SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #1

[Stom]

At times it seems Simian and Shango are responding to what each other posts. 

 

*Ajax was the son of Telamon. He was a Trojan War hero on the side of the Greeks. When Achilles was killed, his armor was to be awarded to the next greatest Greek hero. Ajax thought it should go to him. Ajax went mad and tried to kill his comrades when the armor was awarded to Odysseus, instead. Athena intervened by making Ajax think cattle were his former allies. When Ajax realized he had slaughtered the herd, he committed suicide as his only honorable end.  On June 20th, SM posted a blurp about Joran being on suicide watch.   http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/?p=1164 

 

**“lugubrious game” - Dali's stated desire "to systematize confusion and contribute to the total discrediting of the world of reality.  It is one of Dali's classic surreal images of sexual persecution and an obsession with castration and masturbation. It is also an image that plays off of psychic automatism and Freudian dream logic: displacement, condensation, and fetish. 

Well, I am glad that you clarified the Ajax and lugubrious game bits.  I would have thought no Ajax, meant no Lestoil, no Mr. Clean, no Spick & Span; and lugubrious game, as being a doleful behavior or pastime.

Humor??

Partially...I had interpreted “no Ajax” as referring to Joran being tarnished from the context of undesirable behavior.  Either way, the Simian was emitting a judgment.

The lugubrious game phrase I registered in its immediacy and not in alternative intricate meanings.  The Simian adopted a more puzzling style in his final days, and I always thought that he was imitating Shango.  But a mystifying style is an excellent way to hide the reality of not knowing what happened, because events evolved differently than expected and portrayed on previous days.

[Stom]

 

If you believe Dirty Hand is Van Der Straten - which I do - Then it appears that Van Der Straten can break the alibi of the suspect who had a party.  If you believe Lorenzo had the party then you have to believe Loreanzo shares some degree of guilt.  imo

We have information from two sources and we have no confirmation that they are interrelated.  The Simian brings back the subject of the ravers and the need to pinch them.  In total separateness, Shango mentions that could brake the alibi.  Tying these two comments to mean that Van der Straten could break the alibi of the party and consequently, Lorenzo shares some guilt would be the equivalent of forcing a conclusion.

I don't completely disagree...it does push the envelope somewhat.  If we think in terms of 'alibi', everyone apparently has one.  So which alibi does Shango seem to think can be broken by Dirty Hand (Van Der Straten)?

I still think the Lorenzo alibi is a possibility here.  The flow of the posts does present it as an option.

Did Paulus pick Joran up at 11:00 pm or 04:00 am?  If not until 04:00, then Paulus was lying for some reason.  What would Van Der Straten have that could break that alibi?  (computer records?)  Shango does not say, or, if he did say we have not identified that post.

And of course the Kalpoes and Freddy and Guido...they all must have provided information as to their whereabouts when Natalee went missing.

Which alibi do you think Shango refers to here?

I don’t think he referred to any.  I am convinced that Shango’s objective was to ridicule the Simian and his audience, in order to have a good laugh.

[truthseeker2]

[If I remember correctly, the 11:00 versus 04.00 times came from Beth and Jug and the people that accompanied them to the Van Der Sloots house that first night/early morning.  The Alabama group says orignially Paulus said 04:00 and later changed it to 11:00 pm. So who knows.  That is why I look at the 22:33(10:33 pm) login time as significant.

I don’t see how if Joran went online or not at 10:33 PM has any impact on the case.  I’ll appreciate more details as to why you think this is important.

Because if Joran was already home at 10:33 then Paulus did not pick him up at 11:00 as has been claimed.  Either Paulus lied from the very beginning by saying he picked Joran up at 11:00 (why would he) or there is a possibilty that the 04:00 am time IS what he originally said.

[truthseeker2]

I agree here also, maybe I did not state as well.

Also, I agree that Simian may have been in contact with someone close to the investigation, but possibly no too close, and what we see in his posts comes from that contact. 

When I look at Shango's responses, it seems he may be responding to Simian's information in what he believes to be more to the point, yet he does it in a "not very to the point" process.  The two do actually post to each other, basically calling each other out.  Simian basically calls Shango a liar and admonishes him for his posts.  Shango taunts Simian by insinuating that Simian is not "in the know".  They are reading each other's posts, and yes, Shango responds in his usual "prose", if you will.

