Lively Case Discussion #669 7/30 - 7/31/2007

[Anna]

GrannyToad,

This isn't a picnic table but a wall of some sort that is being used as one.  Could this photo be what you are referring to?



Am trying to recall the specifics about this.  Been a long time and can't quite remember.

[Kimmy53]

Thanks 2NJ for that link.  This is interesting:

RED:
There have been reports that a shallow grave was discovered in the area of Boca Tortuga, on the eastern part of the island. There are also reports that cell-phone calls made by Joran earlyin the morning came from a location on the eastern side of the island. It seems plausible that thisarea could yield more clues.

TIM MILLER
We found a site that we feel as though was a possible gravesite. Our thoughts are that Natalee may have been buried in that hole for 1 or 2 days then moved. We have information that the cell phoneswere possibly being used in that area. Joran stated that something went wrong and they buried Nataleein the sand which we feel the spot we found is possibly it. The duct tape and hair was found 3/4 of a mile from where the possible gravesite was. With the information of her being buried, possible cellphone usage, discovery of possible gravesite, and duct tape with hair lead me to believe that Nataleewas dumped in the sea in that area. We are anxiously awaiting the results of the hair samples which has been sent to the FBI lab and also the lab in the Netherlands.

[Lala'sMom]

I don't believe in coincidence.  At least not where this case is concerned.  It is ALWAYS more than meets the eye.  Rob proved that yesterday.  BTW I have a question for Rob. (not that I am speaking to him or anything)

[Rob]

I haven't had much time to look into Jupiter yet, but Grande already foud this.

CNN cached-
http://tinyurl.com/2vx5am
6-20-2005

MYRNA JANSEN, ARUBA TOURISM AUTHORITY: We have received about 600 e-mails since June the sixth and some people ask, you know, "I have an 8-year-old daughter. Should I come to Aruba?" Others ask, you know, "What is the status of the case."

SNOW: Aruba's tourism authority say it's trying to personally answer those e-mails and it says, despite the concerns, tourists, mostly from the U.S., are not changing their travel plans.

JANSEN: From the Hotel Associations, we know that there have not been any major cancellations at all. SNOW: Any impact on tourism is key, since the country's estimated economy of $2 billion relies heavily on visitors. Travel industry analyst Diane Clarkson estimates tourism makes up 60 percent of the total economy and says it has puts officials in Aruba in a tight spot.

DIANE CLARKSON, JUPITER RESEARCH: They're trying to balance all of this global media attention on something that is tragic and at the same time, they're very aware that their country's economy depends on people continuing to visit. So it's a tricky position for them to be in right now.

SNOW: U.S. travel agents like Tradewind Tours, which specialize in Caribbean vacations, says it, too, has heard concerns with no cancellations on trips to Aruba, but it expects all the publicity surrounding the Holloway case could have an impact on future bookings.

GRETA HOLMEN, TRADEWIND TOURS: I think, generally, it probably will affect short-term. Long-term: Hopefully not.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

**This transcript also talks about the arrest of Steve Croes.**

[Tamikosmom]

THE SHALLOW GRAVE


Vinda Desousa - Family Aruban Attorney
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
July 20, 2005

DESOUSA: Well about the shallow grave, there was a shallow hole, yes, found by EquuSearch, and the authorities took a look at it and apparently it had no evidence or nothing to link it to any crime.


Tim Miller
Scared Monkey Interview
July 24, 2005

RED:  There have been reports that a shallow grave was discovered in the area of Boca Tortuga, on the eastern part of the island. There are also reports that cell-phone calls made by Joran earlyin the morning came from a location on the eastern side of the island. It seems plausible that thisarea could yield more clues.

TIM MILLER:  We found a site that we feel as though was a possible gravesite. Our thoughts are that Natalee may have been buried in that hole for 1 or 2 days then moved. We have information that the cell phoneswere possibly being used in that area. Joran stated that something went wrong and they buried Nataleein the sand which we feel the spot we found is possibly it. The duct tape and hair was found 3/4 of a mile from where the possible gravesite was. With the information of her being buried, possible cellphone usage, discovery of possible gravesite, and duct tape with hair lead me to believe that Nataleewas dumped in the sea in that area. We are anxiously awaiting the results of the hair samples which has been sent to the FBI lab and also the lab in the Netherlands.

[KarmaRoundUp]

[excerpted]

Speaking of fuzzy, my recall is about something. 2005, Miller, TES, the cadaver dogs had just gotten to Aruba. The first hit they had was (the hazy part) like at a depression in the sand beneath a picnic table (???) I thought nearer the salinja than the fisherman huts. Close by where the Gardener said he saw the Kalpoe car parked 2:30-3AM, yes? Anyway then it rained or ALE ran them off or something else ended that. Does anyone recall? Or am I not remembering this right?

I still wonder what that was about if the dogs were trained to (notify handler) on only human cadaver scent.[/b][/color]

This is what I remember also.  I remember them digging in the sand and placing the sad in this big sifter like thing while a cop was standing there watching.  Tim said there was something there that was moved.

