SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #1

[Kermit]

Shango Says: June 30th, 2005 at 1:49 am
If the head of the beast is in plain view it is folly to attack protected flanks.

Shango Says: June 30th, 2005 at 2:11 am
All Secrets are hidden in Plain View


Brickell Bay Beach Club
http://www.brickellbayaruba.com/

a criminal enterprise that profits from gambling/narcotics/moneylaundering


" ... Guests at Brickell Bay have use of the beach by the Wyndham ... "

the Wyndham is where Paulus led Beth from his home to find Joran. But Joran was not at the wyndham!


Remember how Joran and his friends had a room at the Marriott.....(the picture with the belt around the boys neck was taken at a Marriott in Aruba)


ashley79 Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 42 Birmingham, AL
Posted on: 1:37 pm, May 31, 2005
She left with a guy from Carlos and Charlie's, and the cops found out that he is a local drug dealer.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g147247-i144-k158081-o350-Aruba.html

________________________________________________________________


Michael POSNER is also the owner of Brickel Bay Beach Club in Aruba, as well as, multiple online gambling sites affiliated with the Excelsior Casino.

When asked about Michael Posner Tito Lacle said:
TITO: HE LEFT THE ISLAND BUT REASONS UNKNOWN.. HE ALSO OWNS A COUPLE OF OTHER PLACES ON THE ISLAND. HIS NAME IS MICHEAL POSNER.


This is typical money laundering method:
Have a guest that is non-existant.

Perhaps a Marriott Execuitve would have that kind of power to comp rooms and no one knows.



"a hotel employee posted something about it in June last year"

____________________________________________________________________

 #699 ALLYINMIAMI

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/NATALEE/NATALEEtimeline.html


i am sure u all have already seen this, but it is a great source. Columbo=several connections. Brickell Bay Drive in MIAMI, is a huge real estate market; very lucrative. In addition to that “PIPKIN� (douglas) was one of the initial buyers when the area was first becoming developed. A (Posner) and Pipkin (nickname) Redbo, were in the Military together. Both placed bets at the track here in Miami, last Spring..on the same race. This seems to be at the approximate time that the VDS were here.
Wednesday, February 22, 2006 at 10:12 pm

[truthseeker2]

Probably because it has been very difficult to determine what is bogus and what is not.  The thread is about Simian and Shango and who they may have been posting about.  That's the only reason.

Personally, I have not idea if Lorenzo is involved.  He was questioned, therefore he will be discussed.  And based on Simian's posts, it appears that he was speaking about Lorenzo.

I understand.  But once one knows with a pretty high degree of certainty that a route is a cul-de-sac, one can either keep going back and forth or exit, to look for an alternative road. 

At one point one has to be willing to conclude that Lorenzo is no longer a suspect candidate, given the “airtight” alibi, the developments of the case post Simian and that people that possess more direct information than we do -like family and pro-family communicators- have not placed Natalee at his place the night she disappeared.

Involving Lorenzo is an additional variable that enhances the narrative aspects of the case, but doesn’t contribute to clarifying critical events surrounding the disappearance.

I haven't seen anything in either Simian or Shango that CLEARLY identifies anyone except that 'Dirty Hand' is the 'Chief of Polis' which is a Shango post.  So by your logic, all of it is a 'cul-de-sac'. LOL

As far as Simian, I do not believe he is Clyde Burke, but I do believe someone close to the investigation was talking the person posting as Simian.  Therefore, as I said earlier, I do believe reading the Simian posts provides some level of insight into what direction ALE was headed during that time.  With that said, the 5th suspect in the Simian posts does not appear to be Paulus in my opinion...unless Paulus had a party that night.  It was known that Lorenzo hosted a party that night because that has been part of the alibi, which I should add was provided by his 'friends'.   In my mind this still makes Lorenzo a possible suspect.

The fact that we have not seen any hard evidence that Natalee was ever at Lorenzo's house does not necessarily mean she wasn't.  The idea that we would have been told this is just as much speculation as anything we try to interpret from the posts.  After all, even Nadira Kalpoe will tell you, everyone lies...even big people lie.  Given what little we do know as fact, that Natalee left with Joran and the Kalpoes and they initially lied about where they left her, the only other things we have are Joran's subsequent proven lies and what little information was formally released by ALE.  Everything else leads us all into that cul-de-sac because until ALE, Joran, the Kalpoes, and the MB students ALL tell the truth there is nothing to do but speculate.  Therefore, we have a thread just to discuss those cryptic Simian and Shango posts.

