Lively Case Discussion #670 7/31 - 8/01/2007

[Auntiem]

<snipped> 

Perhaps it was dogs blood but there is always the possibility it was covering human blood too.  I doubt anything further was done with it after ALE declared it dogs blood.

Infuriating - Isn't it.

I agree, Kimmee, I think they planted the DOG, near the bloody mattress.  Don't think think forensics were ever done on mattress.  It was "disappeared".

[bleachedblack]

Good Morning all,

How is everbody doing today?

Morning Monks!

Good morning NYC. 

Good to see Robots take the plunge and get back in.

Is Robots bck! Good, I miss harrasing him. In the most friendly manner of course.

Sorry, afternoon Monkeys.

[SunnyinTX]

Sunny - thanks for this...I recall this from long ago...This was on Tuesday then...The morning after the family et al arrived Mon p.m.  We know the family & friends reviewed the tape that night, I also wonder who else was present as the tape was reviewed.

Also - do we know for sure there was a break in the tape?  How convenient huh?  Besides, Joran's buddy is it JVC/GVC or whatever, his dad owns the company who provides the cameras & service.


I wonder what in the conversation brought up the need for Joran and Paulus to explain the break in the tape?  Doesn't it seem odd that they would have to try to explain that away - to the headmaster?

Hi Kimmy....it does seem odd...but also a form of bragging perhaps....and were those tapes viewed before the family saw them and by who?  and yes.....why the need to tell the headmaster...so many why's....and unfortunately those why's were there then and it seems never persued by the arubans...

[SunnyinTX]

Welp, late night of 30/31May both father & son went inside the HI while the police & Twitty group asked about security tapes/videos. Paul got horsey & got taken outside by ALE.

As happenstance would have it about that same time same day 1 June Wednesday that Jug's pals were at ISA, Beth Twitty & a bunch of ALE viewed the tape that determined Natalee had not been dropped off at the hotel. (Of course that still begs the question of why ALE went in like cowboys & rousted the security guards - later.)

Paul lied, of course. Attempted to rewrite history and foul up what headmaster Werner would "believe". There is more detail to that story btw.

Natalee "may have" hit her head while "swimming", Joran? Well did she or didn't she? Did your brother really write that you'd taken off her head above the eyebrows? What's that about?
The only 2 issues of consequence remaining about this case are learning the details, and seeing the suspects prosecuted - held responsible for his/their action/s. Natalee and her loved ones have the right to both.

Hi GT....please explain the above highlighted in red...I have a big HUH? for you on that one...

I agree they have the right...but it seems in aruba there are no rights for tourists and family

[San]

Hammer:  I have always thought there was more to the Bloody Mattress than was told.  IIRC, ALE just assumed it was a dogs blood because they found it close by..WOW - they are amazing aren't they?  I remember the mattress being dismissed quite quickly. 

Perhaps it was dogs blood but there is always the possibility it was covering human blood too.  I doubt anything further was done with it after ALE declared it dogs blood.

Infuriating - Isn't it.

I agree. I always thought the mattress had human blood on it maybe even Natalee's. I think it was disposed of in that area because the security guards lived near there and had just been detained. I'm certain it was never turned in as evidence because the ALE discounted from the beginning that it had anything to do with the case by saying it was covered in dogs blood. JMO

And just as the blood testing info posted by Hammer suggests, they didn't have the technology nor the means to determine what type of blood it was on-site. The most annoying thing about all this to me is that there was no one to question their methods so they are just accepted as fact? Please!

I agree.  The ALE was spewing a bunch of lies and people were trusting them that they were doing their job and took their word as the truth.  From day one they never told the truth.  They thought they were dealing with a bunch of stupid Americans and we wouldn't find out.  They are the stupid ones because look where all their lies got them. Their country is being boycotted because of their actions.  The lies catch up with you and you start spewing more lies to coverup the lies you previously told.

