SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #1

[Sam]

I always thought the 5th suspect was Lorenzo, as he was known to throw parties at his house and there were lots of rumors at the beginning that Natalee had been there. I also thought the 5th suspect referred to the 5th arrest, and there was some debate about whether the 5th person to be questioned was Lorenzo or Paulus.

There are people who are much more schooled on Codetalkers than I am, though, so maybe there's a reason why it can't be Lorenzo. I don't know if there's any evidence that he and Natalee met earlier in the week. Frankly he seems a little sleazy to me (and too old for Natalee)--not someone she'd go after. She seems like the type who would go for nice, clean-cut boys her own age--or at least ones that seemed nice and clean-cut.

But do we have any concrete reason to believe that the 5th suspect is NOT Lorenzo?

I have no idea why but I have always believed she had met Lorenzo earlier in the week. I so wish we had access to all of Natalees classmates statements. It is also possible that he looked clean cut to her at the time.

[Lala'sMom]

MuminOhio please email me at cindoal@yahoo.com. I think you might be interested in some other stuff I have too. Too lengthy to discuss here.  If you find anything you want to share here then that is okay too. Thanks.

[Lala'sMom]

Lorenzo..the elusive recluse of Aruba.  He was the subject of many FP comments early on...never have been able to connect him to anything.  He was rumored to have the parties..the really big parties with all the good drugs, I guess.  Then again if you are the local known drug supplier of all things recreational in the drug category...would you not save the best for your parties?  I think so.  He was probably just a peripheral player.  I am working on a theory about him being the 5th suspect.  So far I have been less able to make him fit than Freddy.  Paulus will be next. Any more people anyone thinks could be the 5th suspect?

[BlueKYGirl]

I have no idea why but I have always believed she had met Lorenzo earlier in the week. I so wish we had access to all of Natalees classmates statements. It is also possible that he looked clean cut to her at the time.

I've always thought that, too, but I'm open to other theories. Lorenzo could fit the profile of an older man talking to Natalee earlier in the week, depending on the definition of "older."

Do we know who identified this person as "older"? I realize that Lorenzo was probably 28 or 29 at the time, which doesn't seem "older" to most of us (we're more inclined to think of Paulus), but to Natalee's peers he would have seemed older. I guess older is in the eye of the beholder--and when you're 17 years old, almost everyone is older.

Is Freddy around the same age as Joran and Natalee, or is he slightly older?

Is it possible that Lorenzo and Natalee met at lunch (as witnessed by someone who saw her talking with an "older" man), and he was the one who was interested? I know the 5th suspect was referred to as "the boyfriend from earlier in the week." Maybe he wasn't so much of a boyfriend as he was a guy who was interested in her. This could account for the sleaze factor...I don't know Natalee, but she strikes me as the type of girl who would be nice to anyone, but could see through Lorenzo's particular brand of sleaze. (I think this because that's exactly the type of girl I was).

It's all conjecture...just trying to throw out some possibilities.

[MumInOhio]

Lala's.....where can I find the Shango/Simian posts, the ones you have said to read in context. Are they in the front page archives?

[MumInOhio]

Sorry...hit post before I thanked you in advance!!!

[MumInOhio]

I'm digesting all that Lala's and don't want to confuse but found this from when Freddie was arrested with the Kalpoes, August 2005. Remember A.B arrested with GVC for 6 hours the following April.

Police also arrested another man; a friend and neighbor of lead suspect Joran van der Sloot, Freddie Aaron Batiz (ph). 

Is there anything in the Dr Phil stuff that fits GVC and Freddy in the same date? TIA

Sorry..forgot to answer...only thing I see in there about GVC is the arrest date and nothing about Freddy around that time.

[MumInOhio]

All,

Appreciate your challenges, but my post was serious and inducing you a LOL is actually an unexpected side-effect  ). P.S. FierlJepper is a national Dutch sport and concerns jumping over a ditch (= "sloot" in Dutch ... got it?).

Just read the few Simian quotes I summarized below from the dates that he wasn't that cryptic yet and tell me what you think. To me it's pretty obvious that he already in the beginning developed the theory that the jealous first boyfriend of Natalee murdered her and that they used J2K as the scape goats (how crappy that idea might sound, it's just what's in his head). This boy isn't very "fresh" either since he apparently has killed his own dogs and harassed some of his class mates. A few student friends covered up for him and told the police that he was with them at a party all night. His dad or someone else who is very influencial in the US helped in the cover-up and removed the body from the Island. It could have gone up very high up in the US to make a deal with Aruba to keep quiet about this since otherwise the US would...

