SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #1

[Tamikosmom]

Excellent point. I still say Lorenzo is the 5th.

Natalee Holloway Case

Witness - one brought in for questioning.
Suspect - one who is detained.


JORAN, DEEPAK, SATISH, PAULUS AND STEVE

FOX NEWS
June 24, 2005

Joran van der Sloot (search) and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are being held under suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

A fourth man, party boat DJ Steve Croes, is being held under the same conditions.

The fifth man, Paul van der Sloot (search) — the father of 17-year-old Joran — was being held on suspicion of complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping. Under the Aruban system, complicity is a lesser charge.

[Tamikosmom]

However ... if the Security Guards enter the equation ... the fifth suspect would be either Joran, Deepak or Satish.

Janet

[Stom]

Sorry, I don't find all of what you have here as practical.  ^{I would not seem at all practical to consider "Poppa VDS" is Poppa Van Der Straten},

Then there was no confirmation that DirtyHand was Van der Straten.

I still believe that Shango confirmed that Dirty Hand was the Chief of Polis.  Was that not Van Der Straten's title?  Or did that title belong to someone else...Dompig, Bernardin (sp?)?

Based on what Truthseeker2?  If Poppa VDS is not Poppa Van der Straten, then "Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting " is not a corroboration of Dirty Hand being Van der Straten.

As I said in the comment you qualified as unpractical, Babalu said several things in addition to “so maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the Chief of Polis”.

Babalu was guessing the motive Dirty Hand had for having been to the house of Babylon and guessing that he could be someone in an official position.  But Babalu had already been declared clueless for suggesting that the Babylonians were the Kalpoes (his bit about the duo of Babylonians not participating in the gangbanging of a 14 year old).  Babalu didn’t know what he was talking about and both his comments and the replies they elicited should not be basis for conclusions; they are supported by wrong information.

****************************

The established ranks in the KVA are, from head to toe:

Hoofdcommissaris van Politie
Commissaris
Hoofdinspecteur
Inspecteur 1ste Klasse
Hoofdagent
Brigadier
Agent 1ste Klasse
Agent in Opleiding

The following are the reported ranks of known upper officers:

Jan van der Straten, Police Superintendent
Gerold Dompig, Deputy Police Chief
Ronny Bernadina, Police Commissioner and High Commissioner
Adolfo Richardson, Chief of Police
Peter de Witte, Chief Commissioner

Perhaps Chief Commissioner and High Commissioner are different free translated versions of Hoofdcommissaris.  I don’t know if Police Superintendent also refers to Hoofdcommissaris.

When Adolfo Richardson became the new investigator he was Chief of Police, without the Deputy part, which Gerold Dompig had.  I am unaware if they had different ranks or if we just get the wrong designation or name of ranks through information reports.

[Stom]

As you read these in the order in which they are posted, therefore it does not appear that he is speaking about the same person in any of the three consecutive posts.  There is nothing sequential about these consecutive posts, therefore, I still contend that references being made regarding a party or the party-goers is a reference to the 5th suspect because that is the only person connected to a party of any kind...

Does this make any sense?

Yes, what you say makes sense.  What doesn’t make sense is his decision to bring the subject up again, when he already concluded that there was an unquestionable alibi. I honestly believe in imperfect not 20/not 20 hindsight, that in the latter part of his comments, the Simian was submitted to self-pressure to deliver a successful informant performance.  One way of guaranteeing that was keeping available options open.

He made a common mistake; thinking that he knew more than he really did. That led him to derive inferences from not so worthy, ephemeral information.

[Stom]

Excellent point. I still say Lorenzo is the 5th.

Natalee Holloway Case

Witness - one brought in for questioning.
Suspect - one who is detained.


JORAN, DEEPAK, SATISH, PAULUS AND STEVE

FOX NEWS
June 24, 2005

Joran van der Sloot (search) and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are being held under suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

A fourth man, party boat DJ Steve Croes, is being held under the same conditions.