[klaasend]

PLEASE NOTE:

In an attempt to please everyone  I've changed the name of this thread to LIVELY DISCUSSION (off topic allowed).  In this thead off topic is allowed.  Please do try to keep way off topic in the Monkey Lounge when at all possible.  TIA

I've created 2 new sticky threads:
CASE DISCUSSION THREAD ( no off topic allowed)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1951.0

SHANGO/SIMIAN (who are they and what did they know?)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.0

[truthseeker2]

Good Morning Monks!  Welcome Auntiem

Wile going through old saved item....I found this one..

On August 1, 2005 JUG TWITTY stated to that on 6-1 several of JUG TWITTY’s friends took some of the “KIDNAPPED” posters to Prime Suspect JORAN VAN DER SLOOT’s “International School.” The friends had written on the NATALEE “missing” posters something like “ask Joran van der Sloot about Natalee’s whereabouts.” While the friends were still at the school, the school’s headmaster, ROBERT WERNER, came out and asked them what they were doing, and if JUG TWITTY‘s friends were with the F.B.I. The friends told WERNER, who invited the friends into his school office. WERNER told JUG TWITTY’s friends that the day before (5-31), the headmaster had spoken directly to Prime Suspect JORAN VAN DER SLOOT and Current Suspect PAULUS VAN DER SLOOT in the headmaster’s office and that the headmaster told Prime Suspect JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, “Joran, you need to come clean on what happened.” JUG TWITTY stated that WERNER told his friends that Prime Suspect JORAN VAN DER SLOOT claimed to WERNER on 5-31 that SLOOT and NATALEE engaged in some form of sex, and, he also said that NATALEE may have hit her head while swimming that night. The headmaster also told the friends that Prime Suspect JORAN VAN DER SLOOT and Current Suspect PAULUS VAN DER SLOOT claimed WERNER that the reason that Current Suspect DEEPAK KALPOE’s car could not be seen in the “Holiday Inn” security camera video tapes around 2:00 AM is that “there was a break in the tape.” ((Obviously, the "Holiday Inn dropoff alibi-lies were yet another lie conspiratorially concocted by the Suspects SLOOT’s and KALPOE’s before the early morning of 5-31 because the Suspects never viewed the “Holiday Inn” security cameras recorded video)) JUG TWITTY also said that the ARUBAN Police have interviewed the headmaster.
Source:
http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=407&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=220

I have always wondered HOW they knew  that there was a break in the tape?? Who at HI told them there was a break in the tape and why?

Sunny - thanks for this...I recall this from long ago...This was on Tuesday then...The morning after the family et al arrived Mon p.m.  We know the family & friends reviewed the tape that night, I also wonder who else was present as the tape was reviewed.

Also - do we know for sure there was a break in the tape?  How convenient huh?  Besides, Joran's buddy is it JVC/GVC or whatever, his dad owns the company who provides the cameras & service.


I wonder what in the conversation brought up the need for Joran and Paulus to explain the break in the tape?  Doesn't it seem odd that they would have to try to explain that away - to the headmaster?

I don't think there was a break in the tape.  The night before they were at the HI with Nat's family and I'm sure reviewing the security tapes would be brought up at that time.  Joran and Paulus are already working the cover up and a way to defend the lie they know has been told.  If a break in the tape appeared I'm sure Guido and/or Posner could make that happen if needed.

[SunnyinTX]

Blood: Update & Correction

There was important discussion yesterday re: "blood in Kalpoe car" and I had provided info re: hemident testing.  Though it doesn't happen often, I incorrectly posted the blood testing info, which helped throw discussion off-course.  I have posted previously on this subject long ago, and details slipped mind. The implications of the blood testing and what has been reported are important to case, and I bring more accuracy here:

