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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #665 7/25 - 7/26/2007  (Read 116278 times)
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Mere
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« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2007, 08:12:21 PM »

Klaas....will all of the archives be available when the new forum opens?

....and thank you.... Very Happy
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« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2007, 08:14:15 PM »

Quote from: "Mere"
Klaas....will all of the archives be available when the new forum opens?

....and thank you.... Very Happy


I don't know for sure what Dugga will have been able to restore.  I think it's going to be an ongoing process.

By the way, you seem to have lost "ME", LOLOL  Laughing
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BUCKSHOT
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« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2007, 08:14:48 PM »

This is a repost. Give me your thoughts on this possible scenario........

It boggles my mind to think through play-by-play scenarios of how the fateful night unfolded. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

Once NH gave Joran confirmation that she may leave with him after bar, this would have been an appropriate time for Joran to set up a spiked drink for her to drink. (otherwise, why have her drink spiked if there wasn't a guarantee that NH would even leave with him after the bar closed and waste the drug and/or money for the drugged drink)

They (J2K) probably did as expected and drove around allowing time for the drug to take effect on her already intoxicated body. Small talk, adolescent petting (J and NH) in back seat of car. Deepak pisses on side of road. NH may have realized at this point that trouble had befallen her but did not have energy, logical thinking, or means to get out of situation.

The three realized that their own homes were not the place to go. Joran would not take Nat to his own home with sleeping family, and Kalpoes surely would not go back to Nadira and their home. Somewhere abandoned would serve the purpose here. Lighthouse area would work. I wonder about lighting to see what was going on. Why would they get it on inside car with friends present, although not out of the question. ( I am open to ideas as to the scene of the alleged rape - where were condoms found ?? ) While tourists may go to lighthouse area at this time of night, a native would know to go slightly beyond the touristy area where they would be totally undetectable. Nat, knowing her fate, probably had her blood boiling way beyond control, especially, if drugs in system. She kicked and fought her best - assaulted by J2K while raped and eventually went into cardiac arrest, dying at the hands of J2K. (Unknown(s) – (a) who was in alleged white trailing car - Guido ??, (b) is this when a call was attempted?)

Heading back to high-rise area as needed to be seen for alibi purposes, stopped along the way, J2K + 1 guest player, sat and talked to think of plan. This could be where spotted by guy walking to work. In the car sat J2K + guest – (Nat either left at site of rape or in trunk) Open to ideas as to (a)1 guest or multiple guests(plural), (b) 2nd car vs only K2 car, (c) was freddy- the cameraman here or not. I TEND TO THINK TOO MANY PEOPLE RUIN A SECRET SIDING WITH FEWER PEOPLE PRESENT - NO GUESTS OR ONLY 1 GUEST

At this point, it became time to involve Daddy - Paulus. Paulus or his children got on websites - porn, soccer, etc.., for a possible alibi.. He, at this time, would have advised the boys to text each other as if home, also telling the K bros to wash their car thoroughly, not speak, and meet back in AM at Sloot house for further game plan. Paulus comes to pick up Joran and dead NH at this point @ McD??? 4AM.

Paulus and Joran likely drove off into the night carrying out disposal plan. (no idea where they went) to LVR? - Sloot house? No clue here.

The meeting at the Sloot house early afternoon time. Paulus had a chance to work the phone early AM for favors and get others involvement. Joran = I am not sold that he attended school (if he did, he left early or was enabled to go home) SK definitely did not attend school, DK afternoon work (or no work.)

The rest is history as other high powered, intelligently evil thinkers helped collaborate a corrupted and colluded plan from there and executed as needed.

The Twittys did make them sweat it, tough, as their arrival was fast and furious.

Just thinking out loud... any additions or disagreements to this timeline of events are welcome.  Another scenario that crosses my mind is a small pool party at the Sloot house. This would have made things very covenient for all.

I feel, somewhat, that there were not many people involved in the actual crime.  Their help was required later on and each has limited information.  TOO MANY PEOPLE RUIN A SECRET.

I also feel NH body may have been destroyed on land as it would give the perpetrators 100% control and leave no possibility in the future for discovery.
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BUCKSHOT
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« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2007, 08:16:25 PM »

Is it fact or rumor that clothes of NH were found at LVR?

