Lively Case Discussion #668 7/28 - 7/30/2007

[AZLady]

I think the confusion arose because of the numerous street names for these "club drugs."  GHB is also called Liquid Ecstacy; however, it is not the same as the ecstacy pills that ravers take to get high and dance all night.  I think the cocaine suggestion came about for several reasons:

• Cocaine is very prevalent on the island, as it is a transhipment point from South to North America,
• Cocaine is taken voluntarily, while GHB is usually administered as a rape drug,

The cocaine reference is an attempt to throw the blame on Natalee for overdosing herself, when in reality she never touched cocaine but was overdosed by Joran and the 2K's on GHB.  The one scenario is an accidental overdose; the second scenario is murder.

So what is different this time than the other 20 times before is the amount of GHB that was given to her than what was given to others before?

Possibly.  Or, the amount of alcohol that enhanced the effects of the GHB.  Or something as innocuous as the person's body weight and tolerance for this type of drug.

[mrs. red]

If you give a person GHB, I guess we can assume it to be females that are given this drug most of the time, and then she reacts more severely than she should.  Could you then dose her with XTC to wake her up?  How would that work?

WOW... somebody is finally thinking my theory... that they drugged her with ghb to rape her and tried the cocaine to wake her up... and then gave her too much...but something else happened they didn't count on.... like she did fall.... or maybe Satish hit her with the car...

Joran hit her with his fist or an object because she woke up and was screaming.

well I thought of the car because they were seen cleaning it at 2:00 am and the police van conversation where it's mentioned about satish hitting that girl... then later... much later, satish is the one that "picked joran up"....

just tossing out new theories.... I have become less convinced of anything other than this:

they put roofies in her drink, she did not willingly go with them, they raped and killed her....  this I am sure did happen.

[AZLady]

One thing I'm sure about--Natalee didn't TAKE cocaine VOLUNTARILY.  She was INVOLUNTARILY given a date rape drug.  She did not die from an accidental overdose.  She was murdered when Joran gave her an overdose of a date rape drug.  It's that simple.

[Buckeye]

I think the confusion arose because of the numerous street names for these "club drugs."  GHB is also called Liquid Ecstacy; however, it is not the same as the ecstacy pills that ravers take to get high and dance all night.  I think the cocaine suggestion came about for several reasons:

• Cocaine is very prevalent on the island, as it is a transhipment point from South to North America,
• Cocaine is taken voluntarily, while GHB is usually administered as a rape drug,

The cocaine reference is an attempt to throw the blame on Natalee for overdosing herself, when in reality she never touched cocaine but was overdosed by Joran and the 2K's on GHB.  The one scenario is an accidental overdose; the second scenario is murder.

So what is different this time than the other 20 times before is the amount of GHB that was given to her than what was given to others before?

Possibly.  Or, the amount of alcohol that enhanced the effects of the GHB.  Or something as innocuous as the person's body weight and tolerance for this type of drug.

Or perhaps a different batch.
GHB was (and might still be) very big in the gay bar scenes.  I think there are even "educational" you tube videos.

[AZLady]

One thing I'm sure about--Natalee didn't TAKE cocaine VOLUNTARILY.  She was INVOLUNTARILY given a date rape drug.  She did not die from an accidental overdose.  She was murdered when Joran gave her an overdose of a date rape drug.  It's that simple.

(Geez, now I'm quoting myself).  Correction, she was given a date rape drug by Joran that may have resulted in her death.  On the other hand, Joran himself may have violently killed her after administering the date rape drug to facilitate kidnapping and raping her.  I'm leaving that scenario on the table, too.

[AZLady]

I think the confusion arose because of the numerous street names for these "club drugs."  GHB is also called Liquid Ecstacy; however, it is not the same as the ecstacy pills that ravers take to get high and dance all night.  I think the cocaine suggestion came about for several reasons:

• Cocaine is very prevalent on the island, as it is a transhipment point from South to North America,
• Cocaine is taken voluntarily, while GHB is usually administered as a rape drug,

The cocaine reference is an attempt to throw the blame on Natalee for overdosing herself, when in reality she never touched cocaine but was overdosed by Joran and the 2K's on GHB.  The one scenario is an accidental overdose; the second scenario is murder.

So what is different this time than the other 20 times before is the amount of GHB that was given to her than what was given to others before?

Possibly.  Or, the amount of alcohol that enhanced the effects of the GHB.  Or something as innocuous as the person's body weight and tolerance for this type of drug.