The fifth man, Paul van der Sloot (search) — the father of 17-year-old Joran — was being held on suspicion of complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping. Under the Aruban system, complicity is a lesser charge.

Definitions don't matter. Paulus couldn’t be the 5th suspect the Simian referred to.  His specific 5th suspect allegedly had a relationship with Natalee earlier on and unless we are willing to give Paulus the distinctive trait of ubiquity by the power of Shango, then he isn’t Simian’s 5th.  It’s counterintuitive to think otherwise.

[truthseeker2]

Sorry, I don't find all of what you have here as practical.  ^{I would not seem at all practical to consider "Poppa VDS" is Poppa Van Der Straten},

Then there was no confirmation that DirtyHand was Van der Straten.

I still believe that Shango confirmed that Dirty Hand was the Chief of Polis.  Was that not Van Der Straten's title?  Or did that title belong to someone else...Dompig, Bernardin (sp?)?

Based on what Truthseeker2?  If Poppa VDS is not Poppa Van der Straten, then "Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting " is not a corroboration of Dirty Hand being Van der Straten.

As I said in the comment you qualified as unpractical, Babalu said several things in addition to “so maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the Chief of Polis”.

Babalu was guessing the motive Dirty Hand had for having been to the house of Babylon and guessing that he could be someone in an official position.  But Babalu had already been declared clueless for suggesting that the Babylonians were the Kalpoes (his bit about the duo of Babylonians not participating in the gangbanging of a 14 year old).  Babalu didn’t know what he was talking about and both his comments and the replies they elicited should not be basis for conclusions; they are supported by wrong information.

****************************

The established ranks in the KVA are, from head to toe:

Hoofdcommissaris van Politie
Commissaris
Hoofdinspecteur
Inspecteur 1ste Klasse
Hoofdagent
Brigadier
Agent 1ste Klasse
Agent in Opleiding

The following are the reported ranks of known upper officers:

Jan van der Straten, Police Superintendent
Gerold Dompig, Deputy Police Chief
Ronny Bernadina, Police Commissioner and High Commissioner
Adolfo Richardson, Chief of Police
Peter de Witte, Chief Commissioner

Perhaps Chief Commissioner and High Commissioner are different free translated versions of Hoofdcommissaris.  I don’t know if Police Superintendent also refers to Hoofdcommissaris.

When Adolfo Richardson became the new investigator he was Chief of Police, without the Deputy part, which Gerold Dompig had.  I am unaware if they had different ranks or if we just get the wrong designation or name of ranks through information reports.

The validation of the 'open window' is seen in the response "Drax Scores!".

[truthseeker2]

Sorry, I don't find all of what you have here as practical.  ^{I would not seem at all practical to consider "Poppa VDS" is Poppa Van Der Straten},

Then there was no confirmation that DirtyHand was Van der Straten.

I still believe that Shango confirmed that Dirty Hand was the Chief of Polis.  Was that not Van Der Straten's title?  Or did that title belong to someone else...Dompig, Bernardin (sp?)?

Based on what Truthseeker2?  If Poppa VDS is not Poppa Van der Straten, then "Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting " is not a corroboration of Dirty Hand being Van der Straten.

As I said in the comment you qualified as unpractical, Babalu said several things in addition to “so maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the Chief of Polis”.

Babalu was guessing the motive Dirty Hand had for having been to the house of Babylon and guessing that he could be someone in an official position.  But Babalu had already been declared clueless for suggesting that the Babylonians were the Kalpoes (his bit about the duo of Babylonians not participating in the gangbanging of a 14 year old).  Babalu didn’t know what he was talking about and both his comments and the replies they elicited should not be basis for conclusions; they are supported by wrong information.