How realistic this conspiracy story is, is less relevant. Shango also poses the rethoric question of why Joran would have been made so afraid in jail (via his father?) that he kept his mouth shut ('and bit his tongue'). I'd recommend you to read their conversation again with this story in mind, it seem to fit the cryptical stuff very well. Not running away from any critical comment. 

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 2:59 pm
There’s not even a trace of her. At this point I am inclined to believe in a theory that has been going around on the island, but that I find difficult to post here.
Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 3:11 pm
What Countrymoon is saying is true. In Aruba we wonder how come WE do not get a chance to interrogate some chaperone or the group of kids that were swimming in front of the Holiday Inn until 6 in the morning.
The FBI has them quiet. The FBI is factfinding. The plan was outrageous.
Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 4:50 pm
Some people on the other side of the pond know more than what they are saying. There testimony, there’s security footage, there are witnesses.
Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 4:56 pm
The 5th suspect has an alibi so strong that he has everybody baffled.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:00 pm
The 5th suspect was the boyfriend from earlier in the week.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:03 pm
The party-goers said the 5th one was with them. He was the host. How could he have left?

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:09 pm
A scorned lover needs a motive? Drives some people to some crazy deeds.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:13 pm
A jealous boyfriend was at home with some friends. He couldn’t have done it. Sometimes friends will cover for each other.
Simian Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
June 22nd, 2005 at 5:38 pm
Checkme…check this…and please recheck:
Girl comes to Aruba. Meets cool and crazy guy in C@$ino. Goes out with him. He declares that to be the case. Can’t deny it. It’s on tape. Everybody in the C@$ino knows the group of teens, they have been drinking in there for free the whole week. After a couple of days girl meets another boy in the same C@$ino. Goes out with him.
Simian: This makes first guy really mad. So mad he confronts second boy.
First guy never denies the affair. He knows they know he was with her. However, he has an airtight alibi. Some friends say they were at home with him. Until the morning.
How can this ever be solved?

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:55 pm
He has an alibi. So tight. So tight.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 6:01 pm
The first guy she met has all the motive. The second guy is scared sh*tless in a cell.
I have heard from Americans living in Aruba and and they think something completely different.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 6:04 pm
Lucy you are wrong. It was just a simple party at his house. He was “there whole time”.

Simian Says: June 23rd, 2005 at 10:34 am
He’s too afraid to confess.
Simian Says: June 23rd, 2005 at 10:36 am
The boy was picked up at 23:00 on Sunday at Mickey D’s. Sneaked out later. Was on time for school. Don’t mix things up.

Simian Says: June 23rd, 2005 at 10:50 am
He’s afraid of the real killer. He has no way out.
Simian Says: June 23rd, 2005 at 11:03 am
1. No body; no crime.
2. A grown woman gone missing.
3. Één getuige is géén getuige. (One witness is no witness).
4. No suspect is allowed to testify against himself.
5. A confession will be thrown out of court if there is no evidence.

ONE OF THE WITNESSES IS NO WITNESS, HE IS A PERPETRATORSimian Says: June 23rd, 2005 at 11:06 am
The important “others” are the ones that supported the alibi.
No one has openly said there is no hope. Three cadaver dogs on the way. Sonar equipment to look for a body in as deep as 300 meters of water.
Simian Says: June 24th, 2005 at 2:37 pm
It’s horrible. He is a sociopath.

Simian Says: June 24th, 2005 at 2:44 pm
Killing his own dogs. Dumping them is the reservoir. Harassing his schoolmates.

Simian Says: June 24th, 2005 at 2:50 pm
This is bad. Really bad…He has a history of making himself be something he is not.
crs Says: June 24th, 2005 at 3:17 pm
Sim - when you speak of this boy I think everyone thinks you are talking about Joran but your not are you - you are talking about this other individual.
Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 10:01 pm
Of whom is the young Babylonian afraid?
Why won’t he talk? 

Lala's...crs June 24th. Who was crs? Does this mean anything? Was Simian talking about someone else? TIA

[Lala'sMom]

Mum, Did you email me?  I think I can help you with what you need to read.  I have it saved on my computer so I will need to send it to via email for now.

