Lively Case Discussion #665 7/25 - 7/26/2007

[bleachedblack]

I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.

It's my understanding that PVDS's phone was tapped and they intercepted him saying that he picked up Joran and Natalee at 4am.  Doesn't make it true.

Edited to add:  Could have been a partial truth.  He could have picked up Joran and a dead Natalee.

I have wondered the same thing, but how did Joran get to MCD's with a dead Natalee? Who took him if he didn't have a car? I may have forgotten facts that would explain this . . . any ideas??

....it couldn't have been mcDonalds, had to have been somewhere close.

[oldfart]

I have been reading through the legal doc on BFN

Who is this person and why would they be given Urine samples to FBI in this case



---
Other FBI DOCS

Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh

Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (urine samples)
Date: 06/07/2005
Pages: 1
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer

I don't think  anyone knows.  She may have been someone that came forward saying she thought she'd been drugged?  We really don't know.

I just found this in there too

File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer/Initiaton Nurse Marie 0' Brain
Name/Title/Description: Interview with Tracey Allan
Date: 06/09/2005
Pages: 1

Same place Huntington NY..  just seems odd .. to me

[shadow]

I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.

It's my understanding that PVDS's phone was tapped and they intercepted him saying that he picked up Joran and Natalee at 4am.  Doesn't make it true.

Edited to add:  Could have been a partial truth.  He could have picked up Joran and a dead Natalee.

I have wondered the same thing, but how did Joran get to MCD's with a dead Natalee? Who took him if he didn't have a car? I may have forgotten facts that would explain this . . . any ideas??

Just because PVDS said McDonalds does not make it true.  McDonald is not far from the hotels and the Fisherman's Huts.  PVDS could have said McDonalds because he thinks someone spotted him in that area.  McDonalds itself would have been closed.

Thanks Klass! . . . it makes more sense that it was another cover story, especially considering they were closed. I wasn't sure if MCD's drive-thrus were open 24 hrs in Aruba like some in the US.

[oldfart]

How strange.  I find she gave them WINE SAMPLES!?

G€¢ Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh
G€¢ Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (wine samples)

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=678&sid=b2c7778fe081babad1e2d5eefa92b888

Wonder which one is right?  

AzLady
I checked the scanned PDF   Urine is correct...
What can I say the PDF  converter made some mistakes  and missed in the proofing   Sorry

[klaasend]

I have been reading through the legal doc on BFN

Who is this person and why would they be given Urine samples to FBI in this case



---
Other FBI DOCS

Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh

Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (urine samples)
Date: 06/07/2005
Pages: 1
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer

I don't think  anyone knows.  She may have been someone that came forward saying she thought she'd been drugged?  We really don't know.

I just found this in there too

File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer/Initiaton Nurse Marie 0' Brain
Name/Title/Description: Interview with Tracey Allan
Date: 06/09/2005
Pages: 1

Same place Huntington NY..  just seems odd .. to me

I believe the location is the location of the FBI office maybe?

[shadow]

I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.

It's my understanding that PVDS's phone was tapped and they intercepted him saying that he picked up Joran and Natalee at 4am.  Doesn't make it true.

Edited to add:  Could have been a partial truth.  He could have picked up Joran and a dead Natalee.

I have wondered the same thing, but how did Joran get to MCD's with a dead Natalee? Who took him if he didn't have a car? I may have forgotten facts that would explain this . . . any ideas??

....it couldn't have been mcDonalds, had to have been somewhere close.

So, does anyone know what is close to that MCDs that could have been where they were going?

[oldfart]

I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.

Easy
What is the "Doe Network" and did they list the missing persons ??

http://doenetwork.org/

thanks Easy

[klaasend]

Shadow - I'm pretty certain McDonalds closes at 11pm in Aruba

[Anna]

I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.

It's my understanding that PVDS's phone was tapped and they intercepted him saying that he picked up Joran and Natalee at 4am.  Doesn't make it true.

Edited to add:  Could have been a partial truth.  He could have picked up Joran and a dead Natalee.

I am reading that article over and over trying to internalize this.  So OK, he SAID this and so did witnesses but they could have been lying.  IMO, I have never thought Natalee survived to see daylight and have to wonder if she was still alive at 4 a.m.  

So he and his wire taps which could also be lies are just saying this but since it was his own claim, he gets no $$$.  Have to wonder what he was thinking as Joran was claiming to have already walked home, etc. by them  Guess they just didn't have their stories straight yet.

But to our knowledge, no one actually saw them there or ever saw Natalee after she got into the car with the J2K, right?

[msmarple]

I have been reading through the legal doc on BFN

Who is this person and why would they be given Urine samples to FBI in this case



---
Other FBI DOCS

Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh

Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (urine samples)
Date: 06/07/2005
Pages: 1
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer

Sue - I have a scenario in mind about this (which someone else may have posted by now). If I'm not mistaken, this person also had a bottle of wine, possibly a partial bottle, that she brought along for testing. (I'm assuming female.) I think she returned home from Aruba, thought she had been drugged on the last night she was there, and went straight to the FBI (or maybe via local police dept.). This is something she might not have done had she not heard about the Holloway case.

I INFER this from the same statements you've been reading. I'm pretty sure there was a lab test for urine as well as the contents of a wine bottle, and I think she requested it.

[shadow]

I have been reading through the legal doc on BFN

Who is this person and why would they be given Urine samples to FBI in this case



---
Other FBI DOCS

Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh

Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (urine samples)
Date: 06/07/2005
Pages: 1
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer

I don't think  anyone knows.  She may have been someone that came forward saying she thought she'd been drugged?  We really don't know.

I just found this in there too

File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer/Initiaton Nurse Marie 0' Brain
Name/Title/Description: Interview with Tracey Allan
Date: 06/09/2005
Pages: 1

Same place Huntington NY..  just seems odd .. to me

I know there was some mention or rumor at some time that the VDS had family or property in the US. Can anyone confirm this and if so, is it in this area of NY?? Just wondering. Then again, could have been two friends who were in Aruba together. Very curious . . . Anyone know??

[Buckeye]

shadow

When Joran was at the HI, he was picked up at McDonalds.  Maybe it's easier for cars to get in and out.  Maybe the casino workers (Guido) have to park their cars there.  Maybe some people were taking a walk and saw them drive by or pull in because someone was sick to their stomach.  Who knows.

[mrs. red]

Thank You Ms Marple... that makes perfect sense.

[shadow]

Shadow - I'm pretty certain McDonalds closes at 11pm in Aruba

Thanks Klass!

[mrs. red]

Maybe we should get dana to do an interview with the doe network people?  I think that would be interesting...

[Shell]

Thank You Ms Marple... that makes perfect sense.

Are you saying someone traveled from Aruba to the states with a partial bottle of wine in their posession?

[oldfart]

Pant... whew.. Pant
I think I'm caught up for the moment
? Who is Tracy Allen

? has / could some one please try a search for postsers with a name that is B*  and let me know if you have any results  
TIA

[Lala'sMom]

How strange.  I find she gave them WINE SAMPLES!?

G€¢ Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh
G€¢ Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (wine samples)

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=678&sid=b2c7778fe081babad1e2d5eefa92b888

Wonder which one is right?  

I promise not to make a Shango reference on this one...I think I promise.  

[klaasend]

McDonalds is near the Holiday Inn

[oldfart]

Pant... whew.. Pant
I think I'm caught up for the moment
? Who is Tracy Allen

? has / could some one please try a search for postsers with a name that is B*  and let me know if you have any results  
TIA

Sorry should have been Tracy Allan