" and did they list the missing persons ??


The Doe Network is for people unidentified OF,


Rob  being real dumb here  but if people are missing how can they be unidentified ??  If you have a body that cannot be identified  then that to me would be unidentified  that they attempt to match to missing person's reports  Confused
Sorry ... cornfused as usual
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« Reply #151 on: July 25, 2007, 09:32:13 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


It's my understanding that PVDS's phone was tapped and they intercepted him saying that he picked up Joran and Natalee at 4am.  Doesn't make it true.

Edited to add:  Could have been a partial truth.  He could have picked up Joran and a dead Natalee.


I have wondered the same thing, but how did Joran get to MCD's with a dead Natalee? Who took him if he didn't have a car? I may have forgotten facts that would explain this . . . any ideas??
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AZLady
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« Reply #152 on: July 25, 2007, 09:34:09 PM »

Quote from: "IndyDan"
Quote from: "AZLady"
For an entire society to be so corrupt and complicit in that corruption, there needs to exist a judiciary as well as a law enforcement that is bought and under the control of the leader of the corruption.  Aruba's government has long been owned by a corrupt regime.  This comes from the top down:  Oduber, Rudy Croes, and other ministers who participate in robbing the Aruban people of the lifestyle they deserve.  Unfortunately, island paradises with poorly educated natives are easily overtaken by organized crime which joins hands with the local government, in this case the Dutch.  This has been going on for generations on Aruba.


This is what I"ve been trying to say for so long, you said it well AZ. How does a whole country, a whole society - toe the line of everyday drug infestation, murder, rampant porn - how do the decent people of Aruba tolerate this.
It's truly a ceaspool of filth and crime, and the average people just exitst.
Poor Aruba, they'll forever be owned by Natalee.  Even the ugly misfits will always think Natalee when they hear Aruba.


Until Natalee's disappearance, we didn't even know where Aruba was or what went on there.  However, organized crime and the drug trade took over this island a long time ago.  The TNI articles detail the history of Aruba's mafia ties.  While the mafia families have made a visible exit, the crime and corruption continues in a more modern manner.  This is still organized crime, managed long distance with digital money laundering, highly lucrative porn businesses, rampant drug trafficking and online and casino gambling.  The decent people of Aruba?  I think they left a long time ago or they have learned to adapt.
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SunFreak2
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« Reply #153 on: July 25, 2007, 09:34:36 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
Quote from: "Buckeye"
Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


What if she was propped up between the two of them??


Likely.  She may have been barely conscious.  Remember, I think it was about 3 AM or so that Paulus (or someone) was searching the VDS computer for drug information.  Was she unconscious then and they suspected overdose?  Did Paulus take Joran and an unconscious Natalee somewhere (Lorenzo's?) and then tell someone he picked them up at McDonalds to cover his tracks?


Wasn't Paulus searching the web for drugs & alcohol on that Monday night right before 8 pm when he was supposed to be taking or picking up Joran from Racqyuet Club  who he knew or did not know was out gambling that Monday night?
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Rob
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« Reply #154 on: July 25, 2007, 09:38:18 PM »

Quote from: "oldfart"
Quote from: "Rob"
Quote from: "oldfart"
Quote from: "Easywriter"
I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.


Easy
What is the "Doe Network" and did they list the missing persons ??


The Doe Network is for people unidentified OF,


Rob  being real dumb here  but if people are missing how can they be unidentified ??  If you have a body that cannot be identified  then that to me would be unidentified  that they attempt to match to missing person's reports  Confused
Sorry ... cornfused as usual


hold on... I have a post from a friend that does exactly that... I'll get it..
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« Reply #155 on: July 25, 2007, 09:38:22 PM »

Quote from: "shadow"
Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


It's my understanding that PVDS's phone was tapped and they intercepted him saying that he picked up Joran and Natalee at 4am.  Doesn't make it true.

Edited to add:  Could have been a partial truth.  He could have picked up Joran and a dead Natalee.


I have wondered the same thing, but how did Joran get to MCD's with a dead Natalee? Who took him if he didn't have a car? I may have forgotten facts that would explain this . . . any ideas??


Just because PVDS said McDonalds does not make it true.  McDonald is not far from the hotels and the Fisherman's Huts.  PVDS could have said McDonalds because he thinks someone spotted him in that area.  McDonalds itself would have been closed.
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Buckeye
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« Reply #156 on: July 25, 2007, 09:38:30 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
Quote from: "Buckeye"
Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


What if she was propped up between the two of them??


Likely.  She may have been barely conscious.  Remember, I think it was about 3 AM or so that Paulus (or someone) was searching the VDS computer for drug information.  Was she unconscious then and they suspected overdose?  Did Paulus take Joran and an unconscious Natalee somewhere (Lorenzo's?) and then tell someone he picked them up at McDonalds to cover his tracks?


I don't think that search was until the next night.  But, I believe the computer times had been dinged  and so I don't know what to think.

To add to your scenario:  I don't know if they drove around first or in the middle or when.  I believe the Kalpo car was in motion and the gardner saw Joran and others.  Natalee may have been originally hurt by the rocks or Arashi.  She was taken to VDS and I'm thinking the porn was put on as backdrop film during attack at house. I still believe she was hurt trying to get through the gate (after attempting to get a call off).  The talk around the pool was that night because that is where it happened. IMO
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shadow
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« Reply #157 on: July 25, 2007, 09:39:24 PM »

Quote from: "SunFreak2"
Quote from: "AZLady"
Quote from: "Buckeye"
Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


What if she was propped up between the two of them??


