SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #1

[SuzieQ]

I didn't think I knew how, apparently I do. Learn something new every day. LOL

[Lala'sMom]

Lala

Who was with Joran at the Greta interview( or one of the interviews, I forget) Was it Mighty T or his brother? I found a connection between Mighty T and Freddy's lawyer.

http://www.island-temptations.com/old/spring04/story5/

Diana Emerencia (Lady Eyes) was Freddy's lawyer.

Claudius Phillips (Mighty T.) could put words together like Shango.

Sorry I don't know how to put the link in, so you can just click on it.

I don't remember who was with Joran.  I bet Klaas does. Thanks for the link.

[Stom]

You and I are thinking alike on this one.  I always worked on the assumption that Simian was referring to Lorenzo as the 5th suspect.  If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking, then you would have to believe ALE was of the belief that Lorenzo was involved.  Yet, they were not very aggessive in their pursuit of him.  The assumption that he was at home all night was due to a friend providing that alibi.  Even if he was at home that does not mean that Natalee was not brought to his home.

“If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking,”
The Simian was telling what he was informed, 2nd hand, 3rd hand, maybe even more hands between the original report and his comment to the board, plus he additionally adorned the information with his own personal views.  We don’t know how unfactual the reported facts were.

“...then you would have to believe ALE was of the believe that Lorenzo was involved.”
Undoubtedly, at that moment in time, ALE, the Simian and many more thought that Lorenzo was involved in the disappearance.  I am pretty sure that another poster from Aruba talked about Lorenzo before the Simian did.  That poster referred to a social outcast from Savaneta that drove around in a loud blue van.  I guess that others in addition to ALE, Simian and his informant, talked about Lorenzo as being involved… sounds like profiling.

“Yet, they were not very aggressive in their pursuit of him.”
If Lorenzo had an “airtight alibi” and all the partygoers were with him until Monday morning, then, what’s the sense in pursuing him?

“Even if he was at home doesn’t mean that Natalee was not brought to his home”.
True, Lorenzo being at home is not evidence of Natalee not being there.  But I have not heard or read of any “significant source” placing Natalee close to Lorenzo’s party, so why should we keep processing bogus data?

[Lala'sMom]

You and I are thinking alike on this one.  I always worked on the assumption that Simian was referring to Lorenzo as the 5th suspect.  If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking, then you would have to believe ALE was of the belief that Lorenzo was involved.  Yet, they were not very aggessive in their pursuit of him.  The assumption that he was at home all night was due to a friend providing that alibi.  Even if he was at home that does not mean that Natalee was not brought to his home.

“If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking,”
The Simian was telling what he was informed, 2nd hand, 3rd hand, maybe even more hands between the original report and his comment to the board, plus he additionally adorned the information with his own personal views.  We don’t know how unfactual the reported facts were. True, only if you believe that Simian WAS NOT ALE.  Since it has been speculated that Simian could indeed be Clyde Burke, then this is not 2nd or 3rd hand info.  It is coming from a source that is inside.

“...then you would have to believe ALE was of the believe that Lorenzo was involved.”
Undoubtedly, at that moment in time, ALE, the Simian and many more thought that Lorenzo was involved in the disappearance.  I am pretty sure that another poster from Aruba talked about Lorenzo before the Simian did.  That poster referred to a social outcast from Savaneta that drove around in a loud blue van.  I guess that others in addition to ALE, Simian and his informant, talked about Lorenzo as being involved… sounds like profiling. I think the reason this is still bandied about is because Lorenzo was talked about on the blogs and forums very early in the case. Early enough that those who were in the know suspected his involvement.  If they were privy to info, then his name came up in some form.

“Yet, they were not very aggressive in their pursuit of him.”
If Lorenzo had an “airtight alibi” and all the partygoers were with him until Monday morning, then, what’s the sense in pursuing him? Simian clearly states that the 5th suspect has an alibi.  He also goes on to state that others turned their heads so a not to provide additional info concerning the alibi. This tells me that Lorenzo, whether involved or not, wields some form of power in Aruba.  Thus his drug dealings with more dangerous people.