****************************

The established ranks in the KVA are, from head to toe:

Hoofdcommissaris van Politie
Commissaris
Hoofdinspecteur
Inspecteur 1ste Klasse
Hoofdagent
Brigadier
Agent 1ste Klasse
Agent in Opleiding

The following are the reported ranks of known upper officers:

Jan van der Straten, Police Superintendent
Gerold Dompig, Deputy Police Chief
Ronny Bernadina, Police Commissioner and High Commissioner
Adolfo Richardson, Chief of Police
Peter de Witte, Chief Commissioner

Perhaps Chief Commissioner and High Commissioner are different free translated versions of Hoofdcommissaris.  I don’t know if Police Superintendent also refers to Hoofdcommissaris.

When Adolfo Richardson became the new investigator he was Chief of Police, without the Deputy part, which Gerold Dompig had.  I am unaware if they had different ranks or if we just get the wrong designation or name of ranks through information reports.

Validation can also be found in this exchange:

Shango on June 30th, 2005 2:31 am
Watcher opened a window looking onto babylon at 2:29.   He holds the key to the ONLY door which opens the door to the lions den

watcher on June 30th, 2005 2:29 am
I think Subdude is on the right track about the media putting pressure on WHY the polis chief is leaving.

[truthseeker2]

As you read these in the order in which they are posted, therefore it does not appear that he is speaking about the same person in any of the three consecutive posts.  There is nothing sequential about these consecutive posts, therefore, I still contend that references being made regarding a party or the party-goers is a reference to the 5th suspect because that is the only person connected to a party of any kind...

Does this make any sense?

Yes, what you say makes sense.  What doesn’t make sense is his decision to bring the subject up again, when he already concluded that there was an unquestionable alibi. I honestly believe in imperfect not 20/not 20 hindsight, that in the latter part of his comments, the Simian was submitted to self-pressure to deliver a successful informant performance.  One way of guaranteeing that was keeping available options open.

He made a common mistake; thinking that he knew more than he really did. That led him to derive inferences from not so worthy, ephemeral information.

Well, what you have done here is not any different that anyone else...you've made assumptions as well.  You see through your prescription glasses and others see through theirs.

For me, placing the quotes in the correct order and applying the context of the other posters encourages me to believe that Shango's Dirty Hand is Jan Van Der Straten.

[sharon]

Well, what you have done here is not any different that anyone else...you've made assumptions as well.  You see through your prescription glasses and others see through theirs.

For me, placing the quotes in the correct order and applying the context of the other posters encourages me to believe that Shango's Dirty Hand is Jan Van Der Straten.

I also feel that you need to read the posts in context of the other posts and posters.

And I would agree TS2, that Shango does encourage us to believe that 'Dirty Hand' is VanderStraaten.

But he also says there are many dirty hands. And he also spells it differently in different places -- sometimes one word. sometimes in capital letters. sometimes in small letters. So I am also of the belief there is more than one dirty hand. imo, one of his references insinuates the drug runners or money launderers as the dirty hands, as well. And I think one of the of S's even mentions a 'dirty foot'

But...this is my real question --

WHY do you think Shango encourage us to believe that Dirty Hand is VanDerStraaten??

[Lala'sMom]

Since this is the Shango thread I am going to throw out some ideas that have been presented by other code talkers. You may or may not agree, but I think they should be known that there are other ways of interpreting this stuff besides what I think. I thought of it after Sharon's post above.

Other code talkers think...

Dirty Hand is actually Mickey John.  They think he was working for the elders to provide that security that Sharon spoke of.  This is a touchy subject, but you know me, I think all ideas should be out there and then it is left to others to dispute one way or the other.  (Thus I have tolerated some insane comments about Shango and Simian to this day. Not yours Sharon, someone else.)  A poster named Eleye and Colombo seriously thought that Mickey John was involved. That he knew much more than he said and that is the reason that neither he nor the other guard has ever been able to collect any money for their false imprisonment. If you look at it that way, it does make sense. 