Likely.  She may have been barely conscious.  Remember, I think it was about 3 AM or so that Paulus (or someone) was searching the VDS computer for drug information.  Was she unconscious then and they suspected overdose?  Did Paulus take Joran and an unconscious Natalee somewhere (Lorenzo's?) and then tell someone he picked them up at McDonalds to cover his tracks?


Wasn't Paulus searching the web for drugs & alcohol on that Monday night right before 8 pm when he was supposed to be taking or picking up Joran from Racqyuet Club  who he knew or did not know was out gambling that Monday night?


I distinctly remember that it was stated or known that someone at the VDS home was researching the topic of overdose online, but I don't know the time. Was it confirmed that it was PVDS? IMO the time of the search is telling and adds to the timeline. Does anyone know the specifics of the overdose information being read online?
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« Reply #158 on: July 25, 2007, 09:39:42 PM »

Quote from: "Buckeye"
Quote from: "Anna"
I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.


What if she was propped up between the two of them??


very well could have been. there was a case in ME where the murderer drove through burger king with the person he murdered in the passenger seat, the drive thru camera is what caught him eventually...
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« Reply #159 on: July 25, 2007, 09:40:53 PM »

MARY X MAKES A DIFFERENCE
Over the last two years I have been blessed to meet some amazing people. People who put aside their own lives in the hopes of helping others.

When Natalee Holloway became a CRIME VICTIM on Aruba many people used their technology skills to help the Holloway's and the Twitty's. Most of us had little knowledge of just how vast the internet is and learned those skills on the fly. We collectively gathered the information on the suspects and found a tremendous amount of info in her case.

Few people are as skilled as Grande and Chicago_510. In fact, their 'KUNG-FU' is very powerful.

Did you know there is another way to use this technology?

TECHNOCRIMINOLOGY 201.

MARY X OPENS PANDORA'S BOX IN THE HOPES OF HELPING GRIEVING FAMILIES.

MARY X'S STORY.

I am a mom and my youngest graduates this year. A few years back he wanted a computer and I asked him to show me the basics and he did. I managed to get around from site to site and landed on a few missing persons sites and some of the story's struck me because it must be so hard for the people who have a missing child or loved one just to get up each day. I don't think I could do it.

So I decided to try and match some of the unidentified people in morgues to those missing people because I also believe that when people are born they are given names by someone who loves them and when the person dies it should be that they die with the same names given them at birth and be put to rest by their family's and not listed as a John or Jane Doe in a freezer someplace-So that would be the WHY part. Now on to the HOW part.

I bop around from morgue to morgue on the internet and some will list clothing worn at the time or list physical markings. Others will show actual photos and that is the HOW I do it part.

I have contacted a few coroners in different parts of the country and have also contacted some police departments and made a few friends, but I have run into a few also that I don't think could find themselves or some that I believe wear there uniforms to bed because they love their badge so much. I have met a few that are
thankful for the help and are willing to listen to a theory regardless of how far fetched it may sound, those are the ones that get solved.

WHAT MOTIVATES ME?

The fact there are so many people missing loved ones that have no answers as to why this happened and where there loved ones are.

These families of "the missing" wake up every day and go to bed each night with those same questions on there minds and from the tv shows I have watched and the many articles I have read each day is the same over and over again because with out answers they can not move on.

One mother put it this way, it's like each day is a repeat of the day it happened she also added that not knowing is the hardest part because you can't even think of closure until you have an answer. It is family's and parents that motivate me to
find these people.

I look in the areas that they don't want to think about - morgues. I try to see if I can match clothing, dates, birthmarks, prior surgeries, prior broken bones, breast enlargements. Anything that may single out a victim of crime or accident victim to those of the people reported missing.

I do it to help these families find closure so they can begin the healing process and not have to wake up each day wondering will today be the day police get a lead? Will today be the day he or she comes home? Each night they go to bed wondering will tomorrow be the day I get answers?

Some people last saw there loved one so long ago they have given up hope of any closure at all and just go on existing in the world. They have had birthdays and holidays go by that are only enjoyed by a memory they have of the last one spent together at a happier time when they were not in this nightmare and unfortunately that is the way some will continue to live.

I believe in miracles and the fact that some have come home alive and healthy after years of being missing is proof that miracles do exist, but sadly not everyone gets one. But still, knowing that miracles do happen should help them to continue to pray and hope that maybe it will happen for them to. I was raised to love people-all people, not just the ones of my same skin color or faith. I was raised to treat people the way I would like to be treated. I was raised to believe that God not only judges you for your sins but he also judges you for what you do for others. It is those values that make finding missing people my PASSION.

If you have or know someone that is missing a loved one it is very important that dental records are made available and that DNA (preferably from parents) is entered into Codis.

To help you understand the importance of these 2 facts I am including a link explaining the use of dental information in missing persons and unidentified body cases. ABFO Guidelines for the Use of Dental Information in Missing Person and Unidentified Body Cases

For more information on helping to find the missing or identifying unidentified remains see THE DOE NEWTORK This is an excellent site with many resources.



Mary, thank you so much for helping the Families of those MISSING to get the conclusion they all seek. It is people like you that make the world go round. Thank you also for sharing your Passion and giving us all a new understanding of how the Internet can be a tool of HELP.

Please stay tuned for more from Mary X as she makes the discoveries that make a difference.
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