I guess we can safely state that Simian and Shango’s interaction was strife among rivals, caused by Shango’s persistent annoyance.  If you agree, then we should not use the comments of one to support a “believe” about the comment of the other.

I don't see Shango as an annoyance.  Whether people like to dislike what he said, it very much provided insight into the nature of Arbua's ruling class versus the rest of the population. 

I do not agree that you can totally discount one's comments in relation to the other's.  I think Shango did just that in some of his posts.  Simian did not want to 'play'.

For instance, Shango some of Simian's terminology such as Babylonians and Arawaks.  Actually, Shango originally used the term Sumerians but acquiesced by using the term Arawaks.  I think Shango sought the interaction, Simian declined.

[truthseeker2]

I don't completely disagree...it does push the envelope somewhat.  If we think in terms of 'alibi', everyone apparently has one.  So which alibi does Shango seem to think can be broken by Dirty Hand (Van Der Straten)?

I still think the Lorenzo alibi is a possibility here.  The flow of the posts does present it as an option.

Did Paulus pick Joran up at 11:00 pm or 04:00 am?  If not until 04:00, then Paulus was lying for some reason.  What would Van Der Straten have that could break that alibi?  (computer records?)  Shango does not say, or, if he did say we have not identified that post.

And of course the Kalpoes and Freddy and Guido...they all must have provided information as to their whereabouts when Natalee went missing.

Which alibi do you think Shango refers to here?

I don’t think he referred to any.  I am convinced that Shango’s objective was to ridicule the Simian and his audience, in order to have a good laugh.


[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not.

Well, hopefully we will eventually find out.  In the mean time I will continue to look for clues that can be validated with facts.  Not an easy task.

[Stom]

I don’t see how if Joran went online or not at 10:33 PM has any impact on the case.  I’ll appreciate more details as to why you think this is important.

Because if Joran was already home at 10:33 then Paulus did not pick him up at 11:00 as has been claimed.  Either Paulus lied from the very beginning by saying he picked Joran up at 11:00 (why would he) or there is a possibilty that the 04:00 am time IS what he originally said.

The Mountain Brook group visit to the v/d Sloots was at the very beginning.  Beth and Greta’s visit was several days later.  The McD's subject may have been discussed twice or it could be that one time he said 4:00 AM and the next, 11:00 PM.  What we have for sure is confirmation that the McD’s encounter was discussed the day Beth and Greta dropped in on Anita.  On that ocassion he said 11:00 PM.

If in fact Paulus picked up Joran earlier, I still don’t think the information sheds any significant light, other that point to a behavioral and character weakness (i. e. Paulus lied).  Had Paulus said 22:21 PM, it wouldn’t have incriminated Joran any more than saying 11:00 PM has liberated him from any suspicion.

The McDonald’s surroundings are quite visible.  Would Paulus have risked exposure by meeting Joran there at 4:00 AM, after the commission of the crime and or facilitation of death on the part of his son, and possibly after the disposal/pre-disposal of the body?  It doesn’t make sense…someone would have seen them.  So far, only Beth states the 4:00 AM pick-up time, while others that were present the second time around confirm the 11:00 PM statement.

A more crucial piece of confusion is the phone call in the early hours of May 30th.  There are several sources of information that refer to a phone call in the middle ob the night.  This instance could mark the beginning of the execution of the plan to dispose the body

[Stom]

I guess we can safely state that Simian and Shango’s interaction was strife among rivals, caused by Shango’s persistent annoyance.  If you agree, then we should not use the comments of one to support a “believe” about the comment of the other.

I don't see Shango as an annoyance.  Whether people like to dislike what he said, it very much provided insight into the nature of Arbua's ruling class versus the rest of the population. 

I do not agree that you can totally discount one's comments in relation to the other's.  I think Shango did just that in some of his posts.  Simian did not want to 'play'.

For instance, Shango some of Simian's terminology such as Babylonians and Arawaks.  Actually, Shango originally used the term Sumerians but acquiesced by using the term Arawaks.  I think Shango sought the interaction, Simian declined.

I was talking about the interaction between the Simian and Shango…Shango annoyed Simian.

Simian did not want to play, precisely because Shango was mocking him:

Simian Says: June 27th, 2005 at 11:59 am
Ally, gracias…hay un tipo que me esta haciendo mofa. Me cansa y confunde aun mas a los otros.

Ally, thanks…there is a guy that is making fun of me.  I am sick of it and he confuses the others further more.

Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:21 am
The Simian doesn’t make predictions. Only gives the group information ahead of time. Predictions are for fools. This is the Simian.
No me hagan mofa. Estoy molesto por las bobedades de Shango y Shock y Checkme. Se creen, pero no son.

Don’t make fun of me.  I am upset by the stupidities of Shango and Shock and Checkme.  They consider themselves to be (Spanish idiom), but they are not.


Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 3:02 am
Yo solo trato de pasar información antes de que se presente en las noticias. Primero, porque no se dicen las como se deben en Fox News o en CNN.
Sinembargo me encuentro ahora con un idiota que se cree hacer predicciones de cosas que no sabe. Alavez, claramente yo tampoco por no haber estado alli. Una vez mas yo solo paso informacion que tengo de gente que estan conectados en la sociedad Arubana.
Estoy muy disgustado hoy de leer como esta idiota que se hace llamar Shango esta jugando con los sentimientos de estos gringos y alavez de oír a Nancy Grace hablar de situaciones que ella ni siquiera entiende.


I only try to pass on information before it is aired in the news.  First, because they are not presented as they should in Fox News or in CNN. 
However I now run into an idiot that thinks is capable of making predictions of things that he doesn’t know.  At the same time, clearly me neither for not having been there.  Once again I just pass information that I have from people that are connected in the Aruban society.
I am very displeased today from reading how this idiot that calls himself Shango is playing with the feelings of these “gringos” (Americans) and at the same time from hearing Nancy Grace talk about situations that she doesn’t even understand.

[Stom]

Maybe, maybe not.

Well, hopefully we will eventually find out.  In the mean time I will continue to look for clues that can be validated with facts.  Not an easy task.

What clues do you think have already been validated by facts?

[truthseeker2]

I don’t see how if Joran went online or not at 10:33 PM has any impact on the case.  I’ll appreciate more details as to why you think this is important.

Because if Joran was already home at 10:33 then Paulus did not pick him up at 11:00 as has been claimed.  Either Paulus lied from the very beginning by saying he picked Joran up at 11:00 (why would he) or there is a possibilty that the 04:00 am time IS what he originally said.

The Mountain Brook group visit to the v/d Sloots was at the very beginning.  Beth and Greta’s visit was several days later.  The McD's subject may have been discussed twice or it could be that one time he said 4:00 AM and the next, 11:00 PM.  What we have for sure is confirmation that the McD’s encounter was discussed the day Beth and Greta dropped in on Anita.  On that ocassion he said 11:00 PM.

If in fact Paulus picked up Joran earlier, I still don’t think the information sheds any significant light, other that point to a behavioral and character weakness (i. e. Paulus lied).  Had Paulus said 22:21 PM, it wouldn’t have incriminated Joran any more than saying 11:00 PM has liberated him from any suspicion.

The McDonald’s surroundings are quite visible.  Would Paulus have risked exposure by meeting Joran there at 4:00 AM, after the commission of the crime and or facilitation of death on the part of his son, and possibly after the disposal/pre-disposal of the body?  It doesn’t make sense…someone would have seen them.  So far, only Beth states the 4:00 AM pick-up time, while others that were present the second time around confirm the 11:00 PM statement.

A more crucial piece of confusion is the phone call in the early hours of May 30th.  There are several sources of information that refer to a phone call in the middle ob the night.  This instance could mark the beginning of the execution of the plan to dispose the body

The 11:00 pm versus 04:00 am seems significant to me in that it begs the question "Where, exactly, were you Mr. Van Der Sloot between the hours of 11:00 pm and approximately 08:00 am.?"  I believe 08:00 am is the first time anlyone other than a family member can attest to his whereabouts when Paulus went to work. 

Also, the first time the 04:00 was mentioned was when the family and friends of Natalee went to the Van Der Sloot residence.  More than one person claimed to hear Paulus say 04:00 am, but their statements were not taken by ALE.  They have since given statements to the FBI.  As to the McDonald's location, I would only be able to speculate as to the visibility and surroundings there since I have never been there.  How many people are milling around near the McDonald's at 04:00 am?

I agree that the phone call was one that may have been the beginning of the disposal of the body.  I don't know how significant it could be, but one Simian post says the call was at 02:00 am.  At 02:34 the email account of Joran's brother is accessed from the family's computer.  Now, I suppose if that call did come at 02:00 am (or there abouts) the case could be made that the ringing phone woke Val up and a few mintes later he gets up and logs on to the computer.  This would be speculation.  You could also speculate that Paulus was not there and Val answered the phone since Paulus now he says he does not remeber answering the phone, per Simian.  Neither scenario has been publicized at a fact.  So the phone call to the house, to begin the disposal of the body, is important.