“Even if he was at home doesn’t mean that Natalee was not brought to his home”.
True, Lorenzo being at home is not evidence of Natalee not being there.  But I have not heard or read of any “significant source” placing Natalee close to Lorenzo’s party, so why should we keep processing bogus data? There is not evidence that JK2 killed Natalee and disposed of her body....your point being? Actually, Shango never mentions Lorenzo.  There are posters that try to find out about Lorenzo from Shango, but he never takes the bait.

[Ree]

You and I are thinking alike on this one.  I always worked on the assumption that Simian was referring to Lorenzo as the 5th suspect.  If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking, then you would have to believe ALE was of the belief that Lorenzo was involved.  Yet, they were not very aggessive in their pursuit of him.  The assumption that he was at home all night was due to a friend providing that alibi.  Even if he was at home that does not mean that Natalee was not brought to his home.

“If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking,”
The Simian was telling what he was informed, 2nd hand, 3rd hand, maybe even more hands between the original report and his comment to the board, plus he additionally adorned the information with his own personal views.  We don’t know how unfactual the reported facts were. True, only if you believe that Simian WAS NOT ALE.  Since it has been speculated that Simian could indeed be Clyde Burke, then this is not 2nd or 3rd hand info.  It is coming from a source that is inside. I'm not sure I agree with this.  He was not aware of the wiretap on Paulus.  So perhaps he was inside and close enough to know some of what was going on, but not all.

“...then you would have to believe ALE was of the believe that Lorenzo was involved.”
Undoubtedly, at that moment in time, ALE, the Simian and many more thought that Lorenzo was involved in the disappearance.  I am pretty sure that another poster from Aruba talked about Lorenzo before the Simian did.  That poster referred to a social outcast from Savaneta that drove around in a loud blue van.  I guess that others in addition to ALE, Simian and his informant, talked about Lorenzo as being involved… sounds like profiling. I think the reason this is still bandied about is because Lorenzo was talked about on the blogs and forums very early in the case. Early enough that those who were in the know suspected his involvement.  If they were privy to info, then his name came up in some form.

“Yet, they were not very aggressive in their pursuit of him.”
If Lorenzo had an “airtight alibi” and all the partygoers were with him until Monday morning, then, what’s the sense in pursuing him? Simian clearly states that the 5th suspect has an alibi.  He also goes on to state that others turned their heads so a not to provide additional info concerning the alibi. This tells me that Lorenzo, whether involved or not, wields some form of power in Aruba.  Thus his drug dealings with more dangerous people.

“Even if he was at home doesn’t mean that Natalee was not brought to his home”.
True, Lorenzo being at home is not evidence of Natalee not being there.  But I have not heard or read of any “significant source” placing Natalee close to Lorenzo’s party, so why should we keep processing bogus data? There is not evidence that JK2 killed Natalee and disposed of her body....your point being? Actually, Shango never mentions Lorenzo.  There are posters that try to find out about Lorenzo from Shango, but he never takes the bait.

[truthseeker2]

You and I are thinking alike on this one.  I always worked on the assumption that Simian was referring to Lorenzo as the 5th suspect.  If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking, then you would have to believe ALE was of the belief that Lorenzo was involved.  Yet, they were not very aggessive in their pursuit of him.  The assumption that he was at home all night was due to a friend providing that alibi.  Even if he was at home that does not mean that Natalee was not brought to his home.

“If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking,”
The Simian was telling what he was informed, 2nd hand, 3rd hand, maybe even more hands between the original report and his comment to the board, plus he additionally adorned the information with his own personal views.  We don’t know how unfactual the reported facts were.

“...then you would have to believe ALE was of the believe that Lorenzo was involved.”
Undoubtedly, at that moment in time, ALE, the Simian and many more thought that Lorenzo was involved in the disappearance.  I am pretty sure that another poster from Aruba talked about Lorenzo before the Simian did.  That poster referred to a social outcast from Savaneta that drove around in a loud blue van.  I guess that others in addition to ALE, Simian and his informant, talked about Lorenzo as being involved… sounds like profiling.

“Yet, they were not very aggressive in their pursuit of him.”
If Lorenzo had an “airtight alibi” and all the partygoers were with him until Monday morning, then, what’s the sense in pursuing him?

“Even if he was at home doesn’t mean that Natalee was not brought to his home”.
True, Lorenzo being at home is not evidence of Natalee not being there.  But I have not heard or read of any “significant source” placing Natalee close to Lorenzo’s party, so why should we keep processing bogus data?