Glad you were able to join us!

[Lala'sMom]

Stom
Please tell me how you would clarify the events?  What would you base your assumptions on?  According to your way of thinking there can be no revisiting of any aspect once it has been determined to some extent that it is a dead end.  Given that premise, I think that since there is no one to identify Satish as being in the back seat of that car near the pond we can eliminate him as a suspect .  Therefore we should not discuss him any longer due to the fact that a witness says they did not see him there.  It would place him solely at home and away from the actions of body disposal or burial or clean up.  The witness only said there was a 3rd person in the back seat.

[klaasend]

Posted by Destiny in the LCD thread and moved here:

RE: SHANGO

I will need a MOD to either put this in it's proper place or delete it....Thanks Dest

Santeria: Religion of the Masses

    March 06, 2002
    By Dr. Kwame Nantambu

    The name by which the religion is now most commonly known, "Santeria," is a pejorative term first applied by the Spanish to the religious practices of the peasantry. It was used as a derogatory reference to the unusual amount of devotion and attention paid to the Catholic Saints, often in preference to Jesus Christ. This term was again used in Cuba to identify the "pagan" religion. The Yoruba devotion to the Orishas, who were often referred to as "Santos" ("saints") by both slave and slave-owners, was mistakenly seen as the "fanatical" worship of demigods and the neglect of "God."

    Therefore, the demeaning term "Santeria" was ascribed to the religious practices of the so-called "savages." Only in recent years, after having the label applied by outsiders for an extended period of time as the term began to be used by members of the religion.

    Santeria or La Regla Lucumi originated in West Africa in what is now Nigeria and Benin. It is the traditional religion of the Yoruba peoples. The European slave trade brought many of these people to the shores of Cuba, Brazil, Haiti, Trinidad and Puerto Rico, among others. But along with the bodies being brought over for sale into a life of misery, something else was being brought along, namely their souls and their religion.

    The God Olorun interacts with the world and humankind through emissaries. These emissaries are called Orishas. The Orishas rule over every force of nature and every aspect of human life. They are approachable and can be counted on to come to the aid of their followers, guiding them to a better life, materially as well as spiritually.

    Communication between Orishas and humankind is accomplished through ritual, prayer, divination and ebo or offerings (which include sacrifice). Songs, rhythms, and trance possessions are also means with which followers and believers interact with the Orishas and how they are able to affect their day to day lives so that they may lead deeper and fuller lives during their stay in this world.

    In the New World, the Orishas and much of the religion was hidden behind a façade of Catholicism with the Orishas themselves represented by various saints. The slave owners would then say: "look at how pious this slave is. She spends all of ter time worshipping Saint Barbara." Unbeknownst to them, the slave would actually be praying to Shango, the Lord of Lighting, fire and the dance, perhaps even praying for deliverance from that very slave owner.

    This how the religion came to be known as Santeria. The memory of this period of Afrikan history is also why many in our religion regard the term Santeria as derogatory. The traditions of Santeria are fiercely preserved and full knowledge of the rites, songs, and language are prerequisites to any deep involvement in the religion.

    Initiates must follow a strict regimen and are answerable to Olorun and the Orishas for their actions. As a person passes through each initiation in the tradition, this knowledge deepens and their abilities and responsibilities grow accordingly. In fact, during the first year of their initiation into the priesthood, the initiate or Iyawo or 'bride' of the Orisha must dress in white for an entire year.

    The Iyawo must not look into a mirror, touch anyone or allow to be touched, and they may not wear makeup, or go out at night for this year. Santeria is a syncretistic religion of Caribbean origin. It incorporates the worship of the Orisha (literally "head guardian") and beliefs of the Yoruba and Bantu people in Southern Nigeria, Senegal and Guinea Coast. These are combined with elements of worship from Roman Catholicism.

    Its origins date back to the European slave trade when Yorubas were forcibly transported from Afrika to the Caribbean. They were typically baptized by the Roman Catholic Church upon arrival, and their native practices were suppressed. However, they developed a novel way of keeping their old beliefs alive by substituting each Orisha of their traditional Afrikan religions with a corresponding Euro-Christian Saint.

