SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #1

[fierljepper]

<snipped>

Fierljepper…
Dykejumper is overstressing that he is a “newbie” to Shango and Simian, so I am going to assume that for some personal reason, that is what he wants everyone to believe when in fact it is the other way around.

<snipped>

Stom ... I agree.

I suspect that Fierljepper is taking advantage of Shango's theory to further the Aruban agenda of Julia Renfro and her many internet associates ... an agenda that distances Paulus and Joran from implication in the events that empasses the morning when Natalee Holloway went missing and ... directs focus on the MB students ... Natalee's actions and ... Beth's credibility.

Janet


Shango's Riddle
Fierljepper's Interpretation
August 1, 2007
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.0

+++++++++++
 

Janet cum suis,

I actually thought the idea of this forum was to discuss the Simian/Shango texts and to exchange arguments based on content. Why on earth do you continue to accuse me of supporting a conspiracy theory? It really starts to get annoying now. Why not just say what's wrong with my interpretation based on datapoints, rather than qualifying it as "stupid", "it makes me laugh" or "it's only driven by an conspiracy agenda" ?

I really don't understand all the aggression here. OK, I entered with a pretty blunt statement that "it was pretty easy to interpret" and that's certainly not smart move for a complete newbie. But hey, it was just a sincere fresh look and I adjusted that initial view based on some content feedback (e.g. around the ex-boyfriend). That's what a discussion is for.

The main reasons that I finally decided to sign up for the Scared Monkeys forum were:
1. the superior moderation, knowledge and perseverance of Klaasend et al (very impressive)
2. the perception of very strong and warm community (which goes beyond the case)
3. the unwritten culture of welcoming new people to the club (which is refreshing for fora)
 
I really don't understand what I've done wrong other than proposing a provocative idea that apparently wasn't nicely "preaching for the Scared Monkey's choir" and/or offended the "experts that have studied this already to death".

Before I make more enemies, I'm out of here.

I sincerely hope that this forum keeps an open mind for all hypothesis out there, as crazy and as uncomfortable as they might sound.

P.S.
Janet, I'm not picking on you, your post was just the drip that flooded my bucket...

[truthseeker2]

Fierljepper,

First ...and foremost, if you had read Shango and Simian at all you would know that Dirty Hand was identified and confirmed as 'Chief of Polis' which was Van Der Stratten.

Shango Says:June 27th, 2005 at 4:00 am
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting


Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.

Second...there was no 'ex-boyfriend'.  Just because some of the PR tagalongs in Aruba have thrown that out there does not make it so.  If by 'ex-boyfriend' you mean someone she met in Aruba a few days before then you might have said so in your first post.  Unless that person was Van Der Stratten, your theory was shot out of the water from the beginning.

Third...People at SM are tired of the same old junk coming from some of the sites that seem to think Joran is innocent and Beth did this to her own child, or Natalee ran away.  You won't find too many people here that hold those opinions because there is no proof what so ever that they are true.  Joran and the Kalpoes, on the other hand, have lied and been caught at it.  If they are innocent they brought this srutiny on themselves.

Now, this thread was to discuss Shango and Simian.  You want everyone to analyze your post and if they disagree you want them to refute your post with facts, but you blew in the first line.  Sorry, but you did.  If you got your feelings hurt and are leaving, then so be it.  If not, then how about discussing some of the posts others have placed here for discussion.  I haven't seen you do that.  You only want to discuss yours and you want to do it in hit-and-run style.  Why is that?

[Stom]

As for the Babylonians, do you think it would be correct the this term could apply to a "ruling class"?
[/quote]

It could very well be.  And defining who conforms the “ruling class” would have to be the next question.  I see the “ruling class” as being integrated by three distinctive groups:  those that acquire might by nature of internal political and governmental power, the confederation of businesses in the island’s economic mainstay and the Mansurs, assuming that by ruling class we are referring to is the social group that sets political policy.  But keep in mind that this is just an inference from inconclusive, iffy information.

I have come to know of Dutch hotel managers in Aruba, Dutch investors in the tourism industry, Dutch judicial officials, Dutch lawyers, Dutch Police Chiefs, Dutch teachers…possibly the Dutch are an elite in Aruba, not because of economic and political power, but because they are the experts, the highly skilled group, the technocrats. 