The 5th suspect is Paulus van der Sloot.  That Paulus was the "boyfriend" from earlier in the week.  Eleye clearly thought this and argued this point with me many times. He had very good reasons for saying that and although I tried without success, he stuck with his assumptions. As of this moment, I can't say for sure what the deal is.  It was a revolting thought to me...that Natalee would have been interested in that older man.  I truly do not see that in any way possible, but I am only speculating also. So to each his own.  If there is someone that can prove it...I will believe it.

Joran was not involved after leaving Natalee with the elders.  He should be absolved because he was just doing as he was told by others more powerful than he was.  That is why he states he will tell the truth one day. Maybe he was a scapegoat and left her with men more evil than he was, I can't truly say.  It would help to explain why Paulus has gone to such lengths to protect his son...he knows he was TOLD to do this and most likely Paulus was part of the TELLING. 

So take this for what it's worth, which if you dislike Shango is not much. 

Please note that these are not my assumptions...I am merely passing on some other ideas as well.  I worry when people take my posts out of context, just as many people take Siman and Shango out of context.  Changes the meaning completely.

[Lala'sMom]

Excellent point. I still say Lorenzo is the 5th.

Natalee Holloway Case

Witness - one brought in for questioning.
Suspect - one who is detained.


JORAN, DEEPAK, SATISH, PAULUS AND STEVE

FOX NEWS
June 24, 2005

Joran van der Sloot (search) and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are being held under suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

A fourth man, party boat DJ Steve Croes, is being held under the same conditions.

The fifth man, Paul van der Sloot (search) — the father of 17-year-old Joran — was being held on suspicion of complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping. Under the Aruban system, complicity is a lesser charge.

The early Aruban posters were talking about a 4th and 5th person long before June 24.  In fact the first mention of a 5th person happened around June 16th maybe even earlier.  I forget.  Lorenzo and Steve Croes are clearly those two people (4th and 5th) it's in the FP posts from that time (June 16-17) as well the Archives of that same time.  The Aruban posters were talking about Lorenzo before they were talking about Croes, so it's which one you think is 4 and which is 5. It's the distinction between suspect and witness that is causing the confusion.  I do not make this stuff up as I go...

[truthseeker2]

Well, what you have done here is not any different that anyone else...you've made assumptions as well.  You see through your prescription glasses and others see through theirs.

For me, placing the quotes in the correct order and applying the context of the other posters encourages me to believe that Shango's Dirty Hand is Jan Van Der Straten.

I also feel that you need to read the posts in context of the other posts and posters.

And I would agree TS2, that Shango does encourage us to believe that 'Dirty Hand' is VanderStraaten.

But he also says there are many dirty hands. And he also spells it differently in different places -- sometimes one word. sometimes in capital letters. sometimes in small letters. So I am also of the belief there is more than one dirty hand. imo, one of his references insinuates the drug runners or money launderers as the dirty hands, as well. And I think one of the of S's even mentions a 'dirty foot'

But...this is my real question --

WHY do you think Shango encourage us to believe that Dirty Hand is VanDerStraaten??

Well, that's an excellent question.  Shango posted at least three times that Babalu had "opened a windoe" and twice confirmed that Babalu had correctly identified Dirty Hand when others were trying to guess that identity.  When you think about it in the context of Shango, THE Dirty Hand knows everyone, per se.  If Van Der Straten is THE Dirty Hand you could easily come to the conclusion that in his position he could do the following:

1. Provide protection from arrest for any criminal element on the island.
2. Destroy evidence
3. Mislead the prosecutor
4. Mislead families of a victim
5. Provide advance notice to a suspect regarding the reason for them being suspects
6. Direct the interrogators

As far as many dirty hands, yes Shango did refer to that here:

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 6:19 pm
There are many DirtyHands among the Arawak, and so it has been for centuries…

I believe this means there are and have been many people like Van Der Staaten that allow things to happen on the island.  It’s always been that way.  Specific to this I case I believe Shango has identified Van Der Straten at the Dirty Hand.

As far as using the term Dirty Hand versus dirty hand, you can find this same scenario with many words within the Shango posts.