    Many traditions within the religion recognize different equivalencies. One common example include:
    Babalz Ayi became St. Lazarus (patron of the sick)
    Shango became St. Barbara (controls thunder, lightning, fire.)
    Eleggua or Elegba became St. Anthony (controls roads, gates, etc.)
    Obatala became Our Lady of Las Merceds, and the Resurredted Christ
    (father of creation; source of spirituality)
    Oggzn became St. Peter (patron of war)
    Oshzn became Our Lady of Charity (controls money, sensuality.)

    Santeria is currently concentrated in:
    Cuba and other Caribbean islands and the Hispanic population in Florida, New Jersey, New York City and Los Angeles in the United States, Argentina, Brazil, Columbia, Mexico, Venezuela, France, the Netherlands and Puerto Rico.

[SunnyinTX]

Good Afternoon to all the shango/simian fans.

I have a couple questions. As most of you know I am not a shango/simian follower, but don't knock anyone who is.

If either knew anything,(and I am not saying they did or didn't know anything),  why the mumbo jumbo? why not just tell what they knew, collect the reward and help obtain justice.

And why did they disappear?

I am interested in reading what you think about these questions.  TIA

[truthseeker2]

Good Afternoon to all the shango/simian fans.

I have a couple questions. As most of you know I am not a shango/simian follower, but don't knock anyone who is.

If either knew anything,(and I am not saying they did or didn't know anything),  why the mumbo jumbo? why not just tell what they knew, collect the reward and help obtain justice.

And why did they disappear?

I am interested in reading what you think about these questions.  TIA

Hey Sunny!,

Must be a slow day on LCD.  lol  Why else come here and ask?  I'm sure you have asked before, but I'll give you my take on it.

Whether or not either of these posters knew anymore than the rest of us is anyone's guess.  Absent real facts, studying and discussing these two posters is not any different than posting opinons in the LCD.  Everything is an assumption, isn't it?

For Simian, you could make the argument that he was getting information from someone close the the 'investigation' because he posted things that could later be verified as activity by ALE.  So at least there is some insight into what was going on at that level.  His posts became a bit more cryptic which could be argued as a need to not be so obvious as directed by his source.  Or it could be that ALE was getting a little unnerved that someone was providing information to the bloggers that they did not want put out there.

Shango, on the other hand is a bit more difficult.  If Shango really knew something I will be totally pizzed off because he should have taken what he knew to someone who could actually do something about it.  If Shango, on the other hand, knew something and was afraid to be identified because of any reprecussions that may have, he would be more cryptic so as not to give himself up.  That may be a little out there, but then so are some of the theories that get passed around without substantial evidence to support them.  We are all doing that so what difference is it for Shango to do it in a riddle format?  One thing seems certain, Shango is weaving a picture of corruption, which is lin ine with a lot of what I see on LCD.

Does this answer the question?

[Stom]

It's obvious you and I will never agree on this so I am not going to pursue it any more.  Simian clearly states the raves need to be pinched.  That tells me they were there and knew what happened.  To me that is the same as turning their heads to the truth.  I am not the person that postulated that Burke was Simian that came from elsewhere. I have never claimed that I believed that Burke was Simian. I have never claimed that I believe any of this stuff...it's just interesting to compare what was happening to what they have stated.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  Simian is the only one that mentions a 5th suspect, so I am confused what you mean it isn't there.

 I think I am hanging up my tango shoes, this thread is wearing thin on me and I am tired maybe someone else will argue the point with you. Lorenzo was clearly suspected early on.  You choose what you will.  I can't prove it anymore than I can prove that Shango was not on Aruba and was a total idiot.  The entire point is to discuss it, I see there is no sense in trying to dissuade you from your point.  To each his own. 

It’s fine not to agree, and in consequence, I don’t believe hindsight is ever 20/20.  Whenever analyzing backwards, information is always incomplete, but we tend to feel a false notion that in the present we posses the knowledge that would have allowed us to make a better thought process, in order to obtain a more desirable result, in the past.  That is just pure BS…knowledge about the past is as imperfect as about the future, and it doesn’t give us the capacity to explain a group of facts any better than before they took place.  If doubtful about this, just count how many times you have made the same essential mistake over and over.

[Stom]

Just one more thing....everything in this case is not as cut and dried as some think.  I know there are those that love the KISS theory, but the more I see the more I don't think it can apply here.  JMO

Keep It Shrewd and Sharp or the another definition?