1. Hemident Testing

A procedure used by law enforcement agencies the world over for crime scene identification of substance as "BLOOD".  Hemident test will positively identify a substance as blood BUT this testing procedure will NOT identify a substance as human vs animal blood.  Hemident kits are widely available and can be purchased on-line.  They are inexpensive, about $10.00 per kit and are often purchased in bulk.  Here is an example:

http://www.odvinc.com/hemidentID/hemident.html

2.  Blood in Kalpoe Car

Early reports in case show that numerous LE on the scene indicated Kalpoe car had blood in back seating area and overhead paneling.  These reports are sourced to Oduber to Twitty, ALE to Twitty, FBI to HT Family and others as well and the timing of these reports vary.  It was finally reported, after Kalpoe car was seized and searched that material was sent to NFI Lab in Holland for testing.  The infamous results have been discussed here: the substance in question was chocolate and cleaning fluid.

The main point is that with hemident test, there was no need to send material to Holland and wait for days for results.  A lab test, like the one described, is needed to determine if the blood was human or animal -- NOT WHETHER IT WAS BLOOD, in the first place.  This is extremely suspicious.  NO LE needs to send material to LAB to determine if it's blood.  So what exactly was sent to Holland for testing?

3.  Bloody Mattress 

After noon on June 5, 2005 -- and subsequent to the early morning arrest of Mickey Johns and Abraham Jones on murder charges -- a bloody mattress was found on Grapefield Beach, close to San Nicolas, Aruba, where Johns & Jones lived.  Numerous news reports were made about the discovery of the bloody mattress, creating the impression that quite obviously Natalee had been killed.

By the end of the day on June 5, ALE was indicating that the mattress contained blood, but it was blood from a dead dog found nearby.

Given the information available, it was IMPOSSIBLE for ALE to arrive at this conclusion with needed level of accuracy in murder investigation.  The only way to determine if the blood on the mattress was human or animal was through a laboratory testing procedure as described above, which could never have produced these results in the time given.

This is also extremely suspicious.  Was this mattress ever entered into evidence?

.

Hi Hammer...thanks for the clarification.....I have never heard of the mattress entered into evidence....cause the LE said it was dog's blood....no testing needed....like so many other things ...such as bones  sitting in desk drawers....the belt that was determined by someone who thought he was a best specialist ...determined it was too old....forget that it had been out in the cruel weather elements of sun, salt water....

[SunnyinTX]

Oh my. Apparently two tragedies in Metro Atlanta  - Duluth AND Powder Springs.

Terribly disturbing.....the world has just gone nuts!!

[shadow]

Exactly San!

[bleachedblack]

Thanks Klaas, good idea, though sometimes the flow of LCD would lead me to think of a
parallel to Shango/Simian and I would post it following the comment. I will try and behave.

[shadow]

PLEASE NOTE:

In an attempt to please everyone  I've changed the name of this thread to LIVELY DISCUSSION (off topic allowed).  In this thead off topic is allowed.  Please do try to keep way off topic in the Monkey Lounge when at all possible.  TIA

I've created 2 new sticky threads:
CASE DISCUSSION THREAD ( no off topic allowed)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1951.0

SHANGO/SIMIAN (who are they and what did they know?)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.0

Thanks Klass!

[JuJu]

<snipped> 

Perhaps it was dogs blood but there is always the possibility it was covering human blood too.  I doubt anything further was done with it after ALE declared it dogs blood.

Infuriating - Isn't it.

I agree, Kimmee, I think they planted the DOG, near the bloody mattress.  Don't think think forensics were ever done on mattress.  It was "disappeared".

Just like all of the other evidence.....bones....fabric...

