Lively Case Discussion #668 7/28 - 7/30/2007

[Observer]

I need a little drug education here.  I probably missed it the first time it was discussed, but is GHB and Ecstasy the same thing?  If not do they both have the same effects? 

No, they aren't... ghb will completely pass the person out, it is like you want to make them unconcious.  with Ecstasy they are hyper... it's why it's taken during raves.... effects are somewhat like cocaine.... but maybe more intense.

Could you say-- GHB would suppress mental activity and memory; XTC would stimulate desires and suppress inhabition. 

Would that be accurate?

yes, that's it... AZLady just posted a more detailed explanation. 

Morning All

You guys are correct Ecstasy(XTC) and GHB have opposite affects..XTC the pill is very popular with ravers and at parties..However for some reason GHB also is known as Liquid Ecstasy..So XTC and Liquid XTC are very diffrent drugs..

[Buckeye]

MDMA (Ecstasy)
MDMA (3-4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine) is a synthetic, psychoactive drug chemically similar to the stimulant methamphetamine and the hallucinogen mescaline. Street names for MDMA include "ecstasy," "XTC," and "hug drug." In high doses, MDMA can interfere with the body's ability to regulate temperature. On rare but unpredictable occasions, this can lead to a sharp increase in body temperature (hyperthermia), resulting in liver, kidney, and cardiovascular system failure, and death. Because MDMA can interfere with its own metabolism (breakdown within the body), potentially harmful levels can be reached by repeated drug use within short intervals.

GHB
Since about 1990, GHB (gamma hydroxybutyrate) has been abused in the U.S. for its euphoric, sedative, and anabolic (body building) effects. It is a central nervous system depressant that was widely available over-the-counter in health food stores during the 1980s and until 1992. It was purchased largely by body builders to aid in fat reduction and muscle building. Street names include "liquid ecstasy," "soap," "easy lay," "vita-G," and "Georgia home boy."

Coma and seizures can occur following use of GHB. Combining use with other drugs such as alcohol can result in nausea and breathing difficulties. GHB may also produce withdrawal effects, including insomnia, anxiety, tremors, and sweating. GHB and two of its precursors, gamma butyrolactone (GBL) and 1,4 butanediol (BD), have been involved in poisonings, overdoses, date rapes, and deaths.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/Clubdrugs.html

[AZLady]

If you give a person GHB, I guess we can assume it to be females that are given this drug most of the time, and then she reacts more severely than she should.  Could you then dose her with XTC to wake her up?  How would that work?

I don't think that would be done.  For one thing, the victim would be unconscious and you couldn't effectively make her swallow the ecstacy.  Even if you could, ecstacy is a slower-acting, longer effect type of drug.  Usually the person who is dosed with GHB is just allowed to sleep it off and then they wake up hours later.  Those who don't are dead.  Here's more on GHB:  http://www.projectghb.org/english.htm

[Lala'sMom]

If you give a person GHB, I guess we can assume it to be females that are given this drug most of the time, and then she reacts more severely than she should.  Could you then dose her with XTC to wake her up?  How would that work?

WOW... somebody is finally thinking my theory... that they drugged her with ghb to rape her and tried the cocaine to wake her up... and then gave her too much...but something else happened they didn't count on.... like she did fall.... or maybe Satish hit her with the car...

Well, I never actually thought about waking her up, but now that the cocaine tale has been floated around it makes a little sense.  If you recall in Deepak's statement, the earlier ones, he mentions Natalee lying with her head in Joran's lap.  The first time I read that I got huge red flags everywhere. ( I know, it's just me, but anyway) I think she was indeed drugged from that shot of 151 that Joran gave her.  He bought it for her and he made certain that she washed it down.  Then within a few minutes she is leaving Cnc's.  She is still able to walk from what Alana says and she had no intention of going anywhere with Joran...until the drug kicks in.  Joran is conveniently there for her. Swish! Bam! Boom!  She's in a car and going away.  A practiced scenario if there ever was one.

[Lala'sMom]

If you give a person GHB, I guess we can assume it to be females that are given this drug most of the time, and then she reacts more severely than she should.  Could you then dose her with XTC to wake her up?  How would that work?

I don't think that would be done.  For one thing, the victim would be unconscious and you couldn't effectively make her swallow the ecstacy.  Even if you could, ecstacy is a slower-acting, longer effect type of drug.  Usually the person who is dosed with GHB is just allowed to sleep it off and then they wake up hours later.  Those who don't are dead.  Here's more on GHB:  http://www.projectghb.org/english.htm

Oaky, maybe I am way off base in that one.  I was just thinking about it.  Maybe the pimps know a way to wake the girls up in order to get a more realistic video.  I mean, what good is it if the girl is out cold?  I know, off base here too. Sorry. My opinion only.