[truthseeker2]

It's obvious you and I will never agree on this so I am not going to pursue it any more.  Simian clearly states the raves need to be pinched.  That tells me they were there and knew what happened.  To me that is the same as turning their heads to the truth.  I am not the person that postulated that Burke was Simian that came from elsewhere. I have never claimed that I believed that Burke was Simian. I have never claimed that I believe any of this stuff...it's just interesting to compare what was happening to what they have stated.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  Simian is the only one that mentions a 5th suspect, so I am confused what you mean it isn't there.

 I think I am hanging up my tango shoes, this thread is wearing thin on me and I am tired maybe someone else will argue the point with you. Lorenzo was clearly suspected early on.  You choose what you will.  I can't prove it anymore than I can prove that Shango was not on Aruba and was a total idiot.  The entire point is to discuss it, I see there is no sense in trying to dissuade you from your point.  To each his own. 

It’s fine not to agree, and in consequence, I don’t believe hindsight is ever 20/20.  Whenever analyzing backwards, information is always incomplete, but we tend to feel a false notion that in the present we posses the knowledge that would have allowed us to make a better thought process, in order to obtain a more desirable result, in the past.  That is just pure BS…knowledge about the past is as imperfect as about the future, and it doesn’t give us the capacity to explain a group of facts any better than before they took place.  If doubtful about this, just count how many times you have made the same essential mistake over and over.

I repectfully have to disagree with you here.  The saying 'hindsight is 20/20' DOES mean you can see what happened after the fact when the situation is truly resolved.  Making the same mistake over and over can be, and probably is, a result of stom_ity or hard-headedness.

[Stom]

I haven't seen anything in either Simian or Shango that CLEARLY identifies anyone except that 'Dirty Hand' is the 'Chief of Polis' which is a Shango post.  So by your logic, all of it is a 'cul-de-sac'. LOL

As far as Simian, I do not believe he is Clyde Burke, but I do believe someone close to the investigation was talking the person posting as Simian.  Therefore, as I said earlier, I do believe reading the Simian posts provides some level of insight into what direction ALE was headed during that time.  With that said, the 5th suspect in the Simian posts does not appear to be Paulus in my opinion...unless Paulus had a party that night.  It was known that Lorenzo hosted a party that night because that has been part of the alibi, which I should add was provided by his 'friends'.   In my mind this still makes Lorenzo a possible suspect.

The fact that we have not seen any hard evidence that Natalee was ever at Lorenzo's house does not necessarily mean she wasn't.  The idea that we would have been told this is just as much speculation as anything we try to interpret from the posts.  After all, even Nadira Kalpoe will tell you, everyone lies...even big people lie.  Given what little we do know as fact, that Natalee left with Joran and the Kalpoes and they initially lied about where they left her, the only other things we have are Joran's subsequent proven lies and what little information was formally released by ALE.  Everything else leads us all into that cul-de-sac because until ALE, Joran, the Kalpoes, and the MB students ALL tell the truth there is nothing to do but speculate.  Therefore, we have a thread just to discuss those cryptic Simian and Shango posts.

Glad you were able to join us!

I don’t think Shango identified anyone.  Assuming for a moment that they were indeed trying to provide well intended information, then we have to consider the comments that brought about the believe that Dirty Hand is the Chief of Police:

Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 9:53 pm
The Simian thinks that Babalú is clueless about who the Babylonians are. The Simian thinks that is really funny.
The Simian will make an exception and answer: The gamblers knew he girl.

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 10:30 pm
You always find forbidden desires in the small houses of Babylon
the girl knew this
Find DirtyHand! He too walked in this house of Babylon.
But not to satiate desire.

Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.

Shango Says:June 27th, 2005 at 4:00 am

Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting

We have that Simian and Shango, fraud or not, both knew what Babylonian means and Simian thought funny that Babalu was clueless about who the Babylonians are.  Babalu took a shot at guessing the Shango 9:53 pm post, and afterwards Shango emits the “opened a window” comment, but never made a confirmation about Dirty Hand being any or none of several Chiefs of Police of different ranks, within the Aruban Police Department.  So we ended up with a case of conjecture based on defective premises.

[Stom]

Stom
Please tell me how you would clarify the events?  What would you base your assumptions on?  According to your way of thinking there can be no revisiting of any aspect once it has been determined to some extent that it is a dead end.  Given that premise, I think that since there is no one to identify Satish as being in the back seat of that car near the pond we can eliminate him as a suspect .  Therefore we should not discuss him any longer due to the fact that a witness says they did not see him there.  It would place him solely at home and away from the actions of body disposal or burial or clean up.  The witness only said there was a 3rd person in the back seat.