[MumInOhio]

Mum, Did you email me?  I think I can help you with what you need to read.  I have it saved on my computer so I will need to send it to via email for now.

Lala's sent one a while ago,10.22AM, high priority. Did you not get it? hughes.net

[Lala'sMom]

Never mind...I found you...check your email in a few.

[MumInOhio]

Joran's 8/08/05 statement.  Can be read in Dutch.

The suspect has represented that he has explained that he and the missing girl walked a bit. And that a declaration is there of someone who has seen the car of Deepak Kalpoe on, some hundreds of meters away from the fisherman’s hut.  He is asked for the logic of and an other one and is asked if he can explain why he then with the other boys who were place. (? Not sure what this paragraph is trying to say)

He was informed once again that there are direct friends that have explained that he has crapped on friends and asked them to lie about sexual activities with a girlfriend of his friends. These boys say that he takes them always in the maling (?) and manipulates.
He was faced once again with the declaration of the girl Martina, who was given something to drink, offered at the sexual community with him and as a result of which her lips tingled.The suspect did not react.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=385.0

I went to the Dutch version and it clearly mentions Martina’s name, do not see Freddy’s name in that version. But Ramm’s translation says a girlfriend of one of his friends, no mention of the name Martina. Now I have questions about whether it is Freddy’s relatives or people close to Freddy.

[Lala'sMom]

I have always wondered if we got the Gottenbos family gathering confused with Freddy's alibi.  Gottenbos at a family party in Florida...doesn't make sense since Sander would be left out, but who knows how that goes vs Freddy hosting a little get together at his place.  Did he have a separate apartment like Joran.  Given he is older, I would think so.  Maybe Freddy's family lives around the corner from the Sloots and Freddy lives elsewhere.  Anyone have any ideas?

[MumInOhio]

I have always wondered if we got the Gottenbos family gathering confused with Freddy's alibi.  Gottenbos at a family party in Florida...doesn't make sense since Sander would be left out, but who knows how that goes vs Freddy hosting a little get together at his place.  Did he have a separate apartment like Joran.  Given he is older, I would think so.  Maybe Freddy's family lives around the corner from the Sloots and Freddy lives elsewhere.  Anyone have any ideas?

I thought I recalled Koen being at a friend's party and that Freddy had the family reunion. Also recalling Melody saying Freddy was supposed to stay at the van der Sloots. Have always wondered about that. Think there is a picture around of the back of Freddy's house, so will go and see if I can find it. I guess if we knew where Koen, Freddy, Val and Sebastian really were that night the picture would be a whole lot clearer.
Thanks

[Lala'sMom]

What color car did Freddy drive?

[MumInOhio]

What color car did Freddy drive?

There's a grey/silver one in the picture of the back of the house. I was just looking at it over in the pictures/maps in the Important Case Documents. Are we looking for white or silver. Guido's was white-the new one he sold before he rushed off.
Jaime's was green.

[MumInOhio]

Thought this may make things a little clearer concerning our 5th suspect. Of course I could be wrong, and it may be LVR, but from what I can tell he was not even interviewed until well after Paulus was arrested.



With Tyler’s post from the other night about mid-June 2005, in mind  and remembering the happenings in Aruba on June 10th and 11th, I found it very interesting that Satish is conspicuous by the absence of  his statements from 6/12 until 6/18.

6/11  statement
6/17  Judge Wit-I presume court appearance for another 8 days
6/18 16.10 statement
6/18  17.40 – face to face Steve Croes
6/18  17.50 – face to face Joran

6/12 to 6/18
Freddy – 4 statements
Koen – 2 statements
Sander – 2 statements
Jaime – 1 statement
Paulus – 1 statement
Steve Croes – 2 statements
Florencia Metz – 2 statements
Deepak – 5 statements and face to face with Joran
Joran – 5 statements and assume the above face to face. Actually 2 – one with Satish and one with Deepak.  Interesting that there is a 7 page statement at 17.45 on 6/18, which is 5 minutes before the face to face with Satish.

Guido had already been questioned, the last time being the notice about leaving Aruba, June 7th.

Some observations:
 Satish mentions Steve Croes in his 6/11 statement and Croes was not questioned until 6/15. Deepak mentions Paulus in his addendum of 6/11 and Paulus is not questioned until 6/14.

