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Author Topic: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #1  (Read 1052497 times)
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2007, 01:41:15 AM »

Who is the 5th suspect? If you do any research on the FP or in the forum during this time, you learn that Simian is not the person that introduces the 5th suspect.  It is highly discussed by various Aruban posters as being Lorenzo.  I am still unclear.  But one thing is obvious Lorenzo is the one that was having the party.  Not a boyfriend that flew into Aruba.  Tell me how a total stranger to Aruba could have pulled off a last minute party?  Simian is referring to what everyone on Aruba has been talking about...the 5th person arrested.  It is either Paulus or Lorenzo. 
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2007, 01:47:30 AM »

When did the imposter show up?

Are you talking about Simian's imposter, the supposed doppelganger?
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2007, 01:49:39 AM »

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:29 pm
I did not say an ex. Do you people read? I not into repeating myself.


Just in case anyone doubts me...even Simian tells you he is not speaking about an EX boyfriend. 
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Tibrogargan
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2007, 01:55:49 AM »

As Natalee only arrived on Aruba on Thursday sometime I still puzzle over the "earlier in the week" comments. 
All of the suppositions seem to relate to a much longer timescale than Thursday to Sunday - actually very early Monday morning when she was last seen in the company of the three goons.
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« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2007, 01:57:49 AM »

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:29 pm
I did not say an ex. Do you people read? I not into repeating myself.


Just in case anyone doubts me...even Simian tells you he is not speaking about an EX boyfriend. 

We have been over the fact that this could have been another blond girl mistaken as Natalee when remembered after the fact?
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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2007, 02:03:56 AM »

And now for my third strike :

How difficult would it be to copy the recent posts we all made on Shango/Simian before the forum change and possibly even the great discussion in June when we had our top attendance, and load them into this thread.  There were some really good theories put forward and it would be great if they could be here as well.
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Ree
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2007, 06:13:22 AM »

Who is the 5th suspect? If you do any research on the FP or in the forum during this time, you learn that Simian is not the person that introduces the 5th suspect.  It is highly discussed by various Aruban posters as being Lorenzo.  I am still unclear.  But one thing is obvious Lorenzo is the one that was having the party.  Not a boyfriend that flew into Aruba.  Tell me how a total stranger to Aruba could have pulled off a last minute party?  Simian is referring to what everyone on Aruba has been talking about...the 5th person arrested.  It is either Paulus or Lorenzo. 
Tib,
I don't know who you were replying to, but I took the 5th suspect line from the Simian posts in the Simian thread.  I though Klass put them there.
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Ree
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« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2007, 06:15:14 AM »

When did the imposter show up?

Are you talking about Simian's imposter, the supposed doppelganger?

Yes.  I was reading through some of the Simian posts in the Simian thread and wasn't sure which ones to discount.  Seems to me those late June posts were somebody else.
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2007, 10:31:11 AM »

Ree
I will try to have a tango session tonight around 8 P.M. CDT.  If you are able to join me, please do.  I will try to help you as best I can.  The thing about the doppelganger (that is the correct term) is this...the only thing that makes them different from the original Simian as the location of the IP address.  That is something the only the Admin can elaborate on I suppose. 
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2007, 10:36:41 AM »

Ree
There is a thread "Simian posts (real, not fake) on page two of the Natalee Holloway section.  Take a look at those, Klaas says those are all from the same IP address. They read a little differently than the others.


Tibro
If I were as smart as Klaas I would know how to find all those posts and bring them in here, but alas, I am not that smart.  My search and find abilities are poor at best. I would like to have those from the other night as well.
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truthseeker2
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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2007, 11:15:52 AM »

I have read Simian and Shango to death and I can tell you Simain was repeating what the ALE was guessing at.  Why do people keep saying "the jealous boyfriend from earlier in the week", yet no has any idea who that person was.  Not one picture, not one name.  Just some lame reference to a kid that liked Natalee back in the 9th grade which was a bogus and typical lie coming from the disinformation brigade.

The cover up began immediately and Simian was towing the line with ALE.