Clarifying events is a personal choice process whereby one discards information considered useless.  Lorenzo, Shango and plenty of peripheral information about Aruba forcefully assumed as meaningful to the case, only serve to reduce objectivity and increase analysis devoid of substance.

[Stom]

It's obvious you and I will never agree on this so I am not going to pursue it any more.  Simian clearly states the raves need to be pinched.  That tells me they were there and knew what happened.  To me that is the same as turning their heads to the truth.  I am not the person that postulated that Burke was Simian that came from elsewhere. I have never claimed that I believed that Burke was Simian. I have never claimed that I believe any of this stuff...it's just interesting to compare what was happening to what they have stated.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  Simian is the only one that mentions a 5th suspect, so I am confused what you mean it isn't there.

 I think I am hanging up my tango shoes, this thread is wearing thin on me and I am tired maybe someone else will argue the point with you. Lorenzo was clearly suspected early on.  You choose what you will.  I can't prove it anymore than I can prove that Shango was not on Aruba and was a total idiot.  The entire point is to discuss it, I see there is no sense in trying to dissuade you from your point.  To each his own. 

It’s fine not to agree, and in consequence, I don’t believe hindsight is ever 20/20.  Whenever analyzing backwards, information is always incomplete, but we tend to feel a false notion that in the present we posses the knowledge that would have allowed us to make a better thought process, in order to obtain a more desirable result, in the past.  That is just pure BS…knowledge about the past is as imperfect as about the future, and it doesn’t give us the capacity to explain a group of facts any better than before they took place.  If doubtful about this, just count how many times you have made the same essential mistake over and over.

I repectfully have to disagree with you here.  The saying 'hindsight is 20/20' DOES mean you can see what happened after the fact when the situation is truly resolved.  Making the same mistake over and over can be, and probably is, a result of stom_ity or hard-headedness.

Maybe...but maybe "hindsight is 20/20" is just a cliché, and it may very well be also that more than one of us suffers from stom_ity.  I am willing to bet millions of us.  But if it just me, so be it. 

I'll leave you guys until tomorrow.  Time to head for work.

[Lala'sMom]

Stom
Please tell me how you would clarify the events?  What would you base your assumptions on?  According to your way of thinking there can be no revisiting of any aspect once it has been determined to some extent that it is a dead end.  Given that premise, I think that since there is no one to identify Satish as being in the back seat of that car near the pond we can eliminate him as a suspect .  Therefore we should not discuss him any longer due to the fact that a witness says they did not see him there.  It would place him solely at home and away from the actions of body disposal or burial or clean up.  The witness only said there was a 3rd person in the back seat.

Clarifying events is a personal choice process whereby one discards information considered useless.  Lorenzo, Shango and plenty of peripheral information about Aruba forcefully assumed as meaningful to the case, only serve to reduce objectivity and increase analysis devoid of substance.

What would you be discussing as of substance to this case? Please list this for me as I am obviously missing your point. Again, if you go with your premise then anything that is not verifiable as a definite fact does not fit your criteria. Then please refrain from discussing the Aru Bay videos, the witness statement of the gardener, some think it's unreliable also. Which PV of Joran's would you choose to discard?  The first lie or the subsequent ones that we know contain various lies and inconsistencies.  If you think one is a lie then all are a lie.  I happen to think there is a grain of truth in each of them. Oh yes, let's please refrain from any discussion of things we only think happened and concentrate on only what we know.  Maybe that is why this case hasn't been solved?  No one has bothered to nit pick the details to uncover the truth. 

In case you didn't notice this is the Shango/Simian thread.  That is why it's here to analyze these riddles and posts.  If you seek anything other than clarity of these two maybe you should try posting on the LCD.  They discuss more than just Shango over there. Beware though, we talk Simian and Shango there also. 

[truthseeker2]

I haven't seen anything in either Simian or Shango that CLEARLY identifies anyone except that 'Dirty Hand' is the 'Chief of Polis' which is a Shango post.  So by your logic, all of it is a 'cul-de-sac'. LOL

As far as Simian, I do not believe he is Clyde Burke, but I do believe someone close to the investigation was talking the person posting as Simian.  Therefore, as I said earlier, I do believe reading the Simian posts provides some level of insight into what direction ALE was headed during that time.  With that said, the 5th suspect in the Simian posts does not appear to be Paulus in my opinion...unless Paulus had a party that night.  It was known that Lorenzo hosted a party that night because that has been part of the alibi, which I should add was provided by his 'friends'.   In my mind this still makes Lorenzo a possible suspect.