From K2 statements of 6/11: Satish said Deepak talked to someone he(Satish) didn’t know on arrival at C&Cs. Deepak said Joran bought someone he(Deepak) didn’t know a drink on arrival at C&Cs. Deepak says Satish was driving. Satish says Deepak was driving. Both said big, long-legged Joran was in the back seat!

Not one of the above, other than Joran and Deepak had been questioned before the 12th. There are 7, 8 and 14 page statements from Joran and Deepak during this time. No questions for Satish after June 11th? Not until June 18th. 

[Lala'sMom]

Candidates for 5th suspect:

Freddy
Lorenzo
Paulus

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 4:56 pm
The 5th suspect has an alibi so strong that he has everybody baffled.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:00 pm
The 5th suspect was the boyfriend from earlier in the week.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:03 pm
The party-goers said the 5th one was with them. He was the host. How could he have left?

Girl comes to Aruba. Meets cool and crazy guy in C@$ino. Goes out with him. He declares that to be the case. Can’t deny it. It’s on tape. Everybody in the C@$ino knows the group of teens, they have been drinking in there for free the whole week. After a couple of days girl meets another boy in the same C@$ino. Goes out with him.
Simian: This makes first guy really mad. So mad he confronts second boy.
First guy never denies the affair. He knows they know he was with her. However, he has an airtight alibi. Some friends say they were at home with him. Until the morning.
How can this ever be solved?

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:55 pm
He has an alibi. So tight. So tight.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 6:01 pm
The first guy she met has all the motive. The second guy is scared sh*tless in a cell.
I have heard from Americans living in Aruba and and they think something completely different.






So which one fits the best? 

[MumInOhio]

Candidates for 5th suspect:

Freddy
Lorenzo
Paulus

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 4:56 pm
The 5th suspect has an alibi so strong that he has everybody baffled.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:00 pm
The 5th suspect was the boyfriend from earlier in the week.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:03 pm
The party-goers said the 5th one was with them. He was the host. How could he have left?

Girl comes to Aruba. Meets cool and crazy guy in C@$ino. Goes out with him. He declares that to be the case. Can’t deny it. It’s on tape. Everybody in the C@$ino knows the group of teens, they have been drinking in there for free the whole week. After a couple of days girl meets another boy in the same C@$ino. Goes out with him.
Simian: This makes first guy really mad. So mad he confronts second boy.
First guy never denies the affair. He knows they know he was with her. However, he has an airtight alibi. Some friends say they were at home with him. Until the morning.
How can this ever be solved?

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:55 pm
He has an alibi. So tight. So tight.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 6:01 pm
The first guy she met has all the motive. The second guy is scared sh*tless in a cell.
I have heard from Americans living in Aruba and and they think something completely different.






So which one fits the best? 

Not Paulus, no way. though he may have been hosting a party!

Lorenzo may fit this best, only because one of the Max' was his alibi. But if we look at other posts referring to the hand in the photo it appears that Freddy fits.

Sure would like to know what was said between Lorenzo and the Judge when he was detained recently. Had started to think LVR was a red herring, until I started reading all this again.

I wonder with Freddy working next door to the HI how much contact he had with the MB'ers? He certainly would know when the groups arrived. Have read conflicting reports as to when Joran actually met the group. Some said that evening, some said he'd been hanging around for days.

The two 302s we have really don't give us enough on Natalee's whereabouts earlier in the week, other than C&Cs. If they, Natalee and the boyfriends 1 and 2, met at a casino, it would have to be either the HI or the Marriott I believe. Haven't seen anything to say that they went anywhere else other than the boat excursion on Saturday.

Still have a lot of reading to do and will keep this all in mind.

[MumInOhio]

This one has Freddy written all over it.

187.   Name: Simian | E-mail: xx | IP: xx
He had to be let go.
Posted Jun 22, 5:16 PM | Edit Comment | Delete Comment | Edit Post “Beth Twitty and the Van der Sloots' Meet” | View Post


Statement from Freddy on 6/17 - to me his status is questionable from this time - and then no more statements until 6/28, coincidentally the same date as Lorenzo's statemnt. Freddy no longer appears to be a suspect on the Dr Phil listing. Simian says above: He had to be let go.