Well Truthseeker, I guess the name that pops up in my mind is that of Jeremy Brown. He's often referred to as the ex-boyfriend of Natalee. He was in the CnC's that night as well and even danced with Natalee for a while. There's also a persisting rumor that he didn't fly back with the other students on May 30th (just for some more free giggles -> this is also stated in Joran's book...). There are also stories that this has been falsified by American Airlines.

There's also the boy who yelled at Natalee to get out off Deepak's car and the theory that the reason she actually got into the car was to make some guy jealous.

So, if Simian was repeating what the ALE was guessing at, that doesn't rule out that they were onto something. I actually like this Simian guy, since he at least provided some counterweight against the incredibly biased US media/forum hypes that were created around this case from day one (I know that I'm not "preaching for the choir" here at Scared Monkeys by saying this... Cool). The ALE weren't allowed any access into the rapidly closed MB student community (the maze). Only interviewed by the FBI. This to the frustration of the Aruban investigators.

I'm really surprised that Simian et al, had developed this hypothesis already so early in the game (3 weeks after she'd gone missing), when all the media attention was only focused on J2K and their lies. He also knows weird details about "killing his own dogs", which never has been brought in connection to Joran.

In any criminal case, it's very logical to first look for people with a motive as well as the opportunity to commit a crime. An ex-boyfriend typically is a likely suspect to have a motive (just read the newspapers) and I wouldn't be surprised that he actually wasn't at a party that night (covered by his friends), but spotted Joran and Natalee at the beach,followed them and killed Natalee after Joran had left (or when he was still there and was threatened by Jeremy so he fled the scene barefoot. However this would mean Joran is innocent and would provoke the question why Joran didn't "rat him out").

Quote
But for giggles, let's say there WAS a 'boyfriend' from earlier in the week.  Why has Joron or the Kalpoes ratted him out?  Why did the lie about dropping her off at the HI and don't give me any of that "they panicked" bs.  Why did they say she hit her head not only in that lie, but in the lies Joran was telling at school two days later when conveying yet a different story.  It would be easier to rat out the "boyfriend from earlier in the week" that to tell all these lies.

Indeed. Unless Joran and that ex-boyfriend, for what ever reason got rid of the body together after an encounter/fight on the beach. Joran has told best friend Freddy about "they" were at the beach and couldn't bring back Natalee from unconsciousness. I'm absolutely with you that Joran knows more about what happened that night at the beach and either he has something to conceal or he is threatened in such a way that he's not allowed to talk. There's no other explanation for so many lies. I've posted a theory at Scrux that Satish returned to the beach and that the Gardener indeed saw the three boys in the Deepak's car near the pond. I had only two people, but now we have three (i.c. Joran, + Jeremy, Satish and the expired body of Natalee). 

Anyway, not well thought out at all, just dropping random thoughts. So, please save the giggles. Need to think this through better first. Smile

All this talk and reaching for any conclusion other than Joran began from day one in Aruba.  That is a fact that should not be overlooked when peering into the minds of ALE.  The went in like cowboys to arrest two innocent men even when they KNEW Joran and the Kalpoes had lied.  That's a huge problem for those using common sense when looking at this case.  You can complain about the American point of view, but you should not try to deny the obvious.  That is what leads to wild speculation.

You see, if Aruba had done the right thing and tried to find out what happened to Buddy Larson instead of treating his family the same way Natalee's was treated by showing little interest and then lying to them about seeing him all over the island, when in fact no one saw him, the praise Aruba crowd might have a more objective audience when they spin their stories.

The 'boyfriend from earlier in the week' was nothing more than doing anything they could to steer the investigation away from any possible connection to a killer living on Aruba.  That's it.  No evidence like Natalee was last seen with this guy, Natalee had an argument with this guy and he swore revenge, nothing...just hopeful speculation on the part of those in Aruba who tried to make the family believe 'she will show up in a crack house soon, so just go have yourself a drink'.  This is how it happened.  They were not interested in Joran and we know now that they should have been from day one.  She was with him that night and he lied about what he did.  If you look closer at other homicides you will see that most often the victim lost their life as a result of the actions of the last person they were known to be with.  A good detective would have immediately looked to Joran and the Kalpoes for answers.  Instead they accepted their lies even after Natalee's family showed them proof if the lie.