Or perhaps a different batch.
GHB was (and might still be) very big in the gay bar scenes.  I think there are even "educational" you tube videos.

OMG, Buckeye.  You mean we might have just shown Lala's a youtube video and be done with it?   

[mishy]

Hey monkeys~~I'm back on my Mac! Thanks to Dugga, Red, Klaas, San, and ******* for helping to make that happen!! BTW, the FP looks great!!!!

I see ya'll are talking about GHB and XTC...I'm going to work and lurk for awhile (since most of the time I should have been working yesterday was spent here, or trying to get here!)

Hope you all have a great day!!

[ospainter]

[/quote]

If you give a person GHB, I guess we can assume it to be females that are given this drug most of the time, and then she reacts more severely than she should.  Could you then dose her with XTC to wake her up?  How would that work?

WOW... somebody is finally thinking my theory... that they drugged her with ghb to rape her and tried the cocaine to wake her up... and then gave her too much...but something else happened they didn't count on.... like she did fall.... or maybe Satish hit her with the car...

Joran hit her with his fist or an object because she woke up and was screaming.

well I thought of the car because they were seen cleaning it at 2:00 am and the police van conversation where it's mentioned about satish hitting that girl... then later... much later, satish is the one that "picked joran up"....

just tossing out new theories.... I have become less convinced of anything other than this:

they put roofies in her drink, she did not willingly go with them, they raped and killed her....  this I am sure did happen.

Mrs. Red,

I think sk (from in-car taped conversation) hit her with the car.. Changing drivers when dk (said) stopped to relieve himself. But then none of them knew who Natalee was sitting behind in the car, so who knows who was driving away from C&C's. So dang many lies..

OS

[Buckeye]

One thing I'm sure about--Natalee didn't TAKE cocaine VOLUNTARILY.  She was INVOLUNTARILY given a date rape drug.  She did not die from an accidental overdose.  She was murdered when Joran gave her an overdose of a date rape drug.  It's that simple.

I agree.  We might not have the exact "island" drug preference but I am sure the emergency room staff can tell you exactly what drugs are popular. They probably all work for the government, though. Wasn't Freddy's girlfriend Carmen, a nurse??

[ospainter]

Oh geez,

Klaas, can you fix my double post to Mrs. Red above??

Thanks,

OS

[Buckeye]

AZLady

If my memory serves me correctly, I'm thinking those videos should not be linked.  They are graphic and scarey. Anyone can search youtube for GHB (not the musical group).

[klaasend]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST AND CAPTION CONTEST:

Scared Monkeys Weekend Caption Contest … Man Found Drown in Aruba

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2007/07/29/scared-monkeys-weekend-caption-contest-man-found-drown-in-aruba/

[Lala'sMom]

Now let me get this straight...if Natalee was given a dose of GHB in that shot of 151 Joran bought for her and it caused her problems, thus the symptoms of an overdose...then how could anything else have happened past that point?  Would she not already be dead by the time she was in the car for about 15 minutes?  There would have been no sex, no fighting, etc.  No phone calls. 

Also, if this drug is so easy to overdose on, why is it that most everyone slips it into an alcoholic  drink?  That is the method of dosage, isn't it?  Drinking at a party?  I would assume almost every girl that has ever been the victim of this drug has taken it in a drink containing alcohol.  Help me here.

[AZLady]

One thing I'm sure about--Natalee didn't TAKE cocaine VOLUNTARILY.  She was INVOLUNTARILY given a date rape drug.  She did not die from an accidental overdose.  She was murdered when Joran gave her an overdose of a date rape drug.  It's that simple.

I agree.  We might not have the exact "island" drug preference but I am sure the emergency room staff can tell you exactly what drugs are popular. They probably all work for the government, though. Wasn't Freddy's girlfriend Carmen, a nurse??

I hope that when TES finds her body, there might be discernible traces of what was done to her.  I know that may not be likely so long after her death, but if her body has been in deep water all this time in a cage, it may be possible.  If not, at least the family will be able to take her home, and that's been the goal all along.

[AZLady]

AZLady

If my memory serves me correctly, I'm thinking those videos should not be linked.  They are graphic and scarey. Anyone can search youtube for GHB (not the musical group).

You've got that right!  I was just teasing Lala's.   

[Lala'sMom]

Oh and speaking of the car.  I have always thought they were cleaning up vomit.  There may have been blood there, but if she was overdosed, then she would have become very sick.  Sick enough to vomit, which maybe they had stopped to let her throw up and Deepak just said he was peeing.  Then she tried to run away...I don't know...I am going in too many directions here. Sorry. I will get more organized in my thinking in a minute.