[truthseeker2]

Maybe, maybe not.

Well, hopefully we will eventually find out.  In the mean time I will continue to look for clues that can be validated with facts.  Not an easy task.

What clues do you think have already been validated by facts?

Virtually none at this point.  I do believe that Shango intended to refer to Jan Van Der Straten as Dirty Hand.  I do believe that Shango intended to indicate that the beach story was not true.  I also believe that there is a gambling element to this other than when Joran and the MB students played black jack that night.

To be quite honest, I read Simian's posts and take them for what they are worth considering that it's very possible his information is coming from ALE.  The same people who were ready to arrest two innocent men while the last three seen with Natalee were barely questioned at all.  I do not doubt Simian's objective, just the quality of the information he was receiving.  I think initially he was getting a lot of information about what was happening in the investigation.  I think as the media hype escalated and the blogs were 'screaming' about the handling of this case his information portal began to close.

Shango, on the other hand, is a big question.  Just how much did he really know?  Some say he knew nothing and was playing a game online.  Others disagree.  So, I tend to look at the posts and try to make sense out of as much as I possibly can.  The only way to do that is to allow some to the information from other sources to enter the equation.  Trying to determine which other sources are reliable is the most difficult part.

[Lala'sMom]

4 AM Phone Call....this is stated in the reasons for denial of compensation to Paulus van der Sloot. I believe there is mention of a witness and the ATM in the same statement.  I believe it is in an official court document of which I can't find or don't have access to.  I am certain Klaas has it.

[Tylergal]

4 AM Phone Call....this is stated in the reasons for denial of compensation to Paulus van der Sloot. I believe there is mention of a witness and the ATM in the same statement.  I believe it is in an official court document of which I can't find or don't have access to.  I am certain Klaas has it.

Also the reason, we are told, that Paulus was picked up in the first place, the discrepancy in the 4 a.m. and the 11 p.m. pickup, the denial of compensation and eye witness account.  Wonder if the lady he kept "waiting" to see for such an extended period of time at the bank that fateful morning who met an untimely death was a witness from the video the bank may/may not have had, as it was near McDonald's.

[COLOMBO]

TS2:

note: 
Arawaks hold singing card from babylon (arawak=polis)
DirtyHand is not an Arawak



Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
Arawaks hold singing card from babylon
Arawaks can’t let babylonian Card sing because hand holding it dirty too.

Even if you play cards in the house of babylon as an arawak, you still have DirtyHand.

Shango Says:June 26th, 2005 at 9:19 pm
DirtyHand is not an Arawak
The singing card can not be played
The cowboys would circle the wagons

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 9:35 pm
DirtyHand is not an Arawak
Many pioneers have settled with the tribe

Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 10:45 pm
Windows looking onto Babylon are being opened by the ThreadSurfers

http://www.honeymooncruiseshopper.com/aruba%20wyndham%20casablanca%20casino.html

[Lala'sMom]

TS2:

note: 
Arawaks hold singing card from babylon (arawak=polis)
DirtyHand is not an Arawak



Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
Arawaks hold singing card from babylon
Arawaks can’t let babylonian Card sing because hand holding it dirty too.

Even if you play cards in the house of babylon as an arawak, you still have DirtyHand.

Shango Says:June 26th, 2005 at 9:19 pm
DirtyHand is not an Arawak
The singing card can not be played
The cowboys would circle the wagons

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 9:35 pm
DirtyHand is not an Arawak
Many pioneers have settled with the tribe

Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 10:45 pm
Windows looking onto Babylon are being opened by the ThreadSurfers

http://www.honeymooncruiseshopper.com/aruba%20wyndham%20casablanca%20casino.html

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 10:37 pm
DirtyHand is not a child of Babylon
He holds the real key
The Arawaks fear his exposure
The house of babylon would tumble down on the teepees of the Arawaks
DirtyHand knows the cowboys will leave lootless.
He can break the alibi

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 5:32 pm
The sacrifice is the correct food to appease the gods, arawaks, and cowboys
but the foundations of the house of babylon will shake
even harder if Arawak Dirty Hand is revealed [/


Dirty Hand is one or many....Shango is playing with everyone. 