Your theory doesn't pass the test as far as I'm concerned.  But it will not surprise me if Aruba tries to push this lie just as they have tried to push so many others.

Your campaign will probably not win many converts here, but hey, you had to try.
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2007, 11:56:39 AM »

Agree truthseeker. Fierljepper, nice attempt to make Shango fit Julia Renfro's cock-haired lies. Bad news, they never factored into the investigation because they were all fabricated with no evidence to back up any of them. You might try fitting the verses together with what we do know and there are plenty of sources from ALE and the Dutch that indicate Joran, Paulus  and the Kalpoes are your perpetrators.
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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2007, 12:14:03 PM »

Agree truthseeker. Fierljepper, nice attempt to make Shango fit Julia Renfro's cock-haired lies. Bad news, they never factored into the investigation because they were all fabricated with no evidence to back up any of them. You might try fitting the verses together with what we do know and there are plenty of sources from ALE and the Dutch that indicate Joran, Paulus  and the Kalpoes are your perpetrators.


Diana Emerencia - Aruban Attorney
Decatur Daily
August 31, 2005
 

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) — ...... A third man was arrested with the Kalpoes but his lawyer said Monday that it was unrelated to Holloway's disappearance.

Freddy Alexander Zedan-Arambatzis, a friend of van der Sloot and the Kalpoes, was arrested on suspicion of having unspecified "physical contact" with a female minor, said his lawyer, Diana Emerencia.

Zedan-Arambatzis, 21, is also suspected of photographing the girl in "tempting poses" and showing the images to other people, Emerencia said.

The Kalpoe brothers and van der Sloot are also suspected of involvement in the incidents, which allegedly occurred before Holloway disappeared, she said.

Emerencia said Zedan-Arambatzis has denied having any physical contact with the girl or taking photos of her, but has admitted to being present when the photos were taken.

The prosecutor's office declined to comment on the case.


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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2007, 12:19:59 PM »

Agree truthseeker. Fierljepper, nice attempt to make Shango fit Julia Renfro's cock-haired lies. Bad news, they never factored into the investigation because they were all fabricated with no evidence to back up any of them. You might try fitting the verses together with what we do know and there are plenty of sources from ALE and the Dutch that indicate Joran, Paulus  and the Kalpoes are your perpetrators.

Dayhike ... the following segment was taken from the New York lawsuit brought again Paulus and Joran van der Sloot by Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway.  Jane Doe's account is sooo similar to the the theories that abound in regard to the the Natalee Holloway case.

Is this one of the "twenty" times when nothing ever happened that Joran was referring to in the Greta interview?

Janet


HELEN LEJUEZ - ARUBAN ATTORNEY

Affidavid of C. Helen Lejuez

<snipped>

5. ... Miss Doe told me that she was coming forward at that time because she had had an experience that might be similar to Natalee's experience.

6. Miss Doe informed me that, one evening during early in 2005, she met Joran van der Sloot at Carlos'n Charlie's nightclub in Aruba.

7. Miss Doe told me that, over the course of the night, Joran van der Sloot gave her several alcoholic beverages. Miss Doe further stated that she believes that Joran van der Sloot placed some kind of narcotic substance in one of her drinks. The reason she believes she was drugged is that her level of intoxication was greatly disportionate to the amount of alcohol that she consumed.

8. Later that night, according to Miss Doe, Joran Van der Sloot brought Miss Doe back to his apartment, adjacent to his parent's house.

9. Miss Doe then told me that she was sexually assaulted by Joran van der Sloot as she faded in and out of conciousness, At no time did Miss Doe consent to any sexual contact with Joran van der Sloot.

10. Miss Doe advised me that, shortly after she was sexually assaulted by Joran van der Sloot, she learned that two other young women, ages 16 and 17, suffered attacks by Joran van der Sloot under similar circumstances.