If fact, any proof to back it up?

If rumor, any source of the rumor?

Clothes of NH at LVR house would certainly allow for further investigation into LVR's involvement.

I am still curious as to status of LVR and his detention status - seems quiet on the front, unlike J2K's detentions, extensions, etc..

Anyone seen the sporter lately ? Or K2 – wonder what they are up to these days………
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« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2007, 08:19:38 PM »

BUCKSHOT - all very possible
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« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2007, 08:21:54 PM »

Quote from: "BUCKSHOT"
Is it fact or rumor that clothes of NH were found at LVR?

If fact, any proof to back it up? Rumor

If rumor, any source of the rumor? Americaninaruba & Arubagirl

Clothes of NH at LVR house would certainly allow for further investigation into LVR's involvement.

I am still curious as to status of LVR and his detention status - seems quiet on the front, unlike J2K's detentions, extensions, etc..  STILL DETAINED
Anyone seen the sporter lately ? Or K2 – wonder what they are up to these days………


My answers in red.  No sightings of JK2 at all that I'm aware of.
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mrs. red
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« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2007, 08:24:21 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "mrs. red"
at that point did we know that julia was one of the bondias?

I know a lot of people caught on quick... but a lot of us didn't know she was julia... not at first anyway.


Bondia wasn't posting at SM yet at that point.  I would say Red knew who Bondia was probably from the beginning, or soon after they started posting.


I am sure he did too... and unfortunately at first, he thought she did want to help. Hindsight is 20/20 - and I don't think he knew until toward the end that she had multiple personalities.

Isgigs.. I didn't know that there were more than one... I only knew because of Red... and several people emailed me at the time that they strongly suspected, and thanks to them we saw the differences in posting and found that there were more than one.
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Shell
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« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2007, 08:29:02 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
BUCKSHOT - all very possible


Agreed...I am sure you are right on in a lot of areas, but I can't see J at McD's being picked up by Paulus with a dead body in tow.
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« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2007, 08:30:16 PM »

Quote from: "BUCKSHOT"
This is a repost. Give me your thoughts on this possible scenario........

It boggles my mind to think through play-by-play scenarios of how the fateful night unfolded. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

Once NH gave Joran confirmation that she may leave with him after bar, this would have been an appropriate time for Joran to set up a spiked drink for her to drink. (otherwise, why have her drink spiked if there wasn't a guarantee that NH would even leave with him after the bar closed and waste the drug and/or money for the drugged drink)

First, I do not believe Natalee ever agreed to leave C&C's with Joran.  One classmate saw her leaving C&C's walking next to Joran, but not touching him or acting like she was with him.  Natalee, at that point, said she was going back to the HI with the group of MB students walking in front of her.  Another classmate reported that he was seated at an upstairs bar across the street from C&C's about 1:15 am and saw Natalee being escorted out of C&C's by Deepak, with him holding her by the elbow.  It makes sense that Natalee probably went back to C&C's looking for friends.  When Joran couldn't get her to the car, Deepak was sent back to pose as a taxi driver and bring her to the car.  She may have been highly disoriented by this time.  Regardless, no evidence exists that Natalee intended to leave with Joran.  In fact, she stated that she was going back to the HI with the MB students.

Quote from: "BUCKSHOT"
They (J2K) probably did as expected and drove around allowing time for the drug to take effect on her already intoxicated body. Small talk, adolescent petting (J and NH) in back seat of car. Deepak pisses on side of road. NH may have realized at this point that trouble had befallen her but did not have energy, logical thinking, or means to get out of situation.

I agree.


Quote from: "BUCKSHOT"

The three realized that their own homes were not the place to go. Joran would not take Nat to his own home with sleeping family, and Kalpoes surely would not go back to Nadira and their home. Somewhere abandoned would serve the purpose here. Lighthouse area would work. I wonder about lighting to see what was going on. Why would they get it on inside car with friends present, although not out of the question. ( I am open to ideas as to the scene of the alleged rape - where were condoms found ?? ) While tourists may go to lighthouse area at this time of night, a native would know to go slightly beyond the touristy area where they would be totally undetectable. Nat, knowing her fate, probably had her blood boiling way beyond control, especially, if drugs in system. She kicked and fought her best - assaulted by J2K while raped and eventually went into cardiac arrest, dying at the hands of J2K. (Unknown(s) – (a) who was in alleged white trailing car - Guido ??, (b) is this when a call was attempted?)