Good morning
I remember this but not the picnic table part.What I remember is Tim from TES saying a unidentified man told them the spot to check,man said there was a hole dug.They showed it on tv....they were sifting the sand from this shallow grave looking hole.I now wonder where was Tim's and TES search going to be that day before this unidentified man told them about this hole cause it seems to me this was just another put on search ment to distract.

I'm sorry but I think you may be referring to another, later, event on another part of the island. What I'm referring to would be right near the Marriott & the salinja they made a big media event out of pumping.

Oh.You are talking about when they tried to drain the pond?The pond that took a few days to pump and then they never did finish pumping it?I don't remember a hole being there but my memory is faulty.

[Kimmy53]

How about this - from the same link:

Joran stated that something went wrong and they buried Nataleein the sand which we feel the spot we found is possibly it.

and:

 Again I feel as though with the possible gravesite tape and hair, comments of Natalee being buried in the sand and possible phone calls from that area something possibly happened there.

I wonder where these comments were from????  Missing PV's?

[Kimmy53]

How about this - from the same link:

Joran stated that something went wrong and they buried Nataleein the sand which we feel the spot we found is possibly it.

and:

 Again I feel as though with the possible gravesite tape and hair, comments of Natalee being buried in the sand and possible phone calls from that area something possibly happened there.

I wonder where these comments were from????  Missing PV's?

I wanted to add that these are Tim Miller's comments.

[GrannyToad]

It is not the more well-known Boca Tortuga area dig that I'm asking about. I'm asking about a site right near the Marriott and the salinja, and much earlier, probably when TES-associated cadaver dogs & handlers first got to Aruba. I'm not even sure there was video or pics, more likely a side mention in discussion by Tim Miller in a televised interview.

[KarmaRoundUp]

Regarding TES & the shallow grave...I searched the FP for early stories and did not find the exact one that said a stranger pointed the grave out or suggested they look there, but did find an interview Tim did with Red & Tom back in July, 2005.  Shallow grave, dog hits are touched upon, as well as some specific areas.  Note that Tim, at that time, was looking into a water search off the eastern coast of the island.  Interesting to reread for I surely found things I had not known or perhaps had forgotten.....here's a link to it:

http://tinyurl.com/3b2tur

Lala's, wish I had answers to your questions regarding Nut44X4's research....it is interesting....and Rob's posts of yesterday, relating to the FL connection....does it all tie in, or is it all just coincidence?

Thank you 2NJ
Where is this area Tim is talking about?I think this is the same area as the shallow grave I was talking about:
RED
There have been reports that a shallow grave was discovered in the area of Boca Tortuga, on the eastern part of the island. There are also reports that cell-phone calls made by Joran earlyin the morning came from a location on the eastern side of the island. It seems plausible that thisarea could yield more clues.

TIM MILLERWe found a site that we feel as though was a possible gravesite. Our thoughts are that Natalee may have been buried in that hole for 1 or 2 days then moved. We have information that the cell phoneswere possibly being used in that area. Joran stated that something went wrong and they buried Nataleein the sand which we feel the spot we found is possibly it. The duct tape and hair was found 3/4 of a mile from where the possible gravesite was. With the information of her being buried, possible cellphone usage, discovery of possible gravesite, and duct tape with hair lead me to believe that Nataleewas dumped in the sea in that area. We are anxiously awaiting the results of the hair samples which has been sent to the FBI lab and also the lab in the Netherlands.

[2NJSons_Mom]

How about this - from the same link:

Joran stated that something went wrong and they buried Nataleein the sand which we feel the spot we found is possibly it.

and:

 Again I feel as though with the possible gravesite tape and hair, comments of Natalee being buried in the sand and possible phone calls from that area something possibly happened there.

I wonder where these comments were from????  Missing PV's?

Yes, I picked up on these comments by Tim and wondered if they were in PV's or otherwise.  That's why it's interesting to revisit.

GrannyToad, fwiw, I have a vague recollection of what you are referring to...

[Anna]

It is not the more well-known Boca Tortuga area dig that I'm asking about. I'm asking about a site right near the Marriott and the salinja, and much earlier, probably when TES-associated cadaver dogs & handlers first got to Aruba. I'm not even sure there was video or pics, more likely a side mention in discussion by Tim Miller in a televised interview.

I recall Tim Miller once saying something about he suspected the body had been buried there briefly then moved but I have no recollection of the location about which he was talking.

.

[Peaches]

Guido has a Hyves account  

http://wever2.hyves.nl/photos/19453304/0/8kQV/  

Yep - I've seen that.  He appears to be going on with his life, huh?

Appears that way.He can change his name to Marco(Jorans Book)and flee Aruba but eventually justice will be served.

Photo with girl climbing on his back........ Hmmmm.   Who's fooling who?