11. Miss Doe told me that, in the aftermath of Joran van der Sloot's attack on Miss Doe, she was threatened and intimidated by Joran van der Sloot, his friends and others. She had been terrified to come forward and tell her story in Aruba. Miss Doe has not even advised her family of this attack.

12. If appropriate measures are taken to safeguard Miss Doe and her family, might be prepared to testify in New York, in the above-referenced action. For fear of her safety, Miss Doe is not willing.
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2007, 12:36:33 PM »

Agree truthseeker. Fierljepper, nice attempt to make Shango fit Julia Renfro's cock-haired lies. Bad news, they never factored into the investigation because they were all fabricated with no evidence to back up any of them. You might try fitting the verses together with what we do know and there are plenty of sources from ALE and the Dutch that indicate Joran, Paulus  and the Kalpoes are your perpetrators.

Fierljepper ... rather than putting together a theory on a riddle put forth by an unknown blogger by the name of Shango ... an unknown blogger whose agenda is unknown ... I suggest that you attempt to create a scenario on the words of those whose official positions dictated they knew exactly what they were talking about.

Janet


ARUBAN AUTHORITIES IMPLICATE MAIN SUSPECTS IN NATALEE HOLLOW CASE

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/07/aruban-authorities-implicate-main.html
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2007, 02:27:06 PM »

Who is the 5th suspect? If you do any research on the FP or in the forum during this time, you learn that Simian is not the person that introduces the 5th suspect.  It is highly discussed by various Aruban posters as being Lorenzo.  I am still unclear.  But one thing is obvious Lorenzo is the one that was having the party.  Not a boyfriend that flew into Aruba.  Tell me how a total stranger to Aruba could have pulled off a last minute party?  Simian is referring to what everyone on Aruba has been talking about...the 5th person arrested.  It is either Paulus or Lorenzo. 



Joran van der Sloot (search) and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are being held under suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

A fourth man, party boat DJ Steve Croes, is being held under the same conditions.

The fifth man, Paul van der Sloot (search) — the father of 17-year-old Joran — was being held on suspicion of complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping Under the Aruban system, complicity is a lesser charge.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160654,00.html
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fierljepper
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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2007, 02:58:53 PM »

fierljepper

As a little background could you tell me how long you have been studying the Shango and Simian verses?  Who do you think was Simian?  Any ideas?  Where was Shango posting from?  Any idea who he is?

I'm a complete newbie on Shango and Symbian. My first encounter actually was this topic at Scared Monkeys and the provocative question from Klaas in the opening post.

So, I did a search on Google and found the website I mentioned before. Gave it a fresh look and read it three times and then I'd thought it made sense and did my post.

No idea who Simian is, but very sure that he's a pretty bright guy and was extremely close to the investigation. He somewhere says that he knows the prison from the inside (and I don't mean as a prisoner...) and that he had a tour when he was inaugurated. That really sounds like a legal guy, maybe high up in the DA office or a partner at a law firm. Haven't pinged Shango neither did I check his IP address or its consistent use. My guess is that he's from Aruba (based on the strong way he defends Aruba and pushes back on all the American biased non-sense he reads from his fellow posters (he was right on many points, f.i. about Aruba being an alleged transfer country for selling American girls to Latin America.)

I'm a relative newbie on J2K as well. Only got dragged into it after watching the June 9th Jensen show in NL. Then bought the book and read it a couple of times. Then I started posting a J2K theory at Scrux that provoked quite some debate... And since then my head hasn't stopped spinning and I can tell you one scary thing about this mindboggling case...: The Eagles where absolutely right in Hotel California:

You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave... Shocked

Was that the answer you were looking for? Smile
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fierljepper
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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2007, 03:15:33 PM »

I'm really surprised that Simian et al, had developed this hypothesis already so early in the game (3 weeks after she'd gone missing), when all the media attention was only focused on J2K and their lies. He also knows weird details about "killing his own dogs", which never has been brought in connection to Joran.
Greeting fierljepper! Welcome.