I don’t know if enjoying superior expertise and intellectual, social, or economic status makes you a member of the “ruling class” in Aruba, or if for all practical purposes there are two ruling classes, one that exerts “internal” authority and the other, that influences from the perspective of defense and foreign affairs.  But honestly, I doubt a group of Dutch private citizens could exert significant influence indirectly, via Kingdom matters.

Also, I don’t know what Simian meant by Babylonian when he first used the term.  But it seems illogically that a person educated in a Dutch system would not know what Babylonian means in the context of historical reference of The Netherlands, unless evolution has changed the significance of the term and presently, it conveys something else in Dutch/Aruban culture.

[Stom]

P.S.2
Tip. Try your nickname on Babelfish with conversion set "Dutch -> English"

I don't have to translate it.  It was chosen expressly.

[truthseeker2]

Also, I don’t know what Simian meant by Babylonian when he first used the term.  But it seems illogically that a person educated in a Dutch system would not know what Babylonian means in the context of historical reference of The Netherlands, unless evolution has changed the significance of the term and presently, it conveys something else in Dutch/Aruban culture.

Tell me more.  I understand Babylonian from the perspective of Goggle  , but not having any experience with the Dutch or with Aruba I struggle to precisely identify the reference.  Can you add anything else to this?

[Tamikosmom]

Fierljepper ... I consider Shango's riddle a theory with a gimmick ... a good theory but nevertheless a theory.

Fierljepper ... you provide no backup for your interpretation.  Your interpretation only goes to further the agenda of those who are distancing Paulus and Joran from implication and ... shifting the focus of blame onto the MB students ... Natalee and ... Beth.  Shango is not a god and ... his/her riddle should not be interpretation in a vacuum.  When interpretating Shango's riddle ... the words of those those with a foundational inside knowledge of what is taking place within the investigation should be taken into consideration.

Sincerely, Janet


ARUBAN AUTHORITIES IMPLICATE MAIN SUSPECTS IN NATALEE HOLLOW CASE

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/07/aruban-authorities-implicate-main.html

[Tamikosmom]

Janet cum suis

<snipped>

I assume the "cum suis" is an endearing salutation. 

TIA

Janet

[truthseeker2]

Janet cum suis

<snipped>

I assume the "cum suis" is an endearing salutation. 

TIA

Janet

LOL.  Probably depends on what kind of website your see it on.

[Stom]

You're clearly not reading my posts.

I'm not overstressing that I'm a newbie, I was just replying to a question from someone who implicated that I was a Newbie.

Right….I carried-over the times you stated in your Scrux “colluded” posts, that you were new to the NH case. I apologize.

P.S. 1
Funny that you use the word Dyke instead of Ditch (I wasn't aware of that second meaning). In NL we put a "finger in the dyke" and we "jump over ditches" (with a stick or pole).

Dyke Jumper or Ditch Jumper: a matter of regional semanthics.

http://tinyurl.com/25usen

[sharon]

Janet cum suis

<snipped>

I assume the "cum suis" is an endearing salutation. 

TIA

Janet

Hi janet 

Whatever it means...this is an English speaking board (so we've been told).

So unless it means 'tamikosmom is wonderful' ............and the poster just doesn't know how to say it in English.................then what you stated about what we all unfortunately had to be subjected to in our former 'pro Natalee' site may be trying to break through here

(And by the way -- using our friend 'babelfish' -- this poster is definitely NOT saying 'tamiskosmom is wonderful'.)


BOYCOTT ARUBA
JUSTICE FOR NATALEE HOLLOWAY

[Stom]

Dykejumper,

If you feel that either my “postulate” regarding your longevity on the NH case or my calling you Dykejumper has the intention to direct unpleasant provocations as a results of your comments, I can assure you, that is not so.  So come back and keep doing what you were… but possibly you may want to edit the introductory phrase of your initial comment “All, Appreciate your challenges …”.
---------------------------------------------

Janet,

Since Ditchjumper is upset and he may not want to reply just yet, “cum” means “with” in Latin and “suis” is the plural possessive form of she or he.  Janet cum suis means Janet with hers = Janet and associates.

[Kermit]

It seems we are still arguing the 5th suspect.  Depends on whom you listen to as to the identity.  For any new posters reading, I will try to rehash this topic.  Anyone feel free to lead in a new direction.  I am  open to any ideas.