The fact that we have not seen any hard evidence that Natalee was ever at Lorenzo's house does not necessarily mean she wasn't.  The idea that we would have been told this is just as much speculation as anything we try to interpret from the posts.  After all, even Nadira Kalpoe will tell you, everyone lies...even big people lie.  Given what little we do know as fact, that Natalee left with Joran and the Kalpoes and they initially lied about where they left her, the only other things we have are Joran's subsequent proven lies and what little information was formally released by ALE.  Everything else leads us all into that cul-de-sac because until ALE, Joran, the Kalpoes, and the MB students ALL tell the truth there is nothing to do but speculate.  Therefore, we have a thread just to discuss those cryptic Simian and Shango posts.

Glad you were able to join us!

I don’t think Shango identified anyone.  Assuming for a moment that they were indeed trying to provide well intended information, then we have to consider the comments that brought about the believe that Dirty Hand is the Chief of Police:

Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 9:53 pm
The Simian thinks that Babalú is clueless about who the Babylonians are. The Simian thinks that is really funny.
The Simian will make an exception and answer: The gamblers knew he girl.

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 10:30 pm
You always find forbidden desires in the small houses of Babylon
the girl knew this
Find DirtyHand! He too walked in this house of Babylon.
But not to satiate desire.

Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.

Shango Says:June 27th, 2005 at 4:00 am

Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting

We have that Simian and Shango, fraud or not, both knew what Babylonian means and Simian thought funny that Babalu was clueless about who the Babylonians are.  Babalu took a shot at guessing the Shango 9:53 pm post, and afterwards Shango emits the “opened a window” comment, but never made a confirmation about Dirty Hand being any or none of several Chiefs of Police of different ranks, within the Aruban Police Department.  So we ended up with a case of conjecture based on defective premises.

Let's not confuse the identity quest of the poster of that time. 

Bablu posted this to Shango, to which Shango did not reply:

Babalú on June 26th, 2005 9:47 pm
Shango
I read something about ganbanging a 14 yr. old tourist and filming it. But this was not attributed to the duo of Babylonians, but to another group of kids, including Van Rijn, Aredszetc.

Simian chose to respond in this manner:

Simian on June 26th, 2005 9:53 pm
The Simain thinks that Babalú is clueless about who the Babylonians are. The Simian thinks that is really funny.
The Simian will make an exception and answer: The gamblers knew he girl.

Interesting when you read this because Simian chided Babalu about his attempt to name 'Babylonians', yet Simian only tried to leave a Shango clue in "The gamblers knew the girl".  Simian does not try to id the Babylonians.

Shango confirmed the statement of Babalu here:

Shango Says:June 27th, 2005 at 4:00 am
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting

and again:

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:12 pm
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his
12:30 AM posting


based on Bablu's post of:

Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.


Shango confirms this again when responding to Drax:

Shango on June 27th, 2005 11:01 pm
The Drax asks a question for which he already provided an answer.

who posted:

drax on June 27th, 2005 10:57 pm
DirtyHand has walked through the maze:…is DirtyHand Poppa VDS?

At know time did Shango provide an affirmative response to the question of Dirty Hand expect to Babalu.

[SunnyinTX]

Good Afternoon to all the shango/simian fans.

I have a couple questions. As most of you know I am not a shango/simian follower, but don't knock anyone who is.

If either knew anything,(and I am not saying they did or didn't know anything),  why the mumbo jumbo? why not just tell what they knew, collect the reward and help obtain justice.

And why did they disappear?

I am interested in reading what you think about these questions.  TIA

Hey Sunny!,

Must be a slow day on LCD.  lol  Why else come here and ask?  I'm sure you have asked before, but I'll give you my take on it.

Whether or not either of these posters knew anymore than the rest of us is anyone's guess.  Absent real facts, studying and discussing these two posters is not any different than posting opinons in the LCD.  Everything is an assumption, isn't it?

For Simian, you could make the argument that he was getting information from someone close the the 'investigation' because he posted things that could later be verified as activity by ALE.  So at least there is some insight into what was going on at that level.  His posts became a bit more cryptic which could be argued as a need to not be so obvious as directed by his source.  Or it could be that ALE was getting a little unnerved that someone was providing information to the bloggers that they did not want put out there.