[Red]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST AND CAPTION CONTEST:

Scared Monkeys Weekend Caption Contest … Man Found Drown in Aruba

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2007/07/29/scared-monkeys-weekend-caption-contest-man-found-drown-in-aruba/

I figured the caption was like throwing a softball to y'all.

Have at this one. Trying to hold back on my own captions for this one as I thought of numerous ones as it was posted.

Also remember to look in the right hand column in the forum under the RSS feeds for Headlines from Scaredmonkeys.com, radio podcasts and MissingExploited.com for up to date and recent posts added.

Let's see what captions you come up with.

[Buckeye]

Now let me get this straight...if Natalee was given a dose of GHB in that shot of 151 Joran bought for her and it caused her problems, thus the symptoms of an overdose...then how could anything else have happened past that point?  Would she not already be dead by the time she was in the car for about 15 minutes?  There would have been no sex, no fighting, etc.  No phone calls. 

Also, if this drug is so easy to overdose on, why is it that most everyone slips it into an alcoholic  drink?  That is the method of dosage, isn't it?  Drinking at a party?  I would assume almost every girl that has ever been the victim of this drug has taken it in a drink containing alcohol.  Help me here.

Maybe she didn't drink it all. She was in and out of it (and the alcohol). It's history is that of a club drug.  In low doses, people liked the effects.  Maybe she came around some and they gave her more (from the yard cup they got rid of by the Marriott...or the one Joran gave to the tourist  ...notice rolling eyes)??  Who knows.  Maybe she vomited and they gave her more from a water bottle??

[AZLady]

Now let me get this straight...if Natalee was given a dose of GHB in that shot of 151 Joran bought for her and it caused her problems, thus the symptoms of an overdose...then how could anything else have happened past that point?  Would she not already be dead by the time she was in the car for about 15 minutes?  There would have been no sex, no fighting, etc.  No phone calls. 

Also, if this drug is so easy to overdose on, why is it that most everyone slips it into an alcoholic  drink?  That is the method of dosage, isn't it?  Drinking at a party?  I would assume almost every girl that has ever been the victim of this drug has taken it in a drink containing alcohol.  Help me here.

GHB doesn't take effect for about 30 minutes.  That's why J2K go to C&C's a half hour before closing.  It is usually administered in the "last call" drinks.  I'm sure this is why Alana said her eyes looked heavy when she saw her walking out of C&C's--it was beginning to take effect.  They may have given her another dose later--a post I read early in the case indicated this.  Although the victim becomes unconscious within 30 minutes, it does take a while for the body to metabolize the drug, and the effects to build to the point of death.  She may have been unconscious an hour, two or three, before slipping into a coma.  They may have not even known it happened.  However, once she slipped into a coma, the vomiting and slowed heart rate would lead to death fairly quickly, probably within 10 minutes. 

Not everyone takes GHB in alcohol.  In fact, that's the most dangerous way to take it.  People who use the drug "recreationally" usually take it in fruit juice.  (It was given to me in a glass of grape juice.)  The alcohol accelerates the effect--but it also makes it possible to get more doses of GHB out of a batch.   So, bartenders selling GHB-laced shots would get more shots out of a bottle and make more money on one bottle.   

[Observer]

Now let me get this straight...if Natalee was given a dose of GHB in that shot of 151 Joran bought for her and it caused her problems, thus the symptoms of an overdose...then how could anything else have happened past that point?  Would she not already be dead by the time she was in the car for about 15 minutes?  There would have been no sex, no fighting, etc.  No phone calls. 

Also, if this drug is so easy to overdose on, why is it that most everyone slips it into an alcoholic  drink?  That is the method of dosage, isn't it?  Drinking at a party?  I would assume almost every girl that has ever been the victim of this drug has taken it in a drink containing alcohol.  Help me here.

Joran hit her with his fist or an object because she woke up and was screaming.

I think it's possible that she was given a low dose at 12:30 and it only lasted 2 hours,she woke up and there was a fight as she freaked out from being raped. I think its possible they drugged her again to render her helpless and to make sure she didn't remember anything when she woke up. She might have been so drugged that they thought she wouldnt be able to remember phone numbers to call but they were wrong.

That or Joran inflicted major damage hitting her in the head and she was seriously hurt and there was no second drugging.