Paulus van der Sloot was the 5th suspect arrested.
1. Joran
2. deepak
3. satish
4. steve croes
5. paulus van der sloot

Lorenzo was brought in and questioned, max arrendz provided an alibi

[Buckeye]

It seems we are still arguing the 5th suspect.  Depends on whom you listen to as to the identity.  For any new posters reading, I will try to rehash this topic.  Anyone feel free to lead in a new direction.  I am  open to any ideas.

Paulus van der Sloot was the 5th suspect arrested.
1. Joran
2. deepak
3. satish
4. steve croes
5. paulus van der sloot

Lorenzo was brought in and questioned, max arrendz provided an alibi

Guido gave several statements.  Was he ever a suspect, before his arrest in Holland??

[Lala'sMom]

It seems we are still arguing the 5th suspect.  Depends on whom you listen to as to the identity.  For any new posters reading, I will try to rehash this topic.  Anyone feel free to lead in a new direction.  I am  open to any ideas.

Paulus van der Sloot was the 5th suspect arrested.
1. Joran
2. deepak
3. satish
4. steve croes
5. paulus van der sloot

Lorenzo was brought in and questioned, max arrendz provided an alibi

I understand where you are coming from, but if you read the early June 2005 archives you will clearly see that everyone  posting from Aruba implicates Lorenzo as the 5th suspect.  It's still conjecture, since there is not a definitive statement that places Paulus as the 5th suspect. The earliest posters placed Lorenzo right in the middle of this entire scenario. It is mentioned several times by posters such as Native Lingo and Americaninaruba.  I have wavered on both as being the 5th.  From reading the early posts, it indicates that it is Lorenzo long before Simian ever posted about the 5th suspect.  To me being a suspect doesn't mean the same as being arrested.  A person that needs to provide an alibi would be a suspect as well.  I am still on the fence with this one.

Name: Simian | E-mail: xx | IP: xx
The party-goers said the 5th one was with them. He was the host. How could he have left? Did Paulus run home from the casino after 8 PM to have a party?
Posted Jun 22, 5:03 PM | Edit Comment | Delete Comment | Edit Post “Beth Twitty and the Van der Sloots' Meet” | View Post
191.   Name: Simian | E-mail: xx | IP: xx
The 5th suspect was the boyfriend from earlier in the week. Would Natalee have been interested in Paulus? 
Posted Jun 22, 5:00 PM

[mrs. red]

well Lala's I can answer that Natalee wouldn't have been interested in Paulus... that's gross!   

Just wanted to read up on what y'all had figured out....

[Lala'sMom]

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:52 pm   Subject: Aruba Dirty Police
Posted by VMS

Lorenzo had 3 houses:
his mansion Savaneta 172, Savaneta (Jaraweg),
his concrete country block house, near Arikok Park near Hooiberg,
and the mansion his mother lived in, which is the ONLY ONE they searched, apx June 16th?:
SAVANETA 123-K, SAVANETA, ARUBA

Lorenzo also had an alibi for why he could not have been out with Natalee:
Max Arendz (the race car driver and his friend) said Lorenzo was hosting a (basically all night) party at his mansion which Max attended, which gave Lorenzo his air tight alibi.

IF the party that Paulus and the elders attended was at Lorenzo's house, and Natalee was delivered there, Lorenzo no longer has an air tight alibi does he.

This was posted by VMS in the Aruba Police thread referenced above, don't know if it helps.

OS

This is part of a post by Ospainter concerning Lorenzo.

[Lala'sMom]

well Lala's I can answer that Natalee wouldn't have been interested in Paulus... that's gross!   

Just wanted to read up on what y'all had figured out....

I agree with you, Mrs. Red. Just pointing that out as others indicate a possibility that Paulus was the 5th suspect.  Natalee would not have been interested in him at all, Lorenzo maybe.  Besides, it is very obvious that Natalee was not interested and did not know Paulus from the casino video.  I believe it was Paulus in the video for two reasons...if it wasn't we would already know who it was. The pro-Sloot crowd would have debunked that one very fast if it wasn't him and plus the hairline comparison clinched it for me...it's Paulus sitting beside Natalee in the casino.  Joran is looking all smart by winning a fixed hand for those girls and Paulus is bragging that's his kid to Natalee.  They were softening up the girls to be able to gain their confidence and take one of them. That is why I do not think the 5th suspect is Paulus.  I simply don't see Natalee as attracted to him in any way...not with so many  other young men within her reach. 