Shango, on the other hand is a bit more difficult.  If Shango really knew something I will be totally pizzed off because he should have taken what he knew to someone who could actually do something about it.  If Shango, on the other hand, knew something and was afraid to be identified because of any reprecussions that may have, he would be more cryptic so as not to give himself up.  That may be a little out there, but then so are some of the theories that get passed around without substantial evidence to support them.  We are all doing that so what difference is it for Shango to do it in a riddle format?  One thing seems certain, Shango is weaving a picture of corruption, which is lin ine with a lot of what I see on LCD.

Does this answer the question?

Hi Truth.....just for the record...I have not asked before...and I asked it here since this is the S&S thread....thanks for your reply...I will not make this mistake again...

[truthseeker2]

Good Afternoon to all the shango/simian fans.

I have a couple questions. As most of you know I am not a shango/simian follower, but don't knock anyone who is.

If either knew anything,(and I am not saying they did or didn't know anything),  why the mumbo jumbo? why not just tell what they knew, collect the reward and help obtain justice.

And why did they disappear?

I am interested in reading what you think about these questions.  TIA

Hey Sunny!,

Must be a slow day on LCD.  lol  Why else come here and ask?  I'm sure you have asked before, but I'll give you my take on it.

Whether or not either of these posters knew anymore than the rest of us is anyone's guess.  Absent real facts, studying and discussing these two posters is not any different than posting opinons in the LCD.  Everything is an assumption, isn't it?

For Simian, you could make the argument that he was getting information from someone close the the 'investigation' because he posted things that could later be verified as activity by ALE.  So at least there is some insight into what was going on at that level.  His posts became a bit more cryptic which could be argued as a need to not be so obvious as directed by his source.  Or it could be that ALE was getting a little unnerved that someone was providing information to the bloggers that they did not want put out there.

Shango, on the other hand is a bit more difficult.  If Shango really knew something I will be totally pizzed off because he should have taken what he knew to someone who could actually do something about it.  If Shango, on the other hand, knew something and was afraid to be identified because of any reprecussions that may have, he would be more cryptic so as not to give himself up.  That may be a little out there, but then so are some of the theories that get passed around without substantial evidence to support them.  We are all doing that so what difference is it for Shango to do it in a riddle format?  One thing seems certain, Shango is weaving a picture of corruption, which is lin ine with a lot of what I see on LCD.

Does this answer the question?

Hi Truth.....just for the record...I have not asked before...and I asked it here since this is the S&S thread....thanks for your reply...I will not make this mistake again...

If a question has not been asked before then it is not a mistake to ask it the first time!  Sorry if you were offended.  I meant no harm.

[sharon]

Not looking to Tango 

I just want to share a thought that came to me last night as I was reading all of the posts here.

The 'gamblers' knew the girl....and all the 'gambler's' references.....

The gamblers -- Joran, Paulus, Deepak, Guido, Andre Santos,his father, Elvis...

It's all right there. In your posts.

[Stom]

What would you be discussing as of substance to this case? Please list this for me as I am obviously missing your point. Again, if you go with your premise then anything that is not verifiable as a definite fact does not fit your criteria. Then please refrain from discussing the Aru Bay videos, the witness statement of the gardener, some think it's unreliable also. Which PV of Joran's would you choose to discard?  The first lie or the subsequent ones that we know contain various lies and inconsistencies.  If you think one is a lie then all are a lie.  I happen to think there is a grain of truth in each of them. Oh yes, let's please refrain from any discussion of things we only think happened and concentrate on only what we know.  Maybe that is why this case hasn't been solved?  No one has bothered to nit pick the details to uncover the truth. 

In case you didn't notice this is the Shango/Simian thread.  That is why it's here to analyze these riddles and posts.  If you seek anything other than clarity of these two maybe you should try posting on the LCD.  They discuss more than just Shango over there. Beware though, we talk Simian and Shango there also. 

As you say, this is the Shango/Simian thread and my comments in this thread express believes about the contents and possible motives behind both these characters.

The first comment I made in this thread pertained to the desired evolvement of the proposed discussion, or “who are they and what did they know”.  I expressed thinking that Simian reported inside information with personal views and opinions added, and that Shango was a quack.