[AZLady]

Lala's, that is what happened.  While GHB is odorless and colorless, it does have a distinctly salty flavor.  That is one reason why it is mixed with a shot of 151 rum.  By the time you might detect the saltiness, you have already downed the drink as shots are usually taken in one swallow.  Another reason is that a smaller dose of GHB is needed when it is mixed with alcohol.  The alcohol enhances the effects. 

Someone who has overdosed on GHB has very slow to eventually no respiration, possibly convulsions, vomiting, and finally irregular and no heartbeat.  This all happens quickly and is definitely a 911 emergency.  By the time Natalee convulsed and vomited, her heart and breathing stopped pretty soon afterward.  There would not have been time to try some other drug on her.

[NYC_lover]

If you give a person GHB, I guess we can assume it to be females that are given this drug most of the time, and then she reacts more severely than she should.  Could you then dose her with XTC to wake her up?  How would that work?

Lala'sMom: No XTC help somebody a wake up. XTC is not a against fight means again GHB.
There been another means for GHB, when somebody is a victim of GHB.

[Blue Moon]

I need a little drug education here.  I probably missed it the first time it was discussed, but is GHB and Ecstasy the same thing?  If not do they both have the same effects? 

No, they aren't... ghb will completely pass the person out, it is like you want to make them unconcious.  with Ecstasy they are hyper... it's why it's taken during raves.... effects are somewhat like cocaine.... but maybe more intense.

Could you say-- GHB would suppress mental activity and memory; XTC would stimulate desires and suppress inhabition. 

Would that be accurate?

yes, that's it... AZLady just posted a more detailed explanation. 

That was a great explanation.

What would the effect be if given GHB at CnC along with alcohol and then at the stop that was made after leaving CnC's she was given XTC?  Would this cause an overdose mixing the two drugs? Would make sense they were going for the full effects offered by both drugs.

[klaasend]

MRS. RED - I know Red and Dugga were probably up most of the night working on the transition of the front page but please have Red check his email when he can.

There are still many members that can't get in, especially those on AOL dialup.  AOL continues to be an issue.

[NYC_lover]

I need a little drug education here.  I probably missed it the first time it was discussed, but is GHB and Ecstasy the same thing?  If not do they both have the same effects? 

No, they aren't... ghb will completely pass the person out, it is like you want to make them unconcious.  with Ecstasy they are hyper... it's why it's taken during raves.... effects are somewhat like cocaine.... but maybe more intense.

Could you say-- GHB would suppress mental activity and memory; XTC would stimulate desires and suppress inhabition. 

Would that be accurate?

yes, that's it... AZLady just posted a more detailed explanation. 

Morning All

You guys are correct Ecstasy(XTC) and GHB have opposite affects..XTC the pill is very popular with ravers and at parties..However for some reason GHB also is known as Liquid Ecstasy..So XTC and Liquid XTC are very diffrent drugs..

Good afternoon *******.
Do u have got my email?

[AZLady]

If anything was given to Natalee after leaving C&C's, it was probably more GHB that lead to her death. 

Effects: The onset of GHB effects is rapid. Unconsciousness or overdose can occur after 15 minutes and a coma can occur within 30-40 minutes. GHB produces a wide range of effects including: drowsiness, nausea, dizziness, amnesia, decreased rate, reduced blood pressure, visual hallucinations, coma and death. Alcohol intensifies the effects of GHB and increases the liklihood of overdose and death. GHB overdose often requires emergency room care and many deaths have resulted. Rapists have used GHB to facilitate sexual assaults because the victim is unable to resist and may have difficulty remembering exactly what happened, rendering the case difficult to prosecute in court. There have been numerous occurences of people slipping GHB into other people’s drinks for the purpose of taking advantage of them.
from http://www.waynesvillepd.com/Narcotics/GHB/ghb.html

[mrs. red]

MRS. RED - I know Red and Dugga were probably up most of the night working on the transition of the front page but please have Red check his email when he can.

There are still many members that can't get in, especially those on AOL dialup.  AOL continues to be an issue.

K... will do... i am reading back, sorry i didn't reply sooner...

[NYC_lover]

I need a little drug education here.  I probably missed it the first time it was discussed, but is GHB and Ecstasy the same thing?  If not do they both have the same effects? 

No, they aren't... ghb will completely pass the person out, it is like you want to make them unconcious.  with Ecstasy they are hyper... it's why it's taken during raves.... effects are somewhat like cocaine.... but maybe more intense.

Could you say-- GHB would suppress mental activity and memory; XTC would stimulate desires and suppress inhabition. 

Would that be accurate?

yes, that's it... AZLady just posted a more detailed explanation. 

That was a great explanation.