I disagree.  I do believe they took her to Joran's apartment at the VSD home.  First, I do not believe Anita and the other two sons were home.  Second, this is the logical place to take her.  It is private and familiar to them.  I do believe this apartment was used as a meeting place frequently.  There is talk that all Joran's friends parked on the other side of the wall and just jumped the wall to enter his apartment.  Most likely others were at the apartment--Guido, Freddy, maybe others.  I do think Natalee was gang raped and violently assaulted.  She was beaten, probably by Joran.  Guido was charged with battery.  I do believe they also videotaped the rape and assault.  I believe Natalee died from their violent attack.

Quote from: "BUCKSHOT"

Heading back to high-rise area as needed to be seen for alibi purposes, stopped along the way, J2K + 1 guest player, sat and talked to think of plan. This could be where spotted by guy walking to work. In the car sat J2K + guest – (Nat either left at site of rape or in trunk) Open to ideas as to (a)1 guest or multiple guests(plural), (b) 2nd car vs only K2 car, (c) was freddy- the cameraman here or not. I TEND TO THINK TOO MANY PEOPLE RUIN A SECRET SIDING WITH FEWER PEOPLE PRESENT - NO GUESTS OR ONLY 1 GUEST

At this point, it became time to involve Daddy - Paulus. Paulus or his children got on websites - porn, soccer, etc.., for a possible alibi.. He, at this time, would have advised the boys to text each other as if home, also telling the K bros to wash their car thoroughly, not speak, and meet back in AM at Sloot house for further game plan. Paulus comes to pick up Joran and dead NH at this point @ McD??? 4AM.

Paulus and Joran likely drove off into the night carrying out disposal plan. (no idea where they went) to LVR? - Sloot house? No clue here.

The meeting at the Sloot house early afternoon time. Paulus had a chance to work the phone early AM for favors and get others involvement. Joran = I am not sold that he attended school (if he did, he left early or was enabled to go home) SK definitely did not attend school, DK afternoon work (or no work.)

The rest is history as other high powered, intelligently evil thinkers helped collaborate a corrupted and colluded plan from there and executed as needed.

The Twittys did make them sweat it, tough, as their arrival was fast and furious.

Just thinking out loud... any additions or disagreements to this timeline of events are welcome.  Another scenario that crosses my mind is a small pool party at the Sloot house. This would have made things very covenient for all.

I feel, somewhat, that there were not many people involved in the actual crime.  Their help was required later on and each has limited information.  TOO MANY PEOPLE RUIN A SECRET.

I also feel NH body may have been destroyed on land as it would give the perpetrators 100% control and leave no possibility in the future for discovery.


After Natalee died, Paulus was called in to help cover up the crime.  I think it's likely that he called Lorenzo, searching for help for an overdose or how to hide the body.  The details are hard to decipher.  I think we agree that Joran, the 2K's, Guido, Freddy, possibly Koen were involved, maybe GVC in the rape and death of Natalee.  Paulus was called in afterward to coverup and then others like Lorenzo also helped.
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BRING NATALEE HOME
mrs. red
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« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2007, 08:33:29 PM »

Buckshot... I also want to add to your theory.  Remember that jk2 went to the bar only 30 minutes before closing...so they had to work quickly.  I think that there wasn't time for Natalee to agree to go with him... I think they separated her from the group... and that they convinced her to go back to the hotel where Joran was supposedly staying...


Rob... did your friend know who the other bondia's were?  I would love to know that for a fact...
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« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2007, 08:35:32 PM »

Quote from: "mrs. red"
Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "mrs. red"
at that point did we know that julia was one of the bondias?

I know a lot of people caught on quick... but a lot of us didn't know she was julia... not at first anyway.


Bondia wasn't posting at SM yet at that point.  I would say Red knew who Bondia was probably from the beginning, or soon after they started posting.


I am sure he did too... and unfortunately at first, he thought she did want to help. Hindsight is 20/20 - and I don't think he knew until toward the end that she had multiple personalities.

Isgigs.. I didn't know that there were more than one... I only knew because of Red... and several people emailed me at the time that they strongly suspected, and thanks to them we saw the differences in posting and found that there were more than one.