For example:

Babylonian, babylonian
Maze, maze
Music, music
His Lordship, his lordship
Arawaks, arawaks

...and so on.  I don't apply any significant change in definition as a result unless the topic of that post has changed.  With respect to Dirty Hand, I do not see such a change from post to post.

[Lala'sMom]

I think I should also point out that some of our posters think Dirty Hand is someone else.  Remember this is what others have said...not my thoughts...I think we need to know what is out there and go from there.

Tylergal thinks Dirty Hand could be Rudy Croes.
I have read others think Dirty Hand could be Dennis Jacobs.

So there are various opinions.  Shango did indeed allow van der Straaten to be characterized as Dirty Hand.  I have my own thoughts as to why.  Let me work on it and I will elaborate.  I need to compose my thoughts.

[Lala'sMom]

Why does Shango want us to believe that Dirty Hand is van der Straaten?   I suppose it would be prudent to discuss the identity of Shango here...but that will only derail things so let's just consider this...



1.  If you think Shango is solely based on the comic book character then I guess Dirty Hand is referenced in the comics.  I don't know, since I have never seen the comics.  That would be nice to know if Dirty Hand is an official of some sort in the comic.  That is best left to those that have read the comics.

2. It is possible that Shango was a member of the MEP and he did not agree with the opposition.  I do not know what party van der Straaten belonged to or was aligned with.  If Straaten is a trusted person as Jossy claims, then I would think he was not a supporter of the MEP.  Would he say so?  Probably not. You don't want to go around biting the hand that feeds you.

3.  Another possibility is that Shango disliked the MEP but had no power to do anything about it.  Maybe he or someone he knew was mistreated by the MEP, the elders, the lions or whatever.  It could have been his way of getting back at them. To point your finger and say that Dirty Hand was a friend of Paulus and he walked with him and walked among the ravers and gamblers and did nothing says you have a grudge about something.   

4. Shango was DEA.

Shango and only Shango actually knows who is Dirty Hand.  We are all making assumptions from things we know or have learned along the way.  I do know that if Dirty Hand was really Gabe Leo, I have seen him supporting MEP shortly after the election.  I am not the only person that knows this, trust me.

[truthseeker2]

Is Van Der Straten Dirty Hand???


Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.


Shango on June 27th, 2005 12:28 pm
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his
12:30 AM posting

Shango on June 27th, 2005 4:00 am
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting

Shango on June 27th, 2005 12:12 pm
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his
12:30 AM posting
If the cowboys do not find the loot today, it will not be found

Shango on June 27th, 2005 12:26 pm
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his
12:30 AM posting
Simian your Doppleganger is with us

Shango on June 27th, 2005 12:28 pm
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his
12:30 AM posting

Shango on June 27th, 2005 9:44 pm
Babalu opened a window looking into babylon on his 12:31 A.M. Post
DirtyHand is alive

Shango on June 27th, 2005 9:48 pm
Babalu knew who dirty hand was at half past 12

drax on June 27th, 2005 10:57 pm
DirtyHand has walked through the maze:…is DirtyHand Poppa VDS?

Shango on June 27th, 2005 11:01 pm
The Drax asks a question for which he already provided an answer.

Shango on June 27th, 2005 11:04 pm
Babalu opened a window looking onto Babylon with his 12:30 A.M. post

drax on June 27th, 2005 11:08 pm
Shango says: The Drax asks a question for which he already provided an answer.
I don’t understand, Shango.

Babalú on June 27th, 2005 11:10 pm
He’s talking about Dirty Hands identity, please refer to my post of yesterday 12:30 AM. He is JVDS, and not Joran.

Lucy on June 27th, 2005 10:56 pm
Someone said last night that Dirty Hand was somebody in the police.

Shango on June 27th, 2005 11:13 pm
Lucy spoke at 10:56

[Tamikosmom]

In the Natalee Holloway case ... other than the security guards ... there were only seven suspects who were arrested ... held in pre-trial detention. All the rest were considered witnesses who were brought in for questioning and immediately relesed ... Lorenzo included.