[Lala'sMom]

Guido has a Hyves account 

http://wever2.hyves.nl/photos/19453304/0/8kQV/ 

Yep - I've seen that.  He appears to be going on with his life, huh?

Appears that way.He can change his name to Marco(Jorans Book)and flee Aruba but eventually justice will be served.

Photo with girl climbing on his back........ Hmmmm.   Who's fooling who?

That's a girl???

[Anna]

Maybe I should try a different approach, when does Shango say that TES will begin its search in Aruba?  

I don't know but I am sure Shango will say it has something to do with Lorenzo  so maybe it is after Lorenzo goes to court.  Unfortunately, they can hold him that 116 days we heard so much about earlier or was it 118, have forgotten!  Also not sure how many days he has been in captivity.

 

Uh-oh!  Bet I am in the book now for sure!   

Just kidding but couldn't resist. . . .off to work.

[Tamikosmom]

THE SHALLOW GRAVE

Tim Miller
NANCY GRACE
July 13, 2005

TIM MILLER, EQUUSEARCH LEADER: ... We found an area up close, a fisherman`s hut, that we was interested in. We actually rented a backhoe. We went in there, cleared some debris out. There was a couple of mounds of dirt that we went ahead and cleared out.

And where we found that area today that kind of looked like a grave, which looked exactly like a grave -- we know what that looks like -- I`m not thoroughly convinced yet that that didn`t at one time or another have something to do with Natalee.

<snipped>

PENHAUL: The searchers were at an area called Boca Prim (ph). That`s on the northern side of the island near the national park. It`s an area of soft sand dunes. There`s only one road to get down there. It`s a very rough road. You can really only get there by four-wheel drive.

It`s where a dry riverbed meets the ocean. And it`s at that area where this thing that looked like a grave, a hole, about four feet deep and about the length of a body with a mound of sand beside it, was found, Nancy.

GRACE: Now, also, on the north end of the island, where they were today, is that where that lighthouse is?

PENHAUL: Not really, no. The lighthouse is at the northern tip, at the northwest tip. And this area is really on the northeastern side of the island.

[KarmaRoundUp]

It is not the more well-known Boca Tortuga area dig that I'm asking about. I'm asking about a site right near the Marriott and the salinja, and much earlier, probably when TES-associated cadaver dogs & handlers first got to Aruba. I'm not even sure there was video or pics, more likely a side mention in discussion by Tim Miller in a televised interview.

From searching SM I found that is the area where Melody lives,also it is mentioned in Sanders PV and Joran's PV I think.The same area where the gardener witness say the Kalpoe car with 3 people in it.He ID'd Joran in the drivers seat,Deepak in the front passenger seat and was unable to ID the back person crouching down on the seat.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?action=search2

[Lala'sMom]

Anna
Haven't you heard?  You can just ask Willie now, he's Shango today.   You must remember this:

Lala's doesn't liase with Shango.  She's not the smartest cookie in the jar here. 

[2NJSons_Mom]

Regarding TES & the shallow grave...I searched the FP for early stories and did not find the exact one that said a stranger pointed the grave out or suggested they look there, but did find an interview Tim did with Red & Tom back in July, 2005.  Shallow grave, dog hits are touched upon, as well as some specific areas.  Note that Tim, at that time, was looking into a water search off the eastern coast of the island.  Interesting to reread for I surely found things I had not known or perhaps had forgotten.....here's a link to it:

http://tinyurl.com/3b2tur

Lala's, wish I had answers to your questions regarding Nut44X4's research....it is interesting....and Rob's posts of yesterday, relating to the FL connection....does it all tie in, or is it all just coincidence?

Thank you 2NJ
Where is this area Tim is talking about?I think this is the same area as the shallow grave I was talking about:
RED
There have been reports that a shallow grave was discovered in the area of Boca Tortuga, on the eastern part of the island. There are also reports that cell-phone calls made by Joran earlyin the morning came from a location on the eastern side of the island. It seems plausible that thisarea could yield more clues.

TIM MILLERWe found a site that we feel as though was a possible gravesite. Our thoughts are that Natalee may have been buried in that hole for 1 or 2 days then moved. We have information that the cell phoneswere possibly being used in that area. Joran stated that something went wrong and they buried Nataleein the sand which we feel the spot we found is possibly it. The duct tape and hair was found 3/4 of a mile from where the possible gravesite was. With the information of her being buried, possible cellphone usage, discovery of possible gravesite, and duct tape with hair lead me to believe that Nataleewas dumped in the sea in that area. We are anxiously awaiting the results of the hair samples which has been sent to the FBI lab and also the lab in the Netherlands.

Yes, Karma, it's the area you were thinking of....it's documented in Sunfreak2's Evidence, Maps, etc.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=255.0

[BTgirl]

Anna
Haven't you heard?  You can just ask Willie now, he's Shango today.   You must remember this:

Lala's doesn't liase with Shango.  She's not the smartest cookie in the jar here. 

I've tried to read back and figure out who Willie is, but I just don't have time.  Help me out and tell me Lalas?