What would the effect be if given GHB at CnC along with alcohol and then at the stop that was made after leaving CnC's she was given XTC?  Would this cause an overdose mixing the two drugs? Would make sense they were going for the full effects offered by both drugs.

Blue Moon of KY:
XTC in combination with alcohol is deadly.
GHB in combination with alcohol is deadly.
Cocaine in combination with alcohol is deadly.
And I think mixing drugs can been deadly too.
And more kind of drugs in combination with alcohol is deadly.

[Observer]

I think one of these two drugs is what most likely they gave Natalee..Rohypnol seems like the heavier of the two as the effects can last twice as long.

Gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB)
Grievous Bodily Harm, G, Liquid Ecstasy,

GHB’s intoxicating effects begin 10-20 minutes after the drug is taken. The effects typically last up to 4 hours, depending on the dosage.At lower doses, GHB can relieve anxiety and produce relaxation; however, as the dose increases, the sedative effects may result in sleep and eventual coma or death.

Overdose of GHB can occur rather quickly, and the signs are similar to those of other sedatives: drowsiness, nausea, vomiting, headache, loss of consciousness, loss of reflexes, impaired breathing, and ultimately death


Rohypnol (flunitrazepam) Roofies,Rophies,Roche,Forget-me-pill

Rohypnol is tasteless and odorless, and it dissolves easily in carbonated beverages.The sedative and toxic effects of Rohypnol are aggravated by concurrent use of alcohol. Even without alcohol, a dose of Rohypnol as small as 1 mg. can impair a victim for 8 to 12 hours.The drug can cause profound “anterograde amnesia”; that is, individuals may not remember events they experienced while under the effects of the drug. This may be why one of the street names for Rohypnol is “the forget-me-pill” and it has been reportedly used in sexual assaults.

Cities where cases of Rohypnol use are being reported: Miami, Houston, and along the Texas- Mexico border. (There have been suspicions of Rohypnol use in the Inland Empire.)

[AZLady]

I think the confusion arose because of the numerous street names for these "club drugs."  GHB is also called Liquid Ecstacy; however, it is not the same as the ecstacy pills that ravers take to get high and dance all night.  I think the cocaine suggestion came about for several reasons:

• Cocaine is very prevalent on the island, as it is a transhipment point from South to North America,
• Cocaine is taken voluntarily, while GHB is usually administered as a rape drug,

The cocaine reference is an attempt to throw the blame on Natalee for overdosing herself, when in reality she never touched cocaine but was overdosed by Joran and the 2K's on GHB.  The one scenario is an accidental overdose; the second scenario is murder.

[San]

If you give a person GHB, I guess we can assume it to be females that are given this drug most of the time, and then she reacts more severely than she should.  Could you then dose her with XTC to wake her up?  How would that work?

WOW... somebody is finally thinking my theory... that they drugged her with ghb to rape her and tried the cocaine to wake her up... and then gave her too much...but something else happened they didn't count on.... like she did fall.... or maybe Satish hit her with the car...

Joran hit her with his fist or an object because she woke up and was screaming.

[ospainter]

Natalee was also taking medication for a sinus infection wasn't she? That with Alcohol and GHB and monsters...

OS

[Observer]

Hi NYC LOver..Got your email..Funny Stuff!!!

[AZLady]

If you give a person GHB, I guess we can assume it to be females that are given this drug most of the time, and then she reacts more severely than she should.  Could you then dose her with XTC to wake her up?  How would that work?

WOW... somebody is finally thinking my theory... that they drugged her with ghb to rape her and tried the cocaine to wake her up... and then gave her too much...but something else happened they didn't count on.... like she did fall.... or maybe Satish hit her with the car...

Joran hit her with his fist or an object because she woke up and was screaming.

San, this is most likely.  GHB doses are very difficult to regulate and predict.  Alcohol also contributes to its effects.  One report said Natalee told Joran she would take the shot in two drinks, not one.  Perhaps she only drank half of it, getting half a dose.  If Joran suspected she didn't get enough, perhaps he gave her another drink with more GHB in it.  Who knows?  Only Joran.  It seems obvious that she got too much of it, one way or another, and went into a coma and died.

[Blue Moon]

I think the confusion arose because of the numerous street names for these "club drugs."  GHB is also called Liquid Ecstacy; however, it is not the same as the ecstacy pills that ravers take to get high and dance all night.  I think the cocaine suggestion came about for several reasons:

• Cocaine is very prevalent on the island, as it is a transhipment point from South to North America,
• Cocaine is taken voluntarily, while GHB is usually administered as a rape drug,

The cocaine reference is an attempt to throw the blame on Natalee for overdosing herself, when in reality she never touched cocaine but was overdosed by Joran and the 2K's on GHB.  The one scenario is an accidental overdose; the second scenario is murder.

So what is different this time than the other 20 times before is the amount of GHB that was given to her than what was given to others before?