[blah]

Blood: Update & Correction

There was important discussion yesterday re: "blood in Kalpoe car" and I had provided info re: hemident testing.  Though it doesn't happen often, I incorrectly posted the blood testing info, which helped throw discussion off-course.  I have posted previously on this subject long ago, and details slipped mind. The implications of the blood testing and what has been reported are important to case, and I bring more accuracy here:

1. Hemident Testing

A procedure used by law enforcement agencies the world over for crime scene identification of substance as "BLOOD".  Hemident test will positively identify a substance as blood BUT this testing procedure will NOT identify a substance as human vs animal blood.  Hemident kits are widely available and can be purchased on-line.  They are inexpensive, about $10.00 per kit and are often purchased in bulk.  Here is an example:

http://www.odvinc.com/hemidentID/hemident.html

2.  Blood in Kalpoe Car

Early reports in case show that numerous LE on the scene indicated Kalpoe car had blood in back seating area and overhead paneling.  These reports are sourced to Oduber to Twitty, ALE to Twitty, FBI to HT Family and others as well and the timing of these reports vary.  It was finally reported, after Kalpoe car was seized and searched that material was sent to NFI Lab in Holland for testing.  The infamous results have been discussed here: the substance in question was chocolate and cleaning fluid.

The main point is that with hemident test, there was no need to send material to Holland and wait for days for results.  A lab test, like the one described, is needed to determine if the blood was human or animal -- NOT WHETHER IT WAS BLOOD, in the first place.  This is extremely suspicious.  NO LE needs to send material to LAB to determine if it's blood.  So what exactly was sent to Holland for testing?

3.  Bloody Mattress 

After noon on June 5, 2005 -- and subsequent to the early morning arrest of Mickey Johns and Abraham Jones on murder charges -- a bloody mattress was found on Grapefield Beach, close to San Nicolas, Aruba, where Johns & Jones lived.  Numerous news reports were made about the discovery of the bloody mattress, creating the impression that quite obviously Natalee had been killed.

By the end of the day on June 5, ALE was indicating that the mattress contained blood, but it was blood from a dead dog found nearby.

Given the information available, it was IMPOSSIBLE for ALE to arrive at this conclusion with needed level of accuracy in murder investigation.  The only way to determine if the blood on the mattress was human or animal was through a laboratory testing procedure as described above, which could never have produced these results in the time given.

This is also extremely suspicious.  Was this mattress ever entered into evidence?

.

Re: Blood on the matress

When you have a suspect who makes a statement that one of the other suspects "came with two dogs", wouldnt it be wise to keep the matress even if the blood turned out to be from a dog?

[BTgirl]

PLEASE NOTE:

In an attempt to please everyone  I've changed the name of this thread to LIVELY DISCUSSION (off topic allowed).  In this thead off topic is allowed.  Please do try to keep way off topic in the Monkey Lounge when at all possible.  TIA

I've created 2 new sticky threads:
CASE DISCUSSION THREAD ( no off topic allowed)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1951.0

SHANGO/SIMIAN (who are they and what did they know?)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.0

But where is the all sock monkey sticky thread? You know - the one where ONLY sock monkeys can be discussed all the time? 

[truthseeker2]

PLEASE NOTE:

In an attempt to please everyone  I've changed the name of this thread to LIVELY DISCUSSION (off topic allowed).  In this thead off topic is allowed.  Please do try to keep way off topic in the Monkey Lounge when at all possible.  TIA

I've created 2 new sticky threads:
CASE DISCUSSION THREAD ( no off topic allowed)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1951.0

SHANGO/SIMIAN (who are they and what did they know?)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.0

So which  thread should be used for the Tango??

[shadow]

I just noticed the post counter has stopped counting. 

[shadow]

I just noticed the post counter has stopped counting. 

and of course it started back when I posted that 

[shadow]

PLEASE NOTE:

In an attempt to please everyone  I've changed the name of this thread to LIVELY DISCUSSION (off topic allowed).  In this thead off topic is allowed.  Please do try to keep way off topic in the Monkey Lounge when at all possible.  TIA

I've created 2 new sticky threads:
CASE DISCUSSION THREAD ( no off topic allowed)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1951.0

SHANGO/SIMIAN (who are they and what did they know?)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.0

So which  thread should be used for the Tango??

good question . . .

[SunnyinTX]

The purpose of this thread is to allow those who wish only serious case discussion to have it without wading through off topic chit chat.

Any off topic posted in this thread will be moved or delelted.

thanks....much needed IMO