The *dog killing* rumor was introduced here at SM by arubagirl. She is a good source, IMO.

She said that the rumor was Joran killing his dog, blaming it on a neighbor boy, then admitting to it when confronted by the boy's parents. I will try and find the post if you are interested.

Bottom line > this rumor has been discussed extensively on all the blogs since summer 05, and has ALWAYS been connected to Joran.

Hi Igsigs,

Same names pop on different forums. Razz I find it actually pretty amazing how alive this case has been kept even after two years. There's something very special about this particular story. It's almost like reading a "whodunnit" thriller where the writer has put you on the wrong foot during 300 pages of subtle clues and you're now desperately waiting for the last page. Unfortunately we don't have the last page (yet!).

If the rumor was introduced by somebody on a forum, then I'm very interested to see that a particular post and its date. The first time Simian makes the reference to the dogs is June 24th so their at least should be a logical time sequence to get an indication of who quoted who.

Quote
Simian Says: June 24th, 2005 at 2:44 pm
Killing his own dogs. Dumping them is the reservoir. Harassing his schoolmates.


Please note that also refers to harassing his schoolmates. Again this fact also is not attributed to Joran and I've not seen any records/reports on this (he did harass his little brother and broke his SIM-card, pushed a friend through a shop window, he intervened by throwing a "choller" of the bridge and he had smashed a couple or car windows at a breaking-up yard)

 Cool
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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2007, 06:42:08 PM »

Who is the 5th suspect? If you do any research on the FP or in the forum during this time, you learn that Simian is not the person that introduces the 5th suspect.  It is highly discussed by various Aruban posters as being Lorenzo.  I am still unclear.  But one thing is obvious Lorenzo is the one that was having the party.  Not a boyfriend that flew into Aruba.  Tell me how a total stranger to Aruba could have pulled off a last minute party?  Simian is referring to what everyone on Aruba has been talking about...the 5th person arrested.  It is either Paulus or Lorenzo. 

You're right, Lala'sMom. Simian clearly doesn't refer to an ex-boyfriend, so it must have been somebody she met during her stay on Aruba (whether it was a full week or not). Simian summarizes it as follows:

Quote
Checkme…check this…and please recheck:
Girl comes to Aruba. Meets cool and crazy guy in C@$ino. Goes out with him. He declares that to be the case. Can’t deny it. It’s on tape. Everybody in the C@$ino knows the group of teens, they have been drinking in there for free the whole week. After a couple of days girl meets another boy in the same C@$ino. Goes out with him.
Simian: This makes first guy really mad. So mad he confronts second boy.
First guy never denies the affair. He knows they know he was with her. However, he has an airtight alibi. Some friends say they were at home with him. Until the morning.
How can this ever be solved?

So, suppose the first boyfriend is Lorenzo who has been very jealous with the second boyfriend i.c. Joran. Especially the "some friends say they were at home with him" as the alibi, is a further indication that the party was at somebody's house, i.c. the host's place at Aruba.

BTW, you have to be careful with the word "arrested". Simian has never used this qualification in any of his posts. It's perfectly possible to just hear people out, f.i. as a witness or to obtain circumstantial evidence. No arrests are needed for this and outsiders could easily qualify these people entering the police station as "suspects". This is supported by Kermit's recent August 1 post at this forum:

Quote
6/16/05-----Lorenzo Van Rijn was brought in by Aruban police for questioning but was not held. According to Tito, he was considered a possible suspect at that time.

Interesting bloke this Lorenzo van Rijn. His father (Paul) apparently committed suicide a few years ago (after seeing a maid and child drown in is pool) and allegedly Lorenzo involved in "illegal afterhours parties" and lived in a big house on the Jara road. Seems that the police have searched his house, found a lot of drugs (and dogs...) and arrested him. Also there's the persistent rumor that he's a half brother of Joran.

It's therefore very likely that Simian refers to a party at Lorenzo's house.

Let's give it a try...