[truthseeker2]

You and I are thinking alike on this one.  I always worked on the assumption that Simian was referring to Lorenzo as the 5th suspect.  If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking, then you would have to believe ALE was of the belief that Lorenzo was involved.  Yet, they were not very aggessive in their pursuit of him.  The assumption that he was at home all night was due to a friend providing that alibi.  Even if he was at home that does not mean that Natalee was not brought to his home.

“If Simian was telling us what the ALE was thinking,”
The Simian was telling what he was informed, 2nd hand, 3rd hand, maybe even more hands between the original report and his comment to the board, plus he additionally adorned the information with his own personal views.  We don’t know how unfactual the reported facts were.

“...then you would have to believe ALE was of the believe that Lorenzo was involved.”
Undoubtedly, at that moment in time, ALE, the Simian and many more thought that Lorenzo was involved in the disappearance.  I am pretty sure that another poster from Aruba talked about Lorenzo before the Simian did.  That poster referred to a social outcast from Savaneta that drove around in a loud blue van.  I guess that others in addition to ALE, Simian and his informant, talked about Lorenzo as being involved… sounds like profiling.

“Yet, they were not very aggressive in their pursuit of him.”
If Lorenzo had an “airtight alibi” and all the partygoers were with him until Monday morning, then, what’s the sense in pursuing him?

“Even if he was at home doesn’t mean that Natalee was not brought to his home”.
True, Lorenzo being at home is not evidence of Natalee not being there.  But I have not heard or read of any “significant source” placing Natalee close to Lorenzo’s party, so why should we keep processing bogus data?

Probably because it has been very difficult to determine what is bogus and what is not.  The thread is about Simian and Shango and who they may have been posting about.  That's the only reason.

Personally, I have not idea if Lorenzo is involved.  He was questioned, therefore he will be discussed.  And based on Simian's posts, it appears that he was speaking about Lorenzo.

[Kermit]

It does not say the 5th person arrested.  It says the 5th suspect.  That is my reasoning.   Which is obviously flawed.

Not flawed - we are all  just thinking outloud


If we consider suspects then we have to consider those that are suspects:

Is Lorenzo a suspect? I know he was brought in for questioning, but never heard him as a suspect.

Why would a witness need to provide an alibi?  Only a suspect would need to do that.

Then is Andre Menses and everyone else that made statements - suspects?

[Kermit]

Proof the cover-up began early on as we know now that the lies that Natalee was in love with a Dutch boy was started online by scubajap.

http://rjames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=842

Reports of a newspaper article published 9/28/05 in "Solo di Pueblo" say an Aruban cab driver transported Natalee Holloway a friend and 2 guys in his cab the Friday before she went missing. The guys were apparantly angry at Natalee because she said she had fallen in love with a Dutch boy (not Joran) she met on Aruba.Could this be the "someone" she met earlier in the week that Joran thinks Natalee ran away with?

[Kermit]

[Kermit]

[Kermit]

Forgot to add the names to those two pictures above:

Michael Biba Lekker Gang Leader

[sharon]

luv u kermie 

[Stom]

True, only if you believe that Simian WAS NOT ALE.  Since it has been speculated that Simian could indeed be Clyde Burke, then this is not 2nd or 3rd hand info.  It is coming from a source that is inside.

If Simian is Burke and Burke had first hand info, he wouldn’t have had to wait for phone calls in order to report developments. 

Simian clearly states that the 5th suspect has an alibi.  He also goes on to state that others turned their heads so a not to provide additional info concerning the alibi...

I read the Simian posts "Donated by Enigma" version and nowhere have I found mention of the above.

There is not evidence that JK2 killed Natalee and disposed of her body....your point being? A

If any “significant source” (member of the family, hired private investigator, self-appointed friend of the family, lawyer), had the slightest suspicion or information pertaining to Natalee being at Lorenzo’s party, we would still be hearing about it. 

[Stom]

Probably because it has been very difficult to determine what is bogus and what is not.  The thread is about Simian and Shango and who they may have been posting about.  That's the only reason.

Personally, I have not idea if Lorenzo is involved.  He was questioned, therefore he will be discussed.  And based on Simian's posts, it appears that he was speaking about Lorenzo.

I understand.  But once one knows with a pretty high degree of certainty that a route is a cul-de-sac, one can either keep going back and forth or exit, to look for an alternative road. 