From the perspective of my assumptions about them, it doesn’t make sense to continue to discuss Lorenzo as a potential suspect.  Available information from the Simian, ALE, the press, other Aruba posters, pretty much indicate that the night Natalee disappeared he was the host of a party, that he was there “whole time” and that many can attest to that.  In addition, I assume that if by any minimal chance there was indication that Natalee was at the rave, Beth, Dave or another pro-Natalee meaningful source would have publicly made mention of it.

With respect to your comment “Oh yes, let's please refrain from any discussion of things we only think happened and concentrate on only what we know.”, I agree, it would be an absurdity.  In reality we don’t know anything.  We discuss things we think happened or could have happened, based on limited, doubtful, biased, or freely interpreted S & S posts.

My purpose is not to antagonize you, or Lala’s Mom or anyone else.  In theses discussions I think we will agree on some, disagree on others (or most).  If the intention is to hold an earnest exchange of views based on personal perspectives as opposed to views within the social contexts of the collectivity, the discussions will be good, and prosper, whether in agreement or disagreement.  But if not, it will most likely die or evolve into repetitive chitchat.

[truthseeker2]

Not looking to Tango 

I just want to share a thought that came to me last night as I was reading all of the posts here.

The 'gamblers' knew the girl....and all the 'gambler's' references.....

The gamblers -- Joran, Paulus, Deepak, Guido, Andre Santos,his father, Elvis...

It's all right there. In your posts.

Yes, I have seen that as well.  Members of that little group were all gambling with on another for two straight days.  05/29 - Joran, Paulus, Andre and his father.  05/30 Joran, Andre, Guido and Deepak.

[Stom]

Let's not confuse the identity quest of the poster of that time. 

Bablu posted this to Shango, to which Shango did not reply:

Babalú on June 26th, 2005 9:47 pm
Shango
I read something about ganbanging a 14 yr. old tourist and filming it. But this was not attributed to the duo of Babylonians, but to another group of kids, including Van Rijn, Aredszetc.

Simian chose to respond in this manner:

Simian on June 26th, 2005 9:53 pm
The Simain thinks that Babalú is clueless about who the Babylonians are. The Simian thinks that is really funny.
The Simian will make an exception and answer: The gamblers knew he girl.

Interesting when you read this because Simian chided Babalu about his attempt to name 'Babylonians', yet Simian only tried to leave a Shango clue in "The gamblers knew the girl".  Simian does not try to id the Babylonians.

Shango confirmed the statement of Babalu here:

Shango Says:June 27th, 2005 at 4:00 am
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his 12:30 posting

and again:

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:12 pm
Babalu finally opened a window with a view into the house of Babylon with his
12:30 AM posting


based on Bablu's post of:

Babalú Says: June 27th, 2005 at 12:30 am
Concerned: No, I guess he is head of some local official corps. He is the guy that knows everything and that has been in the house of Babylonians NOT seeking pleasure for himself, so Shango says. So maybe he went to search for Natalee and he is the chief of Polis.


Shango confirms this again when responding to Drax:

Shango on June 27th, 2005 11:01 pm
The Drax asks a question for which he already provided an answer.

who posted:

drax on June 27th, 2005 10:57 pm
DirtyHand has walked through the maze:…is DirtyHand Poppa VDS?

At know time did Shango provide an affirmative response to the question of Dirty Hand expect to Babalu.

From reading your selection of Shango comments and related responses,

First, we have that Babalu was a clueless, wild guesser.

Second, we have Shango prompting readers to think that Babalu, the clueless guesser, finally figured out what he was trying to convey.  Babalu “determined” one or more of the following:

-   Dirty Hand is head of some “official corps”.
-   Dirty Hand knows everything.
-   Dirty Hand has been in the house of Babylonians not seeking pleasure for himself.
-   Dirty Hand maybe went to search for Natalee at the house of Babylonians.
-   Dirty hand is the “Chief of Polis”.

Third, we have Shango confirming Drax that DirtyHand is poppa VDS.

For all practical purposes, from Shango’s responses we may have concluded that he meant that the house of Babylonians is a place where people in Aruba seek pleasure, but Dirty Hand didn’t, because he just went there looking for Natalee.  But the generality -including myself- chose to infer at that moment in time that “Dirty Hand is the Chief of Polis” and “Poppa VDS” is Poppa Van der Straten.  These two choices fitted the story better as most of us saw it back then.

Shango was mocking Simian and making fools out of us information avid posters.