Exactly
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« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2007, 08:38:00 PM »

I am so saddened to hear from GEL that both her brother and sister were in a terrible car accident. There is a post in the prayer thread .

Here is a link to light a candle.........group is SM.

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=sm
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« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2007, 08:40:56 PM »

I will never forget her chastizing Flying Mermaid for saying that a person who was a chef on the island was trying to move to Florida.

She stated very emphatically that everyone knew everyone else's business and that there were no secrets on the island and that FM was endangering the chef's job....


it was at that point I started to really question her motives, she always picked a fight with someone including me at times...

also that always (bold part) stuck with me... and it was why I didn't feel sorry for anyone regarding a boycott... they all knew everything so they had to know who and why Natalee was harmed.  She singlehandedly sealed my position on the boycott.... that day.
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Author: Anatole
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« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2007, 08:40:57 PM »

Peeking back in
Semi  O/T

I tried search for BT*  to find any SockMonkey updates and came up with nothing Shocked   then Tried Oldf* and got hits..  Confused
Just thought I would pass it along

 Embarassed   Hi gang..
PS.. I remembered the IMG tags this time  Wink
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It is NOT over !!! If you believe good prevails and that the truth comes forward then justice will be handed out.  I want answers!
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« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2007, 08:45:42 PM »

Quote from: "oldfart"
Peeking back in
Semi  O/T

I tried search for BT*  to find any SockMonkey updates and came up with nothing Shocked   then Tried Oldf* and got hits..  Confused
Just thought I would pass it along

 Embarassed   Hi gang..
PS.. I remembered the IMG tags this time  Wink


Oldfart - they are posted in the Monkey Lounge
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Shell
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« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2007, 08:45:50 PM »

If Paulus was not directly involved, and he and Nadira are to be believed( rolling eyes here)...the window of opportunity is 1:00ish till 5:00ish. 4 hours. This is a rough estimate. However, if Paulus were to not be telling the truth about when he awakened J and when J left for school etc, then the window of opportunity expands.

Just thinking out loud, not sure of my point Embarassed
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« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2007, 08:46:44 PM »

Good eveninng Monkeys!

Good discussions going on tonight.
AZLady: I agree with so much of what you said in your last post. But I still have a burning question . . . were those PIMPS worthy of such a huge cover-up? You mentioned video of the assault and I agree, but I beleive if this is the case, there is an entire network that is being protected. IMO the videos being made were not for the PIMPs enjoyment only but more of an enterprise.  Just thinking out loud. Any thoughts?
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« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2007, 08:48:09 PM »

Shell, we have learned that Paulus did pick up Joran and Natalee at 4 AM at McDonalds.  That was revealed by the Aruban Justice System and the reason why they denied him compensation because they determined he did have contact with Natalee at 4 AM and held some responsibility for his own arrest due to his complicity.
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« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2007, 08:49:58 PM »

Quote from: "shadow"
Good eveninng Monkeys!

Good discussions going on tonight.
AZLady: I agree with so much of what you said in your last post. But I still have a burning question . . . were those PIMPS worthy of such a huge cover-up? You mentioned video of the assault and I agree, but I beleive if this is the case, there is an entire network that is being protected. IMO the videos being made were not for the PIMPs enjoyment only but more of an enterprise.  Just thinking out loud. Any thoughts?


well it's why I wonder about who else was involved in this type of activity... Dompig?  all of ALE... did they never believe the women or assume that they ended up crack houses because they had made sure of it?
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Shell
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« Reply #99 on: July 25, 2007, 08:50:57 PM »

Quote from: "shadow"
Good eveninng Monkeys!

Good discussions going on tonight.
AZLady: I agree with so much of what you said in your last post. But I still have a burning question . . . were those PIMPS worthy of such a huge cover-up? You mentioned video of the assault and I agree, but I beleive if this is the case, there is an entire network that is being protected. IMO the videos being made were not for the PIMPs enjoyment only but more of an enterprise.  Just thinking out loud. Any thoughts?


I keep wondering what favors were called in to protect the son of the judge. I would like to know things that happened before Paulus ever got to Aruba, his history, the cases he had influence over. I personally think that would open a huge can of worms and explain why all this for a few punks.
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