Just to be fair, many of our code talker thought the 5th suspect was indeed Paulus.  I had many a discussion with them on this very subject.  I don't know what to think anymore. The early Aruban posters implictaed Lorenzo early on for some reason...one of which was due to his famous raves. JMO.

[shadow]

It seems we are still arguing the 5th suspect.  Depends on whom you listen to as to the identity.  For any new posters reading, I will try to rehash this topic.  Anyone feel free to lead in a new direction.  I am  open to any ideas.

Paulus van der Sloot was the 5th suspect arrested.
1. Joran
2. deepak
3. satish
4. steve croes
5. paulus van der sloot

Lorenzo was brought in and questioned, max arrendz provided an alibi

I understand where you are coming from, but if you read the early June 2005 archives you will clearly see that everyone  posting from Aruba implicates Lorenzo as the 5th suspect.  It's still conjecture, since there is not a definitive statement that places Paulus as the 5th suspect. The earliest posters placed Lorenzo right in the middle of this entire scenario. It is mentioned several times by posters such as Native Lingo and Americaninaruba.  I have wavered on both as being the 5th.  From reading the early posts, it indicates that it is Lorenzo long before Simian ever posted about the 5th suspect.  To me being a suspect doesn't mean the same as being arrested.  A person that needs to provide an alibi would be a suspect as well.  I am still on the fence with this one.

Name: Simian | E-mail: xx | IP: xx
The party-goers said the 5th one was with them. He was the host. How could he have left? Did Paulus run home from the casino after 8 PM to have a party?
Posted Jun 22, 5:03 PM | Edit Comment | Delete Comment | Edit Post “Beth Twitty and the Van der Sloots' Meet” | View Post
191.   Name: Simian | E-mail: xx | IP: xx
The 5th suspect was the boyfriend from earlier in the week. Would Natalee have been interested in Paulus? 
Posted Jun 22, 5:00 PM

Hi Lala's . . . hate I haven't been around much to tango in the new ballroom, but I wanted to add my 2cents to this discussion.

What if there were actually two parties going on that night. The party at Lorenzo's and the the party for the elders hosted by PVDS at his home or in one of the hotels. There was a lot of discussion early on regarding a secret room or area in one of the hotels, the Wyndham?, reserved for special parties.

I am suspicious of the fact that some of the early Aruban posters pointed to Lorenzo. There were a lot of other misdirection we were unaware of at the time. IMO. He would be an easy target given the drugs and reputation for rave parties, and it wouldn't draw attention to the true ugliness that they don't want anyone to see and certainly don't want to expose the real players.

The boyfriend from earlier in the week comment I can't explain. I remember some comments early on that she was seen having lunch with someone during the trip rumored to be Lorenzo, but IIRC that rumor was debunked. These are tough codes to crack, but I am leaning towards Paulus being the 5th suspect.

[shadow]

Tony's Post
From the initials used it is clear that the friends are Steve Croes, Kalpoe brothers, Freddy A. and Michael Dompig.

Anyone know who the BL Gang is referring to??

The protectors are obviously Karin Jansen, Gerold Dompig and Van Der Stratten. IMO!

So who would be the owners?

[Lala'sMom]

The early posters, and I do mean within the first week, did not have the inside info that would have them assist in the cover up.  In fact, the ones I read had little to do with the investigation at all. The only person that could possibly be accused of assisting in the cover up would have been Native Lingo.  She was an insider.  The very earliest comments about parties and drugs involved Lorenzo.  That is what I am going by, not saying it's right, just saying that is what I have observed.  I know there are many that think I am way off base here and that Lorenzo had nothing to do with this at all.  I just think we should explore this as a possible scenario. 

Lorenzo was known to throw the parties at his houses. 
Lorenzo was the drug dealer of choice on the island.
Lorenzo could have some connection to the Sloots.
Lorenzo was kept out of the loop early on.  When his name began to come up in the beginning it was then quickly shushed into oblivion.
Lorenzo, until recently was the mystery man of the hour.

I can't connect the dots because I am too dumb in that regard.  I wish I could, but I can't. However, Tylergal has long contended that what happened to Natalee happened at the HI.  What she says makes sense too.  The alibi of bringing her back to the HI could have been concocted because they knew she could have been seen there. There is a history of some sort with that place.  She was targeted in their casino.  I could go on, but you get the message.  Both scenarios are highly possile.  Now, we have to find the one that is most probable.