[truthseeker2]

TS2:

note: 
Arawaks hold singing card from babylon (arawak=polis)
DirtyHand is not an Arawak



Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
Arawaks hold singing card from babylon
Arawaks can’t let babylonian Card sing because hand holding it dirty too.

Even if you play cards in the house of babylon as an arawak, you still have DirtyHand.

Shango Says:June 26th, 2005 at 9:19 pm
DirtyHand is not an Arawak
The singing card can not be played
The cowboys would circle the wagons

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 9:35 pm
DirtyHand is not an Arawak
Many pioneers have settled with the tribe

Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 10:45 pm
Windows looking onto Babylon are being opened by the ThreadSurfers

http://www.honeymooncruiseshopper.com/aruba%20wyndham%20casablanca%20casino.html

Sorry Columbo, but I don't get your point here.  If you assume that Arawaks are the polis, and that Dirty Hand is not an Arawak, then you woul have to ignore Shango's confirmation to Babalu and Drax that Dirty Hand is Van Ser Straten.  You, could however, assume that Arawaks are the non-Dutch polis.

My first guess as to the identity of the Babylonian Card would be Guido.  Michael Posner controls Guido.

You will need to be more specific with regard to your link to the Wyndham.  I think I know where you are headed with that, but am not 100% certain.

[truthseeker2]

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 10:37 pm
DirtyHand is not a child of Babylon
He holds the real key
The Arawaks fear his exposure
The house of babylon would tumble down on the teepees of the Arawaks
DirtyHand knows the cowboys will leave lootless.
He can break the alibi

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 5:32 pm
The sacrifice is the correct food to appease the gods, arawaks, and cowboys
but the foundations of the house of babylon will shake
even harder if Arawak Dirty Hand is revealed [/


Dirty Hand is one or many....Shango is playing with everyone. 

Van Der Straten is not a 'child' at all.

Arawak Dirty Hand...who appointed Van Der Straten to his last position in Aruba?

[COLOMBO]

TS2:

Why did the girl owe money? (she spent her nights at their tables-all they 'knew' was written down)

think:

window OVERLOOKING   QQ       Babylon......

*******as an arawak you still have Dirty Hand

Dirty Hand knows who provided escort.....*******

teepees already blowing in wind because of Dirty Hand.......but will blow EVEN HARDER IF ARAWAK DIRTY HAND revealed-hint:

ALL the Arawaks (the "fetid Arawak King," too, sounds like.....) know the house that plays the poison songs......

Arawaks often play in the small houses of Babylon with offspring of the elders=the Arawak dirty hand ("the game"=prostitution)

many teepees (marriages) fall.......

sacrifice to spare the polis, spare the teepees.......

[COLOMBO]

"You will need to be more specific with regard to your link to the Wyndham.  I think I know where you are headed with that, but am not 100% certain."





the "house (casa) with the path, but not of gold"

"while of gold bricks, the road is not paved"

note: the path is "the path to the maze"

[truthseeker2]

TS2:

Why did the girl owe money? (she spent her nights at their tables-all they 'knew' was written down)

think:

window OVERLOOKING   QQ       Babylon......

*******as an arawak you still have Dirty Hand

Dirty Hand knows who provided escort.....*******

teepees already blowing in wind because of Dirty Hand.......but will blow EVEN HARDER IF ARAWAK DIRTY HAND revealed-hint:

ALL the Arawaks (the "fetid Arawak King," too, sounds like.....) know the house that plays the poison songs......

Arawaks often play in the small houses of Babylon with offspring of the elders=the Arawak dirty hand ("the game"=prostitution)

many teepees (marriages) fall.......

sacrifice to spare the polis, spare the teepees.......

Again, sorry but your post is a bit choppy.  Are trying to say Natalee gambled at the Wyndham by posting that link?

[Lala'sMom]

Colombo
Just quoting Shango over and over again is not discussing anything.  Unless you are willing to add some explanation for why you believe this or that to be true, I fail to see your point.  I am as lost as TS2 in that regard.  Spell it out.  You did so when you equated Arawak with the polis.  I take that to mean the you consider the arawaks to all represent the polis.  Is that correct?

So tell me, do you still equate dirty hand with one of the security guards?  Which dirty hand would that be the one that can break the alibi or the one that consorts with the elder?  Do think there is more than one or are they all the same person? 

Babylonians=
Elders=
Tribe=
Lordship=

Please tell me who you think these are? TIA