Janet


Joran, Deepak, Satish, Steve Croes and Paulus
FOX NEWS
June 24, 2005

Joran van der Sloot (search) and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are being held under suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

A fourth man, party boat DJ Steve Croes, is being held under the same conditions.

The fifth man, Paul van der Sloot (search) — the father of 17-year-old Joran — was being held on suspicion of complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping. Under the Aruban system, complicity is a lesser charge.


Geoffrey van Cromvoirt (GVC)
ABC NEWS
April 24, 2006

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, 19, has been released into the custody of his parents after spending more than a week in an Aruba jail on suspicion of "criminal offenses that may be related to the disappearance" of Natalee Holloway.


Guildo Wever
FOX NEWS
May 22, 2006

Guido Wever, an Aruba national, is expected to face charges Tuesday in a Dutch courtroom connection with the disappearance of the high school senior. Wever's lawyer, Gerard Spong was expected to file a suit Monday to prevent his extradition to the Caribbean island on charges of "assisting in the murder, heavy battery and kidnapping" of the teen

++++++++++++++++++

Arlene Ellis-Schipper
NANCY GRACE
July 20, 2005

ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: There is no grand jury in Aruba. It`s a different system. You are arrested based on suspicion, on strong suspicion. After a maximum of 146 days, the prosecution must determine the criminal offense that has been committed and make an official summation for court. And God forbid that they cannot determine what criminal offense has been committed, the case remains open, and it can remain open for a whole number of years, actually, until the due process, the international rules about due process, up to two years


Noraina Pietersz - Defence Attorney
Associated Press
June 9, 2005

Under Aruban law, only serious suspicion from investigators — not solid evidence — is needed for a judge to rule that suspects can be held, Pietersz said.

[Lala'sMom]

Simian never says arrested...just suspect.

[truthseeker2]

Right, Lala's.  When Simian talks about the 5th suspect he is talking about someone who is the 5th suspect in the eyes of his ALE contact, not in the eyes of the Media.  No where does Simian say the 5th official suspect.

[Tylergal]

Where does Max Arends fit in?  If you go by the actual order, LOrenzo is the fourth, Max Arends #5 and Steve Croes #6, but we are not privy to the "true order."  Lorenzo was questioned according to Fox on the 16th and shortly after on the same date, Max Arends.  On the 17th, comes Steve Croes.  He came in to give Lorenzo the alibi.  Dirty Hand has walked ... but has not partaken...I do not really think Shango implies JVDStrateen is dirty hand.  I might be wrong and reading it wrong and I know how you come to that conclusion but I can go elsewhere with the same statement.   Not wanting to start world war III, just thinking. . . .

Does anyone other than I remember the girl from Atlanta who was on TV immediately after the arrest of AJ & MJ, who stated one of the SGs had accosted her or made indecent proposition to her.  A blond, about Natalee's size, perhaps a little older.  Just wondering. 

I still think whatever took place, happened near the HI.  I just do not think Natalee was at the VDS house in an awake and live state.  I know that the consensus here is that she died there --- I think not.  I think it was somewhere near where Steve Croes, who was somewhere near the HI and I think he is involved.  His witness statement if we are to believe the poseurs in Aruba was that Steve came in voluntarily and was only arrested after he lied (or did he) about where Natalee was taken.  So we can eliminate Steve Croes as a "suspect" at that point, and only put him in the same category with all the former witnesses, "sleeze bag."

[Tylergal]

Just another thought.  We have had an artist's rendering of Jerry Strawberry as potential "masher."  Does Steve Croes use him for "dirty work?"  Is he one of the dirty hands?  I can see how he could be easily manipulated.  Is Steve Croes the guy who rode on the bus with his "brother" (Jerry Strawberry) for a year     Remember that book/movie. 

The bifrons.  How many bifrons?  Would Jerry Strawberry be easily manipulated into thinking he was doing a good deed?