Lorenzo was at a party with a couple of MB students, but Natalee and Joran were there as well. How did they get there? The Kalpoe's indeed have dropped off Joran and Natalee at the beach near the Marriott, N+J then walked back towards the HI and encountered some MB-student who told them about being invited to the late-hour party at Lorenzo's. They all went there by a car (don't know which one). They arrived at Lorenzo's place and started experimenting with drugs. Suddenly Natalee gets very sick and collapses and doesn't recover. This is very bad news for the responsible MB-seniors and they panick. They all jump in the car and take Natalee and drive back to the Holiday Inn.

Then a MB student calles his influential dad and explains him the "situation". It's very clear that they can't visit a local doctor, since the embarassing story immediately leaks out and in the end this culminated in the US sending in the medjet with a doctor and nurse to smuggle the her discretely out of Aruba and to cover up this scandal. Beth was sadly not informed, but Jug knew what really happened and kept her in the dark all the time.

Joran was dropped off near the McDonald's on their way back to the HI, but then it already started to become clear that Natalee was dead. They now needed a damned good alibi and Joran, pathological lier as he is, proposed to take the role of "having left her passed out on the beach." He then made the famous 2:26-2:34 phone call to Deepak and told him that he was walking home. He added the shoe story to that to enforce his lie "that he left them on the beach". The truth is that he wore them at that time and actually never lost them all. Since he had told Deepak this lie in the call, the only subsequent lie he could add was to try to collude with the K2's on the "we just dropped her off at the HI" (also a perfect alibi for all). All his next lies needed to build on Deepak's stated recording of the 2:26 call that he has never changed. 

The MB-students passed the HI but didn't dare to go in yet, since they needed to get their stories straight and also to hide the body (f.i. in the trunk). They drove a bit further North to the pond area and parked their car on a dirst road to buy some time to think. Suddenly they were caught in the headlights of a mini-van around 2:40-2:50, they immediately covered their face, leaned back or dove back in the backseat (so I guess there were 3 MB students involved).

Joran trapped himself in his first lie to Deepak and ended up in jail (as the lamb who bit his tongue), "the other side of the pond" (i.e. the MB students back in the US) where home and well protected by lawyers and Lorenzo ("the 5th suspect") kept (or was kept) completely out this of this since he had an "airtight alibi" (provide by Joran who lied that he was on the beach with Natalee and at the same time Lorenzo said that he was with the MB-students at a party). The K2's are innocent. Deepak was on computer and Satish was asleep.

The perfect catch-22-stew, no body, no evidence and therefore all the perpetrators running around free protected by their parents and lawyers...

To make the story a bit stronger based on rumors:
If it is true that Paulus van der Sloot is also Lorenzo's real biological father, he had two sons involved in a criminal activity therefore a big stake in the ground to put all his efforts on protecting both them. He told Joran to keep quiet and told him he knew that the body had disappeared from the island, so "no body, no case" and he only had to "bite his tongue" until his release.

And to weaken the story based on available facts...:
If the K2's dropped Joran off around 1:40-1:50, then there never would have been sufficient time to drive to and from the Jara road, to make the 2:26 call near the McDonalds. Is there any indication that the party really was held at Lorenzo's Jara road house? Or was there maybe another place possible nearer by?

I read somewhere that Klaas recently wondered why we know so little about this 'Lorenzo van Rijn' character...  ...is it because he's seen as the weakest link in this fragile plot and is therefore well protected from above? Cool
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sharon
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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2007, 06:52:10 PM »

Truthseeker2 -- I've been thinking abput your post for a few days. I was always curious about the use of the word 'lordship' as well.

I think that the 'key' refers to evidence.

Either the evidence that the 'chain of control' was able to destroy. Or contaminate. Or fabricate (like the cleaning fluid and chocolate).

They had something on either Joran or papa sweat.

I also think that papa sloot used the 'after 10 at night' to make Joran's confession inadmissable. He knows his way around the palace.

I know I didn't help much (sorry -- work is kicking my but these days) but if you read your post with those thoughts in mind, several people pop up in my mind as possibilities.
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