At one point one has to be willing to conclude that Lorenzo is no longer a suspect candidate, given the “airtight” alibi, the developments of the case post Simian and that people that possess more direct information than we do -like family and pro-family communicators- have not placed Natalee at his place the night she disappeared.

Involving Lorenzo is an additional variable that enhances the narrative aspects of the case, but doesn’t contribute to clarifying critical events surrounding the disappearance.

[Lala'sMom]

It does not say the 5th person arrested.  It says the 5th suspect.  That is my reasoning.   Which is obviously flawed.

Not flawed - we are all  just thinking outloud


If we consider suspects then we have to consider those that are suspects:

Is Lorenzo a suspect? I know he was brought in for questioning, but never heard him as a suspect.

Why would a witness need to provide an alibi?  Only a suspect would need to do that.

Then is Andre Menses and everyone else that made statements - suspects?

Were they asked to provide alibi for the night in question or were they simply asked to confirm or deny certain things?  If you think the person Simian is referring to as the 5th suspect is Paulus...then you have to say also that he was the so called boyfriend from earlier in the week. I know there is no earlier in the week because they were only there for a few days, but if you discuss Simian and Shango you have to go on what they are saying and Simian clearly is saying a boyfriend from earlier in the week.  I think the term boyfriend is another way of saying a guy friend.  There is evidence that Natalee did indeed have some type of contact with a person outside their group.  I think it's in a 302.  If this is true, do you not think that had it been Paulus we would know about it by now?  I think whomever it was, was not someone that those kids could readily identify at the time.  This is of course my reasoning from all these months of just plain thinking about it all.  As I said...it is most likely flawed. There were certain people that would be asked for an alibi and those people would be suspects.  Doesn't mean they were arrested or charged with any thing.


BTW I don't necessarily agree that Simian was ALE...I will just leave it there for now.

[Lala'sMom]

True, only if you believe that Simian WAS NOT ALE.  Since it has been speculated that Simian could indeed be Clyde Burke, then this is not 2nd or 3rd hand info.  It is coming from a source that is inside.

If Simian is Burke and Burke had first hand info, he wouldn’t have had to wait for phone calls in order to report developments. 

Simian clearly states that the 5th suspect has an alibi.  He also goes on to state that others turned their heads so a not to provide additional info concerning the alibi...

I read the Simian posts "Donated by Enigma" version and nowhere have I found mention of the above.

There is not evidence that JK2 killed Natalee and disposed of her body....your point being? A

If any “significant source” (member of the family, hired private investigator, self-appointed friend of the family, lawyer), had the slightest suspicion or information pertaining to Natalee being at Lorenzo’s party, we would still be hearing about it. 

It's obvious you and I will never agree on this so I am not going to pursue it any more.  Simian clearly states the raves need to be pinched.  That tells me they were there and knew what happened.  To me that is the same as turning their heads to the truth.  I am not the person that postulated that Burke was Simian that came from elsewhere. I have never claimed that I believed that Burke was Simian. I have never claimed that I believe any of this stuff...it's just interesting to compare what was happening to what they have stated.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  Simian is the only one that mentions a 5th suspect, so I am confused what you mean it isn't there.

 I think I am hanging up my tango shoes, this thread is wearing thin on me and I am tired maybe someone else will argue the point with you. Lorenzo was clearly suspected early on.  You choose what you will.  I can't prove it anymore than I can prove that Shango was not on Aruba and was a total idiot.  The entire point is to discuss it, I see there is no sense in trying to dissuade you from your point.  To each his own. 

[Lala'sMom]

Just one more thing....everything in this case is not as cut and dried as some think.  I know there are those that love the KISS theory, but the more I see the more I don't think it can apply here.  JMO

[Kermit]

luv u kermie 

awwww sucks. love you too.

[Kermit]

[b]OH LALA'smom - I FOUND SOMETHING FOR YOU - THAT SAYS - YOU ARE CORRECTOMUNDO![/b]

This was from the question/answer that Tito Lacle did at SM. When asked about Lorenzo being brought in for questioning. The question was asked by I Hear Shango about Lorenzo being brought in and this is Tito's reply[/b]


IamTito
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Location: aruba
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject:
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shango..